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Official - GF Threat NOT Getting Fixed
cihuacoatl
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1 Arc User
dezstravus wrote: »Aggro is a more complex subject - I don't have a lot of info regarding that right now but I do know that that feedback regarding tanking/healing aggro is something the team is looking at. Right now there are no concrete plans regarding a specific change, but it is something that is being reviewed. Thanks for clarifying.
While I am upset about this.... but I saw it coming...
In the meantime I am going to roll a Cleric so I can Tank.
The question is are you going to reroll, quit, or stick with it?
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The Seeker - 60 DC (11.5k GS)
Faithless - 60 CW (10k GS)
Combat arena. Adjustable challenge.
Difficulty: Adjustable easy - very hard
Duration: Adjustable 1 - 25min
"I saw it coming..." No you didn't. If you had, you would've rerolled a long time ago and saved us from reading this pointless thread.
I did.... reroll a long time ago. Though I had some hope that they might fix GF. I like playing tanks in games. This game honestly has the most messed up tanking system in any game I have played. I have played a LOT of MMOs and the only game I think was worse might be Rift. (Assuming you were a Rogue Tank.)
The problem is that GF have no real roll in a group. Why have a GF when you can bring 2 clerics. We have the worse DPS in the game. While we are the best Tanks... if we have nothing to tank it means nothing. Rogues and other classes with dodge can just as easily tank a Boss better than a GF in nearly every every right.
It is nearly impossible to get a CN group with a GF. Unless your guild carries you...
On an unrelated note, Cryptic should have their offices checked for chemical leaks more often.
GF group roles:
1. Getting yelled at for needing on dps gear.
2. Being a convenient kick target when the queue puts 5 dps in a group.
3. Exposing rogues as being terrible in some fashion by beating them handily on the damage done page.
He's probably right. A metric boatload of the aggro management the GF doesn't have doesn't seem to be within our own abilities, rather, it's in other stuff. Heal threat appears to easily be double the threat of DPS. Many mobs, on occasion(as in, the same damned mob doesn't always do it), fixate or choose their target based on....well, nobody seems to be able to figure out what.
It's very possible that they're sitting there with a threat meter in the development room scratching their heads, trying to figure out why the heck we're hanging at triple the threat of the rest of the group but not getting aggro. Making the base assumption that mark actually does what it's supposed to, I think we've all seen it..............lord knows I'm not the only one here that's marked a mob(or three), then hacked away at it's back until it was dead without it ever turning regardless of what the rest of the group did, right?
Of course, when we finally DO get everything to turn on us that we think we should be out threating, we'll be right back here wanting a big ole' guard and mitigation buff, but that's another story.
So in other words, you're useless and slowing down the group. I bet you're not even 60 or running the harder T2 cause you're doing it wrong.
Meaning, "we're not ready to fix it, but we'll get to it eventually."
I never even come close to CW or TR in T2 runs in DPS. I heard a few people stating that they top the DPS meters. Assuming everyone is at the same Gear Score (10k Rogue == 12k GF for example). What are you all running that pushes out that much DPS.
I mean if I run a T1 for kicks I can out DPS some CW with around 7k GS however this also requires me to pull multi rooms and get a serveral second head start on DPS before they arrive. Meaning its not a true representation of CW vs TR vs GF DPS. Heck I am often below GWF though a GWF with a good weapon are AOE beasts.
10k GS on any class is not equal to a 12k gs GF
13,5k is about 10k gear score without our conqueror passive, so that's what you should be comparing at the very least
I'm at 14,6k GS full timeless myself and am usually only beaten in damage by the better rogues.
Timeless is the best dps set hands down.
People all over the forum are praising Stalwart Bulwark, but that set simply does not compare to the easy to apply Timeless effect and the better offensive stats on Timeless.
As for guardian, I bring much more to the group than a rogue.
Unlike people on the forums make it out to be I can initiate/tank/hold most (if not all) of the adds and bosses.
I do way more aoe damage in situations that need aoe.
Into the fray and lots of knockdowns with daily & encounter, just make add control a lot easier, yet you have someone that can leave aggro on himself unlike CW's that get 1 shot by bigger monsters.
I make a 2nd cleric unnecessary, by keeping enough aggro and by using my cc, increasing overall dps while not really sacrificing our sustain.
I do not roll need on rogue stuff.
I do not roll need on cleric stuff.
I do not roll need on cw stuff.
I do not roll need on GWF stuff.
I'd take a CW over a rogue any day btw.
Tbh Rogue is the most useless class, as the only thing it brings to the table is damage.
Once you have more utility, everyone's damage can be applied much easier, thus overall party damage is done much faster and you will not miss a rogue ever again, yet your control over the fight will be much better.
Rogues are just good for smokebomb and the 5% crit chance party buff, without those 2 things they really would be useless in a party.
Combat arena. Adjustable challenge.
Difficulty: Adjustable easy - very hard
Duration: Adjustable 1 - 25min
Nevermind that I've seen GF do incredible damage numbers. If you built for defense/deflect, it's probably the reason why you never get aggro. Know what gets aggro? Massive amounts of damage. Massive amounts of damage and a mark? Even better.
If I were you I'd be a lot more pissed that rogue's are better tanks than the GF on boss fights if a smart player is behind the keyboard.
EDIT:
Oh really? They aren't useful for smoking a bosses health faster than the rest of the party can deal with the add's it generates? Oh...I guess people just bring two of them for their crowd control utility. Has nothing to do with doing double the damage of any other class in the game. Sure, I've seen crappy rogues that get out DPS'ed by a GWF, but that is an issue of an incredibly bad Rogue with an incredibly good GWF. Rogue is a 'hold down your mouse button and win' class with Duelists Fury. A bleed that stacks ten times and crits as much per tick as a fully charged Reaping Strike against a single target? Sure, sounds legit.
TR is due for a massive nerf. Probably to Lurker's Assault, since it's insanely OP.
I tanked a level 50 Spellplague last night on a TR, no sweat. On a rogue DPS build. Yeah, that's sure intended.
The threat in Neverwinter may need a slight tweak but too many people expect a Tank and Spank style which DnD has never been. It's all about working together.
Also I second the CW over a TR every day of the week.
This would be true except that TR doesn't need your 10%. Is it gravy? Sure. But even without your 10% the TR still does twice the damage of the next person in the group while running with a balanced team. If anything, your 10% extra helps the TR lock aggro better than a GF could ever hope to do.
Trash fights don't matter at all. They just don't. The only fights that give even a slight challenge are boss fights, where having two TR burn the boss means that you spent half as long <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> around during the only fight that matters.
In a game where speed at dungeons = saving yourself real money by converting gear into AD, then AD into Zen, it's going to be a fact that people want to maximize this stuff. It's great that some slow people want to play the content, and they're right that it should be legitimate to do it, but know that there are groups out there doing a dungeon in a fraction of the time that own the entire AD market. This is through 'legitimate' play, too, we're not talking exploits where you one hit things. Why even bring a GWF when add's are instagib in the harder boss fights? Unless of course you believe that knocking enemies off ledges is an unintended exploit, of course.
Why are you making the game hard for yourself when doing it another way results in saving yourself honest-to-god real world cash? It even saves you time, in the end, although if you enjoy making the game harder on yourself kudos. I do too, it's why a GWF is still my main. That doesn't mean that I don't recognize that my TR is vastly better at dungeon running.
you sir, have given me hope for my 34 GF.
My first character is a DC. He's level 60 (11.4k GS).
My second character is a GF because I needed to know if it was actually possible to hold threat as one or if most just didn't understand how to hold threat. My GF is now level 46 and I find I have no issue holding threat. In some cases (Karrundax for example) I develop too much threat and it creates an issue. The group was not dps'ing down the mystics and because I had threat of the mystics and the boss, they just spam healed the boss from 20% back up to 90% before the dps killed them because no matter what I did, the mystics and the dragon followed me as I kept trying to move the dragon away from them to stop the healing.
I hold threat very simply. The best threat generating ability we have is the red X with the power/passives to support it. The longer the red X is up, the more threat is generated, and the red X only goes away when the mob actually hits you. Blocking prevents the mob from hitting you, and what I saw most GF's do when playing my DC is just use Guard until the meter runs out and then wait for it to refill. This is not effective because you are not timing it with your red X's to stack massive amounts of threat. I emphasized deflection as my primary goal so I can take the hits without using guard on cooldown so that guard is available when new mobs come for me to throw out my X's and then guard + rmb to stack threat at the beginning. In fact, if you go to the gameplay discussion there is even a post from someone else about a GF holding threat on the karrundax fight. That was me. My threat on everything was so strong, that I even stood at the complete opposite side of the map doing nothing but standing there for 30-45 seconds trying to reposition everything and they just kept range attacking me ignoring the group all together.
I have no dps traits/powers, so i'm not holding threat because of my massive dps like some say you need to accomplish it. I have built my GF purely as a tank. I chose to go with deflection because despite being sure of whether the 50% reduction to damage is applied before or after defense/ac, it is still a flat 50% reduction to damage. My deflection chance is currently 32%. This allows me to eat most damage without spiking in health if i'm not holding guard on cooldown. This also allows me to eat many of the red circles just to save guard for when a group of adds comes.
In short, no...I do not feel that threat is an issue, I simply feel it's a matter of people understanding the class. Even on Karrundax where the hit box of the dragon is ridiculously stupid causing you to have to maneuver drastically to get at adds, it can still be done.
Granted I have not reached end game on my GF, I do not feel it will be an issue.
That' exactly my opinion too. I'm 60 and I played as conqueror, protection and even tactical. You can keep the threat no matter the build as long you have similar gear value than your (hopefully, smart) party members.
Generating threat is not the issue.
I don't deny they could improve their threat system, but that's not the issue of the GF. I don't want a 1 button then faceroll tanking system.
GF just suffer from:
-Broken feats and power
-Misconception
-Poorly defined role mechanic.
-Underwhelming class feature, near useless.
-Current dungeons mechanic make it too easy for vulnerable classes to survive so they dont "need" a tank and adapt their gameplay into maximising DPS to make it faster.
-GF items set and feats (the working ones) favorise conqueror dps as being the most solid build, of course it's harder to compete against pure dps class when you get into end game. (When you dominated every other dps class for 60 level as conqueror ignoring the mark to tank).
Holding threat on 1 MOB non-epic and T1 has never been an issue.
The issues start when you hit T2 as a 11.4k GS DC you are well aware. For example Frozen... There are 20 MOBs running around trying to kill the DC. There is no need for the GF to be on the boss... anyone can easily dodge that AOE and besides that it is totally random in direction.
What happens in this fight? The Cleric handles the adds... this is my problem. The adds should be the GFs responsibility not the Cleric. We have one AOE threat generator that only hits a 1/2 dozen of them 20 MOBs.
If the GF cannot tank the adds and he is not needed to tank the boss. What is the purpose of the GF in this fight?
I have done this dozens of times and yes it can be done... we all have done it. Though do you need a GF at all? The answer is no... The funny thing is even if the GF could generate enough threat to hold all the MOBs GF have no ability to actually tank them. I have tried after killing the Boss many times... and died. After the boss dies everyone MUST die reset the adds in order to get your chest. This is a broken encounter. You shouldn't have to die when you 'win'.
That was just one example of just about every T2 instance there is... Up to about 5 MOBs you can maintain threat.. anymore than that forget it. Is this by design? I guess so... I just find it flusterating that I cannot protect my cleric and every fighter in the game requires kiting. With a few rare exceptions... (assuming people don't cheese bosses which is extremely common)
Don't bother explaining to the baddies, they will never understand. Any GF who specs to tank and think he is tanking anything worth a **** is too pro for us. They're carrying their team so they can clear stuff slower. I mean look at that guy, he's so pro none of the dps can pull aggro off of him. And that's coming from a guy who also has a 11.4k DC because GS means everything about your skills in this game!
Having the main mechanic being so unreliable and not being fixed is just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Would be funny to see a cleric with heals going out 60% of the time he pushes his button.
People are too stupid to read.
You obviously didn't read my post correctly, or I described it poorly. I didn't just hold threat on 1 Mob. I held threat on the boss as well as all of the adds with no issues. No more then 1-2 adds was free at any time, and only because the dragons hit box is huge so it made it a pain to target them.
You can easily maintain threat on more then 5 mobs. You can only taunt 5 mobs at a time with your AoE taunt, but you also have threatening charge which is a no cooldown small radius AoE taunt, and your single target taunt which only has animation cooldown.
As far as T2 dungeons, I've seen both sides of the spectrum. I've seen (albeit very few) GF's that maintain fantastic agro on bosses and 90+% of the adds. I've also seen (the majority) of GF's that struggle to maintain agro of the boss.
As for GF's that feel they need to build dps to maintain threat, what makes you think you are pro? If you can only hold threat through dealing damage, how effective are you at peeling mobs that you aren't hitting? How many more potions do you go through? How reliant are you on avoiding damage even if it means your dps/cleric have to kite longer because you need to avoid the red circle because your guard meter is empty and you built offensively?
The reality is, relying on dps to maintain threat is a crutch when you can build defensively maintaining just as much if not more threat and allow your dps to do their job without having to try to avoid damage which ultimately boosts the groups damage more then what you bring to the table as an individual.