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Why is P2W bad?
calidge
Member Posts: 4 Arc User
Honest to god, I'm not trolling. I'm really asking because it's not obvious to me that it is the awful thing many/most folks seem to think it is.
PWE is in business to make money. A profit motive is not an evil thing. Why shouldn't they offer items of value to people who are willing and able to buy them, even if those items give the players some advantage?
The only argument against it I can think of is that it would discourage folks that can't/aren't willing to buy items from playing. But those same folks are only a cost to PWE so from a business perspective that wouldn't really matter.
Or, I guess another way to put it: what's the argument for putting people who aren't paying PWE on the same footing as people who ARE paying PWE?
PWE is in business to make money. A profit motive is not an evil thing. Why shouldn't they offer items of value to people who are willing and able to buy them, even if those items give the players some advantage?
The only argument against it I can think of is that it would discourage folks that can't/aren't willing to buy items from playing. But those same folks are only a cost to PWE so from a business perspective that wouldn't really matter.
Or, I guess another way to put it: what's the argument for putting people who aren't paying PWE on the same footing as people who ARE paying PWE?
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Pay2Win / Cheat2Win : What's the difference?
example:
I convince a few friends to play NW, they only started because I was playing, a couple of them end up spending. Even though I spent 0 I still brought PW money through friends.
To answer your question, I don't really find the cash shop system on NW pay to win... You can farm AD and turn it into Zen. At most people who spend just have the advantage of getting things faster, I don't see that as a problem considering I've played games where people who spend would have 2~10x the stats of a person who didn't. The people whining are just too lazy to farm or tricking themselves into think they NEED something when they simply WANT it.
Pointless troll.
Most opponents of P2W would gladly pay for a subscription if it meant no P2W cash-shop.
And they won't get it, because vastly more people prefer this model. This is borne out by every related industry statistic, and has been for years. Perfect World runs 30 games, 12 in North America, that use this model. In every one, the forums are full of people proclaiming that this time it's going to drive the customers away. The result? PW is second only to Blizzard in revenues in the MMO space, and unlike Blizzard, their revenues are growing.
Ergo, personally preferring a game that follows an alternative business model makes us "kids [who] don't understand economics, because their parents buy them everything so they think things are free"?
You can win gear.
You can win quests.
You can win PvP matches.
The notion that you can't "win" in an MMO is beyond absurd. You can "win" just like every other game ever. A game that can't be "won" in some way is not a game. Period. That's the whole point of them.
It's OK to personally prefer something. It's not OK to demand it be implemented, or to claim it will increase profits. It won't. That's proven, repeatedly, and the parent company for this game are the ones that pioneered the proof.
The question then remains, is a game considered a great game and a success because it makes a lot of money, or does it make a lot of money because it's a great game and then considered a success?
I'd deem that there's been a huge shift towards the former taking over from the latter, and games are suffering because of it.
Just as easily as you can claim this "works" currently, I can claim "it might work better if"
And again, just because something works passably if backed up by enough shrewd business practices doesn't mean it's the ideal model. It's always disheartening to hear how rapidly dismissive some players have of differing opinions.
The first thing is, to play a game, it has to be fair. It must be fun, if you pay for it, or not. You must be able to play with paying players, like you play with non-paying. There should be no big differences in power, or leveling. The Last point is very important to me.
Second thing is, you should be able to make ingame currency in a descent time. At least enough, to buy some minor little things. If that is not the case, I fell duped. If I feed betrayed, I leave the game.
Third thing. The prices for things should be mostly under 4-5 $. Some even in under 1 $, for the little things. If things are to expensive, I feel forced to buy game currency, because their seem to be no other way. I do not buy game currency, if I feel forced. I leave the game in that case. Otherwise I am willing to spend more money in a game, over the time, I woukd ever spend in any single player game.
I am willing to pay for more quest, cosmetic gear, pets, mount, hirelings, bags, more bank space, houses, etc. But I will never ever pay for things that are needed for winning, or belongs to the game core rules! last point is totaly unacceptable. I am willing to buy things, that makes my game more convinient, but I will not buy essentials. If you are forced to buy essentials, the game is clearly P2W, and I will stopping playing this game at this point.
First I want to say that I do not believe that you are serious for a second, but I feel like posting for fun anyways.
No one would take a Chess tournament seriously if you could pay money to remove your opponents pieces from the board and win the game. In the same way, no one takes a p2w game seriously, so the game will end up with a smaller player base of mostly p2wers.
Population is important in games like these, so losing a lot of players is bad, as even the p2wers will get bored and leave, because not enough people are playing.
This is why the best f2p model is one that sells mostly cosmetic items in the item shop, allows for trading of gold for cash shop money between players and sells only boosts that give slight exp gain etc.
It's the whales who are doing most of the complaining.
A P2W game isn't going to just discourage the people who don't pay, but it will also discourage the people who can't pay enough.
Are you implying that this game will never add more goals?
"winning" implies that you end the game, you finish, it is over and it's that logical flaw that leads folks to use the horrid argument of "p2w" you can disagree with that interpretation for "winning" but ultimately, you can't really disprove it can you? therefore you'll just circle jerk with folks that throw that simple response and probably get baited into flame wars.
I fully agree, its an UGLY and INELEGANT and downright DISGUSTING monetization that I look at in this game, and I've seen FAR better from other games though not necessarily MMORPG's, they're the worst offenders.
But you can't really state without any doubt that it can be undeniably considered "pay to win"
Do they sell power? yes
The question you get to that will be "what's the point in the power why does it affect you" to which you can't really argue against that, it's a dead end.
So you hate the game?
"then why do you play it, leave if you don't like it"
So you think PWE/Cryptic are a horrible company
"<see above>
You can win pvp matches?
"<insert downplaying of effects of gear and mount speeds here>"
etc etc etc, blah blah blah.
Regarding "demands", sounds like you're reading into tone more than you should. Unless a poster has actual power over PWE (and none of us do) there's no such thing as an actual "demand". Perhaps you could post some examples of these "demands"?
Regarding claims of increased profits, what is your proof that is so definitive that any discussion to the contrary is worthy of immediate derision and infantalization?
Because it isn't pay 2 win. Its pay 2 lose. The only winning moves in pay to win games is to either not give them any money and enjoy them or not, or give them very little money.
Pay 2 win puts the players against each other and it puts the game company in the role of the biggest cheat in the game.
Heres some questions for you strictly food for thought
1. How much does a nightmare inferno cost ?
2. How much does a 1000 trade bars cost ?
3. How many boxes from celestial coins do you have to open to get something actually useful.
Pay 2 win, is all about hiding how much people are paying to get them to waste far money than they otherwise would have. The house wins the player loses.
That being said, they have gone a bit over the top in pricing (ok...insane may be a better choice) the items on the Zen Market. Not only that, but the gear that you are forced to buy is stuff that you basically need in order for this to be a good/playable game. You can still get by without buying them, but the game experience is somewhat lacking. Even in a F2P model that is a huge no-no if you want to keep customers. People don't play games (even F2P) in order to have a half-azzed experience. The current NW economic model (and all the game issues...AH, Foundry, PvP, etc...) only discourages people from buying items thus leaving the PWI/Cryptic staff destitute and standing in bread lines to feed their family which eventually will lead to the game dying.
Unless, of course, they remove their heads from their 4th point of contact...
Don't think that is going to happen Cryptic/Paragon studios has a very strong genetic bias for rectal cranial inversion.
The current model is what they have in all their games except CO and STO. It's why they make $2 billion in gross profit yearly. I assure you, it does the exact opposite of leave them destitute.
I certainly started winning more after I bought the 110% speed mount.
I do not believe I said anything remotely similar to this.
The flaw here is to think that there is only one, single, monolithic "game" that is the totality of Neverwinter.
There is a "game" to earning a piece of gear. Each quest is a "game" in-and-of itself. Each PvP match is a "game". There a multitude of individual games involved in playing an MMO, and each can be won.
Talking about "winning Neverwinter" is as meaningless as talking about "winning Baseball". You can win games of baseball, but you can't win all of Baseball. And, say, bribing an Umpire could certainly be called "paying to win" in a game of baseball, even if it won't help you in the impossible task of winning all of Baseball.
It depends on your definition. The proper definition is that paying for power is paying to win. Ergo, Neverwinter is undeniably a pay to win game.
But a definition can't be proven, only agreed upon.
...this had me rollin'.
With the ability to trade cash shop currency between players there is usually a little more room, depending on pricing.
It has pretty much been proven that selling mostly cosmetic items in the item shop is the way to go for f2p model.
Do you like being manipulated? Do you enjoy peer pressure and negative reinforcement motivation?
The names of spenders and their mounts flash so you can see what they have and you don’t.
You get to PVP with people in bought gear and fast horses showing that you should buy them too.
You get a companion that makes your class playable and then out level her until you pay some more real money.
You need gearscore to get into groups and dungeons? You can buy it.
You can put tons of time into the crafting system but to make the end level things you need to buy components from trade packs.
Do you like having your own fun sold back to you? If so, then there is nothing wrong with P2W.
WAI
PWE is not even half as rich as blizzs Mike Morhaime weights 1.2 Bilions while PWE co is not even worth 1/3 of that... Blizz produces high quallity games while PWE doesn't. Most of them are generic, imbalanced, with no real end game. Even comparing those two is stupid really. PWE community is small while Blizzard community is probably above 50milions.
And only company that got anywhere near blizzard MMO wide is NCsoft.
You are not the only one that has played other PWI games. I am not disagreeing that money can be made with F2P, however their pricing and item choices in the other games I have played is nowhere near as bad as it is for NW. Which is why I believe the current model they have implemented in NW will discourage people. Personally, I like the game so I hope that I am wrong. However, just because PWI has made ton of money does not mean they will get it right every single time...
Oh, and PW did not pioneer the F2P model as one of your earlier comments inferred. Plenty of games implemented the model quite successfully before PWI was even created.