dnh2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited May 2013
This is so annoying. I didn't get a cat, I didn't get millions of AD. I spent $70 on this game so far and was trying to plug away and earn money by doing dailies in this game. What do I get for my money and time? Probably nothing, while people will be allowed to keep their pets, and thus have more value in terms of $ than I do because of an exploit. Fun...
If they are going to do wipes, then they should give everybody that spent real money huge perks. At least it's a way to tell someone was playing the game legitimately.
A rollback won't cut it. Negative AH bidding was visible on day 2 of open beta, so the economy has been undermined since nearly the beginning. The only thing that changed was mass access to the bug after the initiators got bored with all the currency and gear and publicized it. A rollback to when, day 2? And note that a "wipe" does not have to be a character wipe, they can wipe all items and gear and leave all existing toons as they are. That may be the best compromise to avoid the wipe HAMSTER off factor.
"Men do not stop playing because they grow old. They grow old because they stop playing." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
I just wanted to say I appreciate the half-hourly updates. Many game companies would just say "it'll be up when it's up" and leave us all hanging.
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rude81Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited May 2013
If you consider a wipe, there is no need to do a full wipe. Why? Because there is a good compromise between wipe and healthy economy.
Keep the character levels, the job levels, the kill records and titles and the quest record. Drop all items, equipment, gold, diamonds and zen. Refund the paying customers.
And of course keep all Foundry content.
Would be the solution for me to aim for if i was in charge of the game. After identifying and banning the abusers these steps are easily achieved by just a few database operations.
Fools, you did even read the paypal EULA, you have no protection on digital goods.. here is a quote.
11.5 Items/transactions not eligible for PayPal Sellerprotection. The following are examples of items/transactions not eligible for PayPal Seller protection.
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sumitosMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited May 2013
Simple solution
1.let the admins continue to find those that quietly used the exploit in the AH and ban their accounts etc,
2.roll back from when it was found out into trade chat - solved that issue,
3.Compensate every toon on each shard with 5mil Ad and 1k zen. This will shut people up about the rollback(if it happens). They'll be 2 happy playing with the zen/Ad to care.
Sure everything will go silly with all that ad/zen burning a hole in their back pocket (so to speak), but it will settle down within a week most likely... this will make everyone a win/win situation to perfectworld and everyone playing beta.
I hope you don't work for a bank. The Currency systems in this game eventually have a Real Money source (Cash for Zen, Zen for AD/AD for Zen) If that data is not in a transaction and the columns in the tables that handle that currency are not constrained to prevent stupidity like this, at some point an audit is going to ruin PWE. Check Constraints are very very light in nature. CHECK BidAmt >0, is not going to slow anything down. Keeping money from disappearing is what Databases were created for. Financial transaction are contained in a transaction and the values have check constraints to make sure that the data is valid.
Any other design decision is lunacy.
I agree with the notion of this, I hadn't thought of it this way. This is probably the ideal solution for a financial system. The ideal solution does ofcourse not always mean it is implemented the way that seems apparent. I have seen (and this IS anecdotal, I'm not saying this is correct) financial institutions have their 'input applications', for instance their web interface, or the check processing interface, dump their output in a queue of sorts. This queue will be processed asynchronously by the master financial database. If a constraint/check of some sort is failed, it will report this back to the original application, and the transaction will be rolled back. This way the 'front end' will retain its high performance, and the back-end retains its integrity.
This seems like a best-of-both worlds approach. The delay between the creation of the transaction and the processing of it in the back-end would certainly be minor, and probably not even noticeable by a user of the front-end application.
read what they say people. (performing character-specific rollbacks on any accounts that were found to be utilizing the exploit). This means they will be setting back anyones account that had something to do with it. So if you were dumb enough to fall for this you need to be set back anyways.
I read that and thought "so the only thing going to happen to people who used this exploit that destroyed the game world economy is a rollback". Not near enough of a punishment considering the damage done to the game.
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inyourmomsboxMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited May 2013
We are still investigating the situation. There is a high likelihood that we will be performing character-specific rollbacks on any accounts that were found to be utilizing the exploit. Additionally, we are investigating the extent of what can additional steps can be taken to remove any illegitimately obtained Astral Diamonds that have entered into the economy. We are also investigating the possibility of a shard-wide rollback.
That's not good enough. Flag the IP address of the offenders and ban them from the game. At the very least give their characters the title "****** Bag", permanently in-game and don't allow them to change it ever, so other players know who a$$hats behind this downtime are. Give legit players the option to shun these clowns from further transactions.
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bexter7Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited May 2013
I just have a question: Can someone explain what exactly happened? In know there is an exploit, but
How did they exploit the AH/AD? Im just curious as I am waiting to see what is going to happen. OR
Is it not known what they did?
EITHER WAY...Whatever needs to be done to fix the problem, then so be it. Ill still be here waiting and
ready to play when its up and running. I like this game and enjoy it. I just think it stinks when some
people feel the need to exploit and ruin it for others who really enjoy the game and play it honestly!:D
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dnh2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited May 2013
This is so annoying. I didn't get a cat, I didn't get millions of AD. I spent $70 on this game so far and was trying to plug away and earn money by doing dailies in this game. What do I get for my money and time? Probably nothing, while people will be allowed to keep their pets, and thus have more value in terms of $ than I do because of an exploit. Fun...
If they are going to do wipes, then they should give everybody that spent real money huge perks. At least it's a way to tell someone was playing the game legitimately.
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voklesh010Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
People, you really have to stop complaining. You know you are playing a beta, which means this game is being tested. During testing there is always the possibility of things getting so screwed up that they will have to start from the beginning. By playing a Beta game you are agreeing to partake in these risks. I am certain that if any roll back/wipe occurs any money spent on this game will be refunded/ or credited.
Making an MMO is a massive undertaking where there is lots of room for error. Be patient with the developers so they can make a polished game that will entertain for years. Help them out by providing positive feedback that they can use. And finally, if you are not willing to lose all that you have worked for, THEN DONT PLAY BETA!
As to everyone else, hope to see you in game in a few hours!
A have played in a lots of betas but i never pay for that. If i pay for something i demand to have what i have payed for. So i payed to begin before others . How they can refound that ?
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clortbagsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
That's not good enough. Flag the IP address of the offenders and ban them from the game. At the very least give their characters the title "****** Bag", permanently in-game and don't allow them to change it ever, so other players know who a$$hats behind this downtime are. Give legit players the option to shun these clowns from further transactions.
Matter of fact, make the IP's public! That'll give us something to do while we're waiting for the game to be fixed
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dizmaloneMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
They need to do a full wipe or this game is over. Just look at the poll. A large majority of the players who want to continue playing this game want a full wipe. Not to mention a full wipe helps PWE legally. If they do not perform a full wipe this game is dead and PWE can enjoy a long summer of class action law suits...
Yes a lot of people are agreeing to a wipe, but there are also a lot of people who aren't aware of what is going on. I don't agree with a wipe, and I'm sure there are a lot of people who are with me on that. No one likes to waste their time or money...And I know there are ways to fix this problem with out a wipe.....
"BETA" says everything that people need to know. I was surprised to see that the company was taking real money for a beta product. I guess some people have not been around long enough to understand the potential for trouble there.
What really surprises me is that these issues were not discovered sooner. The game is free to play. There is zero barrier to entry and zero reason to not to try to break it. If I were a game dev writing a program that people were going to spend money on, the FIRST thing I would make sure was iron clad is the economy.
This is not the first game that has had problems with the economy due to poor programming. I doubt it will be the last.
If I were smart and not lazy, I would write a simple Auction House database with proper transaction controls and sell it to every MMO dev out there. It is pretty obviously a big problem for the community.
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clockwerkninjaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Wipe servers and start legit. I would rather know my money is invested in a game that take seriously actions such as this . To the point of a reset. Players should know exploiting can and will not profit in the long run.. Also let us put to bed the beta/ soft launch debate once and for all..Stand by your beta test, wipe it..
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Quote Originally Posted by roents
It's an "open beta" that can't be wiped even in the midst of multiple economy destroying exploits. FUN
I honestly don't care about the state of the "virtual economy". I use what my character can find. I care more about storyline and playability than some perceived advantage. Does another character have more money or equipment than I? I don't care.
The point is that it *does* affect you. If you craft or want to upgrade the gems you find on your own, you will need materials that are purchased and traded, and the price you will have to pay for those will vastly exceed what you will be able to pay based on just playing with what you find. That may be ok with you and if so that's fine, but don't overstate the degree to which others are insulated from this problem. Most players ultimately want things they cannot find on their own. Every one of them will be affected by this problem, even if you aren't.
"Men do not stop playing because they grow old. They grow old because they stop playing." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
one or two things you could do to fix this problem for good.
1. wipe the servers give ppl there Zen back and packs and what ever they bought from real money.
2. make a new server for players that want a new start and a sure thing that the eco. is fixed, give them there zen packs and so on to there char. on the new server.
I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but here we go....
1) I very, very rarely comment on forums anymore. I've played most every major MMO since Ultima Online, and there's a reason that I now mostly solo until I can't any longer, and then move on. I honestly can't stand dealing with other people. That's what real life is for, and I play games to unwind from that. Not targeted at you, but just a little personal background.
2) I'll admit, I've only been playing for two days, on a free beta key, and haven't spent any money on the game yet. My understanding is that the game is in beta and I was waiting to drop my 200$ on the drow pack once I determined if I liked it. I'm currently level 16 with the only character I have built. Based on my experience so far, I'll most likely spend the cash in the next week or two.
3) Up to this point, and I speak as someone who had a rare three hours of uninterrupted game time lost (Servers dropped just as I was finishing Cloak Tower; boss was literally at less than 3% life), I have experienced only one glitch in a quest. I forget the name of it, but it was, I think, with Denelaith (sp?) not following me out of the sewers. After a restart, I ran back through, and it worked perfectly. I have beta'ed over a dozen games, and this is the most polished one I've ever seen. Granted, I've not come very far compared to the rest of you, but I'm a casual player. I'm a representative of the target demographic that, in our silent majority, pays the way for the games the power-gamer enjoys. Your hyperbole is a reaction of your current frustration, and I understand that, but I feel it does little to forward the positive progress of this game.
4) This is just a point for others out there that I have read in my lurking on these forums. I, and the hundreds of thousands like me, who have no compunction to post on these forums, or use the AH, or spend money (for now) on Zen or AD, are waiting to see how things unfold. I honestly don't care about the state of the "virtual economy". I use what my character can find. I care more about storyline and playability than some perceived advantage. Does another character have more money or equipment than I? I don't care. Let them enjoy it, as long as I can enjoy the game in my own right. I maxxed out on DDO at 14th level. Did I reach the max level? No. Did I have the awesome gear that someone else had? No. Did I enjoy the 3+ years I played the game? Absolutely! Maybe...just maybe...it's time for MMO players to stop comparing playstyles, gear, builds, and accomplishments, and learn to enjoy the experience. I've never been in a large guild, never had the best stuff, and in only one game have I achieved max level, but I love these games because they give me never-ending content. I used to have to pay monthly for that, and was glad to do it. Now I only pay for what I want. I have no room to complain. Do any of you? Really?
Flame away.
You can play with me and we can be educated adults gaming together. lol
Oh please it takes 1-2 days of /played to reach 60 even if you do every **** skirmish and dungeon while leveling. So saying a wipe is not an option because people cant level up again is total bs.
24 hours in one day, and 48 in two.
Playing 2 hours a day would take 2 weeks of playing every day to reach level 60. This is true for an extremely large portion of the player base.
Why don't they just open up a new shard/server/(what ever its called) for everyone who wanted a full wipe to make a new character on, where everything starts fresh. Maybe some nice perks like a week of double exp/(other cool things for starting fresh).
No 1 day 60s, no markets flooded with exploited end game gear, no worthless AD. Would solve everything for everyone that wanted a fresh start.
Just PLEASE FIX ALL THESE MAJOR EXPLOITS BEFORE MAKING IT.
In addition, everyone who doesn't want a wipe would not be affected by this.
it will be rollback and maybe wipe (i hope wipe) but game is good solid and for this ppl that keeps if rollback i quit a game i will tell this SYA thears is other 1k mmorpg you can play and complain and this is free game dont like go pay 30$ in month if you want game no bugs no dawn no fix o wait thats not a thing in this days i play free mmo in open beta and complain complain complain
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maisaanMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 166
edited May 2013
Punishing every single player because someone is exploiting the game will make honest gamers loose faith in the game, because they will never know when they are going to do a roll back again. If they choose to do so, will it then be worth spending more time and money in the game? I would really have to consider my future in the game then.
But I have faith that they will not do so.
I personally think anyone who has already spent REAL MONEY on a BETA is ****ing crazy. If you are stupid enough to have already spent real money on a game in BETA and you lose it...then tough titty. Anyone who has played an MMO in BETA knows that anything is possible...a wipe, a rollback; whatever to make the game RIGHT. I can't tell you how many BETAS I've played and before the game was released they did a complete wipe and I lost whatever progress on whatever character I had created. IT'S TO BE EXPECTED....
Seeing as this AH bug have been in the closed beta, and countless reports of it have been given to Cryptic without they doing anything about it and still take money from people. I now really want a refund of the money I have spent on Zen. I really feel like I have been pissed on and someone stole my money.
Some even say they let the bug slide so Cryptic could make more money off us that had no idea of the exploit and therefore could buy more zen to convert to AD. So that one could buy items with such inflated prices.
I have spent quite a bit, how possible is it to get a refund for Zen, but keep your account and North Founder pack without geting banned for a refund? Or how does this work?
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clortbagsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Comments
If they are going to do wipes, then they should give everybody that spent real money huge perks. At least it's a way to tell someone was playing the game legitimately.
I will be seriously annoyed if there is a rollback. Just fix the HAMSTER bug, ban the peeps and let us get on with the game.
The MMO may change but the inventory tetris stays the same.
Keep the character levels, the job levels, the kill records and titles and the quest record. Drop all items, equipment, gold, diamonds and zen. Refund the paying customers.
And of course keep all Foundry content.
Would be the solution for me to aim for if i was in charge of the game. After identifying and banning the abusers these steps are easily achieved by just a few database operations.
1.let the admins continue to find those that quietly used the exploit in the AH and ban their accounts etc,
2.roll back from when it was found out into trade chat - solved that issue,
3.Compensate every toon on each shard with 5mil Ad and 1k zen. This will shut people up about the rollback(if it happens). They'll be 2 happy playing with the zen/Ad to care.
Sure everything will go silly with all that ad/zen burning a hole in their back pocket (so to speak), but it will settle down within a week most likely... this will make everyone a win/win situation to perfectworld and everyone playing beta.
I agree with the notion of this, I hadn't thought of it this way. This is probably the ideal solution for a financial system. The ideal solution does ofcourse not always mean it is implemented the way that seems apparent. I have seen (and this IS anecdotal, I'm not saying this is correct) financial institutions have their 'input applications', for instance their web interface, or the check processing interface, dump their output in a queue of sorts. This queue will be processed asynchronously by the master financial database. If a constraint/check of some sort is failed, it will report this back to the original application, and the transaction will be rolled back. This way the 'front end' will retain its high performance, and the back-end retains its integrity.
This seems like a best-of-both worlds approach. The delay between the creation of the transaction and the processing of it in the back-end would certainly be minor, and probably not even noticeable by a user of the front-end application.
I read that and thought "so the only thing going to happen to people who used this exploit that destroyed the game world economy is a rollback". Not near enough of a punishment considering the damage done to the game.
That's not good enough. Flag the IP address of the offenders and ban them from the game. At the very least give their characters the title "****** Bag", permanently in-game and don't allow them to change it ever, so other players know who a$$hats behind this downtime are. Give legit players the option to shun these clowns from further transactions.
How did they exploit the AH/AD? Im just curious as I am waiting to see what is going to happen. OR
Is it not known what they did?
EITHER WAY...Whatever needs to be done to fix the problem, then so be it. Ill still be here waiting and
ready to play when its up and running. I like this game and enjoy it. I just think it stinks when some
people feel the need to exploit and ruin it for others who really enjoy the game and play it honestly!:D
If they are going to do wipes, then they should give everybody that spent real money huge perks. At least it's a way to tell someone was playing the game legitimately.
A have played in a lots of betas but i never pay for that. If i pay for something i demand to have what i have payed for. So i payed to begin before others . How they can refound that ?
Twitter update...
Matter of fact, make the IP's public! That'll give us something to do while we're waiting for the game to be fixed
Yes a lot of people are agreeing to a wipe, but there are also a lot of people who aren't aware of what is going on. I don't agree with a wipe, and I'm sure there are a lot of people who are with me on that. No one likes to waste their time or money...And I know there are ways to fix this problem with out a wipe.....
"BETA" says everything that people need to know. I was surprised to see that the company was taking real money for a beta product. I guess some people have not been around long enough to understand the potential for trouble there.
What really surprises me is that these issues were not discovered sooner. The game is free to play. There is zero barrier to entry and zero reason to not to try to break it. If I were a game dev writing a program that people were going to spend money on, the FIRST thing I would make sure was iron clad is the economy.
This is not the first game that has had problems with the economy due to poor programming. I doubt it will be the last.
If I were smart and not lazy, I would write a simple Auction House database with proper transaction controls and sell it to every MMO dev out there. It is pretty obviously a big problem for the community.
Quote Originally Posted by roents
It's an "open beta" that can't be wiped even in the midst of multiple economy destroying exploits. FUN
The point is that it *does* affect you. If you craft or want to upgrade the gems you find on your own, you will need materials that are purchased and traded, and the price you will have to pay for those will vastly exceed what you will be able to pay based on just playing with what you find. That may be ok with you and if so that's fine, but don't overstate the degree to which others are insulated from this problem. Most players ultimately want things they cannot find on their own. Every one of them will be affected by this problem, even if you aren't.
1. wipe the servers give ppl there Zen back and packs and what ever they bought from real money.
2. make a new server for players that want a new start and a sure thing that the eco. is fixed, give them there zen packs and so on to there char. on the new server.
You can play with me and we can be educated adults gaming together. lol
24 hours in one day, and 48 in two.
Playing 2 hours a day would take 2 weeks of playing every day to reach level 60. This is true for an extremely large portion of the player base.
No 1 day 60s, no markets flooded with exploited end game gear, no worthless AD. Would solve everything for everyone that wanted a fresh start.
Just PLEASE FIX ALL THESE MAJOR EXPLOITS BEFORE MAKING IT.
In addition, everyone who doesn't want a wipe would not be affected by this.
Isn't this the obvious solution?
But I have faith that they will not do so.
Some even say they let the bug slide so Cryptic could make more money off us that had no idea of the exploit and therefore could buy more zen to convert to AD. So that one could buy items with such inflated prices.
I have spent quite a bit, how possible is it to get a refund for Zen, but keep your account and North Founder pack without geting banned for a refund? Or how does this work?
Filthy casuals...