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A Level 60 GWFs Assessment of Powers POST PATCH (Devs Read Again)
chudovishye
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First off, for those of you who didn't see my pre-patch discussion, PLEASE READ CAREFULLY BEFORE COMMENTING ON THE BELOW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?323341-A-Level-60-GWFs-Assessment-of-Powers-DEVS-PLEASE-READ
Now then, post-patch, I have to say, I'm pretty happy, honestly. I'm doing great in PvP and PvE. Part of that is, as for any class, teamwork. You can't get by without it. Though I'll agree some classes have a little more oomph in certain ways, such as the CWs push ability in epics, that's pointless without good teamwork. If you want to run a million DDs with a team of CWs pushing everything, go ahead, I don't find that fun. Post-patch I've been finding I handle adds a lot better, I find people running from me more frequently in PvP and not as willing to take me on alone anymore, or even in a group of two, and I like that. So clearly, something has been done, or perhaps I got lucky with my build choices (reminder to new readers, I did NOT read any guides, did it myself, I personally detest guides other than basic reference for things to avoid). Still, here are my assessments of the powers available to the GWF after the patch (please make sure to read through my previous comments):
OVERALL SUGGESTION: I love GWF and I do great, but for many players it's clear, the class STILL needs an overall damage increase to make it as viable to other players as the other classes. To do this, it NEEDS A DAMAGE INCREASE. I feel like I'm doing great dmg, and sure to do more once I complete my item hunt in the near future, but for lower level players we all know this is still a serious issue. The class is, logically, a DPS class. Without this, what is it? Add attacker? Attention-getter in PvP so the rest of the party can capture pillars? What? Needs DPS, that's what it should be. Again, I feel the damage I'm doing is great, but it's mainly because I took the time to figure things out and maximize my potential. Lots of players are having trouble because logical choices, on the surface, are actually horrible failures in the long run. This will likely come in time, based on the hard work I've seen the devs doing, and comparing it to the laughable "work" by the D3 team.
NEW SUGGESTION: Something I've been thinking about for ALL classes, is a way to buff lower-level powers when you reach upper levels. Most of the problems I have with the following GWF powers is they become useless at upper levels because the damage isn't really there anymore to make them worth it and some of the control effects are decent, but minor in comparison to what you see from CWs or DCs. Perhaps there could be a way to increase damage to lower-level powers, like a way to avoid putting points into slots for things you don't want to use but need to slot something in order to increase the power chart. So, perhaps you could make it an option CROSS CLASS to have the ability, say around level 45-50 or so, to increase damage for any power below a certain limit, perhaps 40 or so. I think it would be a great option for lots more workability and build variety. I see, for example, way too many GWFs doing the same tiresome build they read about online. Sure, certain things just work the best, but variety is the spice of a great game when it's possible and viable to try.
Reaping Strike: Completely avoided putting any points above one into this after I respeced. Not going to bother with it. Main issue is still the same for me. Aside from damage, the charge time makes it a complete joke. Waste of time in both PvE and PvP when I can be doing lesser, but more consistent damage to groups of monsters.
Sure Strike: Actually seems worse to me after the patch. I was messing with it before the patch with only TWO points slotted into it, and I was stacking up to 23K+ damage by the final set of three. Post-patch, I found I was doing much less, not sure why. Still won't use this.
Not So Fast: Damage increase is okay, and it's great for the slowdown effect, but it still needs something a little more for higher levels. Tried it a bit post-patch, and it's still one of my favorite attacks, but unless something else is adding along with slowdown, perhaps stun, it's just not enough damage in epics to make it worth it. Perhaps a short stun followed by a slowdown effect? That would make it more useable. It's great at low levels, as I said, but by 60 pretty blah, even with damage increase. Upper level powers essentially negate it's usage.
Spinning Strike: Still a joke. IT'S A DAILY, IT NEEDS A DAMAGE INCREASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.
Mighty Leap: I still like this skill, but I only use it for one reason, and that's infiltrating enemy spawns in PvP to make them suffer. The distance increase was an awesome addition, but I feel something like stun would make it more useful, or a better damage increase. See suggestion above.
Restoring Strike: I'd say this one is fine as-is. Still has distance, which some people don't consider, and it helps survival in PvE.
Avalanche of Steel: I'd say it's okay overall, but still one I rarely use simply because later ones do more damage. The main issue is still that it's way too easy to avoid. The GWF should have constant control of the moving target circle until they hit the ground.
Slam: Still good. Love it.
Takedown: With the changes, I love this now. I use it primarily in PvP just for extra range and the ability to keep an enemy on the ground long enough to end them before they can really get more than a few hits in.
Bravery: I only slotted this one to increase my powers chart. Still don't use it.
Steadfast Determination: Complete waste, didn't even slot it this time. Just get rid of it.
Wicked Strike: Noticeable difference with the damage increase. It could still do just a little better, but with proper feats I find now it stacks awesome if I have enough enemies to attack. I think perhaps 2 or more enemies would be better for the stacking to begin, but I guess 3 makes the most sense.
Roar: Still don't use it, I see plenty of GWFs doing it, likely because of builds they've read, but I find it's a worthless power to put in a slot I could use for straight damage instead. That's what the GWF needs to be, DPS. Read above.
Weapon Master: Didn't even slot it this time. Sorry, crit fans, I tried a crit build about two weeks ago, and I mean STACKED. Sucked. Thus, didn't bother this time around. Unless crit is worked on as a whole, for all classes, I never see myself bothering with it other than by-proxy through itemization. I'm never going to focus on it again otherwise.
Daring Shout: Still dumb.
Flourish: Keep as-is, one of the best GWFs skills. Everyone should use it, and pretty much does. Only complaint is it BUGS at certain times, increasing the cool-down to a whopping 2 minutes! Figure that out, fix it.
Steel Blitz: Still like this one, I use it primarily in PvE.
Weapon Master Strike: Still love this, great for 2 attackers and single attackers, combining with WS for more fun, but I still feel for what it is it should have a slight damage boost. If not, a slightly increased swing speed would make the most sense.
Come and Get It: Still dumb. Sorry, until you make it so the GWF is invulnerable during the entire time the skill starts and the buff lasts, it's just not worth it. One knock-over and it's done, pointless.
Savage Advance: I tried this one again, sorry, the damage is sad. That's all it needs, honestly, but I regret fully slotting this one. Had to put the points somewhere, anyway, but I would have liked to try something else a bit more. NEEDS a damage increase, no question, it's worse than Avalanche of Steel, which comes before it? How is that ****ing possible?
Steel Defense: Still awesome, under-rated.
Battle Fury: Didn't bother with it, still pointless to me, tried it enough to see.
Punishing Charge: Still an absolute joke. Needs a significant damage increase or removed altogether for another power. I don't think I've ever even seen a GWF use this POS.
Indomitable Battle Strike: Still awesome.
Crescendo: Still glitches out, that needs fixed. Can still be broken by certain attacks, which doesn't really make sense to me because of what it is. Damage seems just right.
Steel Grace: Still good.
UNSTOPPABLE BUG: Still there, but luckily it seems to be fixing without relog now. Not sure why or how, though.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?323341-A-Level-60-GWFs-Assessment-of-Powers-DEVS-PLEASE-READ
Now then, post-patch, I have to say, I'm pretty happy, honestly. I'm doing great in PvP and PvE. Part of that is, as for any class, teamwork. You can't get by without it. Though I'll agree some classes have a little more oomph in certain ways, such as the CWs push ability in epics, that's pointless without good teamwork. If you want to run a million DDs with a team of CWs pushing everything, go ahead, I don't find that fun. Post-patch I've been finding I handle adds a lot better, I find people running from me more frequently in PvP and not as willing to take me on alone anymore, or even in a group of two, and I like that. So clearly, something has been done, or perhaps I got lucky with my build choices (reminder to new readers, I did NOT read any guides, did it myself, I personally detest guides other than basic reference for things to avoid). Still, here are my assessments of the powers available to the GWF after the patch (please make sure to read through my previous comments):
OVERALL SUGGESTION: I love GWF and I do great, but for many players it's clear, the class STILL needs an overall damage increase to make it as viable to other players as the other classes. To do this, it NEEDS A DAMAGE INCREASE. I feel like I'm doing great dmg, and sure to do more once I complete my item hunt in the near future, but for lower level players we all know this is still a serious issue. The class is, logically, a DPS class. Without this, what is it? Add attacker? Attention-getter in PvP so the rest of the party can capture pillars? What? Needs DPS, that's what it should be. Again, I feel the damage I'm doing is great, but it's mainly because I took the time to figure things out and maximize my potential. Lots of players are having trouble because logical choices, on the surface, are actually horrible failures in the long run. This will likely come in time, based on the hard work I've seen the devs doing, and comparing it to the laughable "work" by the D3 team.
NEW SUGGESTION: Something I've been thinking about for ALL classes, is a way to buff lower-level powers when you reach upper levels. Most of the problems I have with the following GWF powers is they become useless at upper levels because the damage isn't really there anymore to make them worth it and some of the control effects are decent, but minor in comparison to what you see from CWs or DCs. Perhaps there could be a way to increase damage to lower-level powers, like a way to avoid putting points into slots for things you don't want to use but need to slot something in order to increase the power chart. So, perhaps you could make it an option CROSS CLASS to have the ability, say around level 45-50 or so, to increase damage for any power below a certain limit, perhaps 40 or so. I think it would be a great option for lots more workability and build variety. I see, for example, way too many GWFs doing the same tiresome build they read about online. Sure, certain things just work the best, but variety is the spice of a great game when it's possible and viable to try.
Reaping Strike: Completely avoided putting any points above one into this after I respeced. Not going to bother with it. Main issue is still the same for me. Aside from damage, the charge time makes it a complete joke. Waste of time in both PvE and PvP when I can be doing lesser, but more consistent damage to groups of monsters.
Sure Strike: Actually seems worse to me after the patch. I was messing with it before the patch with only TWO points slotted into it, and I was stacking up to 23K+ damage by the final set of three. Post-patch, I found I was doing much less, not sure why. Still won't use this.
Not So Fast: Damage increase is okay, and it's great for the slowdown effect, but it still needs something a little more for higher levels. Tried it a bit post-patch, and it's still one of my favorite attacks, but unless something else is adding along with slowdown, perhaps stun, it's just not enough damage in epics to make it worth it. Perhaps a short stun followed by a slowdown effect? That would make it more useable. It's great at low levels, as I said, but by 60 pretty blah, even with damage increase. Upper level powers essentially negate it's usage.
Spinning Strike: Still a joke. IT'S A DAILY, IT NEEDS A DAMAGE INCREASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.
Mighty Leap: I still like this skill, but I only use it for one reason, and that's infiltrating enemy spawns in PvP to make them suffer. The distance increase was an awesome addition, but I feel something like stun would make it more useful, or a better damage increase. See suggestion above.
Restoring Strike: I'd say this one is fine as-is. Still has distance, which some people don't consider, and it helps survival in PvE.
Avalanche of Steel: I'd say it's okay overall, but still one I rarely use simply because later ones do more damage. The main issue is still that it's way too easy to avoid. The GWF should have constant control of the moving target circle until they hit the ground.
Slam: Still good. Love it.
Takedown: With the changes, I love this now. I use it primarily in PvP just for extra range and the ability to keep an enemy on the ground long enough to end them before they can really get more than a few hits in.
Bravery: I only slotted this one to increase my powers chart. Still don't use it.
Steadfast Determination: Complete waste, didn't even slot it this time. Just get rid of it.
Wicked Strike: Noticeable difference with the damage increase. It could still do just a little better, but with proper feats I find now it stacks awesome if I have enough enemies to attack. I think perhaps 2 or more enemies would be better for the stacking to begin, but I guess 3 makes the most sense.
Roar: Still don't use it, I see plenty of GWFs doing it, likely because of builds they've read, but I find it's a worthless power to put in a slot I could use for straight damage instead. That's what the GWF needs to be, DPS. Read above.
Weapon Master: Didn't even slot it this time. Sorry, crit fans, I tried a crit build about two weeks ago, and I mean STACKED. Sucked. Thus, didn't bother this time around. Unless crit is worked on as a whole, for all classes, I never see myself bothering with it other than by-proxy through itemization. I'm never going to focus on it again otherwise.
Daring Shout: Still dumb.
Flourish: Keep as-is, one of the best GWFs skills. Everyone should use it, and pretty much does. Only complaint is it BUGS at certain times, increasing the cool-down to a whopping 2 minutes! Figure that out, fix it.
Steel Blitz: Still like this one, I use it primarily in PvE.
Weapon Master Strike: Still love this, great for 2 attackers and single attackers, combining with WS for more fun, but I still feel for what it is it should have a slight damage boost. If not, a slightly increased swing speed would make the most sense.
Come and Get It: Still dumb. Sorry, until you make it so the GWF is invulnerable during the entire time the skill starts and the buff lasts, it's just not worth it. One knock-over and it's done, pointless.
Savage Advance: I tried this one again, sorry, the damage is sad. That's all it needs, honestly, but I regret fully slotting this one. Had to put the points somewhere, anyway, but I would have liked to try something else a bit more. NEEDS a damage increase, no question, it's worse than Avalanche of Steel, which comes before it? How is that ****ing possible?
Steel Defense: Still awesome, under-rated.
Battle Fury: Didn't bother with it, still pointless to me, tried it enough to see.
Punishing Charge: Still an absolute joke. Needs a significant damage increase or removed altogether for another power. I don't think I've ever even seen a GWF use this POS.
Indomitable Battle Strike: Still awesome.
Crescendo: Still glitches out, that needs fixed. Can still be broken by certain attacks, which doesn't really make sense to me because of what it is. Damage seems just right.
Steel Grace: Still good.
UNSTOPPABLE BUG: Still there, but luckily it seems to be fixing without relog now. Not sure why or how, though.
Post edited by chudovishye on
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Comments
Knock back is a good suggestion, yeah, something like that. But, then again, one of the reasons I loved it at low levels was closing the gap between me and the enemy. That's mainly a PvP thing, though.
This is the only one I really disagree with you on.
Roar is one of the most useful skills we have. It can be used to position mobs, interrupt casts, knock stuff off cliffs, save your party members (especially during runs - it applies a root effect after the knockback), initiate fights so the mobs stick to you first, fill your determination bar, fill your ap bar (and I do mean fill for both of those), does some respectable damage, and probably has a bunch of other uses people more creative than me can think of. The windup animation is short to nonexistent, so it can be used and canceled without even stopping. My favorite use has to be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up a certain narcissistic CW's knockbacks after his Singularity or stealing his knockback kill credit, though. That's always entertaining
Instigator has the Allied Opportunity feat which grants CA to your whole group for 3 seconds. It's is an essential group buff. Drop it and watch the HP shred away.
Use Unstoppable before casting or slot Steel Defense.
It's more of a Utility skill. Slot it in during encounters where more mobility is required and Sprint isn't cutting it.
Smoking crack on that one
Then you're only using it to suit YOUR needs. It's a great utility skill for escaping splats. Even more so now that they added a dodge mechanic to the skill. I still think Punishing Charge is better.
I disagree on this one. You don't need to stack crit that much. With WM at 5 stacks, it gives you 10%. With 21 Dex that's another 11% and my base Crit is 29%. With Allied Opportunity, 55% is more than enough crit. That and I just don't see anything worthwhile, at least to me, to replace it PvE/PvP wise.
Eh, kinda of torn between this one. The Sentinel tree has a feat for it where it does 10% of Power as damage which isn't that much, but the 100% threat generation is great. It has good uses. Dropping it while enemies are pulled by a CW's AS adds for that extra damage. It can also grant a good amount of Damage Reduction. Especially if dropped on a group of Elite mobs. Just don't like it because Roar generates so much AP.
Sounds to me like the majority of your suggestions are coming from a PvP standpoint. Everything has it's uses depending on what build you choose.
I do feel that I'm handling adds a lot better as well. It could be due to the patch, or because I completely overhauled my play style from Destroyer to Instigator, which has turned out much MUCH better.
Guess I agree with you, I just don't like it. What's the range for knock-off? Don't you have to be pretty close? The one other complaint I have for it, which I didn't mention above, is you can screw up other party members' attacks if you push a target out of the way while they're targeting it. It's annoying.
Thanks for the comments man, appreciate it. Why does everyone think this is strictly a PvP thing? I simply switch two yellow skills and one red depending on what I'm doing. Works great. But yes, this is an assessment based on how I've built my character, so that should be taken into account.
I assume you haven't fought me one on one in PvP yet. After that rewrite this comment. I took out a group of two TRs and a CW yesterday in PvP, almost dying, but making it. There's a reason for that, and SS would have ruined it.
Roar actually has a pretty significant range. Not outrageously huge, but larger than you would think. The actual knockback itself is very short though. Our CW actually laughed on TS the first time he watched me knock a Red Wizard to him. Only one shorter I'm aware of is DC's Sunburst without divine up.
<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up your party members is a legitimate complaint. It does require more intelligent use than most of our other encounters. I think the potential benefit far outweighs the added complexity, though.
Edit:
I could go all over for most of your statements and how wrong they are, or atleast how they lack experience ,but this could take for ever. From what I got from your post overall, you yet don't have understanding of the class and the usage of its abilities. You should make an opinion after giving up some practice and thinking what the skills can contribute to.
To give you another example besides Roar. You say that Savage Advance has low damage, but have you tested the actual range of the skilll? Because you should know it is the longest gap closer in the game. Damage is decent, it has a stun and aoe knockback built in it, and the range of it is devastating. Also, there is a feat giving you cooldown reduction (25% i think?), when you use Savage Advance. So in PvP, if you use Savage Advance, you get ,the best gap closer,average damage,prone your enemy, pushback enemies, and 25% cr on all your encounters to do some nice combo with it. Can you understand why it is different from avalanche of Steel now?
You praise Steel Defense and Steel Grace, and ditch on Bravery. If you tested all of these 3 enough , you would realise that bravery>of the other two overall. Tanking and PvP wise.
Those are just some basics you should reconsider before opening a thread without half the knowledge of your class. I am not here to defend how viable GWF or not is atm, but when you start a class you must take some time to master it, learn every aspect of it, then make your mind if it lacks something. From what I can understand, you had it doomed before even trying 20% of it.
Now i've only been 60 for 1 week and i'm currently on the Stun-Lock Build. Flourish,Take Down and IBS.
I like the build for pvp but I don't like it for T1 or T2. I can survive but I want to be able to dish out MORE dmg.
So, i'm trying to get feedback from other GWF, the more I read the more I get confused.... lol
Roar is great as a UTILITY encounter. Just because it doesn't do dmg doesn't mean it's not good
That's exactly what I got from pretty much everything in the OP.
...and confirmed.
While I still think that GWF could use a little more love, I also TOTALLY disagree with the OP in the manner it should be applied. I don't think GWF need more dps. The last thing ANY group at this point needs is more DPS. A GWF, will NOT save a group from a wipe because he can do an extra 5-10% more personal damage. I think the devs are missing a very nice opportunity by not taking the "shouts" mechanics into a new level and making this class truly unique or at the very least creating a nice niche for it. Shouts can be made to apply party wide buffs, or radius wide debuffs, which would in turn make the class more useful. The Sentinel tree is moving in the right direction. And while the instigator tree got buffed, it's still just basically a flat damage increase. A good start would be to give Instigator/Destroyer a feat similar to Sentinel's INTIMIDATION feat, where Roar/Daring Shour/and even Battle Fury would have some additional effects to compliment the respective tree.
Thanks Max, I appreciate the input which you have not provided.
Noted, but my argument still stands to how I have my character built. In PvE and PvP, I'd prefer a straight damage skill over one I can use occasionally. I did slot it enough to try it out some more, so I'll give it a go, wouldn't hurt to see the effects you talk about first-hand.
You clearly didn't read anything I wrote, as I suggested, including the topic title. I'm level 60, and considereing that's the current cap I'm pretty sure I "considered the basics" already. If you read my previous thread, which I have a link for at the start of this one, I explained I do very, very well in both PvE and PvP. I've run many T2s without a hitch (until someone rage quits or dcs), and I've done awesome in PvP, typically within 1st to 3rd position every time. Yesterday I had a personal best of 25 kills, 5 deaths, and 43 assists, which I'd say is pretty good proof I know what I'm doing, especially in a party that consisted of 2 TRs and a CW, along with a DC. So yeah, read everything I said before making a blanket comment. I'm level 60, my GS is currently 10.2. I run T2s. I run good PvP. I've tried several things, these are my assessments based on my build. As for some of your comments.
1. I get nearly instant Determination based on my build without using Roar, so I don't need it for that. I prefer straight damage attacks to make it more viable of a build in all situations, not just a few where I can push some creatures off of a ledge but yet not really use it otherwise. Since my Det goes up extremely quickly in any groups over two, and continues to do so as I attack, I end up going Unstop about 3-4 times within 30 seconds, plus I'm giving myself the benefit of using attacks that do more damage than Roar, which is further boosted by using Unstop and saving something like IBS for it.
2. Yes, I know Savage Advance can "close the gap", but so does Crescendo, which does more damage, and also has knockdown/prone effect. So why would I use the one with less damage? Everyone knows GWFs complain about damage, all the time damage, so why avoid what currently gives us the most?
3. I tested Bravery enough to find I got little out of it in PvE in PvP, that's why I don't use it now. I like how you assume I just didn't try them and that I don't know what I'm talking about. Read through everything I say in my original thread clearly next time. It's probably how I have my girl built, that's easily arguable, but I learned a lot through it, and one of the things I learned was I was getting nowhere with Bravery, so I ditched it.
4. Yeah, half the knowledge, nice. You'd do the same going into an argument reading only a fourth of what I had to say. I already made my mind on how I have her built, that's what I'm saying. Read, read, read again. Otherwise, don't comment.
Ask the three GWFs I killed in PvP today at once why they lost, they were all using SS. It sucks. I don't care what increase they made with it, it sucks. I can stack with WMS and combo with WS and get more damage out of it in totality, as well as more total strikes with WMS in Unstop. One of the things I need to state here is I built my girl to do well in BOTH PvE and PvP. She doesn't necessarily excel, meaning doing incredibly well, in either, but she does great in both, and that's what I wanted. Simple power switches and two skills is all I need to adjust to work her as I need to. I understand what you're saying about Roar, it's just that, as I said, I prefer going with straight damage than using something like that. You said yourself right up there "I want to be able to dish out MORE dmg". So why slot Roar when you could slot Restoring Strike, Takedown, or IBS? Wouldn't you rather have that damage?
Yes, absolutely correct, confirmed with a SINGLE statement. Come on man, read my thread here, and first read the original thread pre-patch. Jesus. I see what you're saying about the shout mechanics, but think about it. I do fine, again, let me stress that, when a DC or someone tells me to keep adds off of them in Spellplague or something. If I had a little more oomph there, wouldn't that be useful? The core element here is the GWF is, at its core, a FIGHTING class, thus it should have good DPS as a foundation. If it doesn't, what is it?
You NEED a TR for single target damage and tanking(L-O-L),a CW to deal with the adds and a DC to heal.We still DON'T NEED a tanker of any kind while a CW is on his ball,yea they like us and GF cause we can hold aggro from the DC now but they dont give a **** about us when T2 and CN comes along cause hey 2 CWs can do it plain better,just like before patch.
We didn't need a damage increase in the first place we could use some more utility but that's it,only the bottom feeders(and theres a lot of them playing this class) were doing bad damage before the patch and their still gonna do bad now as well...
3v1? Yep I've done that to, and I gaurantee SS was a huge part of that. GWFs? I stand toe to toe with the ones I've ran into and shredded them with sure strike. Wms then SS.
Just because you can't make it work doesn't mean it doesn't .
Still need to read the rest of the thread beyond this, but maybe adding the slow component of Not So Fast to Mighty Leap and replacing Not So Fast itself with another aoe but with an aoe bleed or aoe mark application component instead of the slow? That seems like it would give both Mighty Leap and Not So Fast (or whatever replaced it) more effective uses.
And again, you cant understand. Roar will give you big ammounts of Action Points, namely on 8 targets you can get close to 70% only from roar. Nothing can bit it to it. And it gives the most determination overall against multiple targets (shorter cd)
Savage Advance has 20 times more range than Crescendo, it even has more range than mighty leap, And Crescendo does not have a pushback. If you think bravery (15% ms and deflection) with 100% uptime will benefit you more than 5 sec immunite after using daily, ok your choice. Fact is that in a 10 game PvP match, you will have Bravery for 600 seconds, and max 25 sec of immunity. Or 30% less control loss effects, whereas Unstoppable will be up most of the times, rendering it useless.
I have 12.6k GS, running T2 and some CN with pugs, not a real fun of PvP investing less time in it, but I know some things after doing a lot of experiments. One of these things are that, you have to think out of the box for many of the spells/feats.Your initial judgement isn't always the truth.
wait, since when can roar hit 8 targets? isn't the target cap on all gwf powers 5?
if you can hit 8 targets with roar then you are using an exploit, because i just used it in game and could only hit 5
so there is 1 of 2 things that you are doing:
1) you used an exploit to increase your target cap (and thus are cheating to get more damage)
2) you are exaggerating to make yourself look better
Roar most certainly has a target cap of five targets. Roar at a huge group being gathered by Astral Singularly, observe as only five pop out. Roar is for driving Determination gain on GWF that don't have the Destroyer cap I.E. Sentinels and Instigator's.
Sure Strike is the PvP combo when paired with one WMS. I would laugh at someone in PvP using Wicked Strikes or Reaping Strike as their at-will. This is a dodge game, and Reaping shows itself too easily and Wicked Strike isn't good single-target damage. PvP is more about Encounters than at-will's anyway, but even then if you have end game enchants (which you should in PvP) then Sure Strike is a clear winner.
Reaping Strike, I'll agree to disagree with the OP on that one. I like it. I built for it. I only PvE, the OP appears to dungeon delve infrequently at best, and likely with other over geared players with end-game enchants. Enchants are the elephant in the room when talking about PvP, and always will be. In that sense, SS will always be ahead of anything else when taking that into consideration.
Mighty Leap is a bar none necessity when running PvE content past T1. The dodge immunity on it is huge. It gives the Great Weapon Fighter a better version of Deft Strike from the TR power pool. Use it. Love it. When paired with WMS debuffs and the Destroyer tree and the Unstoppable buff in the end cap, it's amazing.
Spinning Strike isn't really a DPS ability, so saying it needs to do more damage is moot. If you built for crit, it does slightly more damage. (Still underwhelming.) It's a survival tool with it's uses in T2. (Spellplague, for instance.) The real thing I want changed on this is that it should proc Student of the Sword if it's intended for Sentinels or anyone else to actually use it. The only good thing about it is that it can crit, since the damage is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> at least let us debuff things with it since we're locked into it's animation for better or for worse.
I have yet to see any PvE add's dodge well, let alone dodge Avalanche of Steel. Biggest AoE of all the GWF skills, decent damage, guaranteed CC in it's huge AoE, no apparent target cap. It's the GWF equivalent of Arcane Singularity. When paired with an Arcane Singularity it's almost OP. (I can't attest 100% to no target cap, it's been a while since I actually used it. If I'm wrong let me know, but meh.)
The OP is entirely wrong about Wicked Strike. If you hit two targets the damage starts to drop off. This is corrected in the Instigator tree.
Savage Advance is OP in boss fights. Knocks add's away from you, doesn't knock the boss, gives you extra cool down on Encounters from the Destroyer tree, builds Determination, gives you a ranged attack, allows you to use Reaping Strike on one target, and does about as much damage as your other Encounters. If you aren't a Destroyer, the OP is entirely correct Crescendo is better.
Those are just the things that jumped out at me.
I said this before and got laughed at.Unless you can kill the adds faster than CW could get rid of the(if you could your damage would most likely be OP) than all the buffs wont make a difference. Either make them immune to knock backs or make GWF a single target dps to compete with rogues. The only two options they have to make them viable.
The only reason people are taking CW is because it turns out most CW are building their characters to do paltry damage that doesn't equal that of a GWF which ultimately makes their controlling job much harder. No, seriously, it really doesn't. Maybe if they outgear you and you're doing very poorly they will out damage you. Maybe. One CW that focused on INT/WIS is what you want. It's more than enough, and combined with SotS debuffs on the boss you're debuffing and doing great damage. Consider you're also raising the entire groups damage. Compare their damage without being in a team and you might find it's comparable because they are no longer getting your -45% armor debuff.
It's true that CW can toss the add's off things and make most of the trash moot, but you can do respectable single-target damage as a GWF while still doing your AoE and debuffing. Look at the armor mitigation on Ray of Enfeeblement, arguably the best single-target debuff in the game, then look at Student of the Sword. I didn't value SotS enough until I saw what other classes offer in debuff. (It's not as much as a GWF brings in almost every case.)
And yes, it is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that SotS is so good and at the bottom tier of Sentinel. It's a class defining feat that you can skip, mind boggling.
I didn't make this clear so I'll state it plainly:
The main reason Roar is so good is because of the absolutely ludicrous amount of AP it gives you. It allows you to hit Slam at least twice as often as you would be able to without it. All the other things it does are just happy side effects. The fact that many of those side effects can situationally be extremely beneficial in their own right has earned Roar a permanent spot on my bar in PvE.
Roar is not a situational ability. It's the swiss army knife of the GWF kit. It can be used effectively in nearly every situation to do any number of things. Since you like to use your encounters to focus on raw damage, let's look at that:
You need only hit three targets with it to deal comparable damage to any single-target encounter. There are very few times when you will not be able to hit at least three targets with Roar. The only times when this is not true you are using Roar for one of its other effects (such as pushing Red Wizards on the Dracolich), all the other mobs are dead (and the fight will be over very soon regardless), high single target burst is required (which is a rare occasion and as such by your own logic should not be catered to in your encounter setup), or hitting those mobs with Roar would endanger the party (another very rare occasion, see previous). On top of this, when you attribute the damage the extra AP allows you to deal through Slam, Roar cannot be touched in raw damage by any single-target encounter. The only other encounter that can challenge (and perhaps occasionally usurp) Roar in terms of damage is IDBS, which is basically just a highly concentrated version of Roar with a couple different happy side effects. And since we have three encounter slots, we don't even have to pick between the two.
I appreciate your claim that your build does not benefit as much from Roar as my build does. However, I have a hard time imagining any damage-oriented PvE build that would not benefit immensely from it. Sharing the details of your build would perhaps alleviate my confusion, but I know you are against doing that. If you change your mind, I am very interested in hearing your take on the GWF.
I apologize if this came off as antagonistic. That was not my intention. I simply wish to better understand your reasoning.