Disappointing class changes prior to launch. This really needs to change. It's what I run, but I find it honestly boring as hell and the lack of options ridiculous.
To the OP, play how you want. Someday I hope the game goes in this direction, and GFs will no longer simply be DPS with heavy armor. Reminds me of GW2. Everyone specs DPS and the only difference is what "class" their armor is.
Ugh, hesitantly agreed. I just put on the Knight Captain's set and a few HP/Def/Deflect rings and "tanked" Mad Dragon with a Conqueror build. I was second in damage (first was another GF with Power/ArP/Crit equips, he dealt 1 million damage more). It was fun! I mean, post-patch blocking is awesome, red zones are quite forgiving and the block doesn't randomly fail to activate. You can hold aggro and you're sturdy and you Captain-buff and disable mobs and...
Y'know... tanky stuff. I've almost forgotten what it's like with all the DPS-build mayhem in PvP.
However, with 3,000 Def/1000 Deflect, I had DR 45% and Deflect Chance 15%. I sincerely don't see what you could gain by having 10% better DR/Deflect that would be worth sacrificing the multiple +15% damage bonuses and 2,000 Power from the Conqueror path. The incentive just isn't there! A "support tank" that gives bonuses to the party would be fine if he didn't take up one spot that could have been filled by a DPS-er.
It's a general game design issue, unfortunately. "A good offence is the best defence" is way too true in NW, and there aren't alternative ways to deal with mobs than to just burn them down; i.e., there are no mobs vulnerable only to magic, or to backstab damage, or invulnerable except when they're prone, dazed, or marked. Plus, "elites" have ten billion HP. If that weren't the case, there would be a legit reason to approach encounters in any way other than "deal the maximum amount of damage possible."
Like I and others have repeatedly said there is nothing wrong with it. In fact a build like this makes success on a pug much more likely since it helps people who are undergeared or just poorly play their class.
But as snschl has pointed out the build doesn't gain that much of a boost in survive ability but the buffs your putting up doesn't actually make up for the amount of damage another DPS in your spot would have done. That is why in those more experienced groups the DPS build is preferred. It just goes faster and the rest of the groups just don't need you to actually hold all the trash since they get blitz or controlled.
The mechanics are against us since really any instant kill damage is avoidable and doesn't need to be tanked in any way.
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toughguylolMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'm just saying that I don't understand why people want to hop on Neverwinter and say to themselves "I want to do damage, let's go with the Guardian Fighter. Clearly this class is meant for raw DPS!"
It's not really the way I want them to, it's the way they are meant to be played in traditional sense. If a tank could do as much damage as a damage-dealer role, we would all be playing that tank class. I've seen it done, and it irks me, for sure. Does that make more sense?
EDIT: Hold on, just saw this:
"if you dont spec conq you're deadweight in a party, period
there's no content that needs a tank and by going tanky all you're doing is slowing your party's potential progession"
Is someone not playing Guardian Fighter the way you think is best?
Nom nom, irony.
Every class in this game besides DC is considered DPS, because you dont need a tank for anything. Therefore, Guardian fighter is DPS.
If you play Guardian fighter as a Tank you can be replaced by a TR or a CW and a run will go much faster
I dont understand why you're having such a hard time understanding that lol
This build will have a clear time slower than any Conq GF, and clear time is everything. Sure pat yourself on the back for having a unique build, yay you, but again, why are people taking you in that run anyway lol.
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mercenaryiiiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Every class in this game besides DC is considered DPS, because you dont need a tank for anything. Therefore, Guardian fighter is DPS.
If you play Guardian fighter as a Tank you can be replaced by a TR or a CW and a run will go much faster
I dont understand why you're having such a hard time understanding that lol
This build will have a clear time slower than any Conq GF, and clear time is everything. Sure pat yourself on the back for having a unique build, yay you, but again, why are people taking you in that run anyway lol.
I've clearly already responded to this type of post previously. Here:
"Basically what happens end-game is that people want to do speed runs and which entails pushing out DPS in every possible way (while still surviving). When people reach this point, they stop caring about anything other than the meta build that can provide this. The game becomes a grind, they end up complaining about the repetitiveness, so on and so forth. When people trash talk this build, they forget to mention they are trying to maximize speed run efficiency so that they can become bored of the game faster. *Meanwhile, people like to be diverse in their builds or play their own way.*
At any rate, I do agree that groups can manage without a tank in most instances. This doesn't mean that it should stay this way. It will be up to Cryptic to change mechanics of dungeons and class abilities, among other things, so that the trinity will be the basis for group composition. I'm assuming that is their goal, when observing the descriptions of the Guardian Fighter, Devoted Cleric, Great Weapon Fighter, etc on the Neverwinter Wiki."
I'm going to continue to play the game how I like, clear content easily, and promote diversity in builds. Is that something you don't agree with? You are starting to sound ridiculous by responding so negatively to anything other than the one-current-meta-build-OMG-nothing-else-exists.
Once again, clear time is not everything to everyone. You have to open your mind and realize that the entire world does not think the exact same way as you, ergo, they do not want to mindlessly do speed runs all day.
Like I and others have repeatedly said there is nothing wrong with it. In fact a build like this makes success on a pug much more likely since it helps people who are undergeared or just poorly play their class.
But as snschl has pointed out the build doesn't gain that much of a boost in survive ability but the buffs your putting up doesn't actually make up for the amount of damage another DPS in your spot would have done. That is why in those more experienced groups the DPS build is preferred. It just goes faster and the rest of the groups just don't need you to actually hold all the trash since they get blitz or controlled.
The mechanics are against us since really any instant kill damage is avoidable and doesn't need to be tanked in any way.
It could be solved if there was no soft cap on defense, so the full tank reaches 70% DR. That would actually be interesting, I might even be tempted into trying it! And such gigantic damage mitigation might actually make a tank feel like a tank, even in PvP. Those lashing blade crits that two-shot you might do 3,000; sure, you can't dish it back, but you can hold a point and harass/knock people on their asses until they leave.
If Cryptic does that, I'd respec to a Protector build in a heartbeat.
This build is not as bad as people seems to believe, while you lose some of your damage, it increases the party damage by almost the same amount.
I think it's important to mention, overall damage is not the issue there. I'd say it makes your tanking less smoother because upgraded cleave rocks, and it gives you more space to add knight valor/challenge/into the fray if it's really needed because you are less dependant on encounter to tank.
My idea there, its not useless to go a support build like this, but it really needs to be buffed so the feats has the same quality as the conqueror build. Animation of the stab need to be improve to give a real chance at protector, and furthermore remove or increase defense cap to make it viable, it's non sense being capped out of it. Right now the idea and the build is not horrible, it just doesn't match conqueror build considering T2 mechanic/requirement period.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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toughguylolMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I've clearly already responded to this type of post previously. Here:
"Basically what happens end-game is that people want to do speed runs and which entails pushing out DPS in every possible way (while still surviving). When people reach this point, they stop caring about anything other than the meta build that can provide this. The game becomes a grind, they end up complaining about the repetitiveness, so on and so forth. When people trash talk this build, they forget to mention they are trying to maximize speed run efficiency so that they can become bored of the game faster. *Meanwhile, people like to be diverse in their builds or play their own way.*
At any rate, I do agree that groups can manage without a tank in most instances. This doesn't mean that it should stay this way. It will be up to Cryptic to change mechanics of dungeons and class abilities, among other things, so that the trinity will be the basis for group composition. I'm assuming that is their goal, when observing the descriptions of the Guardian Fighter, Devoted Cleric, Great Weapon Fighter, etc on the Neverwinter Wiki."
I'm going to continue to play the game how I like, clear content easily, and promote diversity in builds. Is that something you don't agree with? You are starting to sound ridiculous by responding so negatively to anything other than the one-current-meta-build-OMG-nothing-else-exists.
Once again, clear time is not everything to everyone. You have to open your mind and realize that the entire world does not think the exact same way as you, ergo, they do not want to mindlessly do speed runs all day.
So instead of going conq spec, you would go tank spec and force your party to slog through clearing trash for an hour, and intentionally make a run longer than it has to be, for the sake of promoting build diversity?
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mercenaryiiiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So instead of going conq spec, you would go tank spec and force your party to slog through clearing trash for an hour, and intentionally make a run longer than it has to be, for the sake of promoting build diversity?
Not sure how many times I need to repeat myself, but I am not trying to go through the dungeon at lightning speed. Neither is my party. Can you acknowledge this? Or are you just going to keep repeating that same stuff? Once again, not everyone is trying to rush. Maybe if I say it enough...
Not sure how many times I need to repeat myself, but I am not trying to go through the dungeon at lightning speed. Neither is my party. Can you acknowledge this? Or are you just going to keep repeating that same stuff? Once again, not everyone is trying to rush. Maybe if I say it enough...
I agree with you. Though you have to admit, the game isn't making it easy for you. The way things are now, a high Power/Crit/ArP Conqueror build defends just fine by virtue of its targets not living long enough to deal damage. Instead of the tank being a slow, lumbering mob-magnet with near-negligible damage and 90,000 HP (which I'd totally play), we have no outstanding defensive capability - merely above-average.
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toughguylolMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Not sure how many times I need to repeat myself, but I am not trying to go through the dungeon at lightning speed. Neither is my party. Can you acknowledge this? Or are you just going to keep repeating that same stuff? Once again, not everyone is trying to rush. Maybe if I say it enough...
So yes... you are intentionally slowing down your party's progress just for the sake of being a unique snowflake
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mercenaryiiiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I agree with you. Though you have to admit, the game isn't making it easy for you. The way things are now, a high Power/Crit/ArP Conqueror build defends just fine by virtue of its targets not living long enough to deal damage. Instead of the tank being a slow, lumbering mob-magnet with near-negligible damage and 90,000 HP (which I'd totally play), we have no outstanding defensive capability - merely above-average.
Certainly, the current caps on defense and whatnot aren't insane. Cryptic could boost the defensive capabilities of Guardian Fighters by modifying feats and raising certain caps, if that's why some people skip out on builds like these. I suspect they hold back though, due to other classes bringing mitigation to the table, like the Devoted Cleric's Astral Shield. In fact, I bet a significant mitigation nerf to AS would drastically change the way Neverwinter is played in general.
Also, I see toughguylol is a broken record over here, haha. Say something different!
I hate to point this out but currently the tank GWF has better damage reduction and buff effects than the tank build GF. They on the other hand currently suffer as we did with no real threat generation.
I would love to see mechanics that requires actual tanking it is why I play GF. I would also love to see boosts in the utility feats and builds since that is what I prefer to play.
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toughguylolMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Certainly, the current caps on defense and whatnot aren't insane. Cryptic could boost the defensive capabilities of Guardian Fighters by modifying feats and raising certain caps, if that's why some people skip out on builds like these. I suspect they hold back though, due to other classes bringing mitigation to the table, like the Devoted Cleric's Astral Shield. In fact, I bet a significant mitigation nerf to AS would drastically change the way Neverwinter is played in general.
Also, I see toughguylol is a broken record over here, haha. Say something different!
Just out of curiosity, what is the logic behind going a non-optimal build?
Just out of curiosity, what is the logic behind going a non-optimal build?
Why would you want to run slower? The loot is the same, the trash mobs drop the same things, what is there to gain by running slower?
The type of build that that has been posted in this thread is a fun build for some people. You see, people play video games, and they like to have fun in these video games. They play whatever build they like to play, even if it isn't the meta build. These people also aren't in a rush to play their video games.
Yeah it is a fun build with a group that is willing to adapt to it. but sadly not many people are willing to do that in pug groups.
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juguer1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 15Arc User
edited June 2013
I think conq spec fails when you are playing with pugs, like CWs wearing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> gears, they get instakilled after a singularity. This build could lead to slower runs, but better safe than sorry.
Yea this build wont fly in random pugs in enclave...they want a RUSH RUSH RUSH grind. So it might be for groups who need the extra defense up front. Maybe undergeared, not the best players.
Comments
Ugh, hesitantly agreed. I just put on the Knight Captain's set and a few HP/Def/Deflect rings and "tanked" Mad Dragon with a Conqueror build. I was second in damage (first was another GF with Power/ArP/Crit equips, he dealt 1 million damage more). It was fun! I mean, post-patch blocking is awesome, red zones are quite forgiving and the block doesn't randomly fail to activate. You can hold aggro and you're sturdy and you Captain-buff and disable mobs and...
Y'know... tanky stuff. I've almost forgotten what it's like with all the DPS-build mayhem in PvP.
However, with 3,000 Def/1000 Deflect, I had DR 45% and Deflect Chance 15%. I sincerely don't see what you could gain by having 10% better DR/Deflect that would be worth sacrificing the multiple +15% damage bonuses and 2,000 Power from the Conqueror path. The incentive just isn't there! A "support tank" that gives bonuses to the party would be fine if he didn't take up one spot that could have been filled by a DPS-er.
It's a general game design issue, unfortunately. "A good offence is the best defence" is way too true in NW, and there aren't alternative ways to deal with mobs than to just burn them down; i.e., there are no mobs vulnerable only to magic, or to backstab damage, or invulnerable except when they're prone, dazed, or marked. Plus, "elites" have ten billion HP. If that weren't the case, there would be a legit reason to approach encounters in any way other than "deal the maximum amount of damage possible."
But as snschl has pointed out the build doesn't gain that much of a boost in survive ability but the buffs your putting up doesn't actually make up for the amount of damage another DPS in your spot would have done. That is why in those more experienced groups the DPS build is preferred. It just goes faster and the rest of the groups just don't need you to actually hold all the trash since they get blitz or controlled.
The mechanics are against us since really any instant kill damage is avoidable and doesn't need to be tanked in any way.
Every class in this game besides DC is considered DPS, because you dont need a tank for anything. Therefore, Guardian fighter is DPS.
If you play Guardian fighter as a Tank you can be replaced by a TR or a CW and a run will go much faster
I dont understand why you're having such a hard time understanding that lol
This build will have a clear time slower than any Conq GF, and clear time is everything. Sure pat yourself on the back for having a unique build, yay you, but again, why are people taking you in that run anyway lol.
I've clearly already responded to this type of post previously. Here:
"Basically what happens end-game is that people want to do speed runs and which entails pushing out DPS in every possible way (while still surviving). When people reach this point, they stop caring about anything other than the meta build that can provide this. The game becomes a grind, they end up complaining about the repetitiveness, so on and so forth. When people trash talk this build, they forget to mention they are trying to maximize speed run efficiency so that they can become bored of the game faster. *Meanwhile, people like to be diverse in their builds or play their own way.*
At any rate, I do agree that groups can manage without a tank in most instances. This doesn't mean that it should stay this way. It will be up to Cryptic to change mechanics of dungeons and class abilities, among other things, so that the trinity will be the basis for group composition. I'm assuming that is their goal, when observing the descriptions of the Guardian Fighter, Devoted Cleric, Great Weapon Fighter, etc on the Neverwinter Wiki."
I'm going to continue to play the game how I like, clear content easily, and promote diversity in builds. Is that something you don't agree with? You are starting to sound ridiculous by responding so negatively to anything other than the one-current-meta-build-OMG-nothing-else-exists.
Once again, clear time is not everything to everyone. You have to open your mind and realize that the entire world does not think the exact same way as you, ergo, they do not want to mindlessly do speed runs all day.
It could be solved if there was no soft cap on defense, so the full tank reaches 70% DR. That would actually be interesting, I might even be tempted into trying it! And such gigantic damage mitigation might actually make a tank feel like a tank, even in PvP. Those lashing blade crits that two-shot you might do 3,000; sure, you can't dish it back, but you can hold a point and harass/knock people on their asses until they leave.
If Cryptic does that, I'd respec to a Protector build in a heartbeat.
I think it's important to mention, overall damage is not the issue there. I'd say it makes your tanking less smoother because upgraded cleave rocks, and it gives you more space to add knight valor/challenge/into the fray if it's really needed because you are less dependant on encounter to tank.
My idea there, its not useless to go a support build like this, but it really needs to be buffed so the feats has the same quality as the conqueror build. Animation of the stab need to be improve to give a real chance at protector, and furthermore remove or increase defense cap to make it viable, it's non sense being capped out of it. Right now the idea and the build is not horrible, it just doesn't match conqueror build considering T2 mechanic/requirement period.
So instead of going conq spec, you would go tank spec and force your party to slog through clearing trash for an hour, and intentionally make a run longer than it has to be, for the sake of promoting build diversity?
Not sure how many times I need to repeat myself, but I am not trying to go through the dungeon at lightning speed. Neither is my party. Can you acknowledge this? Or are you just going to keep repeating that same stuff? Once again, not everyone is trying to rush. Maybe if I say it enough...
I agree with you. Though you have to admit, the game isn't making it easy for you. The way things are now, a high Power/Crit/ArP Conqueror build defends just fine by virtue of its targets not living long enough to deal damage. Instead of the tank being a slow, lumbering mob-magnet with near-negligible damage and 90,000 HP (which I'd totally play), we have no outstanding defensive capability - merely above-average.
So yes... you are intentionally slowing down your party's progress just for the sake of being a unique snowflake
Certainly, the current caps on defense and whatnot aren't insane. Cryptic could boost the defensive capabilities of Guardian Fighters by modifying feats and raising certain caps, if that's why some people skip out on builds like these. I suspect they hold back though, due to other classes bringing mitigation to the table, like the Devoted Cleric's Astral Shield. In fact, I bet a significant mitigation nerf to AS would drastically change the way Neverwinter is played in general.
Also, I see toughguylol is a broken record over here, haha. Say something different!
I would love to see mechanics that requires actual tanking it is why I play GF. I would also love to see boosts in the utility feats and builds since that is what I prefer to play.
Just out of curiosity, what is the logic behind going a non-optimal build?
Why would you want to run slower? The loot is the same, the trash mobs drop the same things, what is there to gain by running slower?
The type of build that that has been posted in this thread is a fun build for some people. You see, people play video games, and they like to have fun in these video games. They play whatever build they like to play, even if it isn't the meta build. These people also aren't in a rush to play their video games.
Starting to feel like Angela.
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