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Sentinel's Assemble! (Sentinel theorycraft/discussion)
kyuubiil
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 59
So, Honestly i've been thinking of just biting the bullet and buying up a respec token for my instigator and going sentinel, the tree just feels more.. right, to me. plus I enjoy the "first in everything punch me please" feel of the spec.
As sentinel is getting a happy boost from the fact that unstoppable now gives temp hp, and threat is (finally) getting fixed, I figured this would be a good place to start talking about what we've seen/what's useful/etc.
So, just some hedge math off of what i've found:
Deflection: We get absurd amounts, moreso than any other class, assuming you hit ~1200deflection, which is possible without harming your overall stat spread, you will have 10.6% deflection, with 3/3 bravery, that's now 25.6%, with 5/5 master of arms and weapon master at 5 stacks, you've got 40.6% (+whatever dex gives you, 5%, in my case) chance to defelct 50% of the damage.. that's a fairly significant amount of "block".
Defense: More valuable for us than any other class, assuming the capstone works based on the bonus given, not the rating -- 15% from armor specialization, 20% from the capstone, from the numbers given in:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?218211-Defense-Deflection-and-Damage-reduction-%28GF%29
33-34% is about where it starts tapering off hard, assuming that those two bonuses are additive with each other, 33*1.35 = 44.55% damage reduction from defense alone
Armor class: No diminishing returns, and as the above thread shows, adds additively with defense DR -- I have 28 AC in mostly imposing scrapper gear (Cheap defensive set, bought to test some numbers); Assuming in t2 gear that'll end up around 30, so it comes out to a flat 10% DR; Weapon Master with MaA adds another 5, so 12.5% total; Armor specialization ends up with 14.375% DR from ac, adding the two.
58.880% damage resistance, that's a lot. Before unstoppable, Before Deflection.
Encounters
Daring shout seems like an obvious choice, Marks things, gives DR, builds our unstoppable bar -- if we have intimidation, minor damage and threat too (DS doesn't show on the sheet, sadly, but some quick testing in WC -- hitting 3 Drow warriors decreased their damage by about 25%, it's.. significant. -- can't find any threads with exact numbers)
The other two are up in the air, Choices I can see:
Come and get it: As of now, a quick read shows that it's a flat 20% damage buff on one hit within 3 seconds, not really worth it, but intimidation makes it gives some threat and (albeit minor) damage, coupled with pulling enemies to you, it's possible.
Restoring strike: Right now this heals about 1200 for me; with the capstone that'd be 1800 -- nice,but not going to save my life in any situation, still, it's worth a mention.
IBS: Actions points, marking! Huge damage! what's not to love.
Roar: All-important knockback! Determination! AP galore!
Dailies
Slam or spinning strike -- personally favor slam, as the 100% deflect on spinning strike is nice, but we're at about 50% anyhow. Aoe, Defiance gives threat, lovely.
Crescendo: Grim Promise makes a boss hit you for 15% less, what's not to love.
Passives
Weaponmaster: See Man-at-arms
Bravery: Probably my go-to choice, 15% deflection and movespeed
Steel Defense: Nice, but unless you are spamming dailies every 10 seconds or so, it falls behind the constant help of bravery, imho.
Feats:
Common sense in heroic, Constitution focus, AC specialization, Devestating critical (3 points for 15% crit severity when you'll have decent crit from weaponmaster
Paragon: Honestly looking at sentinel, it's ALL good, the things i'd look at not taking, and why:
Scale Agility: 5% deflection for 5 points is.. kind of low, when you've already got 40-45% anyhow.
Grim Challenge: 15% damage to marked enemies is nice, but the goal of this build is to get as much as possible punching you, and marks dissapear when hit, argo things should not stay marked for terribly long
Indimidation: Nice, but unless it's a HUGE portion of your power, the damage will be negligable, as if you are building to be tough you've probably only got 2k-2.5k power anyhow.
Grudge Style: Solid single target threat, specially now that it no longer requires crits, and with slam being a solid source of unmanaged aoe threat, you can afford to spam it -- but unless sure strike's damage was seriously buffed, it'll still be a kind of "eh" at-will.
TLDR: I did a bunch of napkin math on sentinel spec for the new patch, thinking of converting, but don't see much discussion on the spec or math on the crunchy bits (like daring shout!) but with threat fixed next patch, it's a viable spec, so, WE SHOULD DISCUSS IT!
As sentinel is getting a happy boost from the fact that unstoppable now gives temp hp, and threat is (finally) getting fixed, I figured this would be a good place to start talking about what we've seen/what's useful/etc.
So, just some hedge math off of what i've found:
Deflection: We get absurd amounts, moreso than any other class, assuming you hit ~1200deflection, which is possible without harming your overall stat spread, you will have 10.6% deflection, with 3/3 bravery, that's now 25.6%, with 5/5 master of arms and weapon master at 5 stacks, you've got 40.6% (+whatever dex gives you, 5%, in my case) chance to defelct 50% of the damage.. that's a fairly significant amount of "block".
Defense: More valuable for us than any other class, assuming the capstone works based on the bonus given, not the rating -- 15% from armor specialization, 20% from the capstone, from the numbers given in:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?218211-Defense-Deflection-and-Damage-reduction-%28GF%29
33-34% is about where it starts tapering off hard, assuming that those two bonuses are additive with each other, 33*1.35 = 44.55% damage reduction from defense alone
Armor class: No diminishing returns, and as the above thread shows, adds additively with defense DR -- I have 28 AC in mostly imposing scrapper gear (Cheap defensive set, bought to test some numbers); Assuming in t2 gear that'll end up around 30, so it comes out to a flat 10% DR; Weapon Master with MaA adds another 5, so 12.5% total; Armor specialization ends up with 14.375% DR from ac, adding the two.
58.880% damage resistance, that's a lot. Before unstoppable, Before Deflection.
Encounters
Daring shout seems like an obvious choice, Marks things, gives DR, builds our unstoppable bar -- if we have intimidation, minor damage and threat too (DS doesn't show on the sheet, sadly, but some quick testing in WC -- hitting 3 Drow warriors decreased their damage by about 25%, it's.. significant. -- can't find any threads with exact numbers)
The other two are up in the air, Choices I can see:
Come and get it: As of now, a quick read shows that it's a flat 20% damage buff on one hit within 3 seconds, not really worth it, but intimidation makes it gives some threat and (albeit minor) damage, coupled with pulling enemies to you, it's possible.
Restoring strike: Right now this heals about 1200 for me; with the capstone that'd be 1800 -- nice,but not going to save my life in any situation, still, it's worth a mention.
IBS: Actions points, marking! Huge damage! what's not to love.
Roar: All-important knockback! Determination! AP galore!
Dailies
Slam or spinning strike -- personally favor slam, as the 100% deflect on spinning strike is nice, but we're at about 50% anyhow. Aoe, Defiance gives threat, lovely.
Crescendo: Grim Promise makes a boss hit you for 15% less, what's not to love.
Passives
Weaponmaster: See Man-at-arms
Bravery: Probably my go-to choice, 15% deflection and movespeed
Steel Defense: Nice, but unless you are spamming dailies every 10 seconds or so, it falls behind the constant help of bravery, imho.
Feats:
Common sense in heroic, Constitution focus, AC specialization, Devestating critical (3 points for 15% crit severity when you'll have decent crit from weaponmaster
Paragon: Honestly looking at sentinel, it's ALL good, the things i'd look at not taking, and why:
Scale Agility: 5% deflection for 5 points is.. kind of low, when you've already got 40-45% anyhow.
Grim Challenge: 15% damage to marked enemies is nice, but the goal of this build is to get as much as possible punching you, and marks dissapear when hit, argo things should not stay marked for terribly long
Indimidation: Nice, but unless it's a HUGE portion of your power, the damage will be negligable, as if you are building to be tough you've probably only got 2k-2.5k power anyhow.
Grudge Style: Solid single target threat, specially now that it no longer requires crits, and with slam being a solid source of unmanaged aoe threat, you can afford to spam it -- but unless sure strike's damage was seriously buffed, it'll still be a kind of "eh" at-will.
TLDR: I did a bunch of napkin math on sentinel spec for the new patch, thinking of converting, but don't see much discussion on the spec or math on the crunchy bits (like daring shout!) but with threat fixed next patch, it's a viable spec, so, WE SHOULD DISCUSS IT!
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
I'd be interested in seeing that myself, to be honest.
I played around with the tanking abilities when I first hit 60 on a Destroyer spec. I tend to agree that Daring Shout will be a solid pick since it produces absurd amounts of Determination, with the mark buff from Sentinel it probably performs even better especially paired with Student of the Sword. So that's pretty much a must if you're going for Sentinel.
I'm going to go along and say CaGI is probably a very solid second pick. Honestly, CaGI is something I just can't live without and would probably use it on any spec you care to name. (Outside of PvP, obviously.) The added goodies from Sentinel are a great tie-in, although I'm not sure if CaGI can proc steel blitz. I imagine it can, considering that by default it can also proc Deep Gash. Didn't test to see if it can proc SotS, but it merits testing I suppose. I intend to respec to Instigator after playing for a while with Destroyer, but we'll see how the changes end up affecting the teaming metagame.
I'd say Not So Fast is a pretty good contender as well, the added slow gives you more uptime to pull aggro off add's with Daring Shout's marks and the AoE is very friendly.
As for IBS, I'm torn on that one. Yes, the increased effectiveness of marks make it an obvious choice but the lower damage you'll be doing as a Sentinel without marks makes me question how often you're going to get the IBS mark. Also, Daring Shout just does it so much easier. It depends how it works out, and if you can flatline an add with CaGI and IBS but I can't say without a respec. It also depends if the marks stack although I do not believe they do. (Not 100% sure though.)
I agree with the OP's assessment of Steel Defense as well, it seems like it would be nice but it seems more at home on perhaps a Destroyer or Instigator. Although, I just had a thought that makes me wonder if marks fall off if you're untouchable from Steel Defense. Probably not, but wouldn't that be interesting?
You'd probably want to concentrate on deflect either way, just because you always have a pocket 50% damage resistance from Unstoppable. This makes deflection an obvious choice, although without knowing what the resistance cap is it's tough to say for sure what itemization you would want to pursue.
it says increases the benefits of con by 15%.
say you have 20 con, that gives you 20% increased health.
15% of 20% is only 3%
so for 3 points you are getting 3% health. That is pretty bad.
At-wills: WMS + WS or SS + WMS for boss
Dailies: Slam + Crescendo
I was running this build: http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=cn4:2hwcg:5m9s,1x0l12i:60000:b5000:bu0z1&h=0
Optional build: Swap "Staying Power" with "Defiance" if you feel you need the extra threat or defense when you Slam.
I feel this build would be a perfect "Off Tank" build. Of course this is all theorycrafting and have yet to have the chance to actually run T2 with this build yet.
I was running around Whispering caverns and target practice with some live mobs. I noticed I didn't even need to eat up as much potions after every battle. With Destroyer/Instigator builds I would end up having 50% of my HP left or less after every battle with the drider. With Sentinel I was able to keep HP up with the new Restoring strike and ends the battle with 80-90% HP.
Two things, Marks are ironically, not that important, to the point i'd almost skip powerful challenge, the goal is to have things hitting you, and provided you are doing that (since defiance gives slam a HUGE threat boost and slam hits like a ten trucks and has a huge aoe, it's not hard i'd imagine, the marks would fall off almost immediately.
Secondly, I wouldn't stack deflect too hard -- there is a reason I noted "10%" as the baseline in the op. second page of the thread I linked shows how deflection scales
58 -- 0.2%
116 -- 0.6%
245 -- 1.5%
374 -- 2.7%
503 -- 3.9%
755 -- 6.3%
1007 -- 8.5%
1259 -- 10.6%
1539 -- 12.6%
2000 -- 15.4%
2200 -- 16.4% (drank pot)
~1200 is a good baseline, easy to get from gear, and another 1000 nets you only 6% more deflectin, you could be putting those 1000 stat points in to regeneration (to help stave off damage.) or AR pen (damage = threat, wee)
As for steel defense protecting marks, I have one dot in it atm, I can run an test it real quick.
and ther esistance cap is likely between 75 and 90%, those tend to be the two caps for defenses in cryptic games.
Of course all of this is in a vacuum, not taking into consideration things like astral shield, which you'll have regardless, but stil.
Definitely a lot more survival (boss hit me for 3-4K with it's big attack I think it used to do like 7-10K). Party was with 2 GWF, 1 DPS Cleric, 1 Heal Cleric, 1 GF. Rank 1 GWF did very well. Not sure what his gear is or build. I was playing in Sentinel build (9300 GS), DPS Cleric has (13000 GS). Aggro wise I think it's very hard to pull aggro off a GF now... maybe because I didn't get Defiance. Healer Cleric said she didn't get aggro once.
One major issue is the target cap (limited to 5) with our AOE. I definitely feel that it's what is limiting our damage. Hopefully Cryptic will relax that cap to maybe 8 or 10.
As long as you can pull aggro off everyone else that is where you should be.
just my opinion.
True. That means GF aggro is now rock solid and you are there to pick up any strays.
Think I'm gonna roll a 18str/18con, put the +2 in con, boost health as much as possible and stack teneborous in offensive slots.
I tend to agree with you on the Marks. Daring Shout would be a primary method to build Determination while giving resistance, the marks are just a side effect. I can see them maybe being useful at times, but really in most cases probably not.
I was using intimidation with daring shout, it definitely did proc steel blitz.
But managed to get a perfect setup 3 times in whispering caverns (That is,I hit slam then immediately daring shout, and they hit me just as the mark went up -- no damage numbers on me indicates steel defense was still up -- and the mark fell off instantly.)
That said, CaGI/Daring shout, even without intimidation (I'm running instigator on live -- I spent a good 20 minutes killing drow trying to get th attacks to line up in the grace period after slam, a good 50-70 drow killed, had ample time to test >_>) procced steel blitz, interesting thing to note.
http://reyva.com/resources/neverwinter-powers-feat-simulator.9/#crC34IU1RUW776elvlmDeMjsFFOTYJPN5zth6x2XUnUUZ5QCdjcU9yTjFd4Fs1tAqTXUJAxcB
That is my current build. As I see it, the only way to gte grudge style would be to give up deep gash, which I think would be a seizable loss of aoe dps, for single target might even out with the extra crit on SS, but for aoe u dont use SS.
So yea, the fixes are nice (although I would still like to see the restoring strike part of the sentinels aegis feat be changed to some more general, and not tied to one specific encounter ability), but wont change my spec much I think, just make it more viable.
Ooof, I appreciate the information. I figured that's how it worked, but nice to know for sure. It would be really nice if marks stayed though, it would be a reason to actually use the untouchable window. It's nice that CaGI/DS both proc Steel Blitz, makes it a pretty good pick for Sentinel since I believe the damage on it seems to be directly related to weapon damage and not any DPS stat from gear. It's flat damage, if it proc'ed, would be a nice gain on the crappy damage from power you get.
I suspected it would proc Steel Blitz though, if it proc's deep gash it should proc anything including SotS. SotS isn't a big deal with them though, since it would still need to 'crit'. Which oddly enough, this means that CaGI can crit since it also proc's Deep Gash. WTF? Did you notice the added power damage on CaGI crit at any point? I'm thinking it should. Not sure if Daring Shout can crit, I never noticed it proc Deep Gash but I wasn't using DS in my rotation when I had Deep Gash.
http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=cn4:2hwcg:5m9s,1xi902i:60000:60000:bu5zv&h=0
The reason for my choices:
Constitution Focus: The reason why I did NOT pick up this feat is because of the measly gain I got from it. I didn't do a full respec on the preview server but I had 16 CON and each point in Constitution Focus provided me with roughly 120hp. It was hardly worth it, although 1 point into Endless Assault isn't very much either so it doesn't really matter too much where this one point goes as there aren't many good choices here.
Grudge Style: Again, not having a testing partner with me hindered my ability to test this feat but my reasoning for taking this is because of our inability to have any sort of snap-aggro and Sure Strike is the closest thing we have to that.
Defiance: This is one of the feats that I feel is almost necessary because of the unfortunate fact that our AoE aggro abilities is limited to 5 targets and more often than not, there are more than 5 targets to hold aggro on (such a terrible game design). This is where Slam comes in as it isn't limited to the number of targets and Defiance also gives us defense on top of the additional threat. The 25% additional defense in tank gear only provides roughly 2% damage reduction during the duration of Slam so it's not really great but it's icing.
Deep Gash: Our power and crit while tank gear is so low, this feat isn't worth taking.
Great Weapon Focus: This was one of the feats that I thought about trying but seeing as our job is to hold threat as much as possible and damage is secondary, I didn't feel like that this feat was going to help accomplish that more than Grudge Style would.
Skill choices:
Daring Shout is a pretty obvious choice for AoE aggro and resistance as well as a decent chunk of Determination.
I tried Come and Get It and it was okay but I still felt like the range was lacking, not only that but since it's limited to 5 targets (I think it should be 10), getting the ranged in range of Come and Get It proved to be more of a hassle than it was worth. The way I see it is that if they are on the squishies, they are capable of surviving long enough for it not to be an issue or at the very least, the ranged won't be as big as a threat as the melee for me to give them too much thought. Furthermore, if a CW is in the group, hopefully their Singularity can pull them in for me as they are probably using it anyway and don't need me to go out of my way to get the ranged and it would save me an Encounter.
I was mostly messing around with Restoring Strike and although I felt like that it helped in my solo session, I'm not sure how much it will do in T2+ dungeons as the 1.8K heal or so is okay but not amazing. When it crits, it heals for about 3k which is a significant boost.
I used Roar for the usual two reasons: Determination and Action Points. Opening with Roar gives a nice chunk of Determination and Action Points, also, because my build uses Defiance, having a good uptime of Slam to hold aggro is important. Pushing loose mobs away from the squishies will also buy them some time to get away or pushing away incoming mobs so they are grouped up easier.
Indomitable Battle Strike was something I would like to incorporate into the build but unfortunately, the way I see it is that if our damage output is so low, it's extremely difficult to kill a mob with it (it's hard enough with my current live DPS build).
I haven't tried Not So Fast but I think this skill has the potential to replace Restoring Strike. It does some AoE damage as well as slowing things. I think I would be switching this in depending on specific fights.
Overall, (off)tanking with GWF sounds promising but not having an aggro partner doesn't really give me a good idea how well threat generation is.
I am looking at several specs and messing around. As per the above poster..I agree on pretty much every point. On live I do often queue up and try to tank using an Inst. Spec with my Titan gear (4/4 as well) and come and get it just seems weak in its range. For the range it has, when the threat fix goes through you would be better off just slapping the mob at that point. If they buff the range then I could see it being much more useful.
I agree with Grit. The gain is silly and not worth the points. There are other places you could put it.
When I was working on my own tree, I was sitting here trying to think..What do I want? What mindset am I striving for when trying to tank? Will we work like GF's were our crit and ArPen will mean nothing and our base damage on weapons, defense, and recovery will be our sweet spots? Thinking like that, I came up with this spec. I am also looking to get the Allure stone (Zomg Recovery stone) as my companion should it work.
http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=cn4:2hwcg:5m9s,1f0fu05:60000:b0000:b0zuv&h=0
Now remember, this is all just theorycrafting. Any ideas on what should change around, keep, or just scrap is highly welcomed! (IE, I love class discussion
My Atwils will be SS, WMS. Encounters are Daring Shout, Ind Battle strike, Not so Fast (I will be working with high recovery and Defense. Power sits nicely around 3k)
Multiple Personas, only 'One' me
"Why should one devolve themselves to try and entertain those of a lesser mindset around them?"
Daring Shout applies a mark. Which by how marks work in the game generate aggro over time. Marking is like taunt, just not instant. It also has a talent you can take in the Sentinel tree that increases the amount of threat it generates. Using it also will buff the person using it. The buff is determined by the strength of the mobs it is used against. It also buffs..YOUR damage resistance. Not anyone else's. Thus, Tanking ability.
(Straight from game)
Release a mighty challenge that MARKS nearby enemies for a short period, building your Determination for every target it, and increasing YOUR damage resistance based on how powerful the targets are.
Marked foes have reduced damage resistance until they attack you (This is the only thing that would point this away from being a tanking ability though it does not effect aggro generation)
Multiple Personas, only 'One' me
"Why should one devolve themselves to try and entertain those of a lesser mindset around them?"
Incorrect on the threat part, IT doesn't even do that for guardian fighters, marks work differently for each class -- for GF's, it's "10% DR reduction and double threat until they land a non-blocekd hit" -- you have to use a passive (Enhanced mark) to get threat-over-time, Marking is literally pretty useless for GWF's outside of trying to claw for agro through extra damage.
I see the Determination gain and damage resistance buff more than enough to make me still wish to use it.
Edit: I will also be taking the talent which will allow the encounter to generate more threat when used.
Multiple Personas, only 'One' me
"Why should one devolve themselves to try and entertain those of a lesser mindset around them?"
I think this also helps for those adds just spawning out. Focusing on your current target with adds spawning 'RS' and get into position for a good 'cagi' with 'DS'. Right now I see those two on my bar frequently. RS being another one, also the Hilt Bash (forgot the name sorry) is great for control on trash where you need it. RS would be more of a burden at that point. Because you can pick up some more aoe. 'Master Weapon Strike' allowing 'Sure Strike' to get more damage done on those big nasty minions. Bit of a micro contest with every weapon master, one rotation of 'Sure Strike'. During 'Unstoppable' you can 'Weapon Master Strike' and do two full rotations of 'Sure Strike'.
Right now the feat that supports damage to 'DS" and 'cagi'. Needs a bit more testing but i'll get there and come back and post. They said they fixed it? k? haha
Sentinel Fighter Here. Its awesome.
PS: They really really need to fix the Detroyer ability. Having that up for the damage bonus would be a huge boon to the GWF if you could actually have it up during the single target phases of fights.
Restoring Strike: I've made uhm... 8 different GWF's so far mostly to test racials, stat relationships. (normally human, orc or Renegade.) Most didn't get past lvl 20. During Orc Skirmish, I can however confirm that for each GWF, if you use Restoring Strike and a second encounter after, said mob will not aggro the cleric so long as you keep hitting him. If your at-will swings don't hit for at least 3ish seconds, you'll loose aggro. Of course, you have to hit him before the cleric casts a heal; otherwise, you'll be lucky if you can keep him for 3 encounters. And this is before pre-patch; so it might change a bit better to hold aggro.
Discuss...
If we can keep trash off the healer, we clear trash faster and with much less risk. We also reduce the need to have two healers if we can aid the CW in trash control. I tried to make Sentinel work a month ago and gave up. Now I'm 4/4 Avatar of War and full on Instigator and I really don't want to re-gear to make Sentinel work. Fortunately, I don't have to rely on zone to find groups or else I would cry myself to sleep each night. I have a relatively stable group I run with, I just swap out with one TR or our well geared GF, for runs.
I'm going to save my respec token for awhile. Speaking of that, it really chaffs my *** that they didn't wipe out our feats/powers/abilities AND give us the coin. With just the token, yes, we can change our spec, but we have to pay to go back to the original if we don't like the change. If they reset our abilities by default, we could try the new spec, then use the free coin to come back. I know it's all about the green, but c'mon man.
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