If your formula about the Armor Penetration is correct, then clearly the Ability Scores that can increase the "resistance ignored" stat are worthless.
Let me explain myself : Armor Penetration Rating is, as far as I can tell, the most rewarding stat in the game. It directly increases your overall damage as long as you don't exceed mobs' mitigation.
So a flat increase in the Armor Penetration % is a complete waste : it's much better to get a flat increase in crit % and then gem your stuff for ArPen. You'll get more overall damage and less DR this way...
I really hoped that these Ability Scores would decrease mitigation AFTER the Armor Penetration Rating is applied, and thus have the possibility to put mitigation into negative values.
That would make sense (the terminology used is "resistance ignored" after all, not armor penetration) and be balanced with other Ability Scores...
Freehugs are you quite sure it doesn't work that way ? If you're sure then many threads about GWF secondary Ability Scores will be closed here and now.
Yeah the first thing I did was hit a target dummy to see if the mitigation could be dropped below 0. Since their mitigation is 0 to start with so it's an easy test. Then I went and hit a low level target in Blacklake, they mitigated no damage but also too no extra over the base damage.
Finally I found a tough enemy and hit it with an attack that works with ArP and an attack that doesn't. The mitigation difference between the two was exactly my Dex bonus (was testing with a Guardian Fighter).
Your enemies in PvE have mitigation ranging from 12.8% (e.g. archer trash mobs) to 24% (e.g. all bosses), so how much Armor Penetration do you need?
I've been wondering the opposite... how much armor pen do mobs have when hitting me? How much defense do I need to counter?
As a CW, I have little defense. I have noticed other CW's don't even bother with defense, because it's so low, they just stack +HP instead. Right now, I have about 1500 defense. If t2 mobs have more armor pen (or whatever the equivalent), then I'll just forget about loading defense, and go for +HP, or some other stat.
Recovery mean in my opinion = Cooldown/(1+Recovery%). So 100% lesser cooldown with recovery/int mean only 10s CD = 5s CD @TE Can i link your thread in the german forum and translate it? Because you make it so detailed and it have a lot of information, which is missed in german Forum. =(
Do they have to beat the same amount of Mitigation as us ? Do they follow the same curves for stat effects ?
No idea sorry Moonba, to my knowledge nobody has tested them. I'd expect that they need to overcome Armor Penetration just as players do, but I don't think their stats work in entirely the same way. A developer once said that companion stats scaled in some way in relation to the players level and the targets level.
I've been wondering the opposite... how much armor pen do mobs have when hitting me? How much defense do I need to counter?
To my knowledge mobs have no Armor Penetration, but I don't know of anyone who's made an effort to test it. I might investigate this soon when I look at mitigation buff scaling.
@TE Can i link your thread in the german forum and translate it? Because you make it so detailed and it have a lot of information, which is missed in german Forum. =(
Yes I'm happy for you to copy and translate this info, so long as you let me know about any really interesting testing that you find on the German forums. ^_^
If you need me to expand on what something means let me know.
Last I heard on this was that it does work but does not show on your character screen. To test it you have to get hit and look at the numbers in the combat log. For example a 3000 damage hit will show as either:
1650 (3000), which is (3000-1650)/3000 = 45% mitigation
Or
1448 (3000), which is (3000-1448)/3000 = 51.7% mitigation
Try it and see!
Tried it, and yes it does work. However, Im not sure it works fully to the formula. According to the numbers I'm getting 47% when, on your formula once again, I should be getting ~50%. I'll do some more testing with more/less defense and see what happens.
Also, I dont suppose you, or anyone, has done any testing with Guard Meter % stuff?? All I know at the moment is that the Shield Talent class ability, doesnt seem to affect it at all .
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sipylusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
freehugs9 - is the information wanted list on the front page up to date ? I have the parser installed and more than one 60 of each class, more than happy to help out with any data requirements.
I'll start looking at regen amounts tonight after work on my DC.
freehugs9 - is the information wanted list on the front page up to date?
As blahblahsean said, I've got regen covered but Life Steal and Movement I've only got up to about 1500. I've found with most stats that amounts up to 3000 or 4000 help refine the formula. If you're collecting power and weapon coefficients, it's important that you also note down your damage improving stat e.g. Strength for Fighters, the number of points you have in each ability, and any feats you have that affect the ability.
Tried it, and yes it does work. However, Im not sure it works fully to the formula....
...I dont suppose you, or anyone, has done any testing with Guard Meter % stuff??
Great let me know what you find.
Guard Meter, none that I'm aware of. Does the amount of blocked damage show in the combat log? If so I imagine it's possible to test, but it wont be easy because there's no way to see the numbers on the meter itself.
I'd really like to know if your damage reduction or health pool is improving the amount that can be blocked.
People say that Shield Talent doesn't work but who tested it and how? Don't believe something just because a lot of people say it. people keep saying that Armor Specialization doesn't work but it does, and they keep saying that 22% is the Armor Penetration cap, but it's not.
Armour specialization has been fixed as of balance patch, is working now
Shield talent is tricky one to prove, I believe its like the ability score feats and only adds a % of a % sadly thiers no real way to test this because you can see the absorbed damage but the block and they messed with the guard last patch again to tweak the absorb on big hits so dats collection has to start from scratch again
So now that armor specialization is working (presumably), how does it apply?
Like this (assuming 3 points in the feat for +15% AC/defense):
(AC*1.15-10)*.5 = damage reduction from AC
Or like this:
(AC-10)*1.15*.5 = damage reduction from AC
My guess is it would be the second one if the feat functions exactly like the tooltip describes (i.e., it increases the 'effectiveness' (damage reduction) of AC by 15% instead of increasing AC by 15%).
Is this correct?
If so, then the final formula for damage reduction from AC would be:
(AC_gear + AC_Feats -10)*(1+AC_multiplier)*.5
Where,
AC_gear = AC from gear
AC_feat = AC from feats such as Shield Defense (GF feat)
AC_multiplier = Armor Specialization as decimal (e.g., 3 points = .15)
Freehugs9, poke me on Mindflayer whenever you have time.
I'd love to have a chat with you regarding this post and more about the statistics.
Name: Arturia Pendragon
Great let me know what you find.
Guard Meter, none that I'm aware of. Does the amount of blocked damage show in the combat log? If so I imagine it's possible to test, but it wont be easy because there's no way to see the numbers on the meter itself.
I'd really like to know if your damage reduction or health pool is improving the amount that can be blocked.
People say that Shield Talent doesn't work but who tested it and how? Don't believe something just because a lot of people say it. people keep saying that Armor Specialization doesn't work but it does, and they keep saying that 22% is the Armor Penetration cap, but it's not.
I'll test what I can within the next few days when I have time. My initial test (before the balance patch) I tested with Shield Talent and Indomitable Armor for a total of 35% more Guard Meter, but it seemed like it reduced it by the same amount on hits. I know the combat log shows the damage you take then shows the damage absorbed by the Guard.
For example you take 500 (1000) damage, then you block 1000 (500) damage. Something like that. I know the damage/resist numbers are swapped between the two. Unfortunately it doesnt show how much guard is depleted, have to just go by visual.
I think I'll test out just holding a shield and being naked and see what happens, then go full armored up and see what happens. If its the same then I guess Damage Resistance doesnt affect Guard at all.
Update 2013-6-26: Confirmed that spells and affects that improve defense stack additively to your damage reduction e.g. 30% Defense on a Cleric + 11% from feated Foresight + 30% from Hallowed Ground = 71% mitigation.
Added a formula to show the additive nature of Critical Severity bonuses.
Hokyin I'm pretty sure Steely Defense is 20% of your Defense score where Armor Specialization improves the effectiveness of Defense, not the amount. So not likely, but I haven't tested it.
Well, In my testing I've found out that +% to Guard Meter doesn't currently work. I've tested wearing equipment for +0%, and for +35% (Shield Talent, +15, Indomitable Warrior (PVP) Armor, +20%). I found 5 mobs with each and the different in damage blocked between the 2 was less then 300 damage (With the 0% actually blocking more ironically).
Not sure if this is relavent to this post since it doesn't involve a formula, but since I mentioned it earlier, thought I'd follow it up.
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torquedsoulMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Other than that, collecting lots of data and plugging in numbers until they worked. I tried doing the same with the level constant but it's super hard and not important enough for the effort. You don't need to min/max your level 10 GWF.
I did attempt to fit the curve for your level constant if for no other reason than completion sake. I only had 4 data points to work from but I did manage to come up with a curve that works for those or points. I had to estimate the lower level constants but the curve is pretty close at the moment.
anyway here is the formula for the curve and the data points I used.
If anyone has a level constant from level 5-15 they would help in fitting a more accurate curve.
After rereading the initial post I realized that there is a different level constant for each stat ... so I think I will retire from looking for these. The above is only for crit.
Hi torqued soul, tough isn't it? A have some old lower level data so I'll have a look, but I suspect that the constant at the start of each formula also scales slightly with level which makes it painfully complex. I'd love to have the complete formulas though.
Well, In my testing I've found out that +% to Guard Meter doesn't currently work. I've tested wearing equipment for +0%, and for +35% (Shield Talent, +15, Indomitable Warrior (PVP) Armor, +20%). I found 5 mobs with each and the different in damage blocked between the 2 was less then 300 damage (With the 0% actually blocking more ironically).
Not sure if this is relavent to this post since it doesn't involve a formula, but since I mentioned it earlier, thought I'd follow it up.
It is interesting though. ^_^
We're you looking at the mitigated damage, or unmitigated? I did a test yesterday that suggests that the amount blocked is the mitigated amount.
tested on a GF:
recovery rating: 1064
inteligence: 13
following your formula I've found:
recharge speed bonus: 12,12% (perfect)
but when applying to the powers he use, I've had the following problem:
lunging strike: CD reduced from 8sec to 7,1sec (ok)
enforced threat: CD reduced from 15sec to 13,2sec (ok) frontline surge: CD reduced from 18sec to 17,8sec (NOT OK)
are there different constants per ability or is there something I'm missing?
Comments
Let me explain myself : Armor Penetration Rating is, as far as I can tell, the most rewarding stat in the game. It directly increases your overall damage as long as you don't exceed mobs' mitigation.
So a flat increase in the Armor Penetration % is a complete waste : it's much better to get a flat increase in crit % and then gem your stuff for ArPen. You'll get more overall damage and less DR this way...
I really hoped that these Ability Scores would decrease mitigation AFTER the Armor Penetration Rating is applied, and thus have the possibility to put mitigation into negative values.
That would make sense (the terminology used is "resistance ignored" after all, not armor penetration) and be balanced with other Ability Scores...
Freehugs are you quite sure it doesn't work that way ? If you're sure then many threads about GWF secondary Ability Scores will be closed here and now.
EDIT : Nevermind. I just saw you other thread here :http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?358391-Con-(GWF)-and-Dex-(GF)-are-now-addative-to-Armor-Penetration
So my question is already answered. Dex all the way guys !
Finally I found a tough enemy and hit it with an attack that works with ArP and an attack that doesn't. The mitigation difference between the two was exactly my Dex bonus (was testing with a Guardian Fighter).
Do they have to beat the same amount of Mitigation as us ? Do they follow the same curves for stat effects ?
I've been wondering the opposite... how much armor pen do mobs have when hitting me? How much defense do I need to counter?
As a CW, I have little defense. I have noticed other CW's don't even bother with defense, because it's so low, they just stack +HP instead. Right now, I have about 1500 defense. If t2 mobs have more armor pen (or whatever the equivalent), then I'll just forget about loading defense, and go for +HP, or some other stat.
Thanks
@TE Can i link your thread in the german forum and translate it? Because you make it so detailed and it have a lot of information, which is missed in german Forum. =(
That's right:
Encounter Ability Cooldown Time = InitialCooldownTime/(1+StatBonus+FeatBonus+0.36*Recovery^1.5/(LevelConstant+Recovery^1.5))
No idea sorry Moonba, to my knowledge nobody has tested them. I'd expect that they need to overcome Armor Penetration just as players do, but I don't think their stats work in entirely the same way. A developer once said that companion stats scaled in some way in relation to the players level and the targets level.
To my knowledge mobs have no Armor Penetration, but I don't know of anyone who's made an effort to test it. I might investigate this soon when I look at mitigation buff scaling.
Yes I'm happy for you to copy and translate this info, so long as you let me know about any really interesting testing that you find on the German forums. ^_^
If you need me to expand on what something means let me know.
Tried it, and yes it does work. However, Im not sure it works fully to the formula. According to the numbers I'm getting 47% when, on your formula once again, I should be getting ~50%. I'll do some more testing with more/less defense and see what happens.
Also, I dont suppose you, or anyone, has done any testing with Guard Meter % stuff?? All I know at the moment is that the Shield Talent class ability, doesnt seem to affect it at all
I'll start looking at regen amounts tonight after work on my DC.
I'm fairly certain he no longer needs regeneration amounts as the constant in the formula no longer has a range (meaning it's almost 100% accurate).
I also sent him my regeneration numbers up to ~3900 regen a few days ago:
As blahblahsean said, I've got regen covered but Life Steal and Movement I've only got up to about 1500. I've found with most stats that amounts up to 3000 or 4000 help refine the formula. If you're collecting power and weapon coefficients, it's important that you also note down your damage improving stat e.g. Strength for Fighters, the number of points you have in each ability, and any feats you have that affect the ability.
Great let me know what you find.
Guard Meter, none that I'm aware of. Does the amount of blocked damage show in the combat log? If so I imagine it's possible to test, but it wont be easy because there's no way to see the numbers on the meter itself.
I'd really like to know if your damage reduction or health pool is improving the amount that can be blocked.
People say that Shield Talent doesn't work but who tested it and how? Don't believe something just because a lot of people say it. people keep saying that Armor Specialization doesn't work but it does, and they keep saying that 22% is the Armor Penetration cap, but it's not.
Armour specialization has been fixed as of balance patch, is working now
Shield talent is tricky one to prove, I believe its like the ability score feats and only adds a % of a % sadly thiers no real way to test this because you can see the absorbed damage but the block and they messed with the guard last patch again to tweak the absorb on big hits so dats collection has to start from scratch again
Like this (assuming 3 points in the feat for +15% AC/defense):
(AC*1.15-10)*.5 = damage reduction from AC
Or like this:
(AC-10)*1.15*.5 = damage reduction from AC
My guess is it would be the second one if the feat functions exactly like the tooltip describes (i.e., it increases the 'effectiveness' (damage reduction) of AC by 15% instead of increasing AC by 15%).
Is this correct?
If so, then the final formula for damage reduction from AC would be:
(AC_gear + AC_Feats -10)*(1+AC_multiplier)*.5
Where,
AC_gear = AC from gear
AC_feat = AC from feats such as Shield Defense (GF feat)
AC_multiplier = Armor Specialization as decimal (e.g., 3 points = .15)
I'd love to have a chat with you regarding this post and more about the statistics.
Name: Arturia Pendragon
I'll test what I can within the next few days when I have time. My initial test (before the balance patch) I tested with Shield Talent and Indomitable Armor for a total of 35% more Guard Meter, but it seemed like it reduced it by the same amount on hits. I know the combat log shows the damage you take then shows the damage absorbed by the Guard.
For example you take 500 (1000) damage, then you block 1000 (500) damage. Something like that. I know the damage/resist numbers are swapped between the two. Unfortunately it doesnt show how much guard is depleted, have to just go by visual.
I think I'll test out just holding a shield and being naked and see what happens, then go full armored up and see what happens. If its the same then I guess Damage Resistance doesnt affect Guard at all.
Added a formula to show the additive nature of Critical Severity bonuses.
There's something weird here, most noticeably with Armor Penetration (black). Does it really give less gain at lower values?
Yes, it does.
Exponent.
/10char
Well, In my testing I've found out that +% to Guard Meter doesn't currently work. I've tested wearing equipment for +0%, and for +35% (Shield Talent, +15, Indomitable Warrior (PVP) Armor, +20%). I found 5 mobs with each and the different in damage blocked between the 2 was less then 300 damage (With the 0% actually blocking more ironically).
Not sure if this is relavent to this post since it doesn't involve a formula, but since I mentioned it earlier, thought I'd follow it up.
I did attempt to fit the curve for your level constant if for no other reason than completion sake. I only had 4 data points to work from but I did manage to come up with a curve that works for those or points. I had to estimate the lower level constants but the curve is pretty close at the moment.
anyway here is the formula for the curve and the data points I used.
23, 4485
32, 6560
40, 8110
60, 10180
y=(a/(1+b*e^(c*x)))+d
a: 11991.610593
b: 6.968574
c: -0.078497
d: -1102
If anyone has a level constant from level 5-15 they would help in fitting a more accurate curve.
After rereading the initial post I realized that there is a different level constant for each stat ... so I think I will retire from looking for these. The above is only for crit.
It is interesting though. ^_^
We're you looking at the mitigated damage, or unmitigated? I did a test yesterday that suggests that the amount blocked is the mitigated amount.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
tested on a GF:
recovery rating: 1064
inteligence: 13
following your formula I've found:
recharge speed bonus: 12,12% (perfect)
but when applying to the powers he use, I've had the following problem:
lunging strike: CD reduced from 8sec to 7,1sec (ok)
enforced threat: CD reduced from 15sec to 13,2sec (ok)
frontline surge: CD reduced from 18sec to 17,8sec (NOT OK)
are there different constants per ability or is there something I'm missing?