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Bleed effects/tick damage post patch on 6/13/13. Huge nerf?
jreaper85
Member Posts: 34
I've noticed a HUGE decrease in damage from the bleed ticks off of duelist's flurry as well as my TR friend in my guild. I've tested this multiple times on dummies, spell plague runs and cn runs as has my friend. I'm a fully gear'd TR (Full T2/Full ancient) as is my friend. We both seem to be getting about 35% or less damage than we are used to (None crit ticks used to be 6k+ min, now they're 2kish with 4kish as a crit). I've copy/pasted the notes from the patch that have any effects on Duelist's Flurry below. I'm trying to understand why we took such a HUGE nerf on bleeds and if it was intended. I don't see anything that should have altered our damage the way it did on bleeds. I'd like others feedback as well, possibly even alternate interpretations of the changes that could explain what's happened.
Duelist's Flurry: Credit for the bleed damage is now properly attributed if multiple Rogues apply stacks.
Duelist's Flurry: Up to 10 stacks of the bleed effect can be applied to a single enemy regardless of how many Rogues applied them.
Duelist's Flurry: The bleed now ticks more slowly.
Duelist's Flurry: The bleed effect now properly reapplies after reaching ten stacks.
Duelist's Flurry: Credit for the bleed damage is now properly attributed if multiple Rogues apply stacks.
Duelist's Flurry: Up to 10 stacks of the bleed effect can be applied to a single enemy regardless of how many Rogues applied them.
Duelist's Flurry: The bleed now ticks more slowly.
Duelist's Flurry: The bleed effect now properly reapplies after reaching ten stacks.
Post edited by jreaper85 on
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Also, we tested slotting Rank 7 Power Enchants and Runestones in our Ioun Stones that we have and saw a noticeable damage incread using Power on companion.
I thought Power only increased encounter damage but it would be cool if we had some numbers to go by.
The dot might've been nerfed but 6.5k ticks every 1.5s is still very good (hint: they didn't fix crit rolling).
Gods Glory to the Heroes.
TR:Anirul Corrino@Fimconte
GF:Irulan Corrino@Fimconte
I'm sure our ST damage will be completely useless vs a rangers once that class is out as it will be the first ranged damage classs. They won't have to sacrifice damage encounters for survivability on boss fights (Shadow strike to drop adds and impossible to catch to avoid damage). This duelist flurry nerf is huge... I wouldn't be surprised if a good damage spec'd GF could match us/beat us on ST damage now tbh.
If you're talking about damage done with a CW using Singularity you're not talking about single target damage. 6.5k is what, a crit tick with enfeeble and GF debuf's? That's still about 25%-35% of what I was seeing before (With buff's/debuffs on boss) that made us the prime class for single target damage. Why the huge nerf and no patch notes that directly indicate a huge damage nerf?
They outdps us overall, and are not far behind in ST. Rangers wont have to worry about melee unfriendly bosses,which is all of them, or players running away due to ranged skills
I am almost 100% sure (99%) that you didn't do any more damage on max stack bleed per tick before the patch went on live when you hit normal, non-crit, non-overrun critical bleed, as a matter of fact it is actually hitting harder than before. The only difference is now, that other classes cannot debuff mobs as much as before to make your bleed go higher or your CW cannot boost your CS high enough for you to have super high bleed damages on normal overrun crit bleed.
No. I'm talking a CW using Singularity to pull all the mobs together so the TR can spam WR on 10+ targets for damage.
That 6.5k is a crit bleed with only Wicked Reminder.
The main reason for the lower crit ticks is the fact that Deadly Momentum got fixed. That cost us 60% crit severity.
Gods Glory to the Heroes.
TR:Anirul Corrino@Fimconte
GF:Irulan Corrino@Fimconte
Sad... but that's what happens when you have a rule by the masses instead of sticking to your guns with class niches.
Right now... TRs have no role. A well spec'ed and played GF CAN and DOES out damage us - all things being equal.
Thank you for telling me I'm wrong, that 2k is actually higher than 6k, and that my testing on dummies before and after patch has only changed because other classes debuffs/buffs were nerfed. Because I always roll with a party to test damage on dummies.
I wasn't aware we had 75% crit severity post patch with full deadly momentum buff stacks. This might help with understanding why crit bleeds are not as high anymore, what about non crits though? Those still have a huge nerf.
I agree. Even if our bleed damage was nerfed due to 'fixing' deadly momentum or nerfing other classes debuffs/buffs at the end of the day it's still really taken away our class roll in this game which has been single target damage/boss damage. If a GF can tank and out damage us we'll slowly lose our appeal. Even with wicked reminder a GF's debuffs are way better than ours.
I definitely did enough testing before and after the patch to confidently say, the only way that you can get 6k bleeds on dummy before the patch was by using lurkers to hit in 10th stack. The difference from before and after is that bleed ticks slower, 1.5 second interval instead of 1, and that now you can actually do 11th stack bleed, even though it says 10 stacks. This means the bleed that is normal, no OC bleed does more damage per tick after the patch than before.
Also I have several times pointed out that power gives almost no extra damage to bleed. If it boosts the damage on a bleed, it is less than 1% for 1600 power difference. So only way you could have done these 6k+ bleeds are by having weapons that do 3 times the damage to normal lvl 60 purple weapon. I do admit there is one thing I never tested, and that is if the power that is on weapons actually makes some scaling. In other words a powerless weapon vs weapon with power, does it make differnce?
Now there is something that has changed from before the patch and after the patch. This would be deadly momentum giving max 15% cs instead of 75% like it did before. This on the other hand would increase your previous bleeds more than they do now, and they both still show as a normal hit even though one is boosted with CO and one is not. Still I doubt that you could have been able to do that much over 3k bleeds before the patch came in.
Also if you think about it 35% less damage, well if the bleed ticks 1.5 seconds interval instead of 1 second, it ticks 1/3 less often which is 33%. If you add CS loss to it, count that the bleed stacks 11 times, you get pretty close to that 35%.
Edit: Another thing to point out: You said that you've lost 35% damage, yet you said that your normal bleed ticks have gone from 6k to 2k. This states that your damage has been dropped by 1/3 minimum, since CS loss is out there as well. Now if we count crit to it and critical overruns, we have 6 * 3 (assuming you have weapon enchant to increase CS ) = 18k bleeds on crit. Now if we add OC and according to Metzli, vorpal blades do not count for OC, we have 18 * ( 1+ (0,3 * 2,8 ) ) assuming you're half orc. = 18 * 1.84 = 33.84k bleed on overrun crit crit bleed. Now if we add lurkers and invisible infiltrator + cunning ambusher we get 33.84 * 1.6 * 1.15 * 1.06 = 33.84 * 1.95 = 66k bleeds without any assistance from others.
To continue, you said your bleed ticks dropped from 6k to 2k, which indicates that your bleed ticked 300% more damage before the patch. Now when we add the fact that the bleeds tick 1.5 times slower, we get 300* 1.5 = 450% damage difference on base damage. So what you're saying is, you do 35% less damage when your bleed used to tick 450% more damage, which is 22% of the damage it used to = 78% less damage. You don't think that there is any contradiction in there?
Our pve damage was nerfed bad. If they don't do anything every rogue is just going to roll Ranger. I know I am.
Also Wicked Reminder and Tide of Iron debuff stack additively to 40%.
Granted, GF also has Mark that offers an additional 10%, but that's why you bring a TR and a GF for a nice 40%+10%(19% if GF also uses Greater Plague Fire) damage buff.
Note that some debuffs work additively and some multiplicatively. From my testing there seems to be two types.
Valiant Set 4pc Bonus, GPF and Mark fall under one, while Wicked Reminder and Tide of Iron debuffs fall under one.
Gods Glory to the Heroes.
TR:Anirul Corrino@Fimconte
GF:Irulan Corrino@Fimconte
This is what PW wants, you re-roll a new ranger. You need to take the time to re-level him = more players in the game, then if you ever spent $$$ on your rogue that odds are good you will spend the same amount on your ranger = PW makes more $$$. Ever MMo does this when they plan on a new class or race. The nerf the f*ck out of current classes to push people to quit them for the new FOTM = new class. this way they make people play their game longer and make more $$$.
I would bet after a few weeks maybe a month of rangers running around they will announce another balance patch that will nerf the rangers and fix rogues/cleric so people go back to playing them and spend more $$ to get caught up to all the new content they didn't do with their original character because they were force/pushed to play the new class from the so called balance patch/nerf....it's all about business and $$$$ they don't care about balance or someone playing one character forever....
Sadly you're probably right on the money here.
Max Dex and Con (STR and POWER doesn't really do anything for our damage even though they said it does)
As many Greater Tenebrous enchants as you can get.
This is the only build that allowed me to come close to my GWF guildmate who is also stacking greater tenebrous enchants. (Single target dps on boss based on parser)
I thought about stacking Tenebrous... They're def OP lol. I've noticed the prices go up as more and more people learn about them as well. I wouldn't be surprised if they're nerfed next.
edit: spelling
That would work too.
Most of those players suck, but since they can kill people with CoS in 6-7 hits its something everyone can do.
They suck at normal fighting though, when they run out of CoS charges and stealth breaks, they run around not knowing what to do.
You need to be very well-geared now to do good damage as a Rogue. You also need a good build / spec with the right Encounters. Problem is, most Rogues have bad to decent gear and simply won't be able to match the damage output of similarly-geared CWs, GWFs, and even GFs.
As for Tenebrous... yeah, that sh*t's OP as f*ck. I still remember when they sold for 5-10k each. I bought Lesser Tenebrous last week for 15k each and sold the Greaters for 900k each on my server. Now, they've skyrocketed up to 40-70k each for Lessers and 1.3m for Greaters. I really do hope they nerf them asap. A Guardian with 30-32k HP and 6 Greater Tenebrous is simply <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.