PWE is not even half as rich as blizzs Mike Morhaime weights 1.2 Bilions while PWE co is not even worth 1/3 of that... Blizz produces high quallity games while PWE doesn't. Most of them are generic, imbalanced, with no real end game. Even comparing those two is stupid really. PWE community is small while Blizzard community is probably above 50milions.
And only company that got anywhere near blizzard MMO wide is NCsoft.
I agree that PWI generally makes sub-standard games. Having played others I was hoping they would do it differently with NW. Instead it seems they have followed their normal path. They appear to be happy cranking out a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-ton of games that are just good enough to get people interested and snag some of their money. After that the support and concern for the player base will dry up since the money is not coming in and then they will move on to the next one. That's why they have to make so many games. If they only made one game which was as generic as their usual games and used the F2P model they would go broke in no time.
And they won't get it, because vastly more people prefer this model. This is borne out by every related industry statistic, and has been for years. Perfect World runs 30 games, 12 in North America, that use this model. In every one, the forums are full of people proclaiming that this time it's going to drive the customers away. The result? PW is second only to Blizzard in revenues in the MMO space, and unlike Blizzard, their revenues are growing.
The shift to this business model in the industry is well beyond "what players prefer". The truth is that market studies related to the addictive nature of online gaming and impulse buying are driving this change. "Giving" samples of something to hook someone has been long used in both legal and illegal marketing strategies. At the end of the day the market believes the highest revenue will be generated annually by this model vs. the old sub model.
Does that translate into a savings for you as a consumer? Perhaps if you are an ultra casual gamer who hops from one freebie to the next yes. For those that invest time to cultivate a character(s) , develop online friendships etc the answer is likely no.
It is my belief and that other current research conducted that longer term a hybrid approach will be the most successful. Small monthly subs and cash shops that sell ONLY status and cosmetic items.
I do not believe I said anything remotely similar to this.
The flaw here is to think that there is only one, single, monolithic "game" that is the totality of Neverwinter.
There is a "game" to earning a piece of gear. Each quest is a "game" in-and-of itself. Each PvP match is a "game". There a multitude of individual games involved in playing an MMO, and each can be won.
Talking about "winning Neverwinter" is as meaningless as talking about "winning Baseball". You can win games of baseball, but you can't win all of Baseball. And, say, bribing an Umpire could certainly be called "paying to win" in a game of baseball, even if it won't help you in the impossible task of winning all of Baseball.
It depends on your definition. The proper definition is that paying for power is paying to win. Ergo, Neverwinter is undeniably a pay to win game.
But a definition can't be proven, only agreed upon.
See?
We always come back to subjective opinion and while you can argue about those definitions, no one reaches any sort of real irrefutable answer.
I don't like the dead end horrible rationalizations and whatnot, I hate the whole stupid argument which is in many ways fruitless and gets nobody anywhere, but these ARE the dead ends that stop us from reaching any sort of true blue agreement.
And as people keep mentioning, they (PWE) make bank with it. So you can't really say from a business standpoint it's not working out well for them.
first, I need to ask, which part is "pay2Win" in this game? and what is "Win" on this term? please, explain, cause I dont see any item that make you trully a "winner" on this game
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quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
first, I need to ask, which part is "pay2Win" in this game? and what is "Win" on this term? please, explain, cause I dont see any item that make you trully a "winner" on this game
You can pay cash for items that significantly increase your ability to win both PvE quests, and PvP matches. Ergo, paying to win.
People play quests and matches to win items, but they can be purchased with cash. Those that do so have paid to gain (i.e., win) those items.
I don't know what you mean by "truly a winner". I don't see what other notion of "winning" makes any sense in regards to MMOs.
The current model is what they have in all their games except CO and STO. It's why they make $2 billion in gross profit yearly. I assure you, it does the exact opposite of leave them destitute.
The Wall Street Journal doesn't agree with your grossly inflated figures and in fact has their profits DOWN by 67% in the last quarter reported. "Perfect World posted a profit of CNY86.4 million ($13.9 million),"
You can pay cash for items that significantly increase your ability to win both PvE quests, and PvP matches. Ergo, paying to win.
People play quests and matches to win items, but they can be purchased with cash. Those that do so have paid to gain (i.e., win) those items.
I don't know what you mean by "truly a winner". I don't see what other notion of "winning" makes any sense in regards to MMOs.
well, I know about that, what I mean is, which part? what item? because I dont see any item could make you "win", except 1, maybe, by the means taking many item and that is bag because you can bring extra item, thats it
well, I know about that, what I mean is, which part? what item? because I dont see any item could make you "win", except 1, maybe, by the means taking many item and that is bag because you can bring extra item, thats it
Well T3 mounts and max enchantments would probably be some of the items that can make you win in pvp.
Most free to play players will not be able to get these items for a long time, if ever.
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yushirokaneMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I know it is rude to answer a question with a question, but I'll have to:
Pay2Win / Cheat2Win : What's the difference?
Not at all, before the subs games were kings, there you paid with your time. Now in Free to play you pay with yur money instead your time, wich is better for companies too. Sorry that your days of no living farming 24/7 are over because some ppl have works and like to pay fr their hobby.
Wasn't expecting this to be my first post, but the way that I see P2W or F2P games are this: We're conditioned to believe the game play is free and this instinctively makes us happy to go along with it because we feel as if we're "getting a deal".
I think Penny Arcade got it right in one of their videos (which surprises me because I usually roll my eyes at their opinion pieces) which explains what happened with JC Penny's new direction and business model. Basically they took away sales tags and sold everything at a base price that was affordable and never changed. It is believed that this model didn't work because of the conditioning of the sales experience we've always had. People never enticed into thinking they were getting a deal and were so used to looking for that red tag. Once all along you were getting great deals and products were already being sold at their sale prices from the very beginning. Instead of having product sit on shelves until they go on sale they had everything at their low cap price (the price they agree to lower to in the event they go on sale). Sounds pretty great.
Neverwinter's F2P/P2W business model is like that red tag sale and P2P is like that of what JC Penny was trying to model. You are conditioned to be thankful for the deal, but it was already agreed upon before production of the product. You get your access and progression and if you so choose you can buy that new product at a marked up price. Those products most likely fall in price and the F2P casuals, if they enjoy the game enough, may buy the items at their reduced price. WHAT A DEAL! However, guess what? That's your monthly fee much like a P2P gaming model. Except with this type of model the company has the potential to gain more money from you depending on how they develop their gameplay. Maybe things become too difficult and hard to upkeep your character. You end up spending more money casually sometimes than if you would on a P2P game. Why? Again, and please follow, you're conditioned to think you're getting a deal.
F2P and P2W enthusiasts will tell you that this model is the standard in MMORPGS, but what they probably don't realize is that they lost.... at least not yet..... the battle of fair and balanced trade. I believe as much as the next person that you get what you pay for, but there comes a time where a market gets so big that you start getting taken advantage of. Take in account the banking industry and housing in the US. Though, in that example the bubble burst, we're seeing a little in that of the MMORPG industry already. We don't have to fully dive into that just yet as I'm sure most intelligent people understand that dilemma already. Moving on from that, getting what you pay for is not what P2W/F2P models are. At all.
Finally, what I find interesting is the player's interest in a gaming company's finances and how they seemingly feel as if they have to defend a company's choice in how they conduct business. This part is the most delusional thought process I've ever witnessed especially in the MMORPG market. I think MMORPGs involve their players so much during their development process where some people actually think they are good friends with these companies. Nothing could be further from the truth. You may be friendly with it's developers, but don't think publishers and investors are your f#$%ing friends. They are not your friends. They are in the business of having your choke on their d#$% and pay for it with gratitude. The business model they've created is the most degrading thing to enter this industry.
I think Neverwinter is fun right now, but it's just something to pass the time. Later down the road I know I will hit a point where I'll never be on the same level as other players unless I shell out cash, and a significant amount of it, at that. Whereas if I were in a P2P model I have the potential to be on the same level as another due to my efforts and ability. The way a game should be played. Enjoy this game while it lasts.
Honest to god, I'm not trolling. I'm really asking because it's not obvious to me that it is the awful thing many/most folks seem to think it is.
PWE is in business to make money. A profit motive is not an evil thing. Why shouldn't they offer items of value to people who are willing and able to buy them, even if those items give the players some advantage?
The only argument against it I can think of is that it would discourage folks that can't/aren't willing to buy items from playing. But those same folks are only a cost to PWE so from a business perspective that wouldn't really matter.
Or, I guess another way to put it: what's the argument for putting people who aren't paying PWE on the same footing as people who ARE paying PWE?
Not at all, before the subs games were kings, there you paid with your time. Now in Free to play you pay with yur money instead your time, wich is better for companies too. Sorry that your days of no living farming 24/7 are over because some ppl have works and like to pay fr their hobby.
That is not really what is meant by P2W.
P2W is when the company sells stat advantages that you can only get from paying.
P2W can also be when the company sells advantages that a free player can get, but only after farming for such a long time most players will never get them. Neverwinter is closer to this type, although it might have some of the other, as I have not really looked that far into it.
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calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Not at all, before the subs games were kings, there you paid with your time. Now in Free to play you pay with yur money instead your time, wich is better for companies too. Sorry that your days of no living farming 24/7 are over because some ppl have works and like to pay fr their hobby.
Nah. That's why WoW added arenas. So that people with skill could get gear that people with time couldn't.
Well T3 mounts and max enchantments would probably be some of the items that can make you win in pvp.
Most free to play players will not be able to get these items for a long time, if ever.
the term "win" in here is PvP I believe, is it Nightmare is T3 mounts you talking about? well, enchanted key can be get by AD, lockbox is everywhere all you have need is a good luck, pay or not pay, you still can get nightmare. max enchantments? is what you mean shard that have 1% chance of fusing? if that so, well, coalesence ward can get through box from celestial coin every 7 day, hard yes, not immposible
Personally, because I'm not a fan of putting a lot of hours into a game over several months just for a guy who has played a couple of weeks to be able to stomp on me like a bug just because he can spend much more than ~$50-60 on games per month.
A P2W game isn't going to just discourage the people who don't pay, but it will also discourage the people who can't pay enough.
As for the rest of this thread about P2W, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot barge pole.
Edit: Interesting point I've found out from this post, the forum does not support the Great British Pound sign and cuts off your post whenever you use it.
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sasheriaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
p2W is bad for ePeen players. There is a need in players (not everyone) that must have something that no one else can get or have to "work" to get it.
the other is less but group issue. Some players have no patience with new players and want to run instance fast and easy. Gear score are NOW used as a meter of player's ability. this "maybe" true when you are using T2+ gear where you need coordination or good group communication. The problem with P2W, is that you may get a player who are in "fresh T2 gear" but don't know how to play the class OR the instance (first time runner) which usually "<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off" the group leader cause they want to do a fast run with fast easy loot.
Solo players usually don't have this issue unless it is epeen issue (i.e. can't get certain mount until defeat certain boss, but if everyone can get it from AH then it is not "worth" as much for epeen)
I don't know what you mean by "truly a winner". I don't see what other notion of "winning" makes any sense in regards to MMOs.
That would be why the model is so lucrative. The entire model is a slippery slope with no end, just what the buyers will tolerate.
Personally, I can't see why anyone would pay so much for advantages in such a mediocre Champions online/DCUO knockoff when they could buy a WHOLE NEW game for the same price, but hey, SOMEONE'S doing it.
the term "win" in here is PvP I believe, is it Nightmare is T3 mounts you talking about? well, enchanted key can be get by AD, lockbox is everywhere all you have need is a good luck, pay or not pay, you still can get nightmare. max enchantments? is what you mean shard that have 1% chance of fusing? if that so, well, coalesence ward can get through box from celestial coin every 7 day, hard yes, not immposible
Well to get max enchantments and whatnot, it would likely take so long that most free to play players will never be able to get them. That is also considered a type of pay to win.
I do not really care either way. A company can do whatever they want.
I am just sticking around to see what happens with the game, to see if I want to keep playing it.
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
edited May 2013
Because it aggravates the people who spend hundreds or hours farming for the perfect gear and see people who worked their asses off to pay bills be able to get as good or better gear for $$. That is essentially it. It is somehow more pure to spend hours and weeks in game farming for gear than to spend the same hours and days at work.
there's an element of sarcasm in the pay-to-win expression. "Win" in this context just means getting something quicker/faster/easier than you would by actually playing the game by using real money instead. You don't really 'win' anything, in fact you may well end up in missing out on an amount of gameplay that may (or may not) be regarded as 'fun'.
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
there's an element of sarcasm in the pay-to-win expression. "Win" in this context just means getting something quicker/faster/easier than you would by actually playing the game by using real money instead. You don't really 'win' anything, in fact you may well end up in missing out on an amount of gameplay that may (or may not) be regarded as 'fun'.
Nah WIN in this case almost exclusively is related to PVP.
there's an element of sarcasm in the pay-to-win expression. "Win" in this context just means getting something quicker/faster/easier than you would by actually playing the game by using real money instead. You don't really 'win' anything, in fact you may well end up in missing out on an amount of gameplay that may (or may not) be regarded as 'fun'.
No, what you are talking about is usually acceptable.
P2W is usually when you 1)get an advantage over free players in stats, or 2)you get something that would take the free players a very long time, if ever, to get, which has a stats advantage.
In Neverwinter people just mean 2, as far as I know.
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steppenkatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I have no easy answer for that; i only can tell you how I feel, then I find a pure pay 2 win game.
The first thing is, to play a game, it has to be fair. It must be fun, if you pay for it, or not. You must be able to play with paying players, like you play with non-paying. There should be no big differences in power, or leveling. The Last point is very important to me.
Second thing is, you should be able to make ingame currency in a descent time. At least enough, to buy some minor little things. If that is not the case, I fell duped. If I feed betrayed, I leave the game.
Third thing. The prices for things should be mostly under 4-5 $. Some even in under 1 $, for the little things. If things are to expensive, I feel forced to buy game currency, because their seem to be no other way. I do not buy game currency, if I feel forced. I leave the game in that case. Otherwise I am willing to spend more money in a game, over the time, I woukd ever spend in any single player game.
I am willing to pay for more quest, cosmetic gear, pets, mount, hirelings, bags, more bank space, houses, etc. But I will never ever pay for things that are needed for winning, or belongs to the game core rules! last point is totaly unacceptable. I am willing to buy things, that makes my game more convinient, but I will not buy essentials. If you are forced to buy essentials, the game is clearly P2W, and I will stopping playing this game at this point.
This pretty much sums my own opinion, though I'm not flexible with prices. For instance, I think the 10$ bag is okay. It's extremely convenient and you only need it with one character at the same time, and you can trade it through mail. And I hate games that require "essential" assets to become playable.
Characters: - Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer) - Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur) - Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC) - Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Because it aggravates the people who spend hundreds or hours farming for the perfect gear and see people who worked their asses off to pay bills be able to get as good or better gear for $$. That is essentially it. It is somehow more pure to spend hours and weeks in game farming for gear than to spend the same hours and days at work.
Yeah because people who spend 10 hours a day gaming don't have an advantage. :P Money buys time, basically, and if you're willing to grind to save money, don't sue the guy who spends some cash to save time.
Characters: - Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer) - Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur) - Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC) - Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
I think the real problem is the gut-feeling towards the game and the company. It feels to greedy that the zen spending can be found everywhere you click on. It doesnt feel gamer-centric. I really think that this will brake the game because the game will lose the majority of there player base when ppl realize this. The downfall has already started after the past weekend. Its not about a good game made for gamers. Its a pathetic cash grab.
So you can love the game and dont agree that its a pay to win game... At the end you will see that the game has lost its appeal to the mass...
Wasn't expecting this to be my first post, but the way that I see P2W or F2P games are this: We're conditioned to believe the game play is free and this instinctively makes us happy to go along with it because we feel as if we're "getting a deal".
I think Penny Arcade got it right in one of their videos (which surprises me because I usually roll my eyes at their opinion pieces) which explains what happened with JC Penny's new direction and business model. Basically they took away sales tags and sold everything at a base price that was affordable and never changed. It is believed that this model didn't work because of the conditioning of the sales experience we've always had. People never enticed into thinking they were getting a deal and were so used to looking for that red tag. Once all along you were getting great deals and products were already being sold at their sale prices from the very beginning. Instead of having product sit on shelves until they go on sale they had everything at their low cap price (the price they agree to lower to in the event they go on sale). Sounds pretty great.
Neverwinter's F2P/P2W business model is like that red tag sale and P2P is like that of what JC Penny was trying to model. You are conditioned to be thankful for the deal, but it was already agreed upon before production of the product. You get your access and progression and if you so choose you can buy that new product at a marked up price. Those products most likely fall in price and the F2P casuals, if they enjoy the game enough, may buy the items at their reduced price. WHAT A DEAL! However, guess what? That's your monthly fee much like a P2P gaming model. Except with this type of model the company has the potential to gain more money from you depending on how they develop their gameplay. Maybe things become too difficult and hard to upkeep your character. You end up spending more money casually sometimes than if you would on a P2P game. Why? Again, and please follow, you're conditioned to think you're getting a deal.
F2P and P2W enthusiasts will tell you that this model is the standard in MMORPGS, but what they probably don't realize is that they lost.... at least not yet..... the battle of fair and balanced trade. I believe as much as the next person that you get what you pay for, but there comes a time where a market gets so big that you start getting taken advantage of. Take in account the banking industry and housing in the US. Though, in that example the bubble burst, we're seeing a little in that of the MMORPG industry already. We don't have to fully dive into that just yet as I'm sure most intelligent people understand that dilemma already. Moving on from that, getting what you pay for is not what P2W/F2P models are. At all.
Finally, what I find interesting is the player's interest in a gaming company's finances and how they seemingly feel as if they have to defend a company's choice in how they conduct business. This part is the most delusional thought process I've ever witnessed especially in the MMORPG market. I think MMORPGs involve their players so much during their development process where some people actually think they are good friends with these companies. Nothing could be further from the truth. You may be friendly with it's developers, but don't think publishers and investors are your f#$%ing friends. They are not your friends. They are in the business of having your choke on their d#$% and pay for it with gratitude. The business model they've created is the most degrading thing to enter this industry.
I think Neverwinter is fun right now, but it's just something to pass the time. Later down the road I know I will hit a point where I'll never be on the same level as other players unless I shell out cash, and a significant amount of it, at that. Whereas if I were in a P2P model I have the potential to be on the same level as another due to my efforts and ability. The way a game should be played. Enjoy this game while it lasts.
EXCELLENT POST! Longer term consumers will realize this business model carries a higher overall cost for high end enjoyable play. They are the losers in this business model shift. Secondly I also find it beyond bizarre the lengths some people will go to defend a games business decisions. That statment is not just relevant to this game but to many. Hell when Secret World was rolled out it was FULL of bugs at full retail price but people would defend it to the death. LOL in our business if I sell a customer something that faulty NOONE defends us.
I have no easy answer for that; i only can tell you how I feel, then I find a pure pay 2 win game.
The first thing is, to play a game, it has to be fair. It must be fun, if you pay for it, or not. You must be able to play with paying players, like you play with non-paying. There should be no big differences in power, or leveling. The Last point is very important to me.
Second thing is, you should be able to make ingame currency in a descent time. At least enough, to buy some minor little things. If that is not the case, I fell duped. If I feed betrayed, I leave the game.
Third thing. The prices for things should be mostly under 4-5 $. Some even in under 1 $, for the little things. If things are to expensive, I feel forced to buy game currency, because their seem to be no other way. I do not buy game currency, if I feel forced. I leave the game in that case. Otherwise I am willing to spend more money in a game, over the time, I woukd ever spend in any single player game.
I am willing to pay for more quest, cosmetic gear, pets, mount, hirelings, bags, more bank space, houses, etc. But I will never ever pay for things that are needed for winning, or belongs to the game core rules! last point is totaly unacceptable. I am willing to buy things, that makes my game more convinient, but I will not buy essentials. If you are forced to buy essentials, the game is clearly P2W, and I will stopping playing this game at this point.
The price point is purely personal preference.
Every single activity in life is pay to win at the highest competitive level to some extent. If you don't have the money for the best equipment or training its always going to be hard to compete in almost any endeavor.
Games that are f2p just tend to bring it to the fore a bit more since a lot of people come to the party that wouldn't be there if there were an entry cost and when it eventually becomes clear that someone with more money is going to have an easier or more powerful or better experience it creates resentment much as it does in life.
Games do not need to be fair in any meaningful sense either. And not cheating is no where near the same thing as fair. To be totally fair everyone would have to play on substandard equipment with a crappy internet connection....Harrison Bergeron this is not.
People seem to assume Free to play = Free to win and thus they complain about everything with a price tag. Most "free" to win games are really partial games ment to get you hooked with the free bits. PWE games are more Free to win than any other Pay to play game ive ever seen thanks to zen exchange and the auction-house running on AD.
In a lot of ways I think PWE is missing out of a lot of cash by not having subscription options, and more account based items/services. The fashion gear being an actual item rather than a costume slot people can spends a few 1000ad here and there to tinker with is probbibly costing them a small fortune I have over 10 costume slots on CO and STO, I have like every costume pack weather I need it or not cause I tend to have a gotta collect them all factor for account based things.
Comments
I agree that PWI generally makes sub-standard games. Having played others I was hoping they would do it differently with NW. Instead it seems they have followed their normal path. They appear to be happy cranking out a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-ton of games that are just good enough to get people interested and snag some of their money. After that the support and concern for the player base will dry up since the money is not coming in and then they will move on to the next one. That's why they have to make so many games. If they only made one game which was as generic as their usual games and used the F2P model they would go broke in no time.
The shift to this business model in the industry is well beyond "what players prefer". The truth is that market studies related to the addictive nature of online gaming and impulse buying are driving this change. "Giving" samples of something to hook someone has been long used in both legal and illegal marketing strategies. At the end of the day the market believes the highest revenue will be generated annually by this model vs. the old sub model.
Does that translate into a savings for you as a consumer? Perhaps if you are an ultra casual gamer who hops from one freebie to the next yes. For those that invest time to cultivate a character(s) , develop online friendships etc the answer is likely no.
It is my belief and that other current research conducted that longer term a hybrid approach will be the most successful. Small monthly subs and cash shops that sell ONLY status and cosmetic items.
See?
We always come back to subjective opinion and while you can argue about those definitions, no one reaches any sort of real irrefutable answer.
I don't like the dead end horrible rationalizations and whatnot, I hate the whole stupid argument which is in many ways fruitless and gets nobody anywhere, but these ARE the dead ends that stop us from reaching any sort of true blue agreement.
And as people keep mentioning, they (PWE) make bank with it. So you can't really say from a business standpoint it's not working out well for them.
The purpose of discussion is not to reach an irrefutable answer. Almost nothing outside pure mathematics fits that description.
I don't have grounds to say it isn't. Although I'd like to see what evidence people have that it is working so well for them.
You can pay cash for items that significantly increase your ability to win both PvE quests, and PvP matches. Ergo, paying to win.
People play quests and matches to win items, but they can be purchased with cash. Those that do so have paid to gain (i.e., win) those items.
I don't know what you mean by "truly a winner". I don't see what other notion of "winning" makes any sense in regards to MMOs.
1:A general consensus then... one that isn't continually driven into a circle jerk argument. That would be more than sufficient
2: I'm sure you can ask the player who posted multiple times that they're doing well out of it and his reasoning and sources on the matter
The Wall Street Journal doesn't agree with your grossly inflated figures and in fact has their profits DOWN by 67% in the last quarter reported. "Perfect World posted a profit of CNY86.4 million ($13.9 million),"
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20130311-711599.html
Perhaps not that successful a business model after all?
well, I know about that, what I mean is, which part? what item? because I dont see any item could make you "win", except 1, maybe, by the means taking many item and that is bag because you can bring extra item, thats it
Well T3 mounts and max enchantments would probably be some of the items that can make you win in pvp.
Most free to play players will not be able to get these items for a long time, if ever.
Not at all, before the subs games were kings, there you paid with your time. Now in Free to play you pay with yur money instead your time, wich is better for companies too. Sorry that your days of no living farming 24/7 are over because some ppl have works and like to pay fr their hobby.
I think Penny Arcade got it right in one of their videos (which surprises me because I usually roll my eyes at their opinion pieces) which explains what happened with JC Penny's new direction and business model. Basically they took away sales tags and sold everything at a base price that was affordable and never changed. It is believed that this model didn't work because of the conditioning of the sales experience we've always had. People never enticed into thinking they were getting a deal and were so used to looking for that red tag. Once all along you were getting great deals and products were already being sold at their sale prices from the very beginning. Instead of having product sit on shelves until they go on sale they had everything at their low cap price (the price they agree to lower to in the event they go on sale). Sounds pretty great.
Neverwinter's F2P/P2W business model is like that red tag sale and P2P is like that of what JC Penny was trying to model. You are conditioned to be thankful for the deal, but it was already agreed upon before production of the product. You get your access and progression and if you so choose you can buy that new product at a marked up price. Those products most likely fall in price and the F2P casuals, if they enjoy the game enough, may buy the items at their reduced price. WHAT A DEAL! However, guess what? That's your monthly fee much like a P2P gaming model. Except with this type of model the company has the potential to gain more money from you depending on how they develop their gameplay. Maybe things become too difficult and hard to upkeep your character. You end up spending more money casually sometimes than if you would on a P2P game. Why? Again, and please follow, you're conditioned to think you're getting a deal.
F2P and P2W enthusiasts will tell you that this model is the standard in MMORPGS, but what they probably don't realize is that they lost.... at least not yet..... the battle of fair and balanced trade. I believe as much as the next person that you get what you pay for, but there comes a time where a market gets so big that you start getting taken advantage of. Take in account the banking industry and housing in the US. Though, in that example the bubble burst, we're seeing a little in that of the MMORPG industry already. We don't have to fully dive into that just yet as I'm sure most intelligent people understand that dilemma already. Moving on from that, getting what you pay for is not what P2W/F2P models are. At all.
Finally, what I find interesting is the player's interest in a gaming company's finances and how they seemingly feel as if they have to defend a company's choice in how they conduct business. This part is the most delusional thought process I've ever witnessed especially in the MMORPG market. I think MMORPGs involve their players so much during their development process where some people actually think they are good friends with these companies. Nothing could be further from the truth. You may be friendly with it's developers, but don't think publishers and investors are your f#$%ing friends. They are not your friends. They are in the business of having your choke on their d#$% and pay for it with gratitude. The business model they've created is the most degrading thing to enter this industry.
I think Neverwinter is fun right now, but it's just something to pass the time. Later down the road I know I will hit a point where I'll never be on the same level as other players unless I shell out cash, and a significant amount of it, at that. Whereas if I were in a P2P model I have the potential to be on the same level as another due to my efforts and ability. The way a game should be played. Enjoy this game while it lasts.
because P2W aka Neverwinter is bad?
That is not really what is meant by P2W.
P2W is when the company sells stat advantages that you can only get from paying.
P2W can also be when the company sells advantages that a free player can get, but only after farming for such a long time most players will never get them. Neverwinter is closer to this type, although it might have some of the other, as I have not really looked that far into it.
Nah. That's why WoW added arenas. So that people with skill could get gear that people with time couldn't.
Paid achievements remind me of Kim Jong-il's.
the term "win" in here is PvP I believe, is it Nightmare is T3 mounts you talking about? well, enchanted key can be get by AD, lockbox is everywhere all you have need is a good luck, pay or not pay, you still can get nightmare. max enchantments? is what you mean shard that have 1% chance of fusing? if that so, well, coalesence ward can get through box from celestial coin every 7 day, hard yes, not immposible
To quote earlier in the thread:
As for the rest of this thread about P2W, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot barge pole.
Edit: Interesting point I've found out from this post, the forum does not support the Great British Pound sign and cuts off your post whenever you use it.
the other is less but group issue. Some players have no patience with new players and want to run instance fast and easy. Gear score are NOW used as a meter of player's ability. this "maybe" true when you are using T2+ gear where you need coordination or good group communication. The problem with P2W, is that you may get a player who are in "fresh T2 gear" but don't know how to play the class OR the instance (first time runner) which usually "<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off" the group leader cause they want to do a fast run with fast easy loot.
Solo players usually don't have this issue unless it is epeen issue (i.e. can't get certain mount until defeat certain boss, but if everyone can get it from AH then it is not "worth" as much for epeen)
that is how I see it. I just don't agree with it.
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
That would be why the model is so lucrative. The entire model is a slippery slope with no end, just what the buyers will tolerate.
Personally, I can't see why anyone would pay so much for advantages in such a mediocre Champions online/DCUO knockoff when they could buy a WHOLE NEW game for the same price, but hey, SOMEONE'S doing it.
Well to get max enchantments and whatnot, it would likely take so long that most free to play players will never be able to get them. That is also considered a type of pay to win.
I do not really care either way. A company can do whatever they want.
I am just sticking around to see what happens with the game, to see if I want to keep playing it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Nah WIN in this case almost exclusively is related to PVP.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
No, what you are talking about is usually acceptable.
P2W is usually when you 1)get an advantage over free players in stats, or 2)you get something that would take the free players a very long time, if ever, to get, which has a stats advantage.
In Neverwinter people just mean 2, as far as I know.
This pretty much sums my own opinion, though I'm not flexible with prices. For instance, I think the 10$ bag is okay. It's extremely convenient and you only need it with one character at the same time, and you can trade it through mail. And I hate games that require "essential" assets to become playable.
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
Yeah because people who spend 10 hours a day gaming don't have an advantage. :P Money buys time, basically, and if you're willing to grind to save money, don't sue the guy who spends some cash to save time.
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
So you can love the game and dont agree that its a pay to win game... At the end you will see that the game has lost its appeal to the mass...
EXCELLENT POST! Longer term consumers will realize this business model carries a higher overall cost for high end enjoyable play. They are the losers in this business model shift. Secondly I also find it beyond bizarre the lengths some people will go to defend a games business decisions. That statment is not just relevant to this game but to many. Hell when Secret World was rolled out it was FULL of bugs at full retail price but people would defend it to the death. LOL in our business if I sell a customer something that faulty NOONE defends us.
The price point is purely personal preference.
Every single activity in life is pay to win at the highest competitive level to some extent. If you don't have the money for the best equipment or training its always going to be hard to compete in almost any endeavor.
Games that are f2p just tend to bring it to the fore a bit more since a lot of people come to the party that wouldn't be there if there were an entry cost and when it eventually becomes clear that someone with more money is going to have an easier or more powerful or better experience it creates resentment much as it does in life.
Games do not need to be fair in any meaningful sense either. And not cheating is no where near the same thing as fair. To be totally fair everyone would have to play on substandard equipment with a crappy internet connection....Harrison Bergeron this is not.
In a lot of ways I think PWE is missing out of a lot of cash by not having subscription options, and more account based items/services. The fashion gear being an actual item rather than a costume slot people can spends a few 1000ad here and there to tinker with is probbibly costing them a small fortune I have over 10 costume slots on CO and STO, I have like every costume pack weather I need it or not cause I tend to have a gotta collect them all factor for account based things.