i realize this is nothing like the 2nd edition ad&d i played when i was a kid, but it is what it is. its a video game, it can be fun at times, and that is that.
This is the D&D I played as a kid. I'll take Neverwinter any day.
This is the D&D I played as a kid. I'll take Neverwinter any day.
playing those games is what got me started buying the rule books.
0
arontimesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
Seriously, haters, why don't you do a little research before bashing 4e? 4e is a streamlined edition of D&D which takes the focus out of character creation and into tactical combat. 3e and 3.5 had very little depth when it came to combat, especially at higher levels, since it all boils down to whoever wins the Initiative roll. Combat in Third Edition is basically rocket tag, which means that most of the strategy actually comes from your build and insane amounts of preplanning instead of the actual fight.
Mind you, I still play D&D 3.5 to this day, while I no longer play 4e. I am not a Third Edition hater at all. D&D 3.5, due to its unique quirks, is much easier to play through Play-by-Post (PbP) than 4e, which was designed for face-to-face games with a battle grid. I play PnP exclusively online, and 4e is just not practical to play online.
3.5 is also more accessible than 4e because of the d20 SRD (System Resource Document), which is basically the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual, Unearthed Arcana, Expanded Psionics Handbook, and the Epic Level Handbook stripped of flavor text and non-open content, available for free legally at http://www.d20srd.org/. 4e doesn't have a free SRD, which limits its accessibility tremendously.
I feel that 4e would've been more successful had Wizards released a free SRD for it. It didn't have to be the whole heroic to paragon to epic tier content; it could've been just heroic tier and maybe a dash of paragon released for free to entice players into playing the edition and perhaps buying more books.
In the end, 4e was doomed not by its poor gameplay (it's the most balanced and still a very flavorful and immersive edition) but by questionable Executive Meddling by the higher-ups at Wizards of the Coast and its protracted legal problems with Atari (the main licensee for D&D then). As of this point, I've gotten way off topic, so I will go back to how Raise Dead works in D&D 4e.
Here goes:
My comments are in gold. The rest of the text is copied directly from page 311 of the 4e Player's Handbook.
Raise Dead You bend over the body of your slain comrade, applying sacramental unguents. Finally his eyes flutter open as he is restored to life. Level: 8 (This is the minimum level needed to cast the ritual.) Category: Restoration Time: 8 hours (This is how long the ritual takes to cast. If interrupted, you start over again.) Duration: Instantaneous Component Cost: 500 gp (This is how much gold it costs to cast the ritual, whether it's from a ritual book or a scroll.) Market Price: 680 gp (This is the gold cost it takes to learn the ritual, or to scribe the ritual into a scroll.) Key Skill: Heal (no check)
To perform the Raise Dead ritual, you must have a part of the corpse of a creature that died no more than 30 days ago. You apply mystic salves, then pray to the gods to restore the dead creature's life. The subject returns to life as if he or she had taken an extended rest. The subject is freed of any temporary conditions suffered at death, but permanent conditions remain.
The subject returns with a death penalty: -1 to all attack rolls, skill checks, saving throws, and ability checks. This death penalty fades after the subject reaches three milestones. (You reach a milestone every two encounters. Basically, the raised person suffers this penalty for the next six fights.)
You can't restore life to a creature that has been petrified or to a creature that died of old age.
The subject's soul must be free and willing to return to life. Some magical effects trap the soul and thus prevent Raise Dead from working, and the gods can intervene to prevent a soul from journeying back to the realm of the living. In all cases, death is less inclined to return paragon and epic heroes; the component cost is 5,000 gp for paragon tier characters and 50,000 gp for epic tier characters.
Raising party members from the dead basically cuts into your bottom line, and if you're not level 8 yet or you don't have enough money to cast the ritual, you'll either have to create a new character or get yourself indebted to your local church, assuming they will even cast the ritual for you (good luck convincing Doomguides of Kelemvor to cast this ritual).
It's a "subjectively" good or bad mmo, based on a "subjectively" good or bad set of rules for an existing TTRPG and the root of the issues are due to marketing.
Sounds like PWE was the PERFECT *hurhur pun* candidate for making this game, all subjective opinions aside then.
If it were "True" we would have many more classes and more paragon paths per class to choose from. Customization is key to DnD, yet this game has little to none.
I seem to recall playing D&D just fine when all weapons did the exact same 1d6 points of damage, and there were only 6 classes. And no races, Elf and Dwarf were classes.
What you refer to as "character customization" was something added to the game for munchkins who don't know what real roleplaying is about.
I seem to recall playing D&D just fine when all weapons did the exact same 1d6 points of damage, and there were only 6 classes. And no races, Elf and Dwarf were classes.
What you refer to as "character customization" was something added to the game for munchkins who don't know what real roleplaying is about.
I own this set and mine says that
- daggers and slings do 1d4
- swords do 1d8
- doublehanded weapons and polearms do 1d10
But thats the whole point - If I wanted to play something simplier than 3.5, I'd just dig up my old red box (and blue for "expert") or this one from 2003
In case you find my grammar or spelling weird ---> native german speaker
"Neverwinter is a true Dungeons & Dragons experience, brought to life with the dynamic Cryptic game engine." Really?
I playing this RPG since it was AD&D, I played Baldur's Gate, Pool of Radiance and even Neverwinter Nights, and I must say I expected more loyalty to D&D. Why Guardian Fighter and Great Weapon Fighter? In D&D there is only one class "Fighter". We will have two Rangers too? Or two Druids?
In my view this was a big mistake, because in addition to limiting the gameplay, distorted a basic concept of D&D. Sad...
You have to love that Guardian fighters are worse at tanking than leather wearing Rogues..... hail to the almighty AC! What happened to resists? What happened to different types of physical damage (piercing, blunt, slashing)? Clerics are range fighters? What happened to mace and a shield? With 45 years of material to pull from does not seem like there should be a struggle to figure out.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
willsommersMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 103
edited June 2013
Customization is key to DnD, yet this game has little to none.
This, last elder scrolls felt more DnD than Neverwinter (any class any armor, lots of options, etc.), but once I got over the shock I really like the game.
but a cleric without a shield or melee weapons? Really? Why not just call it the subpar medic class?
Ahhh, another thread where people try to define what D&D is and isn't.
The thing is, D&D can't be so easily wrapped up in a convenient definition that all can accept, because D&D means different things to different people.
A lot of it has to do with when a person was first introduced to the game. D&D has varied a lot over time, from the simplicity of the original Basic Edition, to the endless minutia of the 3.x systems.
In one thread, I have seen many say that D&D is about classes and choices. Is it?
In the early days, there was a handful of classes with next to no choices in the generation and development of your character. In many way, it was kind of like this game in the scope of choices, except for the number of spells and casting method.
In the 3.x days, there was an exhausting amount of choices, and the more books you had... which were pumped out at a staggering pace... the more choices you had, such that character sheets ended out looking like high tech schematics.
I'm not familiar with 4th Ed., but have often seen it described as being MMOish in nature.
The game has had radically different approaches over the years, and each of those approaches were described by TSR and then later by WotC as what D&D is.
D&D hasn't always been a role-players snowbank from which each could craft their own special snowflake.
At one time non-humans were treated as a race and class combined.
At one time there were class limits based on race.
At one time there were level limits based on race.
At one time multi-class combinations were very few and racially restricted.
At one time humans couldn't multi-class but could have multiple classes.
At one time no class had skills except the thief and other classes with thief-like abilities.
At one time a first level Magic-User could cast one spell a day, and was happy to have that much.
Over the entire history of D&D the game has been based on limitations for at least as long as it has been based on choice. So, yes, this game is D&D, another new form of D&D, that in some ways harkens back to the earliest forms of D&D. It may not be the D&D you like, or want, or what you wish it to be, but it is D&D.
It's up to you whether you make as much of this form of D&D as you did your favourite form, or not, but don't indulge yourself in the thought that just because you don't like it then it isn't what it is.
0
hitkillMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
is this topic for real? is not D&D because we have to fighters? xD
LOL
topics after a game launch are so amazingly random
Ahhh, another thread where people try to define what D&D is and isn't.
<snip for brevity>
It's up to you whether you make as much of this form of D&D as you did your favourite form, or not, but don't indulge yourself in the thought that just because you don't like it then it isn't what it is.
Excellent post. I remember all of that and how we altered the rules we didn't like or found limiting. At first we did it exactly by the book, but we outgrew that fast and liked to create. We had a couple campaigns where we combined ICE/rolemaster with D&D rules too. D&D and Traveller were our favorites though.
Anyway, I could be playing most any D&D game, but here I am. This is D&D to me.
The devs understood enough about 4e to produce what they have. This may not have been how many of you would have done it, and that is fine. I say get a kickstarter together and make a DnD game the way you want it to be, provided WotC will grant you license.
There are more important issues to address instead of complaining about the creative interpretation of the development staff.
"Neverwinter is a true Dungeons & Dragons experience, brought to life with the dynamic Cryptic game engine." Really?
I playing this RPG since it was AD&D, I played Baldur's Gate, Pool of Radiance and even Neverwinter Nights, and I must say I expected more loyalty to D&D. Why Guardian Fighter and Great Weapon Fighter? In D&D there is only one class "Fighter". We will have two Rangers too? Or two Druids?
In my view this was a big mistake, because in addition to limiting the gameplay, distorted a basic concept of D&D. Sad...
Its in no way an RPG. Its an mmo that has beholders and Mindflayers DnD monsters and locations that are IP of WOTC. These classes are from the failed 4th edition rules. I dont understand why they used these rules since they are working on 5th ed rules rightnow and could of started using those instead 5th ed rules for DnD reaches back to more flavor of 3.5 ed and 3.0 rules. BUt again WOTC didnt actually come out with 5.0 edition beta testing until part of this game was designed.
Bioware and Obsidian should be offended that this game was allowed to carry the same namesake they worked so hard to make into a true online D&D game. This is an obviously incomplete, very run-of-the-mill MMO that borrows some basic D&D terminology, and has the audacity to call itself Neverwinter. And now we're happy enough with it that we have gone LIVE yesterday!? Really......
"Neverwinter is a true Dungeons & Dragons experience, brought to life with the dynamic Cryptic game engine." Really?
I playing this RPG since it was AD&D, I played Baldur's Gate, Pool of Radiance and even Neverwinter Nights, and I must say I expected more loyalty to D&D. Why Guardian Fighter and Great Weapon Fighter? In D&D there is only one class "Fighter". We will have two Rangers too? Or two Druids?
In my view this was a big mistake, because in addition to limiting the gameplay, distorted a basic concept of D&D. Sad...
4th Edition rules. Now you know why some people loathe D&D4th edition. They think it is written to much like playing an MMO. Pretty much every complain you expressed is against the 4th Edition. ::shrug:: You don't have to like it and I think 5th edition is moving back towards the previous versions but like it or not it is D&D.
We went LIVE yesterday. My complaint isn't about 4th Edition D&D. I've discussed that to death elsewhere. My issue is that these are the 4E Classes alphabetically, and by the book they are from. The ones we have access to are yellow and bold:
4th Edition rules. Now you know why some people loathe D&D4th edition. They think it is written to much like playing an MMO. Pretty much every complain you expressed is against the 4th Edition. ::shrug:: You don't have to like it and I think 5th edition is moving back towards the previous versions but like it or not it is D&D.
It's a shell.
0
twisted0utlawMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
This is pathetic, go play something else if you don't like the game.
Game has literally 1/6 of the classes of 4e D&D, and even those only have 1/3 of the paragon paths.
Calling this D&D is like calling a piece of tire rubber a car.
Comments
This is the D&D I played as a kid. I'll take Neverwinter any day.
Feast of the Moon | Rising of the Dark | Shadow of the World | Everdark
w00t! SSI games! ^_^ I had a blast with those... especially after editing my save games LOL.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
playing those games is what got me started buying the rule books.
Mind you, I still play D&D 3.5 to this day, while I no longer play 4e. I am not a Third Edition hater at all. D&D 3.5, due to its unique quirks, is much easier to play through Play-by-Post (PbP) than 4e, which was designed for face-to-face games with a battle grid. I play PnP exclusively online, and 4e is just not practical to play online.
3.5 is also more accessible than 4e because of the d20 SRD (System Resource Document), which is basically the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual, Unearthed Arcana, Expanded Psionics Handbook, and the Epic Level Handbook stripped of flavor text and non-open content, available for free legally at http://www.d20srd.org/. 4e doesn't have a free SRD, which limits its accessibility tremendously.
I feel that 4e would've been more successful had Wizards released a free SRD for it. It didn't have to be the whole heroic to paragon to epic tier content; it could've been just heroic tier and maybe a dash of paragon released for free to entice players into playing the edition and perhaps buying more books.
In the end, 4e was doomed not by its poor gameplay (it's the most balanced and still a very flavorful and immersive edition) but by questionable Executive Meddling by the higher-ups at Wizards of the Coast and its protracted legal problems with Atari (the main licensee for D&D then). As of this point, I've gotten way off topic, so I will go back to how Raise Dead works in D&D 4e.
Here goes:
My comments are in gold. The rest of the text is copied directly from page 311 of the 4e Player's Handbook.
Raising party members from the dead basically cuts into your bottom line, and if you're not level 8 yet or you don't have enough money to cast the ritual, you'll either have to create a new character or get yourself indebted to your local church, assuming they will even cast the ritual for you (good luck convincing Doomguides of Kelemvor to cast this ritual).
Taking a break from Neverwinter indefinitely...
It's a "subjectively" good or bad mmo, based on a "subjectively" good or bad set of rules for an existing TTRPG and the root of the issues are due to marketing.
Sounds like PWE was the PERFECT *hurhur pun* candidate for making this game, all subjective opinions aside then.
Too bad they didn't make it, they just distribute it.
Cryptic made it.
I seem to recall playing D&D just fine when all weapons did the exact same 1d6 points of damage, and there were only 6 classes. And no races, Elf and Dwarf were classes.
What you refer to as "character customization" was something added to the game for munchkins who don't know what real roleplaying is about.
Feast of the Moon | Rising of the Dark | Shadow of the World | Everdark
I own this set and mine says that
- daggers and slings do 1d4
- swords do 1d8
- doublehanded weapons and polearms do 1d10
But thats the whole point - If I wanted to play something simplier than 3.5, I'd just dig up my old red box (and blue for "expert") or this one from 2003
:rolleyes:
Well, at least that makes you half as smart as them. You can function on 1/4, Ive heard, even less to play Neverwinter. <jk>
I agree. Fanboy posts are SOOO much better.
After reading 10 pages of "I LUV D1S GAM3 -1T R3ALLY ROXX !!!" one feels the urge to challenge Viswanathan Anand to a game of chess, right?
You have to love that Guardian fighters are worse at tanking than leather wearing Rogues..... hail to the almighty AC! What happened to resists? What happened to different types of physical damage (piercing, blunt, slashing)? Clerics are range fighters? What happened to mace and a shield? With 45 years of material to pull from does not seem like there should be a struggle to figure out.
This, last elder scrolls felt more DnD than Neverwinter (any class any armor, lots of options, etc.), but once I got over the shock I really like the game.
but a cleric without a shield or melee weapons? Really? Why not just call it the subpar medic class?
The thing is, D&D can't be so easily wrapped up in a convenient definition that all can accept, because D&D means different things to different people.
A lot of it has to do with when a person was first introduced to the game. D&D has varied a lot over time, from the simplicity of the original Basic Edition, to the endless minutia of the 3.x systems.
In one thread, I have seen many say that D&D is about classes and choices. Is it?
In the early days, there was a handful of classes with next to no choices in the generation and development of your character. In many way, it was kind of like this game in the scope of choices, except for the number of spells and casting method.
In the 3.x days, there was an exhausting amount of choices, and the more books you had... which were pumped out at a staggering pace... the more choices you had, such that character sheets ended out looking like high tech schematics.
I'm not familiar with 4th Ed., but have often seen it described as being MMOish in nature.
The game has had radically different approaches over the years, and each of those approaches were described by TSR and then later by WotC as what D&D is.
D&D hasn't always been a role-players snowbank from which each could craft their own special snowflake.
At one time non-humans were treated as a race and class combined.
At one time there were class limits based on race.
At one time there were level limits based on race.
At one time multi-class combinations were very few and racially restricted.
At one time humans couldn't multi-class but could have multiple classes.
At one time no class had skills except the thief and other classes with thief-like abilities.
At one time a first level Magic-User could cast one spell a day, and was happy to have that much.
Over the entire history of D&D the game has been based on limitations for at least as long as it has been based on choice. So, yes, this game is D&D, another new form of D&D, that in some ways harkens back to the earliest forms of D&D. It may not be the D&D you like, or want, or what you wish it to be, but it is D&D.
It's up to you whether you make as much of this form of D&D as you did your favourite form, or not, but don't indulge yourself in the thought that just because you don't like it then it isn't what it is.
LOL
topics after a game launch are so amazingly random
I just find it amusing what the constant complainers are down to crying about.
Anyway, I could be playing most any D&D game, but here I am. This is D&D to me.
Ten pages of happy people pisses you off that much huh?...might want to step back and ask some serious questions then.
Also Magnus Carlsen is correct all modern players are overrated, a Lasker or a Pillsbury would wipe the floor with them.
There are more important issues to address instead of complaining about the creative interpretation of the development staff.
glassdoor.com - Cryptic Studios Review
Its in no way an RPG. Its an mmo that has beholders and Mindflayers DnD monsters and locations that are IP of WOTC. These classes are from the failed 4th edition rules. I dont understand why they used these rules since they are working on 5th ed rules rightnow and could of started using those instead 5th ed rules for DnD reaches back to more flavor of 3.5 ed and 3.0 rules. BUt again WOTC didnt actually come out with 5.0 edition beta testing until part of this game was designed.
Rizogue
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4th Edition rules. Now you know why some people loathe D&D4th edition. They think it is written to much like playing an MMO. Pretty much every complain you expressed is against the 4th Edition. ::shrug:: You don't have to like it and I think 5th edition is moving back towards the previous versions but like it or not it is D&D.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Player's Handbook Classes
Cleric
Fighter
Paladin
Ranger
Rogue
Warlock
Warlord
Wizard
Player's Handbook 2 Classes
Avenger
Barbarian
Bard
Druid
Invoker
Shaman
Sorcerer
Warden
Player's Handbook 3 Classes
Ardent
Battlemind
Monk
Psion
Runepriest
Seeker
Forgotten Realms Player's Guide Class
Swordmage
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It's a shell.
Calling this D&D is like calling a piece of tire rubber a car.
So....speculation is all of a sudden reality?
Also even some of the biggest game detractors think that calling this game a WoW clone is pretty dumb.