Grouping tools in dire need of improvement

axer128 · May 2013

Reposted here since this is more a community-destroying issue:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?329361

Played all 3 beta weekends and now about a month of open beta, always grouped and yea the current grouping tools are the most broken part of an otherwise great game, they really need some attention. Sadly didn't see any improvement from beta 1 to 3 or open beta so hopefully they get some attention soon.

Major Issues:

1. Broken Instancing - Very frequently, we were not placed in the same instance as our party members. Even worse - upon attempting to switch to their instance - the # matching theirs most often does not appear in the list. So the only way for us to get together is often going through the list and finding a number that we all can get to, and doing so.. Then running back to wherever we were since it always teleport us to the nearest waypoint/zone-in/camp. Worse yet, with the new 2 minute cooldown on changing instances, we often can't even try, and instead have to jump around zones until we wind up together. (theres also a related bug where my screen always says my timer is 32 mins - tho it's visual only bug)

Further details: It seems like if we all enter a new area together, either with the instance selector option off, or just picking the default, as long as we enter within ~30 seconds of each other, it works ok and we enter the same new instance.. But any other scenario, it just fails and places us into a random instance, with seemingly no rhyme or reason to the # we get into.
EG: Any of the following results in us not being together:
- Crashed/Disconnected - log into a different instance (which happened very often for one party member, tho not others)
- Teleported to zone
- Entered some time later (greater then 30s after someone else)
- Invited after the fact (This should ideally give an option to instantly teleport to the party leaders instance, but does not)

Notably the wrong instances issue seems very slightly better since closed beta tho. We still end up in wrong instances frequently, but disconnects cause it less often.

So yea thats quite frustrating. But to make it worse:

2. Broken party bubble requirement: Most of the time, you cannot zone anywhere until you wait for your party members, even if they are in different instances. This is often not ideal.
Details:
Often, we are in protectors enclave, and want to go to a new zone/quest.. But we're all in different instances due to problem #1.. Yet maybe we just want to go quickly turn in some quests then return to the group going elsewhere. Or simply solo a very short quest while others are selling.. It's not possible without breaking the group.

Or if we do intend to group together and enter the same new instance, but want enter the same new area from different instances to save time - that should be allowed.

So while I do enjoy the aspect of forcing all players to be together for certain events (like zoning into boss fights, as ensures slower players can enjoy the end fight).. For these purposes, its a major flaw, not a useful feature.

While I think it should be left in, there needs to be some override option, at least while in public instances. EG: Party leader can right click himself and say "Allow solo zoning". This would allow the above scenarios. But not be available while the whole party is in a dungeon. (Tho those who may have gotten kicked out for whatever reason should always be able to re-enter, with the exception of perhaps some of the top lvl challenging content intended to be done in 1-go.)

3. Voice chat doesn't work on the "alt" mouse cursor screen or any other non-main combat screen.
Believe your aware of this and the other many issues with the built in voice chat like the multi-stacking party bar on the bottom if you enter multiple parties/voice rooms, or it just failing to work sometimes... Needs a lot of improvement, it should just work, all the time while in a party. Even on loadscreens.

4. Critical: Tools for forming a group, are completely useless
So the game does seemingly have an LFM (Looking for more) type system built in, but it's 100% un-usable in it's current form for a few reasons:

Limited to X groups, and every single group (and even solo players in most cases) is automatically set to advertising and open party, thus it very quickly fills and most groups never show up.
EG: I asked my party members to try to click my party when we need to reform (as we often do, due to bugs).. They can never find it, as it simply doesn't show up due to the limit.
Automatically set to advertised, open, public grouping is not ideal. Just playing with friend sand having some random stranger just join out of the blue screaming obscenities at you..
Or worse, some innocent player just testing the group tools seeing how they work joins.. Who you then kick - which causes that poor bloke to be kicked from the quest he has been working on for 50 min. Yea, should default to off.
Very limited options. Think I saw an option to let only my friends see me online... But no option to only let friends see my lfm.. Or only see friends LFMs.
Very bugged: The various options that are there, don't seem to work.
I tried the require requests with open group option, but people still got into my group without any requests. In addition, after changing that - I could not manually invite anyone either. No error, no message came up, just nothing happened upon invites, had to relog to clear.
Also tried putting a message in to list the dungeon I was setting up a group for.. But yea that never worked. One bug being it only allows 1 word, no spaces or non alphanumeric characters.. And another being it just never shows up for anyone anyways.

5. Group leaders have way too much power, and even worse - are (edit: Brokenly, see later post explaining how) assigned when using the dungeon finder.. This is a major annoyance to me.. As I often have 1-3 friends, but you are required to have 5 players for the finder. So I might have just 1 friend on, and manually invite 2 others, so now we have 4 but no tank. So we queue up to hopefully find one, and after I spent an 20+ mins of aggrevatingly sending manual tells due to broken group system, I suddenly find the group I put in all the work to form, has a new leader in the dungeon.

We proceed, then at the end said new leader kicks everyone from the group right before the final boss dies, taking all the loot for himself.

6. Queue system has severe bugs and issues that make us hate using it, but we are given literally zero alternative for epic dungeons and pvp.
List of issues in queues:

Group leader is ALWAYS assigned to a solo queue, and never given to preformed parties that are far more deserving.
Instances are locked down after ~ 2 minutes, meaning if anyone has to leave for any reason, they are gone for good and cannot be replaced. With some of the T2s epics taking upwards of 2-3 hours, this is unacceptable.
The insane and incredible power to kick players INSTANTLY is given to the leader. In non queues you actually get 60 seconds to stay in, the fact its 5 seconds in queues is terrible and makes no sense. Plus it should only allow a vote kick at best, not an instant.
If you accidently right click and leave - say trying to assign the lead or something - you are ejected and can never return. Some big red text warning when you do that should be injected.
Loot rules cannot be set and default to a fairly annoying system in dungeons with a lot of loot no one wants (random greens are completely worthless to people who frequently run T2s and have made plenty of diamonds/gold from selling our various pulls)
Bosses only drop 1 item (and a shard/seals), and there list of items is insanely massive, resulting in a very frustrating experience unless you run during delves. The difference in delves and regular runs is incredibly massive, and doesn't need to be. 2-3 drops and more specifically assigned loot to other bosses to create less diluted tables would be much more reasonable.

... So yea, not much fun. Two required fixes:
1. If you queue with 3 or more players, and have the star, you should keep that star. 2 players and 3 solo queueing, same deal keep it. 2 vs 2, it should be random, however there should also be an option to opt-in to be a leader.. With it defaulted off, as some just want to play a dungeon with a friend, but not necessarily lead it. Same goes for solo queuers, in 5 solo players queued, the only eligible leader should be one who opts-in. Players who put in the time and effort to form a party, should not be punished for that effort.

2. Group leader should have the power to kick players in public instances, but not dungeons/private ones. In the case of those, it should allow a group vote.

Take a look at Dungeons and Dragons online for a very high quality LFM and built in voice chat system.. If you can replicate it's to some degree, Neverwinter would be a lot more awesome.

Group tools are critical to building a strong community, so this really needs a lot of attention. I've seen great MMOs like TERA flounder and do way worse then they could of, simply because they have utterly garbage group tools (EG the game has a lfm system, that 99% of the playerbase don't know how to use as its so cumbersome, and not unlike neverwinters.. vs DDO, where the LFM system is king and for the vast majority of players, the #1 way they group, if not the only way... Which creates a very strong pick-up-group community where anyone can jump in a play without having to worry about having the time to form/join a guild to get anywhere, and over time can easily be sure the group they are joining will be a fun one - as they can at the bare minimum identify the leader, and his guild before joining (if not the entire group makeup if they just need 1 more).

Post open beta update:
It's as I feared really.. No good way to form a group outside of auto-queuing is resulting in a really terrible community.

Last 6 dungeons/skirmishes I queued for - not a single person typed or spoke a single word (cept for the 1 friend I was running them with sometimes). Almost feels like I'm playing with bots the devs just set up to fool me into thinking i'm playing an mmo. They have no emotion, no human feelings, no desire to interact, and importantly, no remorse as they constantly need on every item, regardless of what class it is for.

Plus these bot-players, always get the crown (leader) even when I form part of the party manually, preventing any action on my part to try to take control and encourage more sociable play.

Really don't get it either, a lot of them have direwolves/panthers, thus they obviously paid 60-200 dollars on an mmo, yet they make no attempt to make friends or even communicate with others. It's quite strange to me.

I think the sad state of the games grouping tools encourages this kind of behavior tho. Really need some attention.

1 Month update:
99% of players: Voice disabled, never type in party chat, will kick for petty reasons, demand all players use exploits to get loot faster..

the other 1%? Awesome people I've formed friendships with that make me love the game more. I only wish I had the tools that let me find more of these people. I believe they are out there, I just can't find them without huge unnecessary struggle atm with the tools presented to me now.

The game has to care before the players will start to care. Please start to care soon NW devs.

axer128 · May 2013

Another even worse scenario the other day:
Me and 2 guildies try to form a party manually for the icespire peak dungeon, no bites so we use the queue.

My friend/guildie crashes upon load, even tho I had formed the majority of the group manually, it gave the star to some random with a obscene name (not sure how he got thru the name filter).. He proceeded to immediately kick her out, spew obscenities for her not being here, and yea generally waste our time. Forced to leave, relog cuz it seems to bug if you leave, and reform.

Please address this asap.

axer128 · May 2013

mm great epics are qeueu only, and if you queue with 4 guildies, the 5th will always get the star. Utterly broken system. Please fix it.

kyllroy2 · May 2013

Axer, Thanks for moving the thread. I hope some of the items you listed are addressed. A friend joined me and just the instance jump to a random number threw us completely. I would think that a note on the map before traveling between zones to which instance you are heading might help.
We finally had to both go to Protectors Enclave to even get permission to party together. Is this intended? If so, I believe it strips players to interact socially in a really bad way. IMO a workaround to some of this is right here. Allow players to attempt to join in a party first, then check for full parties, full instances and so forth before denial.

jedizalm · May 2013

Sometimes, its not the queue systems fault when it comes to poor team setup, but it seems like you problem is the mechanics, not the formation.

I have a thread here about the formation issue.

The Real Problems

kyllroy2 · May 2013

jedizalm wrote: »

Sometimes, its not the queue systems fault when it comes to poor team setup, but it seems like you problem is the mechanics, not the formation.

I have a thread here about the formation issue.

The Real Problems

I don't agree. None of the grouping mechanic issues seem to be addressed which is my main concern.
I like Axers points and would submit that a Dev could update us on any efforts in this direction to smooth the process out.

jedizalm · May 2013

kyllroy2 wrote: »

I don't agree. None of the grouping mechanic issues seem to be addressed which is my main concern.
I like Axers points and would submit that a Dev could update us on any efforts in this direction to smooth the process out.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in your comprehension of what I posted.

I said Sometimes, its not the queue systems fault when it comes to poor team setup, but it seems like you problem is the mechanics, not the formation. and the point of my statement was here- it seems like you problem is the mechanics, not the formation.

Its cool, just know that I was posting a link to my thread, which is also about having problems with the gouping system, just not in the same way as OP.

axer128 · May 2013

Yea your so called real problems are created by the poor group tools.

Players will always go down the easiest route the devs lay out for them, and in this case it means not using the too-buggy voice chat, not caring about the random ppl in queues as they may never see them again, and just generally not being encouraged to play socially because the game doesn't care.

The game has to care first for the players to care.

kyllroy2 · May 2013

The game has to care first for the players to care.

Probably there are too many fixes in your OP for them to take action on, so there is no traction to get it moving.
If we could prioritize, what smaller number of issues would make the grouping system work if we could only get them to do it, (not that all of it couldn't eventually happen)?

jedizalm · May 2013

axer128 wrote: »

Yea your so called real problems are created by the poor group tools.

Players will always go down the easiest route the devs lay out for them, and in this case it means not using the too-buggy voice chat, not caring about the random ppl in queues as they may never see them again, and just generally not being encouraged to play socially because the game doesn't care.

The game has to care first for the players to care.

My issues are pretty standard for most mmos, as well as current problems within this mmo.

1. PvP is quicker. This might be a tool problem, I'll give you that, but its debatable.
2. Cleric/Tank aggro is broken. Not a party gathering issue, its players not wanting to play their class issue.
3. Cleric/Tank rarity. This is standard for all MMOs, and most MMOs that do have this issue dont have queues like this one.
4. Cleric/Tank blame game. This is sorta the 'I dont care' aspect you mentions, I'll give you that.

nicknameschmickname · May 2013

No, power just needs to be removed from the group leader like in WoW. We don't need groups of 4 friends queueing to get leader and kicking the one random at the end so they get no loot.

charononus · May 2013

Well written as usual Shade

pilf3r · May 2013

I originally had posted this in another thread but that thread has gone so off topic is not even funny, even one of the mods is misbehaving in it so I have decided to come add my post here with the hopes this thread will stay on track.

pilf3r wrote: »

It's good to see some one get this thread back on track, who cares if this is beta or not, so we can get our voice heard and maybe have a small chance they will implement something we all want included in the system.

I posted previously but I guess people were too busy arguing to maybe offer their own suggestions .

Lets recap and I will add in a few things I read in this thread.

We want to be able to put up a lfm showing, and mechanics we should have in the system:

* what quest we want to do ( I want to see the quest name in the lfm), I want to be able to select if it is a regular quest, a delve or epic dungeon
* what classes we want joining
* level range we are looking for
* a small comments line
* we want the ability to put the lfm back up even if inside a quest that way if someone drops or w/e they can be replaced
* we want parties to arrive in the same instance when they travel, not just dungeons
* if we are not in the same instance when we travel we all join up in the same one without the need to all be in the same instance already
*party leader gets to accept or reject those wanting to join the party
* whom ever FIRST starts the party is the party leader and has the option to "promote" someone else as party leader, useful if he has to afk etc
*no one can be kicked once in a quest/delve not even by the party leader, party leader can only kick before entering said dungeons/delves
* if party leader d/c or quits group the "star" is auto granted to the next person in the party

Haven't tried out voice chat yet so no comment on the in game system.

axer128 · May 2013

nicknameschmickname wrote: »

No, power just needs to be removed from the group leader like in WoW. We don't need groups of 4 friends queueing to get leader and kicking the one random at the end so they get no loot.

Yes we do. Because if they don't give me the lead at the start, I simply kicked them instantly instead, by leaving and re-queuing. 4 players instantly get a new 5th, the 5th that did not respond loses time.

It's not worth my time to risk it on a complete random when I hold the power of majority. The game shouldn't try to enforce power upon the minority either, 9 times out of 10 they don't want it anyways.

axer128 · May 2013

jedizalm wrote: »

My issues are pretty standard for most mmos, as well as current problems within this mmo.

1. PvP is quicker. This might be a tool problem, I'll give you that, but its debatable.
2. Cleric/Tank aggro is broken. Not a party gathering issue, its players not wanting to play their class issue.
3. Cleric/Tank rarity. This is standard for all MMOs, and most MMOs that do have this issue dont have queues like this one.
4. Cleric/Tank blame game. This is sorta the 'I dont care' aspect you mentions, I'll give you that.

Like I said, they are NOT standard, they are standard for mmos with poor grouping tools. None of those issues exist in DDO, because it has incredibly good tools.

1. With a proper LFM system, there will always be lots of LFMs for player to choose from to quickly get into a dungeon, and with far more reliability of it being completed due to stronger community bonds being created from knowing whos who. With all pug parties being completely random, grouping with the same player twice is very rare, and as such bonds are difficult to create.
2. It's not broken, it's just very difficult. Again with a stronger community, we can work past these challenges. I agree it shouldn't be so hard, but its not insurmountable, and not particularly related to this topic.
3. DDO does not have this issue, clerics and tanks are very much around in all LFMs.
4. Not related.

sdnever · May 2013

I agree the grouping system is lacking.

Surprised I haven't seen more people post this stuff. So many good comments get drowned out by the whiners... so sad.

axer128 · May 2013

sdnever wrote: »

I agree the grouping system is lacking.

Surprised I haven't seen more people post this stuff. So many good comments get drowned out by the whiners... so sad.

Yea the general forum scrolls a million posts of minute of mostly trivial and unimportant stuff, but serious important topics like this don't get much attention, =/

More of the same the last few days.. Queue with 4, 5th person is completely rude and has full control of our party, makes no sense.

axer128 · May 2013

Moreover:
All of this applies to pvp as well.

Preformed 3-4, random get the lead..

Plus the pvp bug with people not getting teleported in means very frequently we end up with a 5th, not in the zone, with the lead.. And 9 times outa 10, hes completely non responsive and/or has no idea what having the lead even means or why he wasnt ported in.

Really need a dev reply on this.

yasha00 · May 2013

Very detailed writeup, definitely needs to be looked at.

whisperofthemoon · May 2013

Party leader need to be able open party and invite new players in epic dungeons also, because if someone will leave at the end - it will make all team loose....

kyllroy2 · May 2013

What we have here is failure to communicate...(Cool Hand Luke)

Just to create our guild we are having major headaches in a) assembling in the proper area, b) assembling in the proper instance, c) Being the required level, d) enabling proper chat , and this is in a week long planning session with emails sent to our group.
Here's another example of pain:

I see my friend is logged on but busy at the moment: I jump to his zone. When I get there, I see that I can't join his instance due to it being full. I'm yakking at him and need options.
a) Do we both port to Protectors Enclave and hope the random instance choices we arrive in aren't also full? or
b) invite to party first wishing the transfer will shuffle us differently? or
c) One log out and back in for a new shuffle? or
d) look for a sparsely occupied, available instance to both transfer into?

I'm sure there are more possibilities to solve this problem, but having a single neutral zone to group with would help a ton. One zone to rule them all.....the party zone. Zone chat in that place could be useful and full parties transferring together should not upset the space time continuum or create black holes. :rolleyes:

axer128 · May 2013

kyllroy2 wrote: »

What we have here is failure to communicate...(Cool Hand Luke)

Just to create our guild we are having major headaches in a) assembling in the proper area, b) assembling in the proper instance, c) Being the required level, d) enabling proper chat , and this is in a week long planning session with emails sent to our group.
Here's another example of pain:

I see my friend is logged on but busy at the moment: I jump to his zone. When I get there, I see that I can't join his instance due to it being full. I'm yakking at him and need options.
a) Do we both port to Protectors Enclave and hope the random instance choices we arrive in aren't also full? or
b) invite to party first wishing the transfer will shuffle us differently? or
c) One log out and back in for a new shuffle? or
d) look for a sparsely occupied, available instance to both transfer into?

I'm sure there are more possibilities to solve this problem, but having a single neutral zone to group with would help a ton. One zone to rule them all.....the party zone. Zone chat in that place could be useful and full parties transferring together should not upset the space time continuum or create black holes. :rolleyes:

Yea we had that annoyance too when trying to get our guild together. Took a week or so of trying bleh.

And yea the simple solution to the instancing thing is to simply let party members join their leaders instance no matter what. No timer, doesn't matter if its full. I mean bypassing the timer could allow some shortcuts like zoning to areas faster, so setting something like a 1 hour cooldown on a timer bypass could be fine, but really just should not have to wait the moment you zone into an area anyways.. Should only be the timer AFTER you change, to prevent constant swapping (which can allow you to complete quests easier or other minor cheats).

I mean yea we will occasionally end up with overfill instances, but that won't cause any problems really. I mean they upd the cap on enclave instances from 100 to 150 in a patch and there wanst a hitch, if a few have 155 instead - that hardly will cause any trouble.

axer128 · May 2013

Yet another massive problem encountered today thanks to the awesome (and i mean that in the most sarcastic way) community these tools are creating:

PVP, 4 of us performed queueing up having fun:
round 1 and 2 are fine, i mean the 5th guy never said a word and constantly died without ever contributing, but thats fine, we didn't mind.

Round 3:
5th guy (Who under the current broken system - ALWAYS get the lead) spews obscenities and orders us around.. We of course do our own thing - he runs around doing nothing particularly useful and we easily win without his help.. He's not happy - but is happy to leech our skill at pvp and take the win , so he waits tell final seconds of the round before we are about to win - and kicks everyone of us - causing us to get no glory or items.

Yep.. He contributed zero, told us off, broke the terms of service, and this is the kind of guy the devs ALWAYS want to have the lead of a group.

Brilliant.

Thanks devs. Creating a awesome community with these tools we have.

I care about this community and want to see it prosper. But the game has to care before we really can care. Fix this please.

axer128 · May 2013

OP updated with more problems with the queue.

Also tried tweeting this thread to the devs as they seem active on that, but yea zero response =/

deistik · May 2013

I'll bump this simply because I feel it needs exposure. Random people being leaders of a mostly premade group isn't really acceptable.

axer128 · May 2013

deistik wrote: »

I'll bump this simply because I feel it needs exposure. Random people being leaders of a mostly premade group isn't really acceptable.

Yep. Seems like the games devs are working at a rapid pace, I'm just starting to wonder if they have their priorities straight.

They could focus on the minor gripe and minor bugs like archon shield giving too much AC, and fix those to ensure the players have the intended challenge and so on.. Which can result in a better, and therefore tiny bit more profitable game - sure.

Or they could address these major issues that will have a long term detrimental impact on the community, which if not fixed will only result in the inevitable:
- The majority of the friendly community closes its doors to puggers. Given the games encouragement to play non-sociably, they have no choice, resulting in a less friendly game to new players, and ultimately - Less profits for cryptic.

Create strong tools, a strong community, and ultimately a far more profitable game. I don't understand why they don't want that.

I mean I did notice the state of the game address mentioned queue fixes, which is great. But I sadly did not see any LFG/LFM improvements listed - which is really what's critical. Enforcing random-only group for puggers is not the best approach.

pnellesen · May 2013

Bump. Agree with everything in the op.

andyyypm · May 2013

Bump.

I think vote-kick would easily solve the problem, even if the lead is randomized... Yeah you would give the power to the 4 people that queue together.. But if those 4 people didn't want to play with the 5th person, they'd just leave the de party and make a new squad.. which would be basicaly the same, woudln't it?

sindofin · May 2013

I was impressed that this game had an automated grouping system for PvE instances at launch. But the current difficulty of endgame dungeons does not seem to fit the system very well. And with the discussed state of the manual grouping system, we are back to chat channel spam for pugs. How many decades of MMOs do we need until devs get a handle on proper grouping systems?

axer128 · May 2013

sindofin wrote: »

I was impressed that this game had an automated grouping system for PvE instances at launch. But the current difficulty of endgame dungeons does not seem to fit the system very well. And with the discussed state of the manual grouping system, we are back to chat channel spam for pugs. How many decades of MMOs do we need until devs get a handle on proper grouping systems?

Yea it's pretty sad i'm afraid to use that broken system and would rather spam for chat, as at the bare minimum I know I'll get someone who knows how to type.

I think the last 4 times I used the queue system - at level 60 for epics mind you, the players I got didn't even know how to use party chat - they (well that ~5% that actually type anything) would only type in /say chat - and all caps, pretty sad state.

...Plus if I take friends, these types of players are guaranteed to be in charge of the party.

axer128 · May 2013

Think i've missed 3 dungeon delves events due to this.. Queue or 3 or 4, get in delve - leader is a complete 100% rude person not worth playing with, causing us to miss it.

Really destroying your community by not acting on at least the fact pre formed groups never get the lead cryptic. Not sure how many players were lost due to this yet, but i'm sure the figure is quite high.

Think i have to resort to spamming chat 100% of the time not, as 99% of the time the queue gives the control to someone completely undeserving. Almost seems like it has some kind of detector for rude people and gives them it ...

And it's not like this helps said rude solo queuer at all. It causes undue strife is all it does, as players like myself wont play with them as we all leave the group, and the replacements they may or may not get will most likely not be the right classes or geared well enough to complete the dungeon (if they get any at all)

Plus it punishes the many and rewards no one. Reward the many, create a stronger community.

Grouping tools in dire need of improvement

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