Slam does, I just tested it. I didn't get an exact count but it looks like each pulse only hits about 5 enemies. Each time it pulses it can hit different enemies so I can understand how it can look like it doesn't have a cap, but it's pretty obvious when enemies are standing in it at full life.
I had noticed that Reaping Strike hit a max of five targets in Pirate, but apparently most abilities have that limitation. I'm unsure if Wicked Strikes suffers from the same limitation, but that might part of the issue with GWF considering T2 consists almost entirely of thick add spawn.
The other abilities, like Slam and WMS probably are limited to five targets per attack. Slam makes an attack every second or so, and WMS is technically two attacks in one which would raise it's limit 10 targets per click effectively.
I appreciate the feedback, and it's good to know that it works at the very least, but I'd like to know more about this 'clunky' comment. As to RS being capped, I'm wondering if Wicked Strikes is capped in the same way.
If every at-will is capped at 5 targets than I can't think of any GWF build that would do effective AoE damage in T2 end boss fights. At least WS attacks more often, which would help it out a lot at being effective.
It's starting to look like the developers intended there to be only one effective GWF route. Tough to justify being a Destroyer at all when Instigator is an option, but I'll reserve judgement until I can find out if Wicked Strike has a similar cap.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Seems like Wicked Strike does have the same cap, although since it attacks faster it spreads the damage out among several targets faster which gives the illusion of hitting more targets. Alternating with WMS will hit ten targets per cast, as it's two attacks, which also helps to mask the limitation of the other At-Wills. It becomes obvious pretty quickly why Instigator does far more AoE damage than Destroyer, but to be frank it's starting to look like holding down WMS might be the best plan in thick add spawn no matter what your build is. Weaving WMS/WS together and cancelling the animation is probably superior overall, but I have not tested it since I'm not an Instigator build.
I'm just waiting on class balance patch at this point. Further testing is moot until then.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Reaping Strike has one major flaw that has kept me from using it for most of the time I have played a GWF. That being that it doesn't automatically attack on a full charge when you hold the button down. sure all the other at-wills are "tap" abilities but they can attack over and over by holding down the button. this works awesome with weapon master's strike and sure strike. Try holding down reapers and you stand there holding the sword at full charge. Takes just the right timing to get it to work because it can't be tapped and anything less than a full charge does lousy damage.
This illustrates some of my main problems with RS in its current form.
This illustrates some of my main problems with RS in its current form.
You mean the fact that RS rewards the player for using their brain? I admit it's tougher to watch the charge bar than hold down a mouse button but is it really that much harder to let go of the button and hit dash to get out of circles?
The only problem with RS is that it's too hard to utilize the single-target portion of it in any meaningful way in dungeons and that it's less useful as pure AoE DPS due to max targets hit being capped at five. There are real limitations to RS, you don't need to make up new ones.
The game gives you a charge bar that you can move right over your characters head if you are legally blind. Watch the charge bar, release when full.
There are times when you want to hold your charge, such as when a CW blows everything to the wind. They will return, just wait a second, then let go of the button. I would think it's pretty obvious, but the fact it lets you 'save' your charge is very useful in certain situations. (Such as Pirates, with jumping Warewolves. Boy howdy I'm glad I can keep my charge and not waste it because they jump every two seconds.)
Even with the downsides to RS I still love it. When you get the chance to use a fully charged RS on a boss without add's cluttering your vision it does top-tier single-target DPS while still maintaining acceptable levels of AoE in Slam and WMS. (And I still use 2x RS while in Unstoppable versus a few stronger mobs. I.E. five or less.)
I will say that the thing that bothers me most about Reaping Strike is that it can't be used as a tap ability. The bottom charge of Reaping Strike needs to execute on tap, not after a second of charge time. It's minor, but it's silly that you can let go of RS and do no damage at all.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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kwaziMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
I've cleared CN with a destroyer RS build. Kept up in damage pre-dracolich against a CW with CN weapon and a geared GF with CN weapon with drake sword. ArP capped thanks to ioun + disciple of war with room for tenebrous enchants. My feats are also slightly different but I feel they mesh perfectly with my gear.
During bosses I could've been playing a better class but that's more at fault for cryptic for not allowing us to hit everything/do enough damage to actually kill elites. Still, I didn't feel useless once I discovered that while not as good as CW or DC at dealing with adds, I grabbed enough aggro to let the DC and CW do their jobs properly. Not to mention I ran around roaring things into the singularity and reviving people getting hit by shadow hands (mainly the DC but the CW sometimes as well) so I was still pretty busy.
I love RS since with full debuffs + buffs it hits harder than IBS single target + AoE. The feat buffs our single target damage while keeping an extremely strong AoE attack not to mention you can place those points elsewhere if you feel the need to do so, unlike WS where the point investment is needed. Instigator is probably better at organized teamplay where people can do their rotations around your combat advantage buff but who doesn't love being able to sprint cancel + slam all the time?
dont lie to yourself.
GWF sucks. periond. most likely never to get fixed since cryptic dont balance things in game. the only thing they do is fix glitches/bugs/exploits. but thats about it
I have faith they will fix the GWF, this is probably their top money maker now and hopefully will motivate them to improve it.
Hmm, well the expected patch notes are live although the patch itself is not. Looks like it drops on the 20th of this month, along with shard merges etc. At a glance, the changes to GWF are underwhelming in general. They made changes to some of the abilities that were so bad that literally no one ever used them (I.E. Mighty Leap and Spinning Strike). Mighty Leap is now the GWF dodge skill, although they didn't just go ahead and replace Dash with it even though that's what they should have done. Oh well, at least it's a step in the right direction.
The only changes that looked even slightly interesting is increased damage on Not So Fast versus a single target (which we already know is a fail mechanic from looking at Reaping Strike) although it also gets a damage boost versus multiple targets which is more acceptable.
Basically they reduced a bunch of cool downs on things I never used, although I think Cryptic was confused. I didn't use those abilities because they were terrible, not because of the cooldowns. Battle Fury being a prime example of an ability that just doesn't cut it in my book. Lackluster damage boost and short buff duration were my issues with it.
The biggest and best thing they changed for GWF? Sure Strike is getting a damage buff. This means that I'll probably need to redo my entire build since Reaping Strike doesn't appear to be a good pick for T2 dungeons. Oh, almost forgot, Instigator's are getting a buff too since Wicked Strikes is getting more damage as well.
So basically, in short, the Destroyer path is probably the least viable of the three after the aggro mechanics are fixed. GG, Destroyers.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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kwaziMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
Replacing dash would be dumb. Dash cancelling is where a lot of the damage comes from and it keeps GWF efficient since you can cancel almost every animation.
I'm pretty happy with the changes for destroyer on paper since I use Roar and Battlefury a lot for AP generation + slamspamming and reaping did a lot of damage already but depending on how much they buffed WS and SS I might make the switch anyway.
Replacing dash would be dumb. Dash cancelling is where a lot of the damage comes from and it keeps GWF efficient since you can cancel almost every animation.
I'm pretty happy with the changes for destroyer on paper since I use Roar and Battlefury a lot for AP generation + slamspamming and reaping did a lot of damage already but depending on how much they buffed WS and SS I might make the switch anyway.
I'm not sure what to say to you, but dash cancelling on your at-will's isn't going to net you any kind of huge increase with a Destroyer. Reaping Strike still needs to charge, and WMS doesn't need dash to cancel it. So really I don't know what you're talking about.
Also, Battle Fury is a piece of HAMSTER. Parse with Battle Fury and without Battle Fury. AP gain? IBS and the Destroyer cap are plenty.
Battle Fury add's a small amount of damage, ok AP generation, and gives stamina. None of those things are required, as all of them are available in better abilities than Battle Fury. It would be like if Spinning Strike took half as many AP to execute. Yeah, it improves it, but it's still a piece of HAMSTER.
I have faith they will fix the GWF, this is probably their top money maker now and hopefully will motivate them to improve it.
Every new game Cryptic comes out with is their top money maker. That's why they come out with a new game every few years. It's because everyone quits a Cryptic game after a year or two (If people even make it that long), and they must make a new one or go out of business. They finally ran dry, which is why PWE bought them out.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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kwaziMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
So you're telling me you sit through the recovery time of both reaping and WMS. If you're spamming WMS you get a lot more swings out by cancelling after the first hit and you can dash cancel right after RS hits to go into another attack. I don't understand how you think it's not beneficial at all assuming you do it properly. I thought this was common knowledge by now.
Dash cancelling also benefits WS and SS by shaving off a small amount of time at the end of the combos letting you use WMS or another WS. Queuing up a RS is slower than just dash cancellings WMS into RS and you're not going to have encounters up all the time to cancel the slow RS swing animation so you need dash cancelling there.
If you don't really see how battlefury is useful then you clearly don't use every aspect of BF like I do. In the end you have your ways of clearing CN and I have mine.
So you're telling me you sit through the recovery time of both reaping and WMS. If you're spamming WMS you get a lot more swings out by cancelling after the first hit and you can dash cancel right after RS hits to go into another attack. I don't understand how you think it's not beneficial at all assuming you do it properly. I thought this was common knowledge by now.
Dash cancelling also benefits WS and SS by shaving off a small amount of time at the end of the combos letting you use WMS or another WS. Queuing up a RS is slower than just dash cancellings WMS into RS and you're not going to have encounters up all the time to cancel the slow RS swing animation so you need dash cancelling there.
If you don't really see how battlefury is useful then you clearly don't use every aspect of BF like I do. In the end you have your ways of clearing CN and I have mine.
The reason why I question you is because Reaping Strike seems to automatically cancel the WMS animation, and the shaved off time of dash cancelling a Reaping Strike is so negligible as to not exist. It's probably about .3 of a second. The cancel on WMS isn't worthwhile unless for some reason you don't have Unstoppable up. If it is, than there's really not a reason to cancel at all.
So, in essence, while you might feel more l33t by canceling you really aren't. This isn't Age of Conan.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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kwaziMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
What? RS has a huge afterswing delay where you can't do anything unless you cancel it with an encounter/dash. WMS gets faster with cancelling especially with repeated swings. RS afterswing is the biggest thing and you can dash cancel that.
What? RS has a huge afterswing delay where you can't do anything unless you cancel it with an encounter/dash. WMS gets faster with cancelling especially with repeated swings. RS afterswing is the biggest thing and you can dash cancel that.
I can understand canceling something like Flourish, and sometimes canceling RS is necessary, but it just doesn't save that much time if you're in a slug fight. I find myself wasting time after a dash cancel turning back towards the target, but that's just me. It's also tough enough positioning yourself just right to hit multiple targets, and a dash cancel doesn't really benefit me unless I can get combat advantage from it.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Well, to be honest with Instigator and Sentinel both getting buffed I think Destroyer is going to be second-string DPS for a while. I think that the aggro fix might end up being a Destroyers best friend though, especially if you're like me and use Reaping Strike. Once you get any aggro at all you're pretty much Unstoppable 95% of the time. I think that after looking into it a bit more that's the real strength of a Destroyer when paired with Reaping Strike. You will be Unstoppable more than any other spec except for perhaps Sentinel's using Daring Shout. Even then, Destroyers will do more actual damage while Unstoppable ergo will probably be just as good at off-tanking.
My only real concern is the duration nerf on AS. I don't care that stacking was fixed, but Destroyer probably relies a bit more on AS to achieve off-tank status. Even then, a full belt of potions will certainly do even if it eventually add's up to big money spent. The temp HP off Unstoppable is...underwhelming to me. They also don't seem consistent, and with Destroyer popping Unstoppable almost as soon as it's down it does some very odd things with the temp HP. Sometimes they apply, but they drop off at odd times and obviously don't stack with themselves. I would still have temp HP from my previous Unstoppable while popping Unstoppable, and occasionally the temp HP dropped off while I was still in Unstoppable which seems counter productive.
Honestly, the temporary HP off Unstoppable needs to limited to the duration of Unstoppable. (I.E. they drop off as soon as Unstoppable drops off.) To be fair, I have not tested this in a dungeon this was all in the training area. Perhaps it works better when the temp HP are being knocked off by monsters.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Comments
No, that's true. Slam also has a 5 target cap.
Slam and Roar have no cap.
Cool. The OP is right, GWF is a lot of fun. For the other classes to watch.
Funny but that is exactly what happened at Pirate King.
Rest of the party wiped except GF and GWF. They asked us too wipe after 5 minutes because they wanted to play too.
The other abilities, like Slam and WMS probably are limited to five targets per attack. Slam makes an attack every second or so, and WMS is technically two attacks in one which would raise it's limit 10 targets per click effectively.
@exiler1s:
I appreciate the feedback, and it's good to know that it works at the very least, but I'd like to know more about this 'clunky' comment. As to RS being capped, I'm wondering if Wicked Strikes is capped in the same way.
If every at-will is capped at 5 targets than I can't think of any GWF build that would do effective AoE damage in T2 end boss fights. At least WS attacks more often, which would help it out a lot at being effective.
It's starting to look like the developers intended there to be only one effective GWF route. Tough to justify being a Destroyer at all when Instigator is an option, but I'll reserve judgement until I can find out if Wicked Strike has a similar cap.
I'm just waiting on class balance patch at this point. Further testing is moot until then.
This illustrates some of my main problems with RS in its current form.
You mean the fact that RS rewards the player for using their brain? I admit it's tougher to watch the charge bar than hold down a mouse button but is it really that much harder to let go of the button and hit dash to get out of circles?
The only problem with RS is that it's too hard to utilize the single-target portion of it in any meaningful way in dungeons and that it's less useful as pure AoE DPS due to max targets hit being capped at five. There are real limitations to RS, you don't need to make up new ones.
The game gives you a charge bar that you can move right over your characters head if you are legally blind. Watch the charge bar, release when full.
There are times when you want to hold your charge, such as when a CW blows everything to the wind. They will return, just wait a second, then let go of the button. I would think it's pretty obvious, but the fact it lets you 'save' your charge is very useful in certain situations. (Such as Pirates, with jumping Warewolves. Boy howdy I'm glad I can keep my charge and not waste it because they jump every two seconds.)
Even with the downsides to RS I still love it. When you get the chance to use a fully charged RS on a boss without add's cluttering your vision it does top-tier single-target DPS while still maintaining acceptable levels of AoE in Slam and WMS. (And I still use 2x RS while in Unstoppable versus a few stronger mobs. I.E. five or less.)
I will say that the thing that bothers me most about Reaping Strike is that it can't be used as a tap ability. The bottom charge of Reaping Strike needs to execute on tap, not after a second of charge time. It's minor, but it's silly that you can let go of RS and do no damage at all.
During bosses I could've been playing a better class but that's more at fault for cryptic for not allowing us to hit everything/do enough damage to actually kill elites. Still, I didn't feel useless once I discovered that while not as good as CW or DC at dealing with adds, I grabbed enough aggro to let the DC and CW do their jobs properly. Not to mention I ran around roaring things into the singularity and reviving people getting hit by shadow hands (mainly the DC but the CW sometimes as well) so I was still pretty busy.
I love RS since with full debuffs + buffs it hits harder than IBS single target + AoE. The feat buffs our single target damage while keeping an extremely strong AoE attack not to mention you can place those points elsewhere if you feel the need to do so, unlike WS where the point investment is needed. Instigator is probably better at organized teamplay where people can do their rotations around your combat advantage buff but who doesn't love being able to sprint cancel + slam all the time?
I have faith they will fix the GWF, this is probably their top money maker now and hopefully will motivate them to improve it.
The only changes that looked even slightly interesting is increased damage on Not So Fast versus a single target (which we already know is a fail mechanic from looking at Reaping Strike) although it also gets a damage boost versus multiple targets which is more acceptable.
Basically they reduced a bunch of cool downs on things I never used, although I think Cryptic was confused. I didn't use those abilities because they were terrible, not because of the cooldowns. Battle Fury being a prime example of an ability that just doesn't cut it in my book. Lackluster damage boost and short buff duration were my issues with it.
The biggest and best thing they changed for GWF? Sure Strike is getting a damage buff. This means that I'll probably need to redo my entire build since Reaping Strike doesn't appear to be a good pick for T2 dungeons. Oh, almost forgot, Instigator's are getting a buff too since Wicked Strikes is getting more damage as well.
So basically, in short, the Destroyer path is probably the least viable of the three after the aggro mechanics are fixed. GG, Destroyers.
I'm pretty happy with the changes for destroyer on paper since I use Roar and Battlefury a lot for AP generation + slamspamming and reaping did a lot of damage already but depending on how much they buffed WS and SS I might make the switch anyway.
I'm not sure what to say to you, but dash cancelling on your at-will's isn't going to net you any kind of huge increase with a Destroyer. Reaping Strike still needs to charge, and WMS doesn't need dash to cancel it. So really I don't know what you're talking about.
Also, Battle Fury is a piece of HAMSTER. Parse with Battle Fury and without Battle Fury. AP gain? IBS and the Destroyer cap are plenty.
Battle Fury add's a small amount of damage, ok AP generation, and gives stamina. None of those things are required, as all of them are available in better abilities than Battle Fury. It would be like if Spinning Strike took half as many AP to execute. Yeah, it improves it, but it's still a piece of HAMSTER.
Every new game Cryptic comes out with is their top money maker. That's why they come out with a new game every few years. It's because everyone quits a Cryptic game after a year or two (If people even make it that long), and they must make a new one or go out of business. They finally ran dry, which is why PWE bought them out.
Dash cancelling also benefits WS and SS by shaving off a small amount of time at the end of the combos letting you use WMS or another WS. Queuing up a RS is slower than just dash cancellings WMS into RS and you're not going to have encounters up all the time to cancel the slow RS swing animation so you need dash cancelling there.
If you don't really see how battlefury is useful then you clearly don't use every aspect of BF like I do. In the end you have your ways of clearing CN and I have mine.
The reason why I question you is because Reaping Strike seems to automatically cancel the WMS animation, and the shaved off time of dash cancelling a Reaping Strike is so negligible as to not exist. It's probably about .3 of a second. The cancel on WMS isn't worthwhile unless for some reason you don't have Unstoppable up. If it is, than there's really not a reason to cancel at all.
So, in essence, while you might feel more l33t by canceling you really aren't. This isn't Age of Conan.
I can understand canceling something like Flourish, and sometimes canceling RS is necessary, but it just doesn't save that much time if you're in a slug fight. I find myself wasting time after a dash cancel turning back towards the target, but that's just me. It's also tough enough positioning yourself just right to hit multiple targets, and a dash cancel doesn't really benefit me unless I can get combat advantage from it.
Well, to be honest with Instigator and Sentinel both getting buffed I think Destroyer is going to be second-string DPS for a while. I think that the aggro fix might end up being a Destroyers best friend though, especially if you're like me and use Reaping Strike. Once you get any aggro at all you're pretty much Unstoppable 95% of the time. I think that after looking into it a bit more that's the real strength of a Destroyer when paired with Reaping Strike. You will be Unstoppable more than any other spec except for perhaps Sentinel's using Daring Shout. Even then, Destroyers will do more actual damage while Unstoppable ergo will probably be just as good at off-tanking.
My only real concern is the duration nerf on AS. I don't care that stacking was fixed, but Destroyer probably relies a bit more on AS to achieve off-tank status. Even then, a full belt of potions will certainly do even if it eventually add's up to big money spent. The temp HP off Unstoppable is...underwhelming to me. They also don't seem consistent, and with Destroyer popping Unstoppable almost as soon as it's down it does some very odd things with the temp HP. Sometimes they apply, but they drop off at odd times and obviously don't stack with themselves. I would still have temp HP from my previous Unstoppable while popping Unstoppable, and occasionally the temp HP dropped off while I was still in Unstoppable which seems counter productive.
Honestly, the temporary HP off Unstoppable needs to limited to the duration of Unstoppable. (I.E. they drop off as soon as Unstoppable drops off.) To be fair, I have not tested this in a dungeon this was all in the training area. Perhaps it works better when the temp HP are being knocked off by monsters.