What he's trying to say is that it's being looked in to, but from the way that quote was worded it isn't going to be any time soon.
Since no one has really said it beyond going IT'S BEING MISQUOTED!
Here's the jist of the conversation:
1.) Dev said a few days ago class balance changes are coming with the gauntlgrym patch
2.) Yesterday thread was made *****ing, same dev notes that there is currently no defined list of changes because frankly, they don't know what's being changed yet (aka, "we don't want to make promises we might not be able to keep")
3.) People screamed at the dev for being irresponsible and HOW CAN YOU NOT KNOW WHAT CHANGES YOU ARE MAKING AT THIS POINT.
4.) Dev Clarifies, it's not that changes aren't made, but simply they're still working out the specifics of how they're doing it (which makes sense, a lot of the issues go beyond simple numbers -- GWF for example use is hindered by encounter design (Why bring aoe dps when a wizard can insta-gib, you can't just.. remove the ability to knock mobs off without redesigning the encounter room), but he'll tell us as soon as he knows.
5.) People continue *****ing, specifically about.. well see: this thread. HOW HARD IS IT TO FIX AGRO IT'S JUST NUMBERS.
6.) Dev makes that post. "It's complicated, bro."
7.) This thread was made taking 6.) out of context in order to stir up flames.
0
joukuoj32Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
As always, you can keep an eye on our latest changes in the Patch Notes. We’ve made a lot of progress and still have a long way to go. Here’s a short list of some of the top things our team has been working on lately — things we hope to have updates on very soon:
Network performance and overall connection stability
Queue system issues (wait times, teleportation issues, group composition)
Party Loot issues (better allowing players to win the items they legitimately need)
Making gear progression feel more visually and mechanically meaningful
Improving the PvP system to better reward participation
Aggro and threat balancing
Auction house bug fixes and UI improvements
Monitoring the economy to ensure that appropriate actions are taken to remove any remaining illegitimately gained currency and items
You obviously didn't read my post correctly, or I described it poorly. I didn't just hold threat on 1 Mob. I held threat on the boss as well as all of the adds with no issues. No more then 1-2 adds was free at any time, and only because the dragons hit box is huge so it made it a pain to target them.
You can easily maintain threat on more then 5 mobs. You can only taunt 5 mobs at a time with your AoE taunt, but you also have threatening charge which is a no cooldown small radius AoE taunt, and your single target taunt which only has animation cooldown.
As far as T2 dungeons, I've seen both sides of the spectrum. I've seen (albeit very few) GF's that maintain fantastic agro on bosses and 90+% of the adds. I've also seen (the majority) of GF's that struggle to maintain agro of the boss.
As for GF's that feel they need to build dps to maintain threat, what makes you think you are pro? If you can only hold threat through dealing damage, how effective are you at peeling mobs that you aren't hitting? How many more potions do you go through? How reliant are you on avoiding damage even if it means your dps/cleric have to kite longer because you need to avoid the red circle because your guard meter is empty and you built offensively?
The reality is, relying on dps to maintain threat is a crutch when you can build defensively maintaining just as much if not more threat and allow your dps to do their job without having to try to avoid damage which ultimately boosts the groups damage more then what you bring to the table as an individual.
Aahaha this guy is a pro.................pro troll. I mean the guy thinks threatening rush is a taunt. /Golfclap You beat the game and the system my friend.
What about this way to fix it - no 2 Clerics in one group for T1 and T2 Dungeons (Game system preventing the group to enter the dungeon, if they have more than 1 cleric in group) ? Should make tanks needed again, shouldn't it?
Also: I found tank-companions very annoying. They seem to taunt mobs very often (had one group with 2 tank companions, and when I asked for they use a different companion, they just ignored me - though might be also they seemed not to be english native speakers, so not sure if they understood what I said).
Personally I think anyways, it should be done as in SWTOR - you enter a dungeon, your companion gets dismissed.
What about this way to fix it - no 2 Clerics in one group for T1 and T2 Dungeons (Game system preventing the group to enter the dungeon, if they have more than 1 cleric in group) ? Should make tanks needed again, shouldn't it?
Also: I found tank-companions very annoying. They seem to taunt mobs very often (had one group with 2 tank companions, and when I asked for they use a different companion, they just ignored me - though might be also they seemed not to be english native speakers, so not sure if they understood what I said).
Personally I think anyways, it should be done as in SWTOR - you enter a dungeon, your companion gets dismissed.
If all that changes is AS stacking, it won't do much of any good. I'm willing to bet that any boss you can do with GF, GWF, DC, TR, and CW in group together can be 4 manned without the GF. All it would do is make the fight take longer since the TR won't have CA and the group misses out on the eh single target GF dps.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
You've proved my point. The gravy as you call it does in fact speed up your DPS thus making it faster. At what point did I say I was trying to hold aggro away from that. As for clearing trash yes it is quick but if you have to hit them one at a time suddenly it is not.
Also how is anyone else playing a dungeon faster than me in anyway impacting in my play experience. Maybe they get through a boss faster than me and maybe I get through trash faster than them. As long as my party and I enjoy what we are doing and still completing what we attempt and getting our loot why is it wrong?
Lastly and I state this is my opinion: Knocking stuff off of ledges has always been a DnD tactic and the fact that we have so many powers that knock back and the opportunity to use them is awesome. I believe it is a legitimate tactic which is in fact highlighted at least twice during questing by the NPCs parties you fight trying to do the same thing to you. Did they perhaps over do it and under estimate the player base, yes, but that doesn't make it an exploit that makes it bad design.
You've proved my point. The gravy as you call it does in fact speed up your DPS thus making it faster. At what point did I say I was trying to hold aggro away from that. As for clearing trash yes it is quick but if you have to hit them one at a time suddenly it is not.
I'm going to try and spell this out for you without being rude. Trash doesn't matter. It's a non-issue. Minions die instantly, stronger add's die in seconds to one TR burning them while keeping them dazed the entire time. Your 10% does up my damage, but I don't need your 10% and would sacrifice you being in the group for another class that does AoE damage that exceeds your damage plus your 10%. Like, I dunno, a CW. I finished a Caverns of Karrundax last night with 4 million more damage than the next person, who was also a rogue. Is that all that matters in that fight? Certainly not. But the GF was completely useless. We could have used another CW in his place for all the good he was doing.
Also how is anyone else playing a dungeon faster than me in anyway impacting in my play experience. Maybe they get through a boss faster than me and maybe I get through trash faster than them. As long as my party and I enjoy what we are doing and still completing what we attempt and getting our loot why is it wrong?
You must have misread me. I said that you can clear the dungeons with a balanced group. If you don't mind doing one dungeon a day at most, and don't mind that one dungeon taking a few hours, than great. Just know that it's doable in a half hour or less, which means you could have earned a lot more AD and received a lot more purples and moved on to the next dungeon tier faster. It's your choice if you want to slow boat it, and if you have a group that's ok with that more power to you. You must realize that you are a special snowflake if you have four friends and a balanced premade group. You are in the vast minority.
Lastly and I state this is my opinion: Knocking stuff off of ledges has always been a DnD tactic and the fact that we have so many powers that knock back and the opportunity to use them is awesome. I believe it is a legitimate tactic which is in fact highlighted at least twice during questing by the NPCs parties you fight trying to do the same thing to you. Did they perhaps over do it and under estimate the player base, yes, but that doesn't make it an exploit that makes it bad design.
This is the reason why people don't want you in certain dungeons. A CW does everything you just listed far better than your GF. On top of that, if all the add's are dead over a cliff what exactly are you supposed to tank? The big add/monster that the TR just killed in under ten seconds flat? (Well within their stealth window.)
Also, saying it's 'always been a valid tactic in D&D' is great and all, but are you comparing this to table top? If so, your'e deluded. If you're comparing it to DDO, then show me where you could ever knock things off a ledge during the major boss fights. Hell, compare it do the original Neverwinter Nights. Do you remember ever knocking someone off a cliff, let alone hordes of drow? It didn't exist in those games, and frankly it shouldn't exist in this one either. At the very least, it's nice that not every fight allows you to do this. However, in the fights where you can know that you will never be picked over another DC/CW/TR. You don't even figure in the equation.
I mean, hell, a Rogue does better tanking the last boss in Spellplague than you could ever hope to do. What do GF's do during that fight anyway? Watch? Their role is nonexistent.
It boils down to the fact that control trumps defense in Neverwinter in 95% of situations, and in the 5% where control can't cut it stacking Astral Shield does. This is par for the course in a Crytpic game. Their control classes, and their CC in general, has always been and will always be broken.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
spacejew - Your ego is getting in the way of seeing beyond it. Really careless about your double DC, Double CW / TR team comp and that you can clear it in 30 minutes. The average player is lucky if they can clear it in 1hr.
Go back to your team and continue to put items on the AH.
@spacejew: You're still saying the same thing as I pointed out. I made the point that utility trump straight DPS. You've just made the same point again. You also agree with me that you don't need the straight DPS to clear any instance.
For the second party you completely failed to answer my question. How is some other group clearing an instance faster impacting on my play experience if we still manage to complete it. Most casual gamer's will only go in for one dungeon so if it takes them 30 minutes great if it takes them an hour that is still the time they were going to play for. You did mention that the TR's make better tanks yet I've seen just as many videos of GFs and GWF making runs far easier for a group than a TR would have. If anything CW are right now in my opinion the must have class in any group.
Lastly this game is based on table top play, not DDO, not NWN so yes I should be comparing it to its source. In 4e control trumps DPS every time. Just like I said in my first post.
PS. I just noticed as DK pointed out your using a bugged mechanic which makes a whole lot of difference. Kind of makes it look like you don't really have a valid opinion since you can't say you've actually experienced things.
I can see beyond it, it's all doable with one of each class. It's purely an efficiency argument. Why even say anything needs to be changed if you can already do the content without any cheese what-so-ever? The cheese is there for people that either:
A) Want to get AD super fast and/or faceroll content.
Are incapable of completing dungeons normally.
Dungeons are harder doing it the 'right' way. That is true. In Neverwinter, if you can't complete them the 'right' way it's easier and faster to do it the 'wrong' way. Even then, it's completely doable. The difficulty level in Neverwinter isn't a high bar, if you can't get over it I'm not sure what MMO to point you at that's easier. This is not ego, it's a fact among the MMO's I've played. (And I've played most of them.)
Even then, stacking Astral Shield is hard to pass up. If you're running dungeons from the queue, it's a better chance of success not including fighters. I don't know if this is because most fighters are terrible, or if the dungeon mechanics are off, or if it's certain abilities being out-of-tune as far as bang for your buck. In all probably, it's all of them to some extent or another. The fact remains that the game is far easier if you don't include fighters in your roster. It's less true if the fighter is more skilled or geared than the alternative, but even then it's pretty true.
EDIT:
I have no idea what bugged mechanic you're referring to me using. Double clerics stacking AS? I don't care if it's a bug or not, it's the way to clear content at the moment. I can hardly call two classes stacking the abilities they come with stock, that function with stacking whether they should or not, as any kind of bug or exploit. When they fix it, because they will, fighters might have a chance in pugs.
For that matter, why don't rogue's bleeds stack? If they did you can bet your behind that every group would have two TR since the bleed is what 60% of their overall damage?
2nd EDIT:
Lastly this game is based on table top play, not DDO, not NWN so yes I should be comparing it to its source. In 4e control trumps DPS every time. Just like I said in my first post.
If you can't see why table top rules do not work for online video games than I have nothing more to say to you on the subject. Do you think permadeath, permanent level drain, inescapable death, and role play have a place in Neverwinter? You might wish they did, but they do not. I compare it to the other major franchise games using D&D, and none of them thought that bypassing the majority of the content through ledge killing was acceptable. If your table top game does it that way, great, but that is not how video games work. Or it shouldn't be, anyway.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Anyway. The issue is that pubs only care about efficiency, and the efficiency (e.g., time for money) gap between including a fighter and not including a fighter is massive, especially if the pubs or the fighter are at a lower skill level. And if you're using the queue, said pubs for whatever poorly-designed reason have the ability to eject you willy-nilly simply because of their desire to have only the fastest runs.
The solution would be to retool encounters so that fighters are required, or offer some kind of utility that makes fights significantly faster and easier with them around like other classes have, as opposed to more challenging, difficult, and worst of all, slow.
Anyway. The issue is that pubs only care about efficiency, and the efficiency (e.g., time for money) gap between including a fighter and not including a fighter is massive...
Exactly this.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
This thread is ridiculous. GFs are the strongest dps class in the game if build correctly (check Rokuthy his build), and when build as utility tank can hold very decent aggro and be a very strong asset to the team. I'll give you a few examples where a GF build as tank (not hybrid dps) can carry the entire group:
Mad Dragon: tank the dragon and 2 erinyes or the shocktrooper devil at the same time so the rest of the group has a very easy time.
Frozen Hearth last boss: Pick up all the adds with your mark (even the archers) kite them and block archer shots while using utility spells to help out the group even further. (Ask your healer to switch to dps, the party should not take damage anyway because they should dodge aoe)
Its people like you that do not understand mechanics and tactics that give us a bad name. Calling one of the strongest classes the worst class just exposes how delusional you are.
On a side note control wizards really are much more useful then rogues, rogues only deal single target damage while fights are about control which other classes (especially CWs GFs and clerics) can deliver so much better. If you think tricksters are OP in PvE you should think again.
On a side note control wizards really are much more useful then rogues, rogues only deal single target damage while fights are about control which other classes (especially CWs GFs and clerics) can deliver so much better. If you think tricksters are OP in PvE you should think again.
Mmmhmm...and how long do your Cavern runs take without a rogue? That's what I thought. There isn't really a cookie-cutter group setup for every dungeon, but the double DC is the real elephant in the room.
I guess they aren't OP when they provide the DPS of both your CW combined.
Those hit points don't exist in a vaccum, that equals dead things in the dungeon. You can control them to death, if you want to double your run time, but why would you? It provides more chances to screw up and die versus simply killing them to death with damage. Again, the add's don't really matter as long as they're gone. A boss fight without a TR would be agonizingly slow.
Even then, double CW tossing add's off platforms is more effective than bringing a GWF. It's that much better.
EDIT:
I never said the GF is the worst class. Being useless is different from being bad. Being bad means you can improve, being useless means your role is simply not required. Even if you're great at it, if it isn't really needed than...what?
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Almost all the harder tier 2 dungeons require aoe damage and control which a trickster does not bring. Ever tried spellplague without CW? And without rogue? What about the Dreadvault? All require CWs and more CWs=less chance of wipes. None require tricksters.
Gfs are far from useless, a proper GF can fill the roll of the second cleric, and certain fights are even easier with a GF then with a second cleric. A dps hybrid GF can also outdps a trickster or CW while bringing tankyness and aoe. Please don't call a GF useless if your ignorant on the subject.
Almost all the harder tier 2 dungeons require aoe damage and control which a trickster does not bring. Ever tried spellplague without CW? And without rogue? What about the Dreadvault? All require CWs and more CWs=less chance of wipes. None require tricksters.
Gfs are far from useless, a proper GF can fill the roll of the second cleric, and certain fights are even easier with a GF then with a second cleric. A dps hybrid GF can also outdps a trickster or CW while bringing tankyness and aoe. Please don't call a GF useless if your ignorant on the subject.
You just hit the nail on the head for why people bring DC/CW/TR. Damage and control, you say. You say it, but you don't seem to process it. If I had to pick a 'worst' class in Neverwinter, it would not be the GF. It would be the GWF.
And yes, I have done Spellplague without a GF. I don't know why you would bring a GF to that fight. Maybe leading up to the boss, maybe, but the end boss? What function does he serve? A rogue has no issues holding his aggro while dodging anything he can throw out. Meanwhile, the add's are in the sink, instagibbed.
Do you really believe that GF does higher single target damage than a rogue with equal skill and gear? Honestly? If you're making that claim, I'd love to see your parses.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Try to read my post again please, I did not say you need a GF in spellplague I said you need a CW. Check Rokuthy's hybrid dps build if your intrested in GF dps ( I can not garantee it will outdps a trickster in a straight single target dps race I do however know its brings much more room for error and sustain). If you prefer to remain ignorant by for example not reading posts properly then its your choice.
You would bring a GF to spellplague to tank/kite none cc-able adds and soak/migtate party damage. the same reason you would bring a cleric really and both do a fine job.
(When I spoke about someone calling a GF the worst class I did not mean you, you however called it a useless class which clearly is incorrect)
Now get back to your thieves den and make a thread where you can boast about your oh so huge dps.
My Guardian is level 36 now. And I'm hoping that by the time 60 something's buffed and/or fixed. But I think it's pretty silly of me to just hope something gets fixed after a very long time it's discouraging So I should go with what is better now than later. Yea?
Comments
Since no one has really said it beyond going IT'S BEING MISQUOTED!
Here's the jist of the conversation:
1.) Dev said a few days ago class balance changes are coming with the gauntlgrym patch
2.) Yesterday thread was made *****ing, same dev notes that there is currently no defined list of changes because frankly, they don't know what's being changed yet (aka, "we don't want to make promises we might not be able to keep")
3.) People screamed at the dev for being irresponsible and HOW CAN YOU NOT KNOW WHAT CHANGES YOU ARE MAKING AT THIS POINT.
4.) Dev Clarifies, it's not that changes aren't made, but simply they're still working out the specifics of how they're doing it (which makes sense, a lot of the issues go beyond simple numbers -- GWF for example use is hindered by encounter design (Why bring aoe dps when a wizard can insta-gib, you can't just.. remove the ability to knock mobs off without redesigning the encounter room), but he'll tell us as soon as he knows.
5.) People continue *****ing, specifically about.. well see: this thread. HOW HARD IS IT TO FIX AGRO IT'S JUST NUMBERS.
6.) Dev makes that post. "It's complicated, bro."
7.) This thread was made taking 6.) out of context in order to stir up flames.
Network performance and overall connection stability
Queue system issues (wait times, teleportation issues, group composition)
Party Loot issues (better allowing players to win the items they legitimately need)
Making gear progression feel more visually and mechanically meaningful
Improving the PvP system to better reward participation
Aggro and threat balancing
Auction house bug fixes and UI improvements
Monitoring the economy to ensure that appropriate actions are taken to remove any remaining illegitimately gained currency and items
Aahaha this guy is a pro.................pro troll. I mean the guy thinks threatening rush is a taunt. /Golfclap You beat the game and the system my friend.
Also: I found tank-companions very annoying. They seem to taunt mobs very often (had one group with 2 tank companions, and when I asked for they use a different companion, they just ignored me - though might be also they seemed not to be english native speakers, so not sure if they understood what I said).
Personally I think anyways, it should be done as in SWTOR - you enter a dungeon, your companion gets dismissed.
If all that changes is AS stacking, it won't do much of any good. I'm willing to bet that any boss you can do with GF, GWF, DC, TR, and CW in group together can be 4 manned without the GF. All it would do is make the fight take longer since the TR won't have CA and the group misses out on the eh single target GF dps.
Also how is anyone else playing a dungeon faster than me in anyway impacting in my play experience. Maybe they get through a boss faster than me and maybe I get through trash faster than them. As long as my party and I enjoy what we are doing and still completing what we attempt and getting our loot why is it wrong?
Lastly and I state this is my opinion: Knocking stuff off of ledges has always been a DnD tactic and the fact that we have so many powers that knock back and the opportunity to use them is awesome. I believe it is a legitimate tactic which is in fact highlighted at least twice during questing by the NPCs parties you fight trying to do the same thing to you. Did they perhaps over do it and under estimate the player base, yes, but that doesn't make it an exploit that makes it bad design.
I'm going to try and spell this out for you without being rude. Trash doesn't matter. It's a non-issue. Minions die instantly, stronger add's die in seconds to one TR burning them while keeping them dazed the entire time. Your 10% does up my damage, but I don't need your 10% and would sacrifice you being in the group for another class that does AoE damage that exceeds your damage plus your 10%. Like, I dunno, a CW. I finished a Caverns of Karrundax last night with 4 million more damage than the next person, who was also a rogue. Is that all that matters in that fight? Certainly not. But the GF was completely useless. We could have used another CW in his place for all the good he was doing.
You must have misread me. I said that you can clear the dungeons with a balanced group. If you don't mind doing one dungeon a day at most, and don't mind that one dungeon taking a few hours, than great. Just know that it's doable in a half hour or less, which means you could have earned a lot more AD and received a lot more purples and moved on to the next dungeon tier faster. It's your choice if you want to slow boat it, and if you have a group that's ok with that more power to you. You must realize that you are a special snowflake if you have four friends and a balanced premade group. You are in the vast minority.
This is the reason why people don't want you in certain dungeons. A CW does everything you just listed far better than your GF. On top of that, if all the add's are dead over a cliff what exactly are you supposed to tank? The big add/monster that the TR just killed in under ten seconds flat? (Well within their stealth window.)
Also, saying it's 'always been a valid tactic in D&D' is great and all, but are you comparing this to table top? If so, your'e deluded. If you're comparing it to DDO, then show me where you could ever knock things off a ledge during the major boss fights. Hell, compare it do the original Neverwinter Nights. Do you remember ever knocking someone off a cliff, let alone hordes of drow? It didn't exist in those games, and frankly it shouldn't exist in this one either. At the very least, it's nice that not every fight allows you to do this. However, in the fights where you can know that you will never be picked over another DC/CW/TR. You don't even figure in the equation.
I mean, hell, a Rogue does better tanking the last boss in Spellplague than you could ever hope to do. What do GF's do during that fight anyway? Watch? Their role is nonexistent.
It boils down to the fact that control trumps defense in Neverwinter in 95% of situations, and in the 5% where control can't cut it stacking Astral Shield does. This is par for the course in a Crytpic game. Their control classes, and their CC in general, has always been and will always be broken.
Go back to your team and continue to put items on the AH.
Thanks,
For the second party you completely failed to answer my question. How is some other group clearing an instance faster impacting on my play experience if we still manage to complete it. Most casual gamer's will only go in for one dungeon so if it takes them 30 minutes great if it takes them an hour that is still the time they were going to play for. You did mention that the TR's make better tanks yet I've seen just as many videos of GFs and GWF making runs far easier for a group than a TR would have. If anything CW are right now in my opinion the must have class in any group.
Lastly this game is based on table top play, not DDO, not NWN so yes I should be comparing it to its source. In 4e control trumps DPS every time. Just like I said in my first post.
PS. I just noticed as DK pointed out your using a bugged mechanic which makes a whole lot of difference. Kind of makes it look like you don't really have a valid opinion since you can't say you've actually experienced things.
A) Want to get AD super fast and/or faceroll content.
Dungeons are harder doing it the 'right' way. That is true. In Neverwinter, if you can't complete them the 'right' way it's easier and faster to do it the 'wrong' way. Even then, it's completely doable. The difficulty level in Neverwinter isn't a high bar, if you can't get over it I'm not sure what MMO to point you at that's easier. This is not ego, it's a fact among the MMO's I've played. (And I've played most of them.)
Even then, stacking Astral Shield is hard to pass up. If you're running dungeons from the queue, it's a better chance of success not including fighters. I don't know if this is because most fighters are terrible, or if the dungeon mechanics are off, or if it's certain abilities being out-of-tune as far as bang for your buck. In all probably, it's all of them to some extent or another. The fact remains that the game is far easier if you don't include fighters in your roster. It's less true if the fighter is more skilled or geared than the alternative, but even then it's pretty true.
EDIT:
I have no idea what bugged mechanic you're referring to me using. Double clerics stacking AS? I don't care if it's a bug or not, it's the way to clear content at the moment. I can hardly call two classes stacking the abilities they come with stock, that function with stacking whether they should or not, as any kind of bug or exploit. When they fix it, because they will, fighters might have a chance in pugs.
For that matter, why don't rogue's bleeds stack? If they did you can bet your behind that every group would have two TR since the bleed is what 60% of their overall damage?
2nd EDIT:
If you can't see why table top rules do not work for online video games than I have nothing more to say to you on the subject. Do you think permadeath, permanent level drain, inescapable death, and role play have a place in Neverwinter? You might wish they did, but they do not. I compare it to the other major franchise games using D&D, and none of them thought that bypassing the majority of the content through ledge killing was acceptable. If your table top game does it that way, great, but that is not how video games work. Or it shouldn't be, anyway.
Anyway. The issue is that pubs only care about efficiency, and the efficiency (e.g., time for money) gap between including a fighter and not including a fighter is massive, especially if the pubs or the fighter are at a lower skill level. And if you're using the queue, said pubs for whatever poorly-designed reason have the ability to eject you willy-nilly simply because of their desire to have only the fastest runs.
The solution would be to retool encounters so that fighters are required, or offer some kind of utility that makes fights significantly faster and easier with them around like other classes have, as opposed to more challenging, difficult, and worst of all, slow.
Exactly this.
Mad Dragon: tank the dragon and 2 erinyes or the shocktrooper devil at the same time so the rest of the group has a very easy time.
Frozen Hearth last boss: Pick up all the adds with your mark (even the archers) kite them and block archer shots while using utility spells to help out the group even further. (Ask your healer to switch to dps, the party should not take damage anyway because they should dodge aoe)
Its people like you that do not understand mechanics and tactics that give us a bad name. Calling one of the strongest classes the worst class just exposes how delusional you are.
On a side note control wizards really are much more useful then rogues, rogues only deal single target damage while fights are about control which other classes (especially CWs GFs and clerics) can deliver so much better. If you think tricksters are OP in PvE you should think again.
Mmmhmm...and how long do your Cavern runs take without a rogue? That's what I thought. There isn't really a cookie-cutter group setup for every dungeon, but the double DC is the real elephant in the room.
I guess they aren't OP when they provide the DPS of both your CW combined.
Those hit points don't exist in a vaccum, that equals dead things in the dungeon. You can control them to death, if you want to double your run time, but why would you? It provides more chances to screw up and die versus simply killing them to death with damage. Again, the add's don't really matter as long as they're gone. A boss fight without a TR would be agonizingly slow.
Even then, double CW tossing add's off platforms is more effective than bringing a GWF. It's that much better.
EDIT:
I never said the GF is the worst class. Being useless is different from being bad. Being bad means you can improve, being useless means your role is simply not required. Even if you're great at it, if it isn't really needed than...what?
Human is a decent choice for every class cause of the 3 extra heroic feats
Gfs are far from useless, a proper GF can fill the roll of the second cleric, and certain fights are even easier with a GF then with a second cleric. A dps hybrid GF can also outdps a trickster or CW while bringing tankyness and aoe. Please don't call a GF useless if your ignorant on the subject.
That joke made me die a little inside
You just hit the nail on the head for why people bring DC/CW/TR. Damage and control, you say. You say it, but you don't seem to process it. If I had to pick a 'worst' class in Neverwinter, it would not be the GF. It would be the GWF.
And yes, I have done Spellplague without a GF. I don't know why you would bring a GF to that fight. Maybe leading up to the boss, maybe, but the end boss? What function does he serve? A rogue has no issues holding his aggro while dodging anything he can throw out. Meanwhile, the add's are in the sink, instagibbed.
Do you really believe that GF does higher single target damage than a rogue with equal skill and gear? Honestly? If you're making that claim, I'd love to see your parses.
You would bring a GF to spellplague to tank/kite none cc-able adds and soak/migtate party damage. the same reason you would bring a cleric really and both do a fine job.
(When I spoke about someone calling a GF the worst class I did not mean you, you however called it a useless class which clearly is incorrect)
Now get back to your thieves den and make a thread where you can boast about your oh so huge dps.