For me I'd like a slower rate, to at least somewhat match crafting.
Most MMOs you will be able to craft useful gear for your level as you play the game. NW totally screws that up, though. I even tried combining the drops from 3 characters to give to one, and not do anything but crafting through gateway and invoke for coins and AD. I still leveled up before my crafting skill did. And in order to get the materials you need to keep crafting, you either stretch it out to a ridiculous and annoying degree (all while doing absolutely no content) and slowly gain them through the gathering task, or you play the game and get it as drops; which again levels you faster in xp than it does in crafting lvl.
To me that is the most annoying feature about how quickly we level in the game. I'll be end level long before my crafting skill will actually be at a point to allow me to craft gear that is actually useable. Most likely done to foster spending on the game, but it's just too dang blatant to reward them.
Oh, man. I played BatMUD 20 years ago for 3-4 years and I only got to level 45-50. I don't even remember if it had a level cap. Times have definitely changed.
I never managed to get into MUD/MUSH thing, a little nethack maybe. I spent most of my time doing the tabletop RPG thing.
naughtynoatyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
So annoying that people like to act all self-righteous and tend to speak for the rest of population (especially the OP who actually suggested the other people to make his kids and wife grind a mmo for him lol? I hope he was just joking). I do like fast leveling because I like testing out classes (would be better if we can switch classes all the time), I personally do not care about story, just the gameplay. Anyways, I don't think the problem is about how fast you can reach the level cap, but it is the fact that at this very moment there is very few things to do once you have hit 60. This is a mmo I actually enjoy the leveling process (fast and efficient), but feel very disappointed about the end game content. End game dungeons are kinda dull, obsolete loot distribution method, and the best gears aren't worth the effort of farming. The worst part is PvP, I hate to be critical but it is bad; no adjustments on skills (both damage wise and mechanic wise), lots of balance issues, lack of variety, pointless rewards, really there is no point to keep pvping if not for the daily.
In conclusion, I do like that I can level up fast but I do hate that I do not have much to do once hitting the cap. Hope this will improve significantly in the coming updates. One of the most important rule of doing business: "You cannot be everything for everyone", they just have to pick what their target customers love most. So, as long as it is still the thing for me I will stay, when it is no longer my thing then I shall leave.
But casual players can't enjoy hardcore games! If levelling is too slow, they are just gonna quit halfway through the game! Mike Monhaime, President of Blizzard said this himself several years ago, that the majority of players who cancel their subscriptions are new players who got bored levelling and never reached the cap level! So they sped up the levelling curve and Wrath of the Lich King ended up luring up to 12 million active subscribers! Blizzard proved that casual games = PROFIT, not hardcore games! Sorry, that's just how it is. Most gamers today have lives and don't want to spend the next 2 to 4+ months still levelling their characters to the cap level! They wanna be level capped like everyone else doing end-game content and worry about gearing up their characters!
I hear what you are saying on this arcbladez. However, he failed to mention how long people stayed after maxing out again. They didn't join the game or come back to the game because of casual play. They came back to a game they were familiar with and to see and try the new class, items and features the expansion had to offer. New people joined because they have heard of WoW and most knew others that had played and so they tried it. But how long did that 12 million stay AFTER they reached max level and upgraded their gear?
What a lot of people miss understand about MMOs (including the developers) is that MMOs were originally designed to be social games. They wanted to give us opportunities to play with and meet others around the world that normally would never have known existed. When someone can make max level in a week that social aspect is gone.
You may be correct. A lot of people may quit because it takes to long for them to level. However, they are just as likely to quite when a flashy new game comes out anyway. If you truly enjoy a game, slower leveling wouldn't really make you quit the game.
Many of us have lives outside of gaming. I have days where I work double shifts and have no free time. I also feel for those in the military and understand time is tight. I did my time in the military as well. You should try to play the game with friends, family, kids, spouses and enjoy the extended time together. I just don't think lack of time is a good excuse to justify rapid leveling. And having little time and just wanting to max out to reach the end game content as fast possible when there is no real end game content is a silly argument IMO (no offense intended, just my opinion).
Now with that being said (and there are other threads on this subject), I believe the game should be able to cater to both sides of the argument. I like times when I can hop on and catch up with a friend so I we can play together. But I also enjoy taking my time sometimes.
It was mentioned in other threads that adding an "XP OFF" off button would be nice to have. I don't know if I totally agree with that but, OK. I personally would rather see a slider that allows you to adjust the percentage of xp instead of shutting it off completely. Maybe even a couple of check boxes to enable/disable xp from invoking and crafting.
I also like the idea of the different servers with varying XP amounts. After all D&D allows you to set a campaign with different amounts of xp gain (slow, med and fast). Any of these is acceptable to me as it would allow people to play how they like.
The XP rate doesn't matter anymore. It's the reason leveling so so fast in this game. It's sort of like the developers admitting, "we know people are just going to plow through this content, but we have to make you go through this theme park first because... well, that's tradition. That's just how it's done. And we always do things the way they've always been done."
The entire concept of leveling has become a design trap. Resources are poured into creating maps, designing encounters, writing quest dialogue, paying voice actors, playtesting, etc... all to make this obligatory "leveling up" experience which is, essentially, a solo ordeal. This themepark journey is then blasted through at breakneck speeds so that players can get to "endgame", which is really a polite word for "the real game". And what is "the real game" that players are so anxious to reach? It's a treadmill. Just a simple treadmill.. Run through a dungeon to get loot. What is the loot for? To run through dungeons with. All the work that is poured into that themepark ride is disregarded by players as an obstacle at worst, and an appetizer at best. It's a phenomenal waste of resources, and yet there are very few developers trying to find a way out of this trap... and perhaps even more bizarre, there seem to be very few players who are even bothered by this arrangement, or find it the least bit peculiar. It's to the point now where people really believe that pointless treadmill activities are to MMOs what guns are to FPS games. They think this is "the style" of the genre, that these games exist to satisfy people who need pointless, carrot-stick monotony in their lives.
You'd think that at this point, with the insanely bloated costs of making a game, developers would be trying harder to design smarter, to design game systems that don't waste content with reckless abandon...yet here we are.
...game systems that don't waste content with reckless abandon...
I was thinking that too. Given the current state of the Foundry (which is quite workable albeit somewhat cumbersome in places) as a reflection of the tools the Devs had to work with, the time put into building the "themepark" must have been enormous. And to zip through it like some noxious thing to endure... IMHO doesn't give the creators due respect. But I also understand the need to 'get there quick' (is this mostly a PvP concern?). Or is this a Beta Player phenomenon where there is truly limited time and speed is paramount? And some folks add time-to-completion as an additional challenge.
And then there is crafting vs. questing. Although it seems crafting at the moment is not that useful, there is a huge upswing potential I think. It seems to me the XP gain from Profession Tasks is pretty minimal and that (although untested by me) you may create items well beyond your character's level. Don't know. So Crafting alone won't level you up but then you aren't dealing with the denizens that want your brains for lunch either. Eventually I think Crafting will be increased to where someone focusing on Crafting will have a real place in Neverwinter.
But the Invocation XP IMHO is crazy. My characters get XP amounting to 2-3 Quests if I Invoke 4-6 times throughout a 24 hour period. Stand around and level. What a hoot! I think the outcome for Invocation should be left at the coins, the Buff and an occasional drop (at about the rate it is now). Plenty of XP to be had in the "themepark".
I may just start all new characters in celebration of the June 20 release date. And maybe this is the design point I haven't seem mentioned.... You are expected to create multiple characters, thereby allowing you to explore different aspects of gameplay....
Mmmm. Does anyone know the statistic how many different/new characters any given gamer/account creates during the "life" of that gamer/account?
celusiosMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 20Arc User
edited June 2013
**** no. Don't increase the rate. You're an idiot, I mean that with all my heart and no trolls. Shut this thread down, no one wants to hear dip****s like this guy **** **** up for the rest of us. One good MMO comes out where you don't have to spend 3 months leveling to 60 and this guy complains. Go find another game.
Why do people ***** about leveling too fast? Some of us aren't basement dwellers with 24/7 gaming lives.
You mean like me with a 40-56+ hr a week job a son who needs help with homework, a beautiful wife who wants some of my time? yeah Me who doesn't dwell in my basement, I also think that We level to fast and I am only 21 Lvl on 2 characters in less than a month or just over. We level way to fast for any D&D game. I am higher level than he Heroes that ran with Drzz't and in league with him!
The entire objective of playing an MMORPG when leveling is to feel accomplished when you've made it to level 60. If you want to experience end-game content as fast as possible.. go play a single player game. Perhaps even call of duty, because what you see is what you get from day one. If you're unable to play, or have no time on your hands.. perhaps your time is better spent else where. Me personally, I like a challenge, not something that's given to me.
It's far to easy to obtain good gear, no challenge. Just go PVP all the time then boom, you have what you need...I had a full level 60 purple set at 32. It's comedic. Nothing is unique, everyone wears the same thing. Which is another point, all gear looks the same.
The whole experience aside from the foundry, which is an amazing feature imo. Is a bit shallow, the quest rewards you get are awful, nothing of use. Drops are awful, there are no random blues that drop off of non-elite/dungeon mobs. No diversity to gear. I guess I just come from playing wow when it was in it's prime (BC). Once you play it, every MMO gets compared to it. Let's face it, hate on wow all you like, but they are the benchmarks of which other MMOs are rated.
And my patch keeps stopping. /uninstall done.
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celusiosMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 20Arc User
The entire objective of playing an MMORPG when leveling is to feel accomplished when you've made it to level 60. If you want to experience end-game content as fast as possible.. go play a single player game. Perhaps even call of duty, because what you see is what you get from day one. If you're unable to play, or have no time on your hands.. perhaps your time is better spent else where. Me personally, I like a challenge, not something that's given to me.
It's far to easy to obtain good gear, no challenge. Just go PVP all the time then boom, you have what you need...I had a full level 60 purple set at 32. It's comedic. Nothing is unique, everyone wears the same thing. Which is another point, all gear looks the same.
The whole experience aside from the foundry, which is an amazing feature imo. Is a bit shallow, the quest rewards you get are awful, nothing of use. Drops are awful, there are no random blues that drop off of non-elite/dungeon mobs. No diversity to gear. I guess I just come from playing wow when it was in it's prime (BC). Once you play it, every MMO gets compared to it. Let's face it, hate on wow all you like, but they are the benchmarks of which other MMOs are rated.
And my patch keeps stopping. /uninstall done.
Go play a different game dude. I don't understand why people always need to ruin something good for the rest of us because they don't like it. There is plenty of games suited to what you like out there, I would suggest an Asian one as they are known to be grind fests. Eat up all the sense of accomplishment you want with those.
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wintersbrethMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'm going to reiterate what I stated in another thread, I completely disagree with this. I spend 4 out of seven days a week in the field insuring that many of you have the freedom to play this game and the piece of mind to feel safe in your homes, I spend a few hours on those days I have playing the game and checking the forums for news and interesting little threads. I still have only reached 24 on one character with no other alts. I thank the gains I receive everyday, because it feels like I can get somewhere even though I have very little time to devote to this.
I know how you feel man. but this game is a bit tuned up. I hit 60 way way to fast. I do NOT like comparing MMO's because they are all different. but i do like how wow handled this situation. If you are logged out serving your country most of the week, at least at 1700 Friday you'll have a nice exp bonus in rested to help even the process.
if by in the field u mean overseas soldiering, I want to thank u for serving. as a fellow soldier I can relate to the little downtime u must have. thanks again.
Not ruining anything for anyone, the game will fail, just because there isn't enough there. It's simple. PW may keep it up indefinitely but you will not have the player base to make an MMO.... MMO. I'm not talking about a "grind fest" and don't patronize over achievements. If you want something easily given to you, continue to play. The whole idea behind RPGs in general is to build your character at least though some what of a challenge. The model is wrong, game play is great.
This is the same old argument people have been having for several decades now, all the way back to the dice days, when it was your best friend deciding how many XP's to give you.
I am in favor of slower leveling. And not because I want to "savor" the content, but because, just like every other MMO, this game is essentially the exact same game no matter what level you are. Endgame is the problem in all MMO's, so there's no valid reason to rush people along to this inevitable dead end. Also, there's the simple fact that the more you feel you have earned something, the more valuable it becomes.
I hearken back to the early days of EQ2, my personal favorite MMO. The level cap was 40, and I have a crystal-clear memory of grinding on bears in Antonica to get my wizard from lvl 14 to lvl 15, for pretty much an entire day. Level 40 seemed like a nearly unachievable goal. Level 40 meant something. Level 40 was impressive.
Now, of course, I can log onto EQ2 and grind any archetype to 95 in a couple of days. Means absolutely nothing. Just one more toon to park on my character screen.
So yeah, OP, I agree with you.
At the same time, I sympathize with another segment of gamers - the ones who have demanding work hours. Some people have more money than time. Still, like anything else in life, the time you put into something should be commensurate with the rewards you get out of it. We'd all like to have more leisure time. Even if we're maxed out on leisure time, there are things we'd like to do that we can't because we are doing other things. Others shouldn't have to accommodate our needs just because we're busy. Everyone is busy doing something.
Overall I think this game has struck a decent balance on leveling. I'd like to see it slowed down. At the same time I understand the position of those who wouldn't.
There are 60 levels of repetitive questing, and you want more? WTF? No thank you. I've got 2 characters to 60 now, and it's a grind. If anything i'll prefer if there was only like 20 levels so players get accustomed to the abilities, then everybody is on equal footing for dungeons and PvP. As is, dungeons and skirmishes after 30 are so hard to get into because there are so few players within the level range doing them.
As for the zones, they are awesome, but just make them 60 zones with decent quest reward or faction/seals grinding.
I'm going to reiterate what I stated in another thread, I completely disagree with this. I spend 4 out of seven days a week in the field insuring that many of you have the freedom to play this game and the piece of mind to feel safe in your homes, I spend a few hours on those days I have playing the game and checking the forums for news and interesting little threads. I still have only reached 24 on one character with no other alts. I thank the gains I receive everyday, because it feels like I can get somewhere even though I have very little time to devote to this.
Absolutely agree, my wife is playing this with me and she is very casual and she is actually up to level 48 with her rogue now. I would be agreeable to a toggle for people to turn down or off their xp gains if they want to go slower, but I don't want Cryptic to change the default leveling speed in the game as it stands now.
Comments
Sounds like a Korean Grinder.
Most MMOs you will be able to craft useful gear for your level as you play the game. NW totally screws that up, though. I even tried combining the drops from 3 characters to give to one, and not do anything but crafting through gateway and invoke for coins and AD. I still leveled up before my crafting skill did. And in order to get the materials you need to keep crafting, you either stretch it out to a ridiculous and annoying degree (all while doing absolutely no content) and slowly gain them through the gathering task, or you play the game and get it as drops; which again levels you faster in xp than it does in crafting lvl.
To me that is the most annoying feature about how quickly we level in the game. I'll be end level long before my crafting skill will actually be at a point to allow me to craft gear that is actually useable. Most likely done to foster spending on the game, but it's just too dang blatant to reward them.
I never managed to get into MUD/MUSH thing, a little nethack maybe. I spent most of my time doing the tabletop RPG thing.
This is certainly a very lively subject.
glassdoor.com - Cryptic Studios Review
In conclusion, I do like that I can level up fast but I do hate that I do not have much to do once hitting the cap. Hope this will improve significantly in the coming updates. One of the most important rule of doing business: "You cannot be everything for everyone", they just have to pick what their target customers love most. So, as long as it is still the thing for me I will stay, when it is no longer my thing then I shall leave.
I hear what you are saying on this arcbladez. However, he failed to mention how long people stayed after maxing out again. They didn't join the game or come back to the game because of casual play. They came back to a game they were familiar with and to see and try the new class, items and features the expansion had to offer. New people joined because they have heard of WoW and most knew others that had played and so they tried it. But how long did that 12 million stay AFTER they reached max level and upgraded their gear?
What a lot of people miss understand about MMOs (including the developers) is that MMOs were originally designed to be social games. They wanted to give us opportunities to play with and meet others around the world that normally would never have known existed. When someone can make max level in a week that social aspect is gone.
You may be correct. A lot of people may quit because it takes to long for them to level. However, they are just as likely to quite when a flashy new game comes out anyway. If you truly enjoy a game, slower leveling wouldn't really make you quit the game.
Many of us have lives outside of gaming. I have days where I work double shifts and have no free time. I also feel for those in the military and understand time is tight. I did my time in the military as well. You should try to play the game with friends, family, kids, spouses and enjoy the extended time together. I just don't think lack of time is a good excuse to justify rapid leveling. And having little time and just wanting to max out to reach the end game content as fast possible when there is no real end game content is a silly argument IMO (no offense intended, just my opinion).
Now with that being said (and there are other threads on this subject), I believe the game should be able to cater to both sides of the argument. I like times when I can hop on and catch up with a friend so I we can play together. But I also enjoy taking my time sometimes.
It was mentioned in other threads that adding an "XP OFF" off button would be nice to have. I don't know if I totally agree with that but, OK. I personally would rather see a slider that allows you to adjust the percentage of xp instead of shutting it off completely. Maybe even a couple of check boxes to enable/disable xp from invoking and crafting.
I also like the idea of the different servers with varying XP amounts. After all D&D allows you to set a campaign with different amounts of xp gain (slow, med and fast). Any of these is acceptable to me as it would allow people to play how they like.
The entire concept of leveling has become a design trap. Resources are poured into creating maps, designing encounters, writing quest dialogue, paying voice actors, playtesting, etc... all to make this obligatory "leveling up" experience which is, essentially, a solo ordeal. This themepark journey is then blasted through at breakneck speeds so that players can get to "endgame", which is really a polite word for "the real game". And what is "the real game" that players are so anxious to reach? It's a treadmill. Just a simple treadmill.. Run through a dungeon to get loot. What is the loot for? To run through dungeons with. All the work that is poured into that themepark ride is disregarded by players as an obstacle at worst, and an appetizer at best. It's a phenomenal waste of resources, and yet there are very few developers trying to find a way out of this trap... and perhaps even more bizarre, there seem to be very few players who are even bothered by this arrangement, or find it the least bit peculiar. It's to the point now where people really believe that pointless treadmill activities are to MMOs what guns are to FPS games. They think this is "the style" of the genre, that these games exist to satisfy people who need pointless, carrot-stick monotony in their lives.
You'd think that at this point, with the insanely bloated costs of making a game, developers would be trying harder to design smarter, to design game systems that don't waste content with reckless abandon...yet here we are.
I was thinking that too. Given the current state of the Foundry (which is quite workable albeit somewhat cumbersome in places) as a reflection of the tools the Devs had to work with, the time put into building the "themepark" must have been enormous. And to zip through it like some noxious thing to endure... IMHO doesn't give the creators due respect. But I also understand the need to 'get there quick' (is this mostly a PvP concern?). Or is this a Beta Player phenomenon where there is truly limited time and speed is paramount? And some folks add time-to-completion as an additional challenge.
And then there is crafting vs. questing. Although it seems crafting at the moment is not that useful, there is a huge upswing potential I think. It seems to me the XP gain from Profession Tasks is pretty minimal and that (although untested by me) you may create items well beyond your character's level. Don't know. So Crafting alone won't level you up but then you aren't dealing with the denizens that want your brains for lunch either. Eventually I think Crafting will be increased to where someone focusing on Crafting will have a real place in Neverwinter.
But the Invocation XP IMHO is crazy. My characters get XP amounting to 2-3 Quests if I Invoke 4-6 times throughout a 24 hour period. Stand around and level. What a hoot! I think the outcome for Invocation should be left at the coins, the Buff and an occasional drop (at about the rate it is now). Plenty of XP to be had in the "themepark".
I may just start all new characters in celebration of the June 20 release date. And maybe this is the design point I haven't seem mentioned.... You are expected to create multiple characters, thereby allowing you to explore different aspects of gameplay....
Mmmm. Does anyone know the statistic how many different/new characters any given gamer/account creates during the "life" of that gamer/account?
Please nerf exp rate by 80% (I'm 60 now muahaha)
Slow down and enjoy the ride.
It's far to easy to obtain good gear, no challenge. Just go PVP all the time then boom, you have what you need...I had a full level 60 purple set at 32. It's comedic. Nothing is unique, everyone wears the same thing. Which is another point, all gear looks the same.
The whole experience aside from the foundry, which is an amazing feature imo. Is a bit shallow, the quest rewards you get are awful, nothing of use. Drops are awful, there are no random blues that drop off of non-elite/dungeon mobs. No diversity to gear. I guess I just come from playing wow when it was in it's prime (BC). Once you play it, every MMO gets compared to it. Let's face it, hate on wow all you like, but they are the benchmarks of which other MMOs are rated.
And my patch keeps stopping. /uninstall done.
Go play a different game dude. I don't understand why people always need to ruin something good for the rest of us because they don't like it. There is plenty of games suited to what you like out there, I would suggest an Asian one as they are known to be grind fests. Eat up all the sense of accomplishment you want with those.
I know how you feel man. but this game is a bit tuned up. I hit 60 way way to fast. I do NOT like comparing MMO's because they are all different. but i do like how wow handled this situation. If you are logged out serving your country most of the week, at least at 1700 Friday you'll have a nice exp bonus in rested to help even the process.
In single player games, when you reach endgame, the game ends.
I am in favor of slower leveling. And not because I want to "savor" the content, but because, just like every other MMO, this game is essentially the exact same game no matter what level you are. Endgame is the problem in all MMO's, so there's no valid reason to rush people along to this inevitable dead end. Also, there's the simple fact that the more you feel you have earned something, the more valuable it becomes.
I hearken back to the early days of EQ2, my personal favorite MMO. The level cap was 40, and I have a crystal-clear memory of grinding on bears in Antonica to get my wizard from lvl 14 to lvl 15, for pretty much an entire day. Level 40 seemed like a nearly unachievable goal. Level 40 meant something. Level 40 was impressive.
Now, of course, I can log onto EQ2 and grind any archetype to 95 in a couple of days. Means absolutely nothing. Just one more toon to park on my character screen.
So yeah, OP, I agree with you.
At the same time, I sympathize with another segment of gamers - the ones who have demanding work hours. Some people have more money than time. Still, like anything else in life, the time you put into something should be commensurate with the rewards you get out of it. We'd all like to have more leisure time. Even if we're maxed out on leisure time, there are things we'd like to do that we can't because we are doing other things. Others shouldn't have to accommodate our needs just because we're busy. Everyone is busy doing something.
Overall I think this game has struck a decent balance on leveling. I'd like to see it slowed down. At the same time I understand the position of those who wouldn't.
As for the zones, they are awesome, but just make them 60 zones with decent quest reward or faction/seals grinding.
Absolutely agree, my wife is playing this with me and she is very casual and she is actually up to level 48 with her rogue now. I would be agreeable to a toggle for people to turn down or off their xp gains if they want to go slower, but I don't want Cryptic to change the default leveling speed in the game as it stands now.