Really Ranncore? I would have thought such terminology was below even you.
GF's are broken. Badly. Clerics hold threat 5x better than the tank class. That is broken. This needs to be fixed hard and fast. When people are bringing 2 healers into a group rather than a tank, there is a serious problem.
The best group for most dungeons are 2 clerics, 1 GF, 1 CW and a rogue. Clerics and CWs deal with adds, throw them into nothingness, while the GF holds the boss and the rogue deals with it. Two rogues might be quicker but forcing the rogue to dodge also takes a lot of potions and time, and the GF can do that better.
It's not because you don't like the game mechanics that something is broken. It's fine. People who know how to play will value skilled and tanky GFs. If random groups don't though, i don't mind. Random groups shouldn't be considered as the best example of success, since most of them fail when they don't exploit in T2s.
offensive GF can tank as good as, if not better than a full defensive one (because they have better threat gen) and can out damage any class, people still dont know that's why they're still kicking us out. The only thing a def GF has over the offensive one are a few points in damage reduction (5-6% and deflect 5-6% [def with grand regent, off with timeless])I personally just run with 1 DC and 1 CW from my guild then take anything that queues with us (also guildies ofc).
offensive GF can tank as good as, if not better than a full defensive one (because they have better threat gen) and can out damage any class, people still dont know that's why they're still kicking us out. The only thing a def GF has over the offensive one are a few points in damage reduction (5-6% and deflect 5-6% [def with grand regent, off with timeless])I personally just run with 1 DC and 1 CW from my guild then take anything that queues with us (also guildies ofc).
There are multiple issues with GF's one is that the DPS GF is far far far superior at threat gen, and tam contribution than a defensive guardian.
Having said that, I feel on a long enough time line that will get resolved.
Now this two cleric situation with the armor stacking buff needs to be fixed like 3 weeks ago. ANYTIME, a class can totally replace a classes primary function in an MMO AND add additional utility it needs to be resolved.
I mean imagine if CW's could heal as well as clerics, AND CC?
Imagine if Rogues could CC like CW AND have amazing burst and single target suistained DPS?
This shield stacking of clerics needs to be resolved ASAP in my mind as it makes GF's, DPS or Def build, optional at best irelevant at worst.
0
maiku217Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Then get to 15k GS, never been kicked in a pug queue.
Then get to 15k GS, never been kicked in a pug queue.
It is not even about wether or not you get kicked out of a PuG. It is a fundamental replacement of a character in group play. There is MAYBE ONE epic dungeon (Mad Dragon T1) where it is more beneficial to bring a GF than a second healer. Other than that there is NO instance that a second DC stacking Armor is not more useful than a GF. NONE.
This of course has led to a HUGE restructuring of the preferred group make-up and it is a RARITY that a group is looking for a GF, and a STANDARD that they are looking for a second DC.
Hell, even Castle Never is a no go for GF's. The gear I have from there is all given to me by the clerics and CW's that run it.
Regarding party kick, it has happened to me ONCE, before I finished even loading lol, which is saying a lot because I load a zone in 10-15 seconds tops.
0
aveanMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
il state, GFs gain GS at a higher ratio than other classes, I know full Greens can hit 9k, rather have you post your items if your claim is your geared well enough to be where you are.
0
awwyissmfbcMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
DPS GFs are amazing, I don't know why people wouldn't want a dps gf in their group. A dps gf can beat any other class. I suppose people just assume there's still some GFs that think tanking in this game is viable and haven't spec'ed dps yet.
This. The only people that beat me in damage are TRs that severely outgear me. CWs lag behind me, and well, GWFs are quite a ways down there. If I ever get my timeless set, I don't see anyone ever outdpsing me. That being said, I can't pug to save my life. No one wants me, no matter how much damage I do. The only way for me to get groups is to ask in Gchat. /shrug
Edit: I don't know why you'd want to queue for T1s and T2s anyways. The system is broken and can match you up with 4 other dps, and it's usually filled with people needing on everything so they can make some AD.
Guys suggesting "Lol reroll" doesn't help the situation. It's an obvious problem, that the game doesn't require those classes simply because of their inferiority and that they have no place because of it.
It saddens me to see the divide. I hope PW have a fix for it soon!
Profile name / Ingame handle: @FearGXxD
Shard: Mindflayer
Characters: Grim, Rune, Holy, Ruin - If the name isn't the @FearGXxD handle, it's not me!
DPS GFs are amazing, I don't know why people wouldn't want a dps gf in their group. A dps gf can beat any other class. I suppose people just assume there's still some GFs that think tanking in this game is viable and haven't spec'ed dps yet.
GWFs are also great in dungeons. I've done plenty of dungeons where the gwf was taking all bosses and still topping the dps charts.
Having 2 clerics are easy mode indeed, but not necessarily a must. I've cleared every single T2 and CN with just 1 cleric, 1 dps gf, 2 cws and a rogue, and the dps gf sometimes gets replaced with a gwf.
Of course, if someone actually goes tanking spec in a GF, obviously that person needs to go because in this game there's no such need or desire for a tanking gf, only dps.
Thats me so far, tanking bosses and top 3 dps. Not sure what people talking about. Obviously the people you're grouping with aren't running with proper builds and mmo combat skills.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Loki < The Illuminati > 60 - Control Wizard
Protocol 60 - Great Weapon Fighter
Thats me so far, tanking bosses and top 3 dps. Not sure what people talking about. Obviously the people you're grouping with aren't running with proper builds and mmo combat skills.
There is so sort of mentality in pugs that any group without 2 TR, 2 CW, 1 DC is destined to fail with wipes and a waste of time. People these days have no patience and want epics straight away, it's quite depressing.
Then they come here and complain there is nothing to do, how ironic.
Profile name / Ingame handle: @FearGXxD
Shard: Mindflayer
Characters: Grim, Rune, Holy, Ruin - If the name isn't the @FearGXxD handle, it's not me!
There is so sort of mentality in pugs that any group without 2 TR, 2 CW, 1 DC is destined to fail with wipes and a waste of time. People these days have no patience and want epics straight away, it's quite depressing.
Then they come here and complain there is nothing to do, how ironic.
playing with a GF or GFW is a disadvantage in most dungeons. The only thing it helps to have 1 of each in a party is the fact you will win your rolls. But in pugs that means you have to hope nobody else rolls for your class items. Which is pretty common. The reason people want epics is so they can actually play all of the content because without a full epic suit you're not getting in...
A GF playing friend of mine never gets kicked out of groups because of his class. I guess the people who don't want a Fighter in their group need to l2p if they can't clear dungeons with one. This friend of mine certainly doesn't gimp the group, as he knows what he is doing and holds aggro pretty well.
And if it's not because of l2p issues, but because you want an "optimal" group without a Fighter, just uninstall, because you're a HAMSTER.
Haven't experienced a single "because of class or gear" party kick towards me on anyone in my group yet. And I've ran quite a lot of dungeons, all tiers.
You can clear any current dungeon with a party of one class each. l2p if you can't.
Guys suggesting "Lol reroll" doesn't help the situation. It's an obvious problem, that the game doesn't require those classes simply because of their inferiority and that they have no place because of it.
The only class that is really required for anything is the cleric. There are other setups that make it easier and maybe faster (though I refer to the posts that explain how awesome two GFs in a group can be), but strictly required is only the cleric, and quite a bit can be done without a cleric, too.
The problem is that people don't want to try, don't want to attempt new stuff, and just want to get their loot fast with as little effort as possible. During headstart, people in dungeons talked. No one talks now. There would, no question, be less kicking if clerics weren't so "rare". I tried to do a random T2 yesterday, but I gave up after five tries. No clerics and people don't want to try.
So, I feel that if there were more clerics, there would be fewer of these other issues. The reason why there are not enough clerics in random dungeons is because random groups often play poorly. People don't move out of stuff, don't use potions, whine about healing (or no healing), don't make an effort to help the cleric. In addition, healing aggro is completely insane, so it is not even fun to play as a cleric when your potion use is twice that of everyone else, and you heal yourself worse than anyone else.
Leveling a cleric is also not exactly that enjoyable. I am currently leveling one up, and it's tedious. There are stretches where it's nice and smooth, and then it takes ages to kill a mob. Strong contrast to my two CWs (which are also hybrids and not strikers), with whom leveling is actually FUN. I level my cleric more in PvP now because it's more varied, but that means no gear (except the greens or blues here and there). No low level PvP sets at all. (I just spend AD in the AH, and I have account-wide mounts so I don't need to farm 5G, but that is not really viable for everyone.)
Fixing healing aggro and removing Righteousness would go a long way to making random queues faster and less kick-infested. I'm pretty sure there are many more cases where people get kicked because they are not a cleric than people who get kicked because they are class X or Y.
Kids these days. Why even bother playing if all you want is to get gear with as little effort and challenge as possible.
^^^THIS x 1,000,000,000^^^
People are in such a rush to get max level and get the top tier stuff ingame... So that they can sit in town toting this gear so that the new players can look at them in awe. Once they get bored/ people stop noticing they jump on the forums and complain that there is not enough end game content. People's lack of patience is also 1 of the reasons why RMT is so successful...
I do kinda wish that Developers took the time to take a look at how games pre-WoW were successful, and what they have that has made people still play them to this day.
I do kinda wish that Developers took the time to take a look at how games pre-WoW were successful, and what they have that has made people still play them to this day.
By today's commercial standards, the pre-WoW MMOs were not all that successful, sadly. I played UO in 1997 and even 16 years later I miss it dearly, but MMOs were a niche genre until WoW made it mainstream. UO, EQ, DAoC, they all appealed only to a relatively small audience. (There were other reasons too, like much fewer folks having affordable online access yet, or access at all -- my first month in UO cost me about $1000 in phone bills. )
I probably have the same idea of what makes games fun as you do, but I am really not sure that we are a commercially relevant group. Every MMO since WoW seems to have failed commercially, though most tried to copy WoW and failed to capture what makes WoW successful (foolish stuff like launching TOR and Rift without a LFG tool).
Kids these days. Why even bother playing if all you want is to get gear with as little effort and challenge as possible.
It has been like that ever since WoW. So it's not really "kids" or "these days" but rather the larger demographic of MMO gamers that simply didn't exist pre-WoW. But regardless of the reasons it is a reality that isn't going to change anytime soon. The only solution is to build a game to fit that reality.
Why this doesn't happen in WoW is because tanks are absolutely required in raids, and while not necessarily required for 5man dungeons, they are still forced in by the queue system. I'm afraid both or either of those solutions will be needed here too because people for sure won't change.
So what are random groups and queues implemented for ? Dungeons should be designed in such a way, so the party without a tank (GF) can't complete them.
If dungeons required a GF, then waiting times would catastrophic. We've already seen that in WoW. When Catacylsm came out, I would wait 2-3 hours to get my daily done because there were not enough tank. It got better when the started to bribe tanks with extra rewards and made tanking super, super easy so that even my cat could tank a heroic dungeon (threat increase by 500%). This wasn't good for the game and it also led to tanks acting like they are gods in groups. (The bribes made me get a tank off spec even though I didn't really want to play as a tank, so I did it for the rewards but not for the fun -- not good game design.)
The GFs I see and play with do well, but they are all dps/hybrid GFs, not typical tanks. It's good that no tank is required. The problem is the perception that people have (and that you GFs are partly responsible for because you keep talking how your class is broken) and that many GFs try to play like WoW tanks. Not working that way here. I'm sure there is room for fixes, but adding another bottleneck to random queues and groups is not the way to go, in my opinion.
It has been like that ever since WoW. So it's not really "kids" or "these days" but rather the larger demographic of MMO gamers that simply didn't exist pre-WoW. But regardless of the reasons it is a reality that isn't going to change anytime soon. The only solution is to build a game to fit that reality.
It's kids these days. I know zero mature players aged older than 23 who just want to get their epics easy without a challenge, with as little effort as possible. And I know for a fact that for every mature player that does, there's 500 21st century spoiled brats that want the same thing.
Good thing that some studios have the courage to still make games that quickly and ruthlessly eliminate these butterfaced popcorn munchers from the community by being hard in difficulty. I know atleast 2 F2P titles that do this, but won't mention them here ( because ofcourse, a pseudointellectual previously mentioned butterfaced popcorn muncher would try and counterargument. )
By today's commercial standards, the pre-WoW MMOs were not all that successful, sadly. I played UO in 1997 and even 16 years later I miss it dearly, but MMOs were a niche genre until WoW made it mainstream. UO, EQ, DAoC, they all appealed only to a relatively small audience. (There were other reasons too, like much fewer folks having affordable online access yet, or access at all -- my first month in UO cost me about $1000 in phone bills. )
I probably have the same idea of what makes games fun as you do, but I am really not sure that we are a commercially relevant group. Every MMO since WoW seems to have failed commercially, though most tried to copy WoW and failed to capture what makes WoW successful (foolish stuff like launching TOR and Rift without a LFG tool).
Yeah I can agree with that, I just feel that the WoW model is not very efficient.
By all means, I'm not saying that it isn't a good game, the success of WoW pretty much blows that opinion out of the water.
The problem I find (and the reason that I didn't ever get into WoW heavily), is that leveling was way, WAY too easy and the design of the game is too inefficient.
For example, each Zone has a specific level range, once you've gone past that, then you're onto the next zone never to return again (unless you're gather resources or p.leveling someone). Why not have 2 tiers of mobs in a zone (e.g. 1-10 then 30-40) along with endgame bosses that Spawn in these Zones. In my opinion, this is much more efficient and gives a Developer much more time to Develop other aspects of the Game. MMOs nowadays also seem to avoid evolution (e.g. Ragnarok Online's Rebirth Function), which I reckon would increase the longevity of a game.
Perhaps I'm just behind the times, I would LOVE to play a game that I can foresee myself playing 12 months after I start. However at present, that just doesn't seem to be the case.
teepussiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Must agree with OP getting same impression pretty much as GWF player. Turned now more to alts or other things to do. Then again as having GF alt and done dungeon at least that class has clear role and it can do dmg, so its not just useless meatball. As GWF on T2 dungeons taking you is like choosing to go with handicap. I mean sure GWF can dish aoe dmg, but most fight mechanics seem to spawn endless adds that in the long run it doesnt matter how much you kill, it comes more down to needing control and CW is perfect for that. Then if you go focus single target boss or something rogues laugh at you. Overall GF should have its spot if theres enough auto attacks coming from bosses that wont allow you to just beat them with good foot play.
Overall damage for GF and GWF is already done since people assume automatic they dont need them. Pug groups might not mind, but usually chances of slaying last boss of instance with them is low.
Every random queue I got into this morning, as soon as I got into the dungeon I suddenly found myself kicked immediately without warning.
I also now only see LF 1 more cleric or LF 2 clerics or LF 2 CW or 1 more CW or TR in zone chat.
So, I'd say that it is safe to say that the community's impressions of what makes a successful dungeon are now fully entrenched in the NO GF/NO GWF mentality.
But hey, maybe there's some cool stuff in the cash shop???
Castle Neverwinter currently cannot be done with a GWF and/or GF - it is a wasted spot.
If dungeons required a GF, then waiting times would catastrophic. We've already seen that in WoW. When Catacylsm came out, I would wait 2-3 hours to get my daily done because there were not enough tank. It got better when the started to bribe tanks with extra rewards and made tanking super, super easy so that even my cat could tank a heroic dungeon (threat increase by 500%). This wasn't good for the game and it also led to tanks acting like they are gods in groups. (The bribes made me get a tank off spec even though I didn't really want to play as a tank, so I did it for the rewards but not for the fun -- not good game design.)
The GFs I see and play with do well, but they are all dps/hybrid GFs, not typical tanks. It's good that no tank is required. The problem is the perception that people have (and that you GFs are partly responsible for because you keep talking how your class is broken) and that many GFs try to play like WoW tanks. Not working that way here. I'm sure there is room for fixes, but adding another bottleneck to random queues and groups is not the way to go, in my opinion.
If no tank is required to complete epic dungeons, then no healer should be required either. I'd say both can "bottleneck" the random queues. However, queue time shouldn't be anywhere near a priority as overall class balance. Someone new to the game shouldn't be rolling a GF or GWF today, only to find out how completely irrelevant their class is at level 60. A tank/heal/dps balance within a party is almost a must to establish an interesting level of strategy in end game content in an MMO.
0
baaddareMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
DPS GFs are amazing, I don't know why people wouldn't want a dps gf in their group. A dps gf can beat any other class. I suppose people just assume there's still some GFs that think tanking in this game is viable and haven't spec'ed dps yet.
GWFs are also great in dungeons. I've done plenty of dungeons where the gwf was taking all bosses and still topping the dps charts.
T
Having 2 clerics are easy mode indeed, but not necessarily a must. I've cleared every single T2 and CN with just 1 cleric, 1 dps gf, 2 cws and a rogue, and the dps gf sometimes gets replaced with a gwf.
Of course, if someone actually goes tanking spec in a GF, obviously that person needs to go because in this game there's no such need or desire for a tanking gf, only dps.
Tanking is viable. Did a run with a Tank actually speced for argo and it was a great run. No one died bosses were alot less stress full my TR could all out dps and not spend half the fight dodging or running while waiting for cd on my heal pots. Our one healer was enough to keep everyone up. So much more fun than with GF speced for dps.
"Magic is impressive, but now Minsc leads. SWORDS FOR EVERYONE!!!"
0
baaddareMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Comments
The best group for most dungeons are 2 clerics, 1 GF, 1 CW and a rogue. Clerics and CWs deal with adds, throw them into nothingness, while the GF holds the boss and the rogue deals with it. Two rogues might be quicker but forcing the rogue to dodge also takes a lot of potions and time, and the GF can do that better.
It's not because you don't like the game mechanics that something is broken. It's fine. People who know how to play will value skilled and tanky GFs. If random groups don't though, i don't mind. Random groups shouldn't be considered as the best example of success, since most of them fail when they don't exploit in T2s.
Include Ability Score Rolling When Respec-ing (Click and Comment to Show Support)
There are multiple issues with GF's one is that the DPS GF is far far far superior at threat gen, and tam contribution than a defensive guardian.
Having said that, I feel on a long enough time line that will get resolved.
Now this two cleric situation with the armor stacking buff needs to be fixed like 3 weeks ago. ANYTIME, a class can totally replace a classes primary function in an MMO AND add additional utility it needs to be resolved.
I mean imagine if CW's could heal as well as clerics, AND CC?
Imagine if Rogues could CC like CW AND have amazing burst and single target suistained DPS?
This shield stacking of clerics needs to be resolved ASAP in my mind as it makes GF's, DPS or Def build, optional at best irelevant at worst.
It is not even about wether or not you get kicked out of a PuG. It is a fundamental replacement of a character in group play. There is MAYBE ONE epic dungeon (Mad Dragon T1) where it is more beneficial to bring a GF than a second healer. Other than that there is NO instance that a second DC stacking Armor is not more useful than a GF. NONE.
This of course has led to a HUGE restructuring of the preferred group make-up and it is a RARITY that a group is looking for a GF, and a STANDARD that they are looking for a second DC.
Hell, even Castle Never is a no go for GF's. The gear I have from there is all given to me by the clerics and CW's that run it.
Regarding party kick, it has happened to me ONCE, before I finished even loading lol, which is saying a lot because I load a zone in 10-15 seconds tops.
This. The only people that beat me in damage are TRs that severely outgear me. CWs lag behind me, and well, GWFs are quite a ways down there. If I ever get my timeless set, I don't see anyone ever outdpsing me. That being said, I can't pug to save my life. No one wants me, no matter how much damage I do. The only way for me to get groups is to ask in Gchat. /shrug
Edit: I don't know why you'd want to queue for T1s and T2s anyways. The system is broken and can match you up with 4 other dps, and it's usually filled with people needing on everything so they can make some AD.
It saddens me to see the divide. I hope PW have a fix for it soon!
Shard: Mindflayer
Characters: Grim, Rune, Holy, Ruin - If the name isn't the @FearGXxD handle, it's not me!
Thats me so far, tanking bosses and top 3 dps. Not sure what people talking about. Obviously the people you're grouping with aren't running with proper builds and mmo combat skills.
Loki < The Illuminati > 60 - Control Wizard
Protocol 60 - Great Weapon Fighter
There is so sort of mentality in pugs that any group without 2 TR, 2 CW, 1 DC is destined to fail with wipes and a waste of time. People these days have no patience and want epics straight away, it's quite depressing.
Then they come here and complain there is nothing to do, how ironic.
Shard: Mindflayer
Characters: Grim, Rune, Holy, Ruin - If the name isn't the @FearGXxD handle, it's not me!
playing with a GF or GFW is a disadvantage in most dungeons. The only thing it helps to have 1 of each in a party is the fact you will win your rolls. But in pugs that means you have to hope nobody else rolls for your class items. Which is pretty common. The reason people want epics is so they can actually play all of the content because without a full epic suit you're not getting in...
And if it's not because of l2p issues, but because you want an "optimal" group without a Fighter, just uninstall, because you're a HAMSTER.
Haven't experienced a single "because of class or gear" party kick towards me on anyone in my group yet. And I've ran quite a lot of dungeons, all tiers.
You can clear any current dungeon with a party of one class each. l2p if you can't.
The only class that is really required for anything is the cleric. There are other setups that make it easier and maybe faster (though I refer to the posts that explain how awesome two GFs in a group can be), but strictly required is only the cleric, and quite a bit can be done without a cleric, too.
The problem is that people don't want to try, don't want to attempt new stuff, and just want to get their loot fast with as little effort as possible. During headstart, people in dungeons talked. No one talks now. There would, no question, be less kicking if clerics weren't so "rare". I tried to do a random T2 yesterday, but I gave up after five tries. No clerics and people don't want to try.
So, I feel that if there were more clerics, there would be fewer of these other issues. The reason why there are not enough clerics in random dungeons is because random groups often play poorly. People don't move out of stuff, don't use potions, whine about healing (or no healing), don't make an effort to help the cleric. In addition, healing aggro is completely insane, so it is not even fun to play as a cleric when your potion use is twice that of everyone else, and you heal yourself worse than anyone else.
Leveling a cleric is also not exactly that enjoyable. I am currently leveling one up, and it's tedious. There are stretches where it's nice and smooth, and then it takes ages to kill a mob. Strong contrast to my two CWs (which are also hybrids and not strikers), with whom leveling is actually FUN. I level my cleric more in PvP now because it's more varied, but that means no gear (except the greens or blues here and there). No low level PvP sets at all. (I just spend AD in the AH, and I have account-wide mounts so I don't need to farm 5G, but that is not really viable for everyone.)
Fixing healing aggro and removing Righteousness would go a long way to making random queues faster and less kick-infested. I'm pretty sure there are many more cases where people get kicked because they are not a cleric than people who get kicked because they are class X or Y.
^^^THIS x 1,000,000,000^^^
People are in such a rush to get max level and get the top tier stuff ingame... So that they can sit in town toting this gear so that the new players can look at them in awe. Once they get bored/ people stop noticing they jump on the forums and complain that there is not enough end game content. People's lack of patience is also 1 of the reasons why RMT is so successful...
I do kinda wish that Developers took the time to take a look at how games pre-WoW were successful, and what they have that has made people still play them to this day.
By today's commercial standards, the pre-WoW MMOs were not all that successful, sadly. I played UO in 1997 and even 16 years later I miss it dearly, but MMOs were a niche genre until WoW made it mainstream. UO, EQ, DAoC, they all appealed only to a relatively small audience. (There were other reasons too, like much fewer folks having affordable online access yet, or access at all -- my first month in UO cost me about $1000 in phone bills.
I probably have the same idea of what makes games fun as you do, but I am really not sure that we are a commercially relevant group. Every MMO since WoW seems to have failed commercially, though most tried to copy WoW and failed to capture what makes WoW successful (foolish stuff like launching TOR and Rift without a LFG tool).
Ya everyone does, not sure why they haven't rerolled yet anyways.
It has been like that ever since WoW. So it's not really "kids" or "these days" but rather the larger demographic of MMO gamers that simply didn't exist pre-WoW. But regardless of the reasons it is a reality that isn't going to change anytime soon. The only solution is to build a game to fit that reality.
Why this doesn't happen in WoW is because tanks are absolutely required in raids, and while not necessarily required for 5man dungeons, they are still forced in by the queue system. I'm afraid both or either of those solutions will be needed here too because people for sure won't change.
This post is very true
The GFs I see and play with do well, but they are all dps/hybrid GFs, not typical tanks. It's good that no tank is required. The problem is the perception that people have (and that you GFs are partly responsible for because you keep talking how your class is broken) and that many GFs try to play like WoW tanks. Not working that way here. I'm sure there is room for fixes, but adding another bottleneck to random queues and groups is not the way to go, in my opinion.
It's kids these days. I know zero mature players aged older than 23 who just want to get their epics easy without a challenge, with as little effort as possible. And I know for a fact that for every mature player that does, there's 500 21st century spoiled brats that want the same thing.
Good thing that some studios have the courage to still make games that quickly and ruthlessly eliminate these butterfaced popcorn munchers from the community by being hard in difficulty. I know atleast 2 F2P titles that do this, but won't mention them here ( because ofcourse, a pseudointellectual previously mentioned butterfaced popcorn muncher would try and counterargument. )
Yeah I can agree with that, I just feel that the WoW model is not very efficient.
By all means, I'm not saying that it isn't a good game, the success of WoW pretty much blows that opinion out of the water.
The problem I find (and the reason that I didn't ever get into WoW heavily), is that leveling was way, WAY too easy and the design of the game is too inefficient.
For example, each Zone has a specific level range, once you've gone past that, then you're onto the next zone never to return again (unless you're gather resources or p.leveling someone). Why not have 2 tiers of mobs in a zone (e.g. 1-10 then 30-40) along with endgame bosses that Spawn in these Zones. In my opinion, this is much more efficient and gives a Developer much more time to Develop other aspects of the Game. MMOs nowadays also seem to avoid evolution (e.g. Ragnarok Online's Rebirth Function), which I reckon would increase the longevity of a game.
Perhaps I'm just behind the times, I would LOVE to play a game that I can foresee myself playing 12 months after I start. However at present, that just doesn't seem to be the case.
Overall damage for GF and GWF is already done since people assume automatic they dont need them. Pug groups might not mind, but usually chances of slaying last boss of instance with them is low.
Castle Neverwinter currently cannot be done with a GWF and/or GF - it is a wasted spot.
If no tank is required to complete epic dungeons, then no healer should be required either. I'd say both can "bottleneck" the random queues. However, queue time shouldn't be anywhere near a priority as overall class balance. Someone new to the game shouldn't be rolling a GF or GWF today, only to find out how completely irrelevant their class is at level 60. A tank/heal/dps balance within a party is almost a must to establish an interesting level of strategy in end game content in an MMO.
Tanking is viable. Did a run with a Tank actually speced for argo and it was a great run. No one died bosses were alot less stress full my TR could all out dps and not spend half the fight dodging or running while waiting for cd on my heal pots. Our one healer was enough to keep everyone up. So much more fun than with GF speced for dps.
It would not be "gimping" it would be playing for fun with people you enjoy being with. Everyone, is not into meta gaming.