We went LIVE yesterday. My complaint isn't about 4th Edition D&D. I've discussed that to death elsewhere. My issue is that these are the 4E Classes alphabetically, and by the book they are from. The ones we have access to are yellow and bold:
Game has literally 1/6 of the classes of 4e D&D, and even those only have 1/3 of the paragon paths.
Calling this D&D is like calling a piece of tire rubber a car.
Interesting. So how many classes do you think that the game should include before it becomes D&D?
Interesting. So how many classes do you think that the game should include before it becomes D&D?
I would say the ones in the Player's Handbook would be a good start. But obviously 4 is enough - Because we're LIVE!... I feel like I'm playing D&D now. :rolleyes:
EDIT: Funny that even the *rolleyes* emote ^ makes me look like I'm smiling...
I would say the ones in the Player's Handbook would be a good start. But obviously 4 is enough - Because we're LIVE!... I feel like I'm playing D&D now. :rolleyes:
EDIT: Funny that even the *rolleyes* emote ^ makes me look like I'm smiling...
And I'd fully agree with you, IF we had no guarantees of new classes.
As it is we're more than likely looking at 1-2 new classes every 2-4 months, by this time next year we should have all the classes in the PHB represented with 2 builds for about half of them (I'd say 10-12 builds total)
Now they just have to worry about making it... Wait for it... Wait... D&D. I figure (conservatively) given the cash shop scenario and projected player purchases (doing more math) They'll string you along for at least 2 years on classes. 3 *maybe* to get the thing to work.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Still trying to find a reference to AD in my AD&D Manuals.
And I'd fully agree with you, IF we had no guarantees of new classes.
As it is we're more than likely looking at 1-2 new classes every 2-4 months, by this time next year we should have all the classes in the PHB represented with 2 builds for about half of them (I'd say 10-12 builds total)
That is an absurd proclamation. I'll take that bet, all in.
Before people go off on a pitchfork wielding grognard rampage, consider Cryptic:
Cryptic's habit is to have a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> game and refine it over time as it slowly drains it's playerbase of money. They don't really do much P2W in their outlying games like Champions Online and STO, and they've made a LOT of improvements. (and a lot of mistakes).
That being said, they have repeatedly shown that they launch a game, then refine it heavily. They will probably add more paragon paths, better dungeons, certainly a better end game, and more lore to make it 'closer' to D&D as time goes by.
That being said, prepare to be buried under lockboxes and grinds and most new stuff going into the Z-store.
I think 4th edition was a failed attempt to reach out to the World of Warcraft crowd and while i do see some good in the ruleset i see alot of bad. Every class uses the same rate of advancement, every class has the same chance to hit, best way to describe it is that it feels like its been balanced for pvp.
Now they just have to worry about making it... Wait for it... Wait... D&D. I figure (conservatively) given the cash shop scenario and projected player purchases (doing more math) They'll string you along for at least 2 years on classes. 3 *maybe* to get the thing to work.
Which would be par for the course with D&D MMO's. Took DDO at least 2 years before the monk was added, longer for druids.
Saying that, this game couldn't get away with going the next two years without a Ranger class, and if a new class isn't added relatively soon then it will be an issue.
I think 4th edition was a failed attempt to reach out to the World of Warcraft crowd and while i do see some good in the ruleset i see alot of bad. Every class uses the same rate of advancement, every class has the same chance to hit, best way to describe it is that it feels like its been balanced for pvp.
^THIS!
Neverwinter is D&D in name only.
That's *NOT* Cryptic's fault. It's WoTC for their <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> gaming systems, since they bought out the rights from TSR. Look how many editions they've done since 3.0? 13 years later and they're working on 5.0. Four editions in 13 years. It took 12 years just to get 2nd edition (if you know your D&D lore, you know that Arneson went off to do the "basic" sets, while Gygax did the "Advanced. However, they WERE considered separate entities.) From a publishing perspective, that's *NOT* good.
WotC fell into the same problem Palladium Games did with Rifts and their "Mega-verse." Instead of playing the game, it became a race between players, on who could make the "uber-character", using the 40+ "rulebooks" (feeding the pockets of the publishers, by the way, at your expense) to make the ultimate, MEGA-DAMAGE character! That's why you're seeing people whining, not about the broken feats or powers with their characters, but the fact they don't "do as much damage as class X, so it's not fair."
All this "striker", "leader", "dipsh!t" <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> needs to go away. All this "powers" <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> needs to go away, 'cos it takes away from party balance. "Ha! My Ghetto Fighter has 'Iron Balls of Valor!" "Oh yeah? Well *MY* Wizard has 'Mordenkainen's **** Blasts!" Feats were a good idea and part of the reason why Neverwinter Nights worked so well (also, in case you didn't know NWN started out as a 2nd Edition system, but WoTC FORCED BW to use "3.0", 'cos they needed the support to boost 3rd Edition, as nobody was liking it, as it seemed to convoluted to play), but honestly and I worked for the company, you won't EVER see BioWare touch the D&D franchise ever again. They LOATHE WoTC and their totalitarian, gestapo control over their intellectual property.
The ACTUAL reason you got "4th Edition" from WoTC was one, simple reason:
Pathfinder.
It stripped the 3.5 edition rules down, even more, created new ones that worked more efficiently ("Take 20?" Seriously? Why would you *NOT* "take 20" on *EVERY* skill check, except combat? - Oh wait, that's what everyone DID!) and moved it more towards the original ideas from TSR. Eventually, more people were playing Pathfinder than Vanilla D&D and buying books explicitly for Pathfinder. WoTC started losing money, due to their open-sourcing "D20 system", allowing anyone to create a game using it, including Pathfinder stuff, which they had no IP control over.
So, WoTC did want *EVERY* good corporation does and completely re-wrote the rules, butchering them, to where they're completely incompatible with previous version, without major modifications and closed sourced the ruleset, prevent other companies, like Paizo, from making money basing works of their IP (something they claimed at the beginning they "wanted" to do, which is why we have so many <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> rpgs out there using the D20 system.)
There's a REASON they hired Ed Greenwood to edit 5th edition.....
Then there's the Foundry... the one thing that Neverwinter might have done right, and it's the one thing I couldn't possibly care less about. Cryptic doesn't need to create content now, enabling them to be even more lazy than they were before. "Just let the players make the game, we'll charge them for it too." -- gigat
I wouldn't say that. Star Trek Online has had the Foundry for ages, and it didn't stop Cryptic from making more story content for that game; in fact they've just released their biggest update to it just recently.
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hitkillMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Bioware and Obsidian should be offended that this game was allowed to carry the same namesake they worked so hard to make into a true online D&D game. This is an obviously incomplete, very run-of-the-mill MMO that borrows some basic D&D terminology, and has the audacity to call itself Neverwinter. And now we're happy enough with it that we have gone LIVE yesterday!? Really......
Rizogue
Biowore shouldn't be offended with anything, they should just go under their bed and cry (star Wars and Mass Effect fans will understand) xD
and Cryptic is working with the D&D publishers in the sense that Cryptic can develop lore and equips for the D&D universe and vice-versa
Game has literally 1/6 of the classes of 4e D&D, and even those only have 1/3 of the paragon paths.
Calling this D&D is like calling a piece of tire rubber a car.
this is like saing that your wife just had a boy but it is disappointing that he still can't drive and work, and so, he is not male or even human... the game launched june 20, 3 days... and btw, Neverwinter is NOT restricted to the 4e rules
"Neverwinter is a true Dungeons & Dragons experience, brought to life with the dynamic Cryptic game engine." Really?
I playing this RPG since it was AD&D, I played Baldur's Gate, Pool of Radiance and even Neverwinter Nights, and I must say I expected more loyalty to D&D. Why Guardian Fighter and Great Weapon Fighter? In D&D there is only one class "Fighter". We will have two Rangers too? Or two Druids?
In my view this was a big mistake, because in addition to limiting the gameplay, distorted a basic concept of D&D. Sad...
If i wanted a real D&D experience i wouldn't play a computer game.
If i wanted a real D&D experience i wouldn't play a computer game.
Well, only yesterday I had my D&D pnp evening (still 3.5, the support for a transition dwindles with every week) and after a night of constant near-(perma)death, touching moments and roaring laughter, I still want my share of colourful 3D dungeons with combats in real-time today
In case you find my grammar or spelling weird ---> native german speaker
That is one of the downsides, but Eberron was developed with 3.5 in mind, and its adjustment to 4th ed was choppy at best.
Also, to be honest, Forgotten Realms is generally a lot more popular and supported than Eberron, Dark Sun etc. As a somewhat generic setting it will be more easily understandable for newcomers as well.
Then again, DDO also seems to be reducing new Eberron content in favour of Forgotten Realms content. Ugh. :mad:
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abaddon77777Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 7Arc User
Well, only yesterday I had my D&D pnp evening (still 3.5, the support for a transition dwindles with every week) and after a night of constant near-(perma)death, touching moments and roaring laughter, I still want my share of colourful 3D dungeons with combats in real-time today
Lol thats exactly how I feel.
I'm suprised that there are ppl in here who say they know DnD and still expect to get the same experiance from a computer game.
Its a pc game based in the DnD world, which is cool to play around in.
I have no intention AT ALL of offending, but IMO I think too many people take their gaming, and their own opinions on gaming, way too seriously.
Maybe I'm too easy to please (I'm not) but I get real enjoyment from coming across a Intellect Devourer, or Mind Flayer, and fighting a Pit Fiend (Woo!) in an attractive 3D environment. Just treat it as a campaign where only certain classes are allowed or something.
4e blows which is why it is already being ditched by WoTc.
Already? It's had the same lifespan as 3e/3.5e. 3e was released in 2000 and was replaced by 3.5 in 2003, 4e was released in 2008, and we don't have a date for DnDnext. Edition wars are funny, people like to distort the truth.
Each edition has been DnD, they each have been a different version of the same game.
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cujo669Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 27Arc User
edited June 2013
I said it before and I'll keep saying it, this is not D&D it's simply a "Wall Street" simulation of online gold sellers wheeling and dealing all day in the zen/AD exchange.
I am here to roleplay in The Forgotten Realms using D&D rules, as all the hooplah and hype suggested I would be able to before the game was 'released', or 'open for beta testing', or 'live' or all these other terms that everyone else seems to be accustomed to in a free-to-play MMO.
I've not played a Cryptic game before, the last Blizzard game I played was Primal Rage! I did play LOTRO (LOVED), and SWTOR (LOVED), but aside from those two, I am not an MMO player. I am a D&D player. I have played just about every other game based on the D&D franchise, both online and offline, and those are the kind of games I have come to be accustomed to: A LIVE game that comes shipped, fully playable, not one that the hope is that 'within a year from now' it'll be worth a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. No dangling hostage races and classes with price tags in front of customers, no ambiguous proclamations of good things in the future while you are forced to deal with the stuff we gave you now (and constantly have to disable due to being completely and utterly broken...).
I am not impressed, and am desperately working very hard to try to be - this is something I'm not used to having to do in a 'LIVE' game... Well, except Temple of Elemental Evil, which also was really not ready to be declared Live, ever. I'm getting those same feelings of incomplete, untested food for the cash of the masses here.
'Just build it, they will pay...' isn't going to work forever. Listen to your players, not your investors!
That's *NOT* Cryptic's fault. It's WoTC for their <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> gaming systems, since they bought out the rights from TSR. Look how many editions they've done since 3.0? 13 years later and they're working on 5.0. Four editions in 13 years. It took 12 years just to get 2nd edition (if you know your D&D lore, you know that Arneson went off to do the "basic" sets, while Gygax did the "Advanced. However, they WERE considered separate entities.) From a publishing perspective, that's *NOT* good.
WotC fell into the same problem Palladium Games did with Rifts and their "Mega-verse." Instead of playing the game, it became a race between players, on who could make the "uber-character", using the 40+ "rulebooks" (feeding the pockets of the publishers, by the way, at your expense) to make the ultimate, MEGA-DAMAGE character! That's why you're seeing people whining, not about the broken feats or powers with their characters, but the fact they don't "do as much damage as class X, so it's not fair."
All this "striker", "leader", "dipsh!t" <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> needs to go away. All this "powers" <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> needs to go away, 'cos it takes away from party balance. "Ha! My Ghetto Fighter has 'Iron Balls of Valor!" "Oh yeah? Well *MY* Wizard has 'Mordenkainen's **** Blasts!" Feats were a good idea and part of the reason why Neverwinter Nights worked so well (also, in case you didn't know NWN started out as a 2nd Edition system, but WoTC FORCED BW to use "3.0", 'cos they needed the support to boost 3rd Edition, as nobody was liking it, as it seemed to convoluted to play), but honestly and I worked for the company, you won't EVER see BioWare touch the D&D franchise ever again. They LOATHE WoTC and their totalitarian, gestapo control over their intellectual property.
The ACTUAL reason you got "4th Edition" from WoTC was one, simple reason:
Pathfinder.
It stripped the 3.5 edition rules down, even more, created new ones that worked more efficiently ("Take 20?" Seriously? Why would you *NOT* "take 20" on *EVERY* skill check, except combat? - Oh wait, that's what everyone DID!) and moved it more towards the original ideas from TSR. Eventually, more people were playing Pathfinder than Vanilla D&D and buying books explicitly for Pathfinder. WoTC started losing money, due to their open-sourcing "D20 system", allowing anyone to create a game using it, including Pathfinder stuff, which they had no IP control over.
So, WoTC did want *EVERY* good corporation does and completely re-wrote the rules, butchering them, to where they're completely incompatible with previous version, without major modifications and closed sourced the ruleset, prevent other companies, like Paizo, from making money basing works of their IP (something they claimed at the beginning they "wanted" to do, which is why we have so many <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> rpgs out there using the D20 system.)
There's a REASON they hired Ed Greenwood to edit 5th edition.....
These are my thoughts in a nutshell. It does seem like alot of D&D/Pathfinder players are powergamers
These are my thoughts in a nutshell. It does seem like alot of D&D/Pathfinder players are powergamers
I'd say that the real powergamers are still probably the minority, but they do tend to attract attention.
Part of the issue is that most D&D editions have balance issues that can relegate party members to sidekicks or cheerleaders unless the DM warps things to keep them relevant, even without actual powergaming.
Its even technically possible to powergame in 4th ed: its just harder and less extreme.
The issue that I've noticed in DDO is that because the developers have to try to stay close to the PnP rules, it makes balancing the game harder compared to an MMO with no base system. By straying further away from the D&D rules, hopefully NWO is not going to have those issues.
I just find it funny. Everybody has this idea of what AD&D is.... From every edition, it has been different. They have tried different rules sets, patches, rules changes, etc....
And they have had varying degrees of success. Now comes Fifth Edition.
I guess I am trying to say, you can't put AD&D in a corner and label it. Every PnP group plays it differently and each edition has its own feel. 4th Edition is not my favorite either but it appealed to a lot of people....
I am downloading the game now, so soon I will judge for myself how much this is like AD&D. And to be honest, the 4th edition ruleset is probably the best for a MMO, saying it has more MMO balanced rules....
I'd say that the real powergamers are still probably the minority, but they do tend to attract attention.
Part of the issue is that most D&D editions have balance issues that can relegate party members to sidekicks or cheerleaders unless the DM warps things to keep them relevant, even without actual powergaming.
Its even technically possible to powergame in 4th ed: its just harder and less extreme.
The issue that I've noticed in DDO is that because the developers have to try to stay close to the PnP rules, it makes balancing the game harder compared to an MMO with no base system. By straying further away from the D&D rules, hopefully NWO is not going to have those issues.
If you think that the "average" player doesn't try and exploit Wizards of the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>'s version of D&D, somehow you're sorely mistaken. In fact, I would go so far to say that the only people who *DON'T* exploit the rules are people that don't KNOW the rules.
I remember in the mid 90s, running Rifts campaigns, back when they had less than a dozen sourcebooks and people going, "I'm going to create a wizard from Heroes Unlimited, who had a martial art from Ninja and Superspies, uses a magical sword from HU, that was rifted to Rifts Earth from his timeline and since he's a magical creature, he's instantly a mega-damage creature, doing MDC damage with his martial arts, having a magical sword that does MDC and cast spells that are now MDC or SDC damage at his choosing!" All of this was perfectly legal in the Palladium Universe.
Ever since 3rd Edition, D&D suffers from the same problem.
And yes, the developers have to try and stay close to the PnP rules, but those rules, the ones currently being used, are inherently BROKEN! When Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson released the very first D&D in 1974, that wasn't the "first version." They had been working on those rules since !972. Both the first rulebook for AD&D, the Monster Manual and the 1st printing of the Basic Set were both in 1977. That's five YEARS of play-testing on the rules and those rules really didn't change much til 2000.
Seriously, though, do you REALLY think that in 2003, when WoTC released "3.5", they spent the next 5 years working on "4.0?" Of course they didn't, they milked that cash cow for YEARS, until they realized that Paizo and other companies were making MAD money, way more than they were, off of Pathfinder works. Maybe, just maybe, they started on it, in say 2005-6, but in reality, I'd say that WoTC started on the new "ruleset" around 2007, rushing it to a 2008 release, with closed source rules, and ZERO play-testing, or minimal, at best. It was just to cut the heads off the other publishing companies, to stifle their cash flow, which didn't happen, cos thanks to the open license, they can still print whatever they want. I've yet to find a single review that even says that 4E is even any good. Sure some parts of it, they are, but it's all the same thing, "They turned everyone into wizards with all these 'powers.'"
WoTC is a trading card game company. They should have stuck with that. Instead, they didn't. They made D&D a hybrid of M:TG and an MMO. I remember when playing D&D, combat with 10 orcs could be done in 10 minutes, allowing the game to proceed, instead of an hour. I remember when D&D required "pen, paper and imagination" and now it requires, "pen, paper, no imagination, a masters in mathematics, 40 rulebooks and (now) and internet connection."
Comparing Neverwinter to D&D is apples and oranges. The Feats are all wrong, there's no multi-classing, you don't memorize spells, etc. Charisma does "combat advantage damage?" Seriously? "I do an extra 6% damage, due to my dashing, good looks!"
Pssh!
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gdante7111111Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 227Arc User
edited June 2013
From what I have been hearing the earlier d&d are kinda stupid, they could be better in ways this is not. But kinda stupid, also who said there were dwarfs. Which person said dwarfs were real, if a dwarf was real I would just win easy. There were no dwarfs, they should stop putting dwarfs.
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senrathmenruMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 24Arc User
It stripped the 3.5 edition rules down, even more, created new ones that worked more efficiently ("Take 20?" Seriously? Why would you *NOT* "take 20" on *EVERY* skill check, except combat? - Oh wait, that's what everyone DID!) and moved it more towards the original ideas from TSR. Eventually, more people were playing Pathfinder than Vanilla D&D and buying books explicitly for Pathfinder. WoTC started losing money, due to their open-sourcing "D20 system", allowing anyone to create a game using it, including Pathfinder stuff, which they had no IP control over.
Take 20 works the same way in Pathfinder as it does in 3.5, and only a few of the "new" rules are more efficient than 3.5.
Eventually, more people were playing Pathfinder than Vanilla D&D and buying books explicitly for Pathfinder. WoTC started losing money, due to their open-sourcing "D20 system", allowing anyone to create a game using it, including Pathfinder stuff, which they had no IP control over.
So, WoTC did want *EVERY* good corporation does and completely re-wrote the rules, butchering them, to where they're completely incompatible with previous version, without major modifications and closed sourced the ruleset, prevent other companies, like Paizo, from making money basing works of their IP (something they claimed at the beginning they "wanted" to do, which is why we have so many <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> rpgs out there using the D20 system.)
Given that Pathfinder came out after 4th edition, it is impossible for this to be the case.
If you think that the "average" player doesn't try and exploit Wizards of the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>'s version of D&D, somehow you're sorely mistaken. In fact, I would go so far to say that the only people who *DON'T* exploit the rules are people that don't KNOW the rules.
The average players I know that play 3.5, Pathfinder, and/or 4e make characters based entirely on what they think is cool, efficiency be damned.
I remember in the mid 90s, running Rifts campaigns, back when they had less than a dozen sourcebooks and people going, "I'm going to create a wizard from Heroes Unlimited, who had a martial art from Ninja and Superspies, uses a magical sword from HU, that was rifted to Rifts Earth from his timeline and since he's a magical creature, he's instantly a mega-damage creature, doing MDC damage with his martial arts, having a magical sword that does MDC and cast spells that are now MDC or SDC damage at his choosing!" All of this was perfectly legal in the Palladium Universe.
Ever since 3rd Edition, D&D suffers from the same problem.
Guess what? AD&D 2e had similar "problems", with a large number of sourcebooks and dozens of "kits" to pick from.
And yes, the developers have to try and stay close to the PnP rules, but those rules, the ones currently being used, are inherently BROKEN! When Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson released the very first D&D in 1974, that wasn't the "first version." They had been working on those rules since !972. Both the first rulebook for AD&D, the Monster Manual and the 1st printing of the Basic Set were both in 1977. That's five YEARS of play-testing on the rules and those rules really didn't change much til 2000.
Your point is? Different people take different amounts of time to do things.
Seriously, though, do you REALLY think that in 2003, when WoTC released "3.5", they spent the next 5 years working on "4.0?" Of course they didn't, they milked that cash cow for YEARS, until they realized that Paizo and other companies were making MAD money, way more than they were, off of Pathfinder works. Maybe, just maybe, they started on it, in say 2005-6, but in reality, I'd say that WoTC started on the new "ruleset" around 2007, rushing it to a 2008 release, with closed source rules, and ZERO play-testing, or minimal, at best. It was just to cut the heads off the other publishing companies, to stifle their cash flow, which didn't happen, cos thanks to the open license, they can still print whatever they want. I've yet to find a single review that even says that 4E is even any good. Sure some parts of it, they are, but it's all the same thing, "They turned everyone into wizards with all these 'powers.'"
Again, Pathfinder was released after and in response to 4e. If you're going to keep harping on a single point over and over, please do your research first and make sure the statement is accurate.
Comments
Interesting. So how many classes do you think that the game should include before it becomes D&D?
EDIT: Funny that even the *rolleyes* emote ^ makes me look like I'm smiling...
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And I'd fully agree with you, IF we had no guarantees of new classes.
As it is we're more than likely looking at 1-2 new classes every 2-4 months, by this time next year we should have all the classes in the PHB represented with 2 builds for about half of them (I'd say 10-12 builds total)
Now they just have to worry about making it... Wait for it... Wait... D&D. I figure (conservatively) given the cash shop scenario and projected player purchases (doing more math) They'll string you along for at least 2 years on classes. 3 *maybe* to get the thing to work.
That is an absurd proclamation. I'll take that bet, all in.
Cryptic's habit is to have a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> game and refine it over time as it slowly drains it's playerbase of money. They don't really do much P2W in their outlying games like Champions Online and STO, and they've made a LOT of improvements. (and a lot of mistakes).
That being said, they have repeatedly shown that they launch a game, then refine it heavily. They will probably add more paragon paths, better dungeons, certainly a better end game, and more lore to make it 'closer' to D&D as time goes by.
That being said, prepare to be buried under lockboxes and grinds and most new stuff going into the Z-store.
My wizard casts fireball!! +1 to a greater fireburst enchant!!:p(Brought to you by ZEN!! BUY ZEN nao!!)
You aren't very familiar with Cryptic and their history with guarantees and promises, are ya? Would you care to put money on that bet?
Dude, I've played every Cryptic game since CoH and I will gladly take that bet.
Which would be par for the course with D&D MMO's. Took DDO at least 2 years before the monk was added, longer for druids.
Saying that, this game couldn't get away with going the next two years without a Ranger class, and if a new class isn't added relatively soon then it will be an issue.
^THIS!
Neverwinter is D&D in name only.
That's *NOT* Cryptic's fault. It's WoTC for their <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> gaming systems, since they bought out the rights from TSR. Look how many editions they've done since 3.0? 13 years later and they're working on 5.0. Four editions in 13 years. It took 12 years just to get 2nd edition (if you know your D&D lore, you know that Arneson went off to do the "basic" sets, while Gygax did the "Advanced. However, they WERE considered separate entities.) From a publishing perspective, that's *NOT* good.
WotC fell into the same problem Palladium Games did with Rifts and their "Mega-verse." Instead of playing the game, it became a race between players, on who could make the "uber-character", using the 40+ "rulebooks" (feeding the pockets of the publishers, by the way, at your expense) to make the ultimate, MEGA-DAMAGE character! That's why you're seeing people whining, not about the broken feats or powers with their characters, but the fact they don't "do as much damage as class X, so it's not fair."
All this "striker", "leader", "dipsh!t" <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> needs to go away. All this "powers" <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> needs to go away, 'cos it takes away from party balance. "Ha! My Ghetto Fighter has 'Iron Balls of Valor!" "Oh yeah? Well *MY* Wizard has 'Mordenkainen's **** Blasts!" Feats were a good idea and part of the reason why Neverwinter Nights worked so well (also, in case you didn't know NWN started out as a 2nd Edition system, but WoTC FORCED BW to use "3.0", 'cos they needed the support to boost 3rd Edition, as nobody was liking it, as it seemed to convoluted to play), but honestly and I worked for the company, you won't EVER see BioWare touch the D&D franchise ever again. They LOATHE WoTC and their totalitarian, gestapo control over their intellectual property.
The ACTUAL reason you got "4th Edition" from WoTC was one, simple reason:
Pathfinder.
It stripped the 3.5 edition rules down, even more, created new ones that worked more efficiently ("Take 20?" Seriously? Why would you *NOT* "take 20" on *EVERY* skill check, except combat? - Oh wait, that's what everyone DID!) and moved it more towards the original ideas from TSR. Eventually, more people were playing Pathfinder than Vanilla D&D and buying books explicitly for Pathfinder. WoTC started losing money, due to their open-sourcing "D20 system", allowing anyone to create a game using it, including Pathfinder stuff, which they had no IP control over.
So, WoTC did want *EVERY* good corporation does and completely re-wrote the rules, butchering them, to where they're completely incompatible with previous version, without major modifications and closed sourced the ruleset, prevent other companies, like Paizo, from making money basing works of their IP (something they claimed at the beginning they "wanted" to do, which is why we have so many <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> rpgs out there using the D20 system.)
There's a REASON they hired Ed Greenwood to edit 5th edition.....
bravo
finally someone on the forums posts these truths
btw...
this is not sarcasm, i truthfully and willingly applaud methuselas for his post
Well said, methuselas, well said!
I wouldn't say that. Star Trek Online has had the Foundry for ages, and it didn't stop Cryptic from making more story content for that game; in fact they've just released their biggest update to it just recently.
Biowore shouldn't be offended with anything, they should just go under their bed and cry (star Wars and Mass Effect fans will understand) xD
and Cryptic is working with the D&D publishers in the sense that Cryptic can develop lore and equips for the D&D universe and vice-versa
this is like saing that your wife just had a boy but it is disappointing that he still can't drive and work, and so, he is not male or even human... the game launched june 20, 3 days... and btw, Neverwinter is NOT restricted to the 4e rules
if you read the content you already downloaded and see that there are files about the ranger and the new race, I wouldn't bet if I were you '-'
If i wanted a real D&D experience i wouldn't play a computer game.
Well, only yesterday I had my D&D pnp evening (still 3.5, the support for a transition dwindles with every week) and after a night of constant near-(perma)death, touching moments and roaring laughter, I still want my share of colourful 3D dungeons with combats in real-time today
Also, to be honest, Forgotten Realms is generally a lot more popular and supported than Eberron, Dark Sun etc. As a somewhat generic setting it will be more easily understandable for newcomers as well.
Then again, DDO also seems to be reducing new Eberron content in favour of Forgotten Realms content. Ugh. :mad:
Lol thats exactly how I feel.
I'm suprised that there are ppl in here who say they know DnD and still expect to get the same experiance from a computer game.
Its a pc game based in the DnD world, which is cool to play around in.
I have no intention AT ALL of offending, but IMO I think too many people take their gaming, and their own opinions on gaming, way too seriously.
Maybe I'm too easy to please (I'm not) but I get real enjoyment from coming across a Intellect Devourer, or Mind Flayer, and fighting a Pit Fiend (Woo!) in an attractive 3D environment. Just treat it as a campaign where only certain classes are allowed or something.
Its a fun game, and its free. Everything is ok.
Already? It's had the same lifespan as 3e/3.5e. 3e was released in 2000 and was replaced by 3.5 in 2003, 4e was released in 2008, and we don't have a date for DnDnext. Edition wars are funny, people like to distort the truth.
Each edition has been DnD, they each have been a different version of the same game.
^ If this were the case, I would not be here.
I am here to roleplay in The Forgotten Realms using D&D rules, as all the hooplah and hype suggested I would be able to before the game was 'released', or 'open for beta testing', or 'live' or all these other terms that everyone else seems to be accustomed to in a free-to-play MMO.
I've not played a Cryptic game before, the last Blizzard game I played was Primal Rage! I did play LOTRO (LOVED), and SWTOR (LOVED), but aside from those two, I am not an MMO player. I am a D&D player. I have played just about every other game based on the D&D franchise, both online and offline, and those are the kind of games I have come to be accustomed to: A LIVE game that comes shipped, fully playable, not one that the hope is that 'within a year from now' it'll be worth a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. No dangling hostage races and classes with price tags in front of customers, no ambiguous proclamations of good things in the future while you are forced to deal with the stuff we gave you now (and constantly have to disable due to being completely and utterly broken...).
I am not impressed, and am desperately working very hard to try to be - this is something I'm not used to having to do in a 'LIVE' game... Well, except Temple of Elemental Evil, which also was really not ready to be declared Live, ever. I'm getting those same feelings of incomplete, untested food for the cash of the masses here.
'Just build it, they will pay...' isn't going to work forever. Listen to your players, not your investors!
Rizogue
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These are my thoughts in a nutshell. It does seem like alot of D&D/Pathfinder players are powergamers
Part of the issue is that most D&D editions have balance issues that can relegate party members to sidekicks or cheerleaders unless the DM warps things to keep them relevant, even without actual powergaming.
Its even technically possible to powergame in 4th ed: its just harder and less extreme.
The issue that I've noticed in DDO is that because the developers have to try to stay close to the PnP rules, it makes balancing the game harder compared to an MMO with no base system. By straying further away from the D&D rules, hopefully NWO is not going to have those issues.
And they have had varying degrees of success. Now comes Fifth Edition.
I guess I am trying to say, you can't put AD&D in a corner and label it. Every PnP group plays it differently and each edition has its own feel. 4th Edition is not my favorite either but it appealed to a lot of people....
I am downloading the game now, so soon I will judge for myself how much this is like AD&D. And to be honest, the 4th edition ruleset is probably the best for a MMO, saying it has more MMO balanced rules....
If you think that the "average" player doesn't try and exploit Wizards of the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>'s version of D&D, somehow you're sorely mistaken. In fact, I would go so far to say that the only people who *DON'T* exploit the rules are people that don't KNOW the rules.
I remember in the mid 90s, running Rifts campaigns, back when they had less than a dozen sourcebooks and people going, "I'm going to create a wizard from Heroes Unlimited, who had a martial art from Ninja and Superspies, uses a magical sword from HU, that was rifted to Rifts Earth from his timeline and since he's a magical creature, he's instantly a mega-damage creature, doing MDC damage with his martial arts, having a magical sword that does MDC and cast spells that are now MDC or SDC damage at his choosing!" All of this was perfectly legal in the Palladium Universe.
Ever since 3rd Edition, D&D suffers from the same problem.
And yes, the developers have to try and stay close to the PnP rules, but those rules, the ones currently being used, are inherently BROKEN! When Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson released the very first D&D in 1974, that wasn't the "first version." They had been working on those rules since !972. Both the first rulebook for AD&D, the Monster Manual and the 1st printing of the Basic Set were both in 1977. That's five YEARS of play-testing on the rules and those rules really didn't change much til 2000.
Seriously, though, do you REALLY think that in 2003, when WoTC released "3.5", they spent the next 5 years working on "4.0?" Of course they didn't, they milked that cash cow for YEARS, until they realized that Paizo and other companies were making MAD money, way more than they were, off of Pathfinder works. Maybe, just maybe, they started on it, in say 2005-6, but in reality, I'd say that WoTC started on the new "ruleset" around 2007, rushing it to a 2008 release, with closed source rules, and ZERO play-testing, or minimal, at best. It was just to cut the heads off the other publishing companies, to stifle their cash flow, which didn't happen, cos thanks to the open license, they can still print whatever they want. I've yet to find a single review that even says that 4E is even any good. Sure some parts of it, they are, but it's all the same thing, "They turned everyone into wizards with all these 'powers.'"
WoTC is a trading card game company. They should have stuck with that. Instead, they didn't. They made D&D a hybrid of M:TG and an MMO. I remember when playing D&D, combat with 10 orcs could be done in 10 minutes, allowing the game to proceed, instead of an hour. I remember when D&D required "pen, paper and imagination" and now it requires, "pen, paper, no imagination, a masters in mathematics, 40 rulebooks and (now) and internet connection."
Comparing Neverwinter to D&D is apples and oranges. The Feats are all wrong, there's no multi-classing, you don't memorize spells, etc. Charisma does "combat advantage damage?" Seriously? "I do an extra 6% damage, due to my dashing, good looks!"
Pssh!
Take 20 works the same way in Pathfinder as it does in 3.5, and only a few of the "new" rules are more efficient than 3.5.
Given that Pathfinder came out after 4th edition, it is impossible for this to be the case.
The average players I know that play 3.5, Pathfinder, and/or 4e make characters based entirely on what they think is cool, efficiency be damned.
Guess what? AD&D 2e had similar "problems", with a large number of sourcebooks and dozens of "kits" to pick from.
Your point is? Different people take different amounts of time to do things.
Again, Pathfinder was released after and in response to 4e. If you're going to keep harping on a single point over and over, please do your research first and make sure the statement is accurate.