I looked at the founders pack and thought i wouldn't buy it without knowing how the AD currency would pan out in actual game play.
If there hadn't been some massive exploiting it would have been a massive early boost to people. As it is I think most people want to convert that AD into zen, so its making the conversion more expensive, until people have spent that early boost.
Personally I would have preferred founders got zen, cause then the rate would be better for me to buy through playing, but it would have meant there might have been slightly less spent on buying zen.
I'm not getting into whether i agree or disagree with the points made or the value of the packs. What I do find irritating is when a game is judged by other games on the market. it's irrelevant what another game does, better or worse. it simply has nothing to do with what cryptic do. You can only judge the game and the developers on their own merits and failings.
Comparisons are often made to support an argument position and it's usually a straw-man or deflection.
Comparing items of a similar type is healthy imo, for the consumer and producer. Be it comparing mmos from diff companies, tacos from diff restraunts, cars from diff manufacturers, or any other items that exist in a competitive marketplace. If it wasn't for comparisons and 'idea stealing' newer generation items wouldn't have nearly the mass appeal that producers want, or the wide range of 'standard of living' additions consumers want.
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pressexpose1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Comparing items of a similar type is healthy imo, for the consumer and producer. Be it comparing mmos from diff companies, tacos from diff restraunts, cars from diff manufacturers, or any other items that exist in a competitive marketplace. If it wasn't for comparisons and 'idea stealing' newer generation items wouldn't have nearly the mass appeal that producers want, or the wide range of 'standard of living' additions consumers want.
Not necessarily in all instances. It can skew expectations. Saying that one game gives you this and that whilst another game gives you this and is therefore better is just wrong. You have to judge things on face value.
If I were to compare all parts of this game with other games in a similar genre of late than I'd be even more disappointed with it than I am already.
Not necessarily in all instances. It can skew expectations. Saying that one game gives you this and that whilst another game gives you this and is therefore better is just wrong. You have to judge things on face value.
If I were to compare all parts of this game with other games in a similar genre of late than I'd be even more disappointed with it than I am already.
Agreed, comparisons based on features as opposed to content is needed in the case of mmos. Comparing the content of a fledgling mmo's 6 dungeons 0 raids to a seasoned mmos 20 dungeons 10 raids is both counter productive and asanine.
Id still argue thst comparing features like instance finder or crafting mechanics is overall productive for current and future mmos though.
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steppenkatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Okay I first off have to say I started a character took him up to level 10 and really enjoyed the experience.
So much so I decided I'd be playing the game a lot so why not support it by buying a Founder's pack.
Well the real worth of virtual in game goods can be hotly debated a $700 value for $200 bucks sounded fair.
But let's break that down for a traditional MMO shall we? 200-50=150, okay that's the normal purchase cost taken care of. 150/15=10, so it's like 10 months of a regular subscription, but to be fair most MMOs give a reduced rate for a longer subscription so let's say a year and a half worth of subscription fees, okay still pretty good. As well MMOs have started selling premium versions for another 10-20, so there are some trade offs involved.
Now let's look at the extras I get. A mount, well I got one from Rift for pre-ordering both the original and the expansion (2 mounts). In fact most subscription based MMOs give all most all the mounts for in game currency. But still it's a nice mount, so it's cool. I get a pretty good weapon and a couple of enchants, plus a mystery level 60 item, okay still good. A nice panther pet to help with combat, okay pretty cool, but most MMOs have pet classes so it's not that big a deal. Then there's a few things that are alright but not major things for me like a respec, extra character slots, an exclusive race, a VIP "lounge" and VIP access. They're nice to have but I wouldn't lose any sleep over not having them. I also get some items of more dubious worth like a joke cape, and items for other games I'm not actually playing (which means more money to spend if I do), fire works, a costume set that really isn't what I'd want to have for an alternate costume for my character, and flash powder . Pretty much junk items to make it seem like there's more involved. My only question at this point is if each character I create get's all the in game loot or not. Haven't made a second yet so I don't know. In every other MMO like Rift it's account not character, but there's nothing saying which it is
But what really got me thinking was the 2,000,000 Astral Diamonds. In other words the stuff you normally have to pay real world money for, or so I thought. After playing Guild Wars 2 I thought I knew how the real money to in game currency thing worked and 2,000,000 looked pretty sweet. Well what I've now found out is the Diamonds are a in game currency that every one can get by doing different things and while 2,000,000 looks like a lot and a bit of a head start, when you consider that first off this currency is spent in game quite quickly. And the currency that really matters isn't Astral Diamonds anyway, it's Zen coins which BTW you can exchange AD for at about 1 Zen to 375 AD. So 2,000,000/375=5333.4 Which at the prices listed in the Zen market it really doesn't last that long. Add to that the fact that you actually need ADs for switching enchants so you can't spend them all on Zen anyway.
What finally kind of made my eyebrows raise was when I decided to find out how much buying more Zen would be. Well the only way to find out is to start the purchase process, and it's 5,400 for $50. GW2's gems are not nearly that expensive nor are their prices for stuff as high as Neverwinter's. And they made absolutely sure when I both took the AD and did the exchange for Zen that it was a one shot deal so it's really only good enough to use on the one character.
When I compare this to my other current MMO Rift. I paid 60 for a pre-order with a mount and lots of other stuff. I subscribe yearly for a $100 and get all sorts of veteran subscriber perks, like another 5 mounts, all sorts of gear, and this is just for the cost of subscribing. I pre-ordered the expansion for 50 and got a mount and a few other odds and ends, and this is for every character on my account. So for 2 years worth of playing has cost me a total of $310. I have played GW2 as I mentioned before so I know how easy it is to run up a bill playing a no subscription model. As well Neverwinter looks like buying Zen items is almost a necessity to really enjoy the game, while with GW2 it's more optional. For example I spent most of my GW2 Gems on dye packs. So I'm making a few rough calculations in my head with your pricing model and I can easily see spending another $100-$200 this year even if I'm careful. I'm really starting to see why so many games are going free to play, it looks like there's a lot more money to nickel and dime out of your player base.
So I'm not as thrilled with becoming a "Founder" as I first was. If instead I had received 1,000,000 AD and 5,000 Zen I think I would of felt I got my money's worth. Instead it feel's like the hook being set to reel in more of my money. Either that or I guess I'm going to have nothing but grey colored characters in game.
Maybe it's just me but I'm surprised on how many people are percieving the Founder's pack as a "purchase" rather than a donation. Don't get me wrong, your position is understandable.
In my opinion, "buying" digital goods is a sink. You don't buy anything. It's just pixels. So, for me, the notion of "paying for stuff" in MMOs in other games is alien. However, I find perfectly acceptable to buy currency and expend it in the games I play.
It's because I see this as a way of supporting the game. Do I gain something for buying a costume for a character? I bought a Courtesan Outfit for a CW that I hardly use anymore, though I'll probably pick her up and max someday. I bought Dyes for some costumes and other stuff. I tried opening Lockboxes for fun, to see how they worked. And recently I just bought 2 Bags of Holding, one to send to someone and another for myself.
The thing is, I don't feel like I'm getting an advantage more than instant satisfaction or maybe a perk or two. You will never feel completely satisfied when purchasing a digital good, in my opinion. Basically because it isn't tangible, not really something you "own".
However, I truly enjoy this game and I think it has lots of potentials. And I like to support the things I enjoy playing. I've spent lots of cash in League of Legends, as it was a game that kept me hooked for over two years. I still play it sometimes during weekends, with friends. But I don't think I'll spend anymore cash there because it's not really entertaining for me anymore.
The same goes for Neverwinter. When I bought the Founder's pack I wasn't thinking about cost-effectiveness (if everyone has the same starting AD, my AD is worth lot less - should be obvious to lots of people) but instead a way to be one of the first supporters of the game, and if it lasts (which I dearly hope), I can claim that I made a good bet at least.
It worked for me just like a kickstarter. Crowdfunding doesn't assure you a "good", but by funding lots you can gain perks from the authors.
Characters: - Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer) - Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur) - Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC) - Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
The pricing of the Founders pack seems to be related to 12 months of subscription fees in a subscription MMO. $15 per month for 12 months is $180, then they rounded up to $200 becuase lol greed. I think they would have sold many many more of these if they had brought the price down to $175, or even $199.
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pressexpose1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Maybe it's just me but I'm surprised on how many people are percieving the Founder's pack as a "purchase" rather than a donation.
I have to stop you there. The founders pack is a purchase. it's not a donation. It's not a kickstarter sponsorship. It's a purchase of goods clearly displayed for sale.
If it were otherwise it would have to be legally described as such. Just because you would prefer to believe that your own purchase is somehow helping to fund games at the grass roots level will not make it true.
Neverwinter was already in production before PWE bought Cryptic and the rights. it was an online co-op game of course and PWE decided to turn it into an MMO but that's another story. PWE paid $50M for the company and then sunk money into the development of this game as an MMO. There was no need for your 'donation'.
It's standard industry practice for this model to get the revenue steam flowing as soon as possible but it certainly is not soliciting donations. That would be unlawful without explicitly explaining it as such.
You have entered into a contract of sale and received digital goods in exchange for a purchase. Believe otherwise but stop telling people different because what you say is untrue.
I know how invested in the game you feel, I know that you will be one of the last out the door when the game closes in future. I recognise you from hundreds of others in the same position in other games. Don't let your sycophancy blind you to the truth and certainly don't let it try to fool others into believing the same fallacies.
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steppenkatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I have to stop you there. The founders pack is a purchase. it's not a donation. It's not a kickstarter sponsorship. It's a purchase of goods clearly displayed for sale.
If it were otherwise it would have to be legally described as such. Just because you would prefer to believe that your own purchase is somehow helping to fund games at the grass roots level will not make it true.
Neverwinter was already in production before PWE bought Cryptic and the rights. it was an online co-op game of course and PWE decided to turn it into an MMO but that's another story. PWE paid $50M for the company and then sunk money into the development of this game as an MMO. There was no need for your 'donation'.
It's standard industry practice for this model to get the revenue steam flowing as soon as possible but it certainly is not soliciting donations. That would be unlawful without explicitly explaining it as such.
You have entered into a contract of sale and received digital goods in exchange for a purchase. Believe otherwise but stop telling people different because what you say is untrue.
I know how invested in the game you feel, I know that you will be one of the last out the door when the game closes in future. I recognise you from hundreds of others in the same position in other games. Don't let your sycophancy blind you to the truth and certainly don't let it try to fool others into believing the same fallacies.
Yes, I'm aware of the legislation (I study Law and currently am with consumer law). You should know that the "purchase" of digital goods as such isn't a true purchase but the acquisition of a license. This applies to everything, from books you get from Kindle to MMOs. A license or a permission to use software isn't a handmade product, not something tangible.
Call me old-fashioned but for me, a "good" is something of your property and not having "permission" to use something that can never be yours (the accounts of FtP games aren't yours, you are merely licensed to use them. Hence why you can be banned from tha games).
So yes, everything you spend here is basically a donation to keep the game running. Unless we assume that we have "goods" as digital purchases, which is a fallacy in my opinion.
Characters: - Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer) - Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur) - Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC) - Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
I enjoy the perks of the HoTN pack I purchased but I have not directly purchased Zen yet. Can't pull the trigger until im convinced this game isn't going to implode on itself.
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pressexpose1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Then you are aware that you made a purchase, not a donation. you should not keep repeating your opinion of how you like to feel your purchase is used as a factual notion to other players. You bought a product, even if it is intangible. It's still a product, not a service.
By your logic all income for all companies is a donation to keep the company liquid. In the real world we call that profit.
Whether you purchase your product via traditional physical vectors such as a CD or DVD or via the cloud, you still have purchased a product.
Consumer law in the UK expands the sale of goods act to encompass this fact.
The license you refer to only applies if explicitly expressed ( such as buying a full software product like Microsoft office ) and can not be implied or inferred. So if you made the purchase and right there if it does not say that you are licensed to use the product under condition then you didn't license it. The same as if you believe you have made a donation then your donation would have to be received as such and the goods you receive would have to be explicitly given as a gift.
None of this happens.
You just want to believe that you are helping the company. Well by the same token you help McDonalds when you buy a burger. There is no real world difference. Take that to your tutor. I'm retired from business now but the family have had outlets from hospitality and food right out to my general construction business that I used to operate. I'm familiar with transactions in the real world.
I apologise if I always appear to be arguing. I don't do it for kicks or gratification. I just like people to be factual when offering advice and opinion to others when the ramifications are important.
Got the $60 deal aswell, i did it mostly to get another char slot and to get the mount with it.
i have always tried to get 1 char of each role, tank, healer, ranged+melee dps, so i was abit sad that only 1 extra slot was added.
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pressexpose1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Got the $60 deal aswell, i did it mostly to get another char slot and to get the mount with it.
i have always tried to get 1 char of each role, tank, healer, ranged+melee dps, so i was abit sad that only 1 extra slot was added.
You could have purchased 1100 zen for 10 bucks or whatever it is in monopoly money, and use 500 of them on two character slots.
I also purchased the $200 founders pack and now regret it. Lets face it, 2 of the items you receive actually have the word useless in thier description...and Craptic wasn't kidding.
Helbourne Hero of the North
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pwguMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I've played other PWE games before, mostly blacklight ret, that game seems like it has alot of push back from the devs trying to get PWE to lower / package better deals for zen. But overall PWE is one of the most expensive F2P game companies out there. subsequently I'd never buy a founders pack from PWE because i presume i'm paying an ungodly premium for very little in comparison to actually just spending the zen equivalent in game after launch.
that being said i did transfer the remaining 8 dollars of zen I had into Neverwinter when i main lined it launch week. and just bought keys for boxs / sold items from box to buy more keys. turned 8 dollars into roughly 30 dollars in keys. didn't get ****. A mail bug then lost me a ton of AD on the AH. filed for a ticket... ticket was auto closed... opened ticket again... auto closed... opened ticket again... auto closed... you get the idea.
Went to these forums to post about them closing my ticket that lost me real money (since zen is AD and AD is Zen)
they rewrote my original post then closed my thread.
PWE customer care is non-existent
PWE prices are a crime
PWE has lost this customer.
On another note if i was WOTC i'd be more then a little pissed at the poor job PWE / Cryptic is doing stewarding the MMO IP for D&D
Yes, I'm aware of the legislation (I study Law and currently am with consumer law). You should know that the "purchase" of digital goods as such isn't a true purchase but the acquisition of a license. This applies to everything, from books you get from Kindle to MMOs. A license or a permission to use software isn't a handmade product, not something tangible.
Call me old-fashioned but for me, a "good" is something of your property and not having "permission" to use something that can never be yours (the accounts of FtP games aren't yours, you are merely licensed to use them. Hence why you can be banned from tha games).
So yes, everything you spend here is basically a donation to keep the game running. Unless we assume that we have "goods" as digital purchases, which is a fallacy in my opinion.
Just a small correction to Steppenkat. It actually depends on the EULA which you agreed on, or to be exact the manner to which their product are defined and the rights given or retained.
Case in point for intellectual property rights would be to note the difference of EULA are, a company retains all rights (Hernandez v IGE) and where players hold intellectual property rights (Marc Bragg v Linden Labs). If you read the EULA of Perfectworld closely you would notice under S5 Propriety Rights dictate that all rights belong to the company while S9 Licensing defined their services as in their own words "a limited, non-exclusive, revocable, nontransferable and nonsublicensable license to access and use the Service and the Proprietary Materials".
Because of the definition and terms agreed in EULA, Steppenkat is correct in saying that you are merely granted license to use Perfectworld products when you pay for any purchase. As a license is not an asset with physical form, the law may not regard it as ‘tangible goods'. Since it is regarded not as "tangible goods", your purchase are not "purchase" per se, they are also not donations as donations would be a wrong term to use. Instead I would call it leasing where we make an agreement to which the right or license to use the said propriety, is conveyed to another for a set period of time in return for consideration.
As a summary... when we buy from Perfectworld, we are actually leasing the paid product. Which is why much unlike Steppenkat, I would consider the worth of the lease in the sense how much I am getting in return for the money I pay to lease the products of this game. My personal opinion would be that the package is worth the buy if you consider the manner to which it encompass not just Neverwinter, but also games I may or may not play. On another note, I would also consider this game to have a lot of content potential which is why I wouldn't mind making my investment leasing products from them.
and a small correction to yourself. I live in the EU. The EULA means nothing as my consumer rights trump all of their agreement.
My point was that she should stop referring to her payment as a donation when it is in fact a purchase, She is not funding a new game in the vain of kickstarter. She is purchasing a product. I don't think that the EULA pertains to purchases of extraneous services ( Zen, founder's packs etc. ) ( well not the part that you reference ) but to the game assets.
pressexpose1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
@Xumina. Also, you reference the EULA. I decided to go read it. I can't find it in any of the folders where I have Cryptic content. Can you tell me where it is please? ( not a web reference, a reference to the agreement on my PC )
Whether you purchase your product via traditional physical vectors such as a CD or DVD or via the cloud, you still have purchased a product.
Consumer law in the UK expands the sale of goods act to encompass this fact.
As far as I remember SOGA do not recognize digital software as a "tangible good" simply because SOGA 61(1) defined goods as
- goods includes all personal chattels other than things in action and money, and in Scotland all corporeal moveables except money; and in particular goods includes emblements, industrial growing crops, and things attached to or forming part of the land which are agreed to be severed before sale or under the contract of sale.
Hence if you purchase Neverwinter via CD or DVD, you will only be protected under SOGA for the medium it is transfered on (Albans v International Computers Limited). As Neverwinter is mostly downloaded, SOGA does not apply as the court did not expand in that case whether SOGA would apply to softwares not on transferable tangible media. So it's arguable what you define as product. Albans v International Computers Limited may suggest, due to the limited extent SOGA was expended to protect, when you purchase a game via CD, you are actually purchasing the CD not the software since as I mentioned the court did not expand on the possibility of a "purchased" software being downloaded.
The license you refer to only applies if explicitly expressed ( such as buying a full software product like Microsoft office ) and can not be implied or inferred. So if you made the purchase and right there if it does not say that you are licensed to use the product under condition then you didn't license it. The same as if you believe you have made a donation then your donation would have to be received as such and the goods you receive would have to be explicitly given as a gift.
You didn't read the EULA when you registered didn't you... Also yes I agree it is not a donation, but however I strongly believe it's a lease not a purchase. Hence your Mcdonalds's analogy is kinda off track, unless you get to lease Mcdonalds's burger.
You didn't read the EULA when you registered didn't you... Also yes I agree it is not a donation, but however I strongly believe it's a lease not a purchase. Hence your Mcdonalds's analogy is kinda off track, unless you get to lease Mcdonalds's burger.
My analogy was only in reference to the poster determining that their purchase was a donation. It would stand that any purchase is a donation given the parameters they posted ( I'm unable to determine gender so i use the neutral ).
As for the rest of the post. "Consumer rights in digital products", (Bradgate 2010) makes for good reading. I believe that consumer law in the UK follows much of those recommendations.
@pressexpose1 - EULA is in general an accepted pre-made, with personalized edited terms and condition, contract for the perusal of companies in leasing or selling their virtual products to consumers. It is legally sufficient to act as a binding contract when you click "I Agree".
As all contract goes, it is subjected to the law of the day. However the problem is, the current statutes are a tad insufficient when it comes to dealing with softwares and other virtual goods. The following quote should be good enough for me to get my point across as to what happens when statutes are insufficient.
Consumer Rights in Digital Products by Professor Robert Bradgate, Institute for Commercial Law Studies, University of Sheffield. states that a consumer who complains and invokes the Sale of Goods Act may be told that it does not apply and, because of the relatively low values involved in transactions, is unlikely to consult a lawyer or go to court for an authoritative interpretation of the law.
@pressexpose1 - EULA is in general an accepted pre-made, with personalized edited terms and condition, contract for the perusal of companies in leasing or selling their virtual products to consumers. It is legally sufficient to act as a binding contract when you click "I Agree".
As all contract goes, it is subjected to the law of the day. However the problem is, the current statutes are a tad insufficient when it comes to dealing with softwares and other virtual goods. The following quote should be good enough for me to get my point across as to what happens when statutes are insufficient.
Consumer Rights in Digital Products by Professor Robert Bradgate, Institute for Commercial Law Studies, University of Sheffield. states that a consumer who complains and invokes the Sale of Goods Act may be told that it does not apply and, because of the relatively low values involved in transactions, is unlikely to consult a lawyer or go to court for an authoritative interpretation of the law.
If i choose to contest it, an EULA is meaningless if it infinges upon my civil liberties and rights as a consumer in the UK. So it can say what it llikes and much of it might be valid but at the point at which it supposes to supercede my rights under the SOGA 1979 UK then it becomes worthless no matter how many ticks i made in boxes. Hell, all you have to prove now is that comapnies know that you don't read the agreements before ticking the box ( and they do ) and it's null and void. That just takes a bit of research.
And you are quoting from a research report that i previously referenced to you. not the law.
Note that recommendation by academics does not equate to that being the law. The law will always be made by the legislation branch of the government not academic reports, although you may also argue laws have been "made" by courts in their statutory interpretation process but it would be a totally different and long discussion. The court will always look to past precedent as the first choice in referencing, followed by the statutes, self interpretation of the statutes and finally the other references.
There merely have been discussion papers, commissions set up, academic debates going round recommending expansion of UK laws to include digital purchases/downloads but as far as I know, nothing have been done.
Yeah I have to agree had I been more knowledgeable about how th Zen market works here I would not of bought a Founder pack. I understand being F2P they have to do things to make money but some things are overpriced ($20 for a companion) and some things are absurd ($6 for slightly larger bank space).
If i choose to contest it, an EULA is meaningless if it infinges upon my civil liberties and rights as a consumer in the UK. So it can say what it llikes and much of it might be valid but at the point at which it supposes to supercede my rights under the SOGA 1979 UK then it becomes worthless no matter how many ticks i made in boxes. Hell, all you have to prove now is that comapnies know that you don't read the agreements before ticking the box ( and they do ) and it's null and void. That just takes a bit of research.
A contract is a contract, despite the fact UK have the UCTA or unfair contract terms act, the law as I mentioned is woefully insufficient to deal with such cases. Your rights as a consumer is not worth a penny if you are not protected under the law due to insufficient statutes in the first place. SOGA 1979 DO NOT cover digital products, so you might not have any rights under SOGA should you choose to contest in court, unless the Lord Justice interprete the current insufficient law to extent protection to your case. Just an additional trivia, stop talking about SOGA when it comes to EULA. When discussing rights infringement by EULA, whether the contract is applicable or not, you refer to UCTA.
The courts assume you read the contract regardless whether you did or not, or whether you actually understood what you are reading, heck you don't even need to know English, so long as you agree to the contract unless you were under duress when you agreed to it you may be legally bound to the contract. (Curtis v Chemical Cleaning & Dyeing Company) But of course the terms of the contract or in this case EULA MUST be place in a way where you as a user are given a reasonable opportunity to find and read the terms without much effort for instance when you register an account.
A contract is a contract, despite the fact UK have the UCTA or unfair contract terms act, the law as I mentioned is woefully insufficient to deal with such cases. Your rights as a consumer is not worth a penny if you are not protected under the law due to insufficient statutes in the first place. SOGA 1979 DO NOT cover digital products, so you might not have any rights under SOGA should you choose to contest in court, unless the Lord Justice interprete the current insufficient law to extent protection to your case. Just an additional trivia, stop talking about SOGA when it comes to EULA. When discussing rights infringement by EULA, whether the contract is applicable or not, you refer to UCTA.
The courts assume you read the contract regardless whether you did or not, or whether you actually understood what you are reading, heck you don't even need to know English, so long as you agree to the contract unless you were under duress when you agreed to it you may be legally bound to the contract. (Curtis v Chemical Cleaning & Dyeing Company) But of course the terms of the contract or in this case EULA MUST be place in a way where you as a user are given a reasonable opportunity to find and read the terms without much effort for instance when you register an account.
Your statutory rights remain and take precedence.
However this is a pointless distraction leading away from the point which was that the fanboy insists that founders pack purchases are a donation for the development of the game ( and persists in doing this, repeatedly ) I want to make sure that this lie is not perpetuated.
the main reason i got the 200 dollar pack was the 5 day head start,i actually was downloading different mmo betas and i never expected that i would like these game and once i tried it i was hooked,only played the third weekend beta and i have created a second account and spent 50 dollars on it.
Even if i stop playing the game next month or tommorow i got awsome value from it,i joined a great guild ,i got to kill undead in a medieval setting ,save damsels in distress tumble with some ladie rogues.
And most people that spent that 200 dollars did it for the head start the queqe jumping and they dont regret it but love it.
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If there hadn't been some massive exploiting it would have been a massive early boost to people. As it is I think most people want to convert that AD into zen, so its making the conversion more expensive, until people have spent that early boost.
Personally I would have preferred founders got zen, cause then the rate would be better for me to buy through playing, but it would have meant there might have been slightly less spent on buying zen.
Comparing items of a similar type is healthy imo, for the consumer and producer. Be it comparing mmos from diff companies, tacos from diff restraunts, cars from diff manufacturers, or any other items that exist in a competitive marketplace. If it wasn't for comparisons and 'idea stealing' newer generation items wouldn't have nearly the mass appeal that producers want, or the wide range of 'standard of living' additions consumers want.
Not necessarily in all instances. It can skew expectations. Saying that one game gives you this and that whilst another game gives you this and is therefore better is just wrong. You have to judge things on face value.
If I were to compare all parts of this game with other games in a similar genre of late than I'd be even more disappointed with it than I am already.
Agreed, comparisons based on features as opposed to content is needed in the case of mmos. Comparing the content of a fledgling mmo's 6 dungeons 0 raids to a seasoned mmos 20 dungeons 10 raids is both counter productive and asanine.
Id still argue thst comparing features like instance finder or crafting mechanics is overall productive for current and future mmos though.
Maybe it's just me but I'm surprised on how many people are percieving the Founder's pack as a "purchase" rather than a donation. Don't get me wrong, your position is understandable.
In my opinion, "buying" digital goods is a sink. You don't buy anything. It's just pixels. So, for me, the notion of "paying for stuff" in MMOs in other games is alien. However, I find perfectly acceptable to buy currency and expend it in the games I play.
It's because I see this as a way of supporting the game. Do I gain something for buying a costume for a character? I bought a Courtesan Outfit for a CW that I hardly use anymore, though I'll probably pick her up and max someday. I bought Dyes for some costumes and other stuff. I tried opening Lockboxes for fun, to see how they worked. And recently I just bought 2 Bags of Holding, one to send to someone and another for myself.
The thing is, I don't feel like I'm getting an advantage more than instant satisfaction or maybe a perk or two. You will never feel completely satisfied when purchasing a digital good, in my opinion. Basically because it isn't tangible, not really something you "own".
However, I truly enjoy this game and I think it has lots of potentials. And I like to support the things I enjoy playing. I've spent lots of cash in League of Legends, as it was a game that kept me hooked for over two years. I still play it sometimes during weekends, with friends. But I don't think I'll spend anymore cash there because it's not really entertaining for me anymore.
The same goes for Neverwinter. When I bought the Founder's pack I wasn't thinking about cost-effectiveness (if everyone has the same starting AD, my AD is worth lot less - should be obvious to lots of people) but instead a way to be one of the first supporters of the game, and if it lasts (which I dearly hope), I can claim that I made a good bet at least.
It worked for me just like a kickstarter. Crowdfunding doesn't assure you a "good", but by funding lots you can gain perks from the authors.
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
I have to stop you there. The founders pack is a purchase. it's not a donation. It's not a kickstarter sponsorship. It's a purchase of goods clearly displayed for sale.
If it were otherwise it would have to be legally described as such. Just because you would prefer to believe that your own purchase is somehow helping to fund games at the grass roots level will not make it true.
Neverwinter was already in production before PWE bought Cryptic and the rights. it was an online co-op game of course and PWE decided to turn it into an MMO but that's another story. PWE paid $50M for the company and then sunk money into the development of this game as an MMO. There was no need for your 'donation'.
It's standard industry practice for this model to get the revenue steam flowing as soon as possible but it certainly is not soliciting donations. That would be unlawful without explicitly explaining it as such.
You have entered into a contract of sale and received digital goods in exchange for a purchase. Believe otherwise but stop telling people different because what you say is untrue.
I know how invested in the game you feel, I know that you will be one of the last out the door when the game closes in future. I recognise you from hundreds of others in the same position in other games. Don't let your sycophancy blind you to the truth and certainly don't let it try to fool others into believing the same fallacies.
Yes, I'm aware of the legislation (I study Law and currently am with consumer law). You should know that the "purchase" of digital goods as such isn't a true purchase but the acquisition of a license. This applies to everything, from books you get from Kindle to MMOs. A license or a permission to use software isn't a handmade product, not something tangible.
Call me old-fashioned but for me, a "good" is something of your property and not having "permission" to use something that can never be yours (the accounts of FtP games aren't yours, you are merely licensed to use them. Hence why you can be banned from tha games).
So yes, everything you spend here is basically a donation to keep the game running. Unless we assume that we have "goods" as digital purchases, which is a fallacy in my opinion.
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
Then you are aware that you made a purchase, not a donation. you should not keep repeating your opinion of how you like to feel your purchase is used as a factual notion to other players. You bought a product, even if it is intangible. It's still a product, not a service.
By your logic all income for all companies is a donation to keep the company liquid. In the real world we call that profit.
Whether you purchase your product via traditional physical vectors such as a CD or DVD or via the cloud, you still have purchased a product.
Consumer law in the UK expands the sale of goods act to encompass this fact.
The license you refer to only applies if explicitly expressed ( such as buying a full software product like Microsoft office ) and can not be implied or inferred. So if you made the purchase and right there if it does not say that you are licensed to use the product under condition then you didn't license it. The same as if you believe you have made a donation then your donation would have to be received as such and the goods you receive would have to be explicitly given as a gift.
None of this happens.
You just want to believe that you are helping the company. Well by the same token you help McDonalds when you buy a burger. There is no real world difference. Take that to your tutor. I'm retired from business now but the family have had outlets from hospitality and food right out to my general construction business that I used to operate. I'm familiar with transactions in the real world.
I apologise if I always appear to be arguing. I don't do it for kicks or gratification. I just like people to be factual when offering advice and opinion to others when the ramifications are important.
i have always tried to get 1 char of each role, tank, healer, ranged+melee dps, so i was abit sad that only 1 extra slot was added.
Hero of the North
that being said i did transfer the remaining 8 dollars of zen I had into Neverwinter when i main lined it launch week. and just bought keys for boxs / sold items from box to buy more keys. turned 8 dollars into roughly 30 dollars in keys. didn't get ****. A mail bug then lost me a ton of AD on the AH. filed for a ticket... ticket was auto closed... opened ticket again... auto closed... opened ticket again... auto closed... you get the idea.
Went to these forums to post about them closing my ticket that lost me real money (since zen is AD and AD is Zen)
they rewrote my original post then closed my thread.
PWE customer care is non-existent
PWE prices are a crime
PWE has lost this customer.
On another note if i was WOTC i'd be more then a little pissed at the poor job PWE / Cryptic is doing stewarding the MMO IP for D&D
Hero of the North
Just a small correction to Steppenkat. It actually depends on the EULA which you agreed on, or to be exact the manner to which their product are defined and the rights given or retained.
Case in point for intellectual property rights would be to note the difference of EULA are, a company retains all rights (Hernandez v IGE) and where players hold intellectual property rights (Marc Bragg v Linden Labs). If you read the EULA of Perfectworld closely you would notice under S5 Propriety Rights dictate that all rights belong to the company while S9 Licensing defined their services as in their own words "a limited, non-exclusive, revocable, nontransferable and nonsublicensable license to access and use the Service and the Proprietary Materials".
Because of the definition and terms agreed in EULA, Steppenkat is correct in saying that you are merely granted license to use Perfectworld products when you pay for any purchase. As a license is not an asset with physical form, the law may not regard it as ‘tangible goods'. Since it is regarded not as "tangible goods", your purchase are not "purchase" per se, they are also not donations as donations would be a wrong term to use. Instead I would call it leasing where we make an agreement to which the right or license to use the said propriety, is conveyed to another for a set period of time in return for consideration.
As a summary... when we buy from Perfectworld, we are actually leasing the paid product. Which is why much unlike Steppenkat, I would consider the worth of the lease in the sense how much I am getting in return for the money I pay to lease the products of this game. My personal opinion would be that the package is worth the buy if you consider the manner to which it encompass not just Neverwinter, but also games I may or may not play. On another note, I would also consider this game to have a lot of content potential which is why I wouldn't mind making my investment leasing products from them.
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
and a small correction to yourself. I live in the EU. The EULA means nothing as my consumer rights trump all of their agreement.
My point was that she should stop referring to her payment as a donation when it is in fact a purchase, She is not funding a new game in the vain of kickstarter. She is purchasing a product. I don't think that the EULA pertains to purchases of extraneous services ( Zen, founder's packs etc. ) ( well not the part that you reference ) but to the game assets.
Lol level 10 takes 1 hour at most, stopped reading here.
As far as I remember SOGA do not recognize digital software as a "tangible good" simply because SOGA 61(1) defined goods as
- goods includes all personal chattels other than things in action and money, and in Scotland all corporeal moveables except money; and in particular goods includes emblements, industrial growing crops, and things attached to or forming part of the land which are agreed to be severed before sale or under the contract of sale.
Hence if you purchase Neverwinter via CD or DVD, you will only be protected under SOGA for the medium it is transfered on (Albans v International Computers Limited). As Neverwinter is mostly downloaded, SOGA does not apply as the court did not expand in that case whether SOGA would apply to softwares not on transferable tangible media. So it's arguable what you define as product. Albans v International Computers Limited may suggest, due to the limited extent SOGA was expended to protect, when you purchase a game via CD, you are actually purchasing the CD not the software since as I mentioned the court did not expand on the possibility of a "purchased" software being downloaded.
You didn't read the EULA when you registered didn't you...
My analogy was only in reference to the poster determining that their purchase was a donation. It would stand that any purchase is a donation given the parameters they posted ( I'm unable to determine gender so i use the neutral ).
As for the rest of the post. "Consumer rights in digital products", (Bradgate 2010) makes for good reading. I believe that consumer law in the UK follows much of those recommendations.
As all contract goes, it is subjected to the law of the day. However the problem is, the current statutes are a tad insufficient when it comes to dealing with softwares and other virtual goods. The following quote should be good enough for me to get my point across as to what happens when statutes are insufficient.
Consumer Rights in Digital Products by Professor Robert Bradgate, Institute for Commercial Law Studies, University of Sheffield. states that a consumer who complains and invokes the Sale of Goods Act may be told that it does not apply and, because of the relatively low values involved in transactions, is unlikely to consult a lawyer or go to court for an authoritative interpretation of the law.
If i choose to contest it, an EULA is meaningless if it infinges upon my civil liberties and rights as a consumer in the UK. So it can say what it llikes and much of it might be valid but at the point at which it supposes to supercede my rights under the SOGA 1979 UK then it becomes worthless no matter how many ticks i made in boxes. Hell, all you have to prove now is that comapnies know that you don't read the agreements before ticking the box ( and they do ) and it's null and void. That just takes a bit of research.
And you are quoting from a research report that i previously referenced to you. not the law.
There merely have been discussion papers, commissions set up, academic debates going round recommending expansion of UK laws to include digital purchases/downloads but as far as I know, nothing have been done.
A contract is a contract, despite the fact UK have the UCTA or unfair contract terms act, the law as I mentioned is woefully insufficient to deal with such cases. Your rights as a consumer is not worth a penny if you are not protected under the law due to insufficient statutes in the first place. SOGA 1979 DO NOT cover digital products, so you might not have any rights under SOGA should you choose to contest in court, unless the Lord Justice interprete the current insufficient law to extent protection to your case. Just an additional trivia, stop talking about SOGA when it comes to EULA. When discussing rights infringement by EULA, whether the contract is applicable or not, you refer to UCTA.
The courts assume you read the contract regardless whether you did or not, or whether you actually understood what you are reading, heck you don't even need to know English, so long as you agree to the contract unless you were under duress when you agreed to it you may be legally bound to the contract. (Curtis v Chemical Cleaning & Dyeing Company) But of course the terms of the contract or in this case EULA MUST be place in a way where you as a user are given a reasonable opportunity to find and read the terms without much effort for instance when you register an account.
Your statutory rights remain and take precedence.
However this is a pointless distraction leading away from the point which was that the fanboy insists that founders pack purchases are a donation for the development of the game ( and persists in doing this, repeatedly ) I want to make sure that this lie is not perpetuated.
Even if i stop playing the game next month or tommorow i got awsome value from it,i joined a great guild ,i got to kill undead in a medieval setting ,save damsels in distress tumble with some ladie rogues.
And most people that spent that 200 dollars did it for the head start the queqe jumping and they dont regret it but love it.