This game is broken atm, dropping everything into cliffs is a platformer not an MMO, or this is how Cryptic actually wants everyone to play this game :rolleyes:
Almost every pug I've grouped with on tier 2 dungeons play drop em off cliffs...
Basically TR for DPS, CW for CC, DC for Heals and buffs and GF/GWF for? I actually wanted to play these classes if not for this semi-usefulness end-game. Always see these classes get kicked at start, btw I play DC.
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dixa1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
Didn't you make a similar thread before and people suggested to you to build your own groups? I didn't check, so maybe that was someone else.
Of course people in random groups will always look for the easiest way to get what they want, and that is two clerics that stack AS. There were threads from TRs who also get kicked, and GFs. You don't really need anything other than Clerics and CWs, but that is where playing with friends and guildies comes into play. My main is a CW, but I rarely do random groups, and it's not because of the class. You get nicer experiences if you play with hand-picked folks.
do note that this kicking thing was also happening when the cw and gf exploits were going on.
maybe a new one has been found.
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calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This game is broken atm, dropping everything into cliffs is a platformer not an MMO, or this is how Cryptic actually wants everyone to play this game :rolleyes:
Easily killable minions are part of 4E though. It just shouldn't require cliffs and knockbacks to do it.
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dixa1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
Running 2 Clerics and then the rest DPS is the most optimal way to do dungeons. With two Clerics, you can all stack up in the blue circles and LOL as you never go below 90% health. So while normal groups have to do bosses the correct way by dodging out of **** or kill adds. A group with 2 clerics, you can just stand in one spot and focus the boss then deal with adds at the end.
blue circles dont make you immune adn many red circles placed in those stacked blue circles can still kill you. there is also a lot of knockback's in dungeons punting you out of them.
i dont see how cryptic can even fix this without a total revamp of several classes and all dungeon encounters, including random trash packs before bosses. they have however proven in the past that they are not willing to do such a thing. this is just star trek online all over again - engineer and science need not apply, only bring tac captains for the fastest and easiest runs.
It was bound to happen, hopefully they won't go the way of GW2 and let a whole year roll by without touching a single bug for the weaker classes. I don't think they are as ADHD when it comes to patches like GW2 devs seem to be tho.
So what are random groups and queues implemented for ? Dungeons should be designed in such a way, so the party without a tank (GF) can't complete them.
The person he's talking about was complaining that as an over 9K GS TR hasn't been able to do "anything" for seven days due to being kicked all the time and even his guild not wanting him or a rogue for any dungeon runs. He kept saying he was always dropped from LFG for whatever reason.
I've completed several epics without a healer or tank, they are doable with pretty much any set up, and yes, four CWs and a rogue can finish them, as i was in a group that did it, and we didn't use any exploits or cheesy boss tactics. It's players who are lazy and refuse to try new things, use smart tactics, etc.
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radiodreadMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited May 2013
The pug community will always gravitate towards whatever takes the least amount of effort. This does not mean that its the only way to do things. My group of friends that I run with use 1 GF, 1 Cleric, 1 CW, and 2 TR. We have killed everything except the final boss of Castle Never, but haven't really put any attempts into him yet. Our group is very unconventional but we get things done just fine.
Like others have said, form your own groups. You get to weed out the idiots that way anyways.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited May 2013
Don't worry, last week it was GWF that was "useless" and next week it will be TR. And you know what? Nothing will have actually changed between any of the classes.
Every random queue I got into this morning, as soon as I got into the dungeon I suddenly found myself kicked immediately without warning.
I also now only see LF 1 more cleric or LF 2 clerics or LF 2 CW or 1 more CW or TR in zone chat.
So, I'd say that it is safe to say that the community's impressions of what makes a successful dungeon are now fully entrenched in the NO GF/NO GWF mentality.
But hey, maybe there's some cool stuff in the cash shop???
Sucks to be you, my main is a GWF. Try one of those, then we can talk.
Don't worry, last week it was GWF that was "useless" and next week it will be TR. And you know what? Nothing will have actually changed between any of the classes.
actually. GWF and GF are both useless amnd everyones been saying the same thing for weeks for both.
But hey, live in your magical world where dps matters at all.
Don't worry, last week it was GWF that was "useless" and next week it will be TR. And you know what? Nothing will have actually changed between any of the classes.
Except that GWF was nerfed to oblivion after closed beta? Lol clueless troll.
bigfishcjpMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Agreed,
So here's a fix for both classes. Basically create is so cleric circles stack at only 25% effectiveness on 2nd stack. Make it so Guardians with certain passive talents loaded create a passive group dmg reduction buff that was 75% of what a 2nd stack of the cleric circle does. Voila!
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bigfishcjpMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
not delete option so stupid
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bigfishcjpMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Running 2 Clerics and then the rest DPS is the most optimal way to do dungeons. With two Clerics, you can all stack up in the blue circles and LOL as you never go below 90% health. So while normal groups have to do bosses the correct way by dodging out of **** or kill adds. A group with 2 clerics, you can just stand in one spot and focus the boss then deal with adds at the end.
Agreed,
So here's a fix for both classes. Basically create is so cleric circles stack at only 25% effectiveness on 2nd stack. Make it so Guardians with certain passive talents loaded create a passive group dmg reduction buff that was 75% of what a 2nd stack of the cleric circle does. Voila!
Every random queue I got into this morning, as soon as I got into the dungeon I suddenly found myself kicked immediately without warning.
I also now only see LF 1 more cleric or LF 2 clerics or LF 2 CW or 1 more CW or TR in zone chat.
So, I'd say that it is safe to say that the community's impressions of what makes a successful dungeon are now fully entrenched in the NO GF/NO GWF mentality.
But hey, maybe there's some cool stuff in the cash shop???
<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> are everywhere and in huge quantities...what's new?
People have no skill neither gear and think they're entitled to progress as much as anyone with both so when they can't do it and fail, they'll take the rote with least resist, in this case the 2 cleric cheese, exploits, bugs and easier tactics like pulling bosses out of their rooms.
I've been running with GFs since I first hit 60 3 days after game release and I'd even wager they're almost OP. Yes, I said it. The GFs I run with are always very well place in damage (obviously behind, but like 30ish% behind which is pretty good imo) they keep some adds on them when it's critical, like peeling off cleric and they know where to move what and at what pace.
It's simply a matter that most people in the game lack the requirements to do what they're currently doing with the already said bugs, exploits, cheeses and alike.
<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> are everywhere and in huge quantities...what's new?
People have no skill neither gear and think they're entitled to progress as much as anyone with both so when they can't do it and fail, they'll take the rote with least resist, in this case the 2 cleric cheese, exploits, bugs and easier tactics like pulling bosses out of their rooms.
I've been running with GFs since I first hit 60 3 days after game release and I'd even wager they're almost OP. Yes, I said it. The GFs I run with are always very well place in damage (obviously behind, but like 30ish% behind which is pretty good imo) they keep some adds on them when it's critical, like peeling off cleric and they know where to move what and at what pace.
It's simply a matter that most people in the game lack the requirements to do what they're currently doing with the already said bugs, exploits, cheeses and alike.
Or thats its faster to just take advantage of stupid design ideas and throw mobs off the cliff.
This is not a mere balance issue that can be solved by tweaking some numbers. When the fighter types (especially Guardian) are more of a hindrance to epic dungeons than a help, the combat mechanics are fundamentally broken. Period.
Unfortunately my experience with Cryptic games tells me this won't change anytime soon; possibly never. CC and dps are always king in every Cryptic game I can recall playing. These wrong-headed ideas about how combat should work seem to be baked into the fabric of the company's design philosophy. One can only assume that the person responsible for these bad decisions has managed to stick around despite the shifts and personnel changes that come with time and all the changes in Cryptic ownership. Or perhaps that legacy was passed down to his or her minions.
In any case, combat simply doesn't work properly and probably never will. If you want happiness in this game your safest bet is to roll CC or pure DPS. In the meantime, spec your tank as if it were a dps class and hope that you have time to type "Wait, I'm DPS!" before you get kicked from groups.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited May 2013
The amount of people who think GF are useless because they can't "cheese" their way through epic dungeons is ridiculous. You guys really need to stop believing everything you read on the interwebs.
It's true, GF requires more than just spamming your at wills on the nearest target. Rogue and CW are powerful enough and easy enough to play that they'll never be considered "broken" by the people who want to faceroll every encounter, and with DC spells stacking it turns every encounter into easy mode. But GF and GWF are just fine in end-game, balanced groups complete e-never every day.
Not even mentioning 2Gf is a viable strat, 2 GF giving constant 100%+ APgen Bonuses from Into the Fray, giving your cleric 366% AP gen so they can stack 3 or 4 Hallowed grounds at the same time while doing Astral Shield, combined with both GF doing Knights valor for -50% dmg for the whole party (including each other), as well as the movespeed and temp HP from Into the Fray. With Action Surge or Taunt in the last slot depending on what you want. And you can spam Dailies to apply stacks of your weapon enchant (Hopefully Plaguefire) to EVERY SINGLE ADD at once if the cleric is with you, While also applying it on taunt and cleave. But personally because both GF's Villain's Menace stacks with each other, increases your DPS and damage mitigation and damages nearby enemies, that's usually the daily I'm spamming, but with 2 ItF running, it's easy to have both your dailies up at the same time.
Dual GF cheese is far more effective than dual DC cheese.
I think the biggest problem that people have going into GF is that they fail to realize it is a support class.
L2Play noobs.
^^ Posts like this aren't helping. Nothing written there can alter the fact that epic dungeons can be cleared more efficiently without a tank. Even if someone has all the analytical capacity of a spoon and can't see that for themselves, all you have to do is stand around and read the chat as it whizzes by. Look at how people are forming their groups.
Given how the game works, it's a waste of effort to keep a tank upright when you can simply have more CC, dps, or secondary cleric functions in that spot.
This has always been a problem with Cryptic's approach to combat systems. Even back in CoH there was nothing you could do with a tank in your party that you couldn't do better with more CC and DPS. I remember quite clearly taking a group into a zone that conned way over our heads and farming it because we could CC the mobs to death.
Every time this comes up people rush in to say "get a guild", "group with friends", or some other incredibly obvious thing that they think is a great piece of wisdom. Of course there are workarounds for everything but a broken class balance is still a broken class balance.
Every random queue I got into this morning, as soon as I got into the dungeon I suddenly found myself kicked immediately without warning.
I also now only see LF 1 more cleric or LF 2 clerics or LF 2 CW or 1 more CW or TR in zone chat.
So, I'd say that it is safe to say that the community's impressions of what makes a successful dungeon are now fully entrenched in the NO GF/NO GWF mentality.
But hey, maybe there's some cool stuff in the cash shop???
Well to be honest, I would rather have two CW than two GWF in my groups for dungeons as well, you get faster kills, better control of the mobs and the group is more effective that way. At this point and I am being straight honest with you there is no need for a GF (at lower levels yeah) at higher levels and epics, because of the design of the fights.
You get Clerics to constantly heal off on CW and have them AoE the adds down while the Rogues beat the **** out of the boss. Occasionally you will get a GWF because you cannot find a second Rogue but again, dps is what's desired currently in "ALL" the dungeons until they find a real use for the classes they have in game now (not to mention fixing there aggro abilities).
I may not be considered by most the BEST PVP Warlock on the server but, I am the most HATED amongst them.
^^ Posts like this aren't helping. Nothing written there can alter the fact that epic dungeons can be cleared more efficiently without a tank.
Did you even READ what I just wrote? You honestly don't think 2 CW with +366% AP gen and 3x run speed standing in 4 hallowed grounds taking -50% damage 2x without having to stand in the glowwy blue circle are more effective than 3 CW running normally?
How does that address tanks? There are plenty of boss fights without convenient cliffs. Those boil down to "all the adds chase the cleric" while rogues kill the boss, easily avoiding his windup attacks. What's the tank's role in this?
As a healer, I hate seeing a GF in the group. Give me a second cleric or control wizard. Those two help keep the actual tank -- the cleric -- alive. Until and unless they unscrew healing threat, that's how things tend to work.
Every random queue I got into this morning, as soon as I got into the dungeon I suddenly found myself kicked immediately without warning.
I also now only see LF 1 more cleric or LF 2 clerics or LF 2 CW or 1 more CW or TR in zone chat.
So, I'd say that it is safe to say that the community's impressions of what makes a successful dungeon are now fully entrenched in the NO GF/NO GWF mentality.
But hey, maybe there's some cool stuff in the cash shop???
We can only blame the devs dude , I even left my guild becuz I felt like the fifth wheel on the wagon if you know what I mean
Solo queued today , got kicked around for 1 hour ( didn't even get a dungeon to start - if I get the lead the cleric just leaves lol ) and then I gave up and went back to RL :P
I like having a GF in my dungeon runs but i mostly ignore this possibility just because they are pretty rare and these princesses don't want to run anything but castle never. I also see a lot of groups looking for a GF in zone chat, because they know how useful they are, but most of the times they don't get any answer so they take a second cleric and don't try to get a GF anymore.
I never ask for a GWF because most of them are badly speced and don't do AOE but single target dps and rogues can do that better. Once i find a GWF who know how to play his class properly then i will call this day "miracle day" and will happily welcome him whenever i feel like doing some T2s.
Really Ranncore? I would have thought such terminology was below even you.
GF's are broken. Badly. Clerics hold threat 5x better than the tank class. That is broken. This needs to be fixed hard and fast. When people are bringing 2 healers into a group rather than a tank, there is a serious problem.
Comments
Almost every pug I've grouped with on tier 2 dungeons play drop em off cliffs...
Basically TR for DPS, CW for CC, DC for Heals and buffs and GF/GWF for? I actually wanted to play these classes if not for this semi-usefulness end-game. Always see these classes get kicked at start, btw I play DC.
do note that this kicking thing was also happening when the cw and gf exploits were going on.
maybe a new one has been found.
Easily killable minions are part of 4E though. It just shouldn't require cliffs and knockbacks to do it.
blue circles dont make you immune adn many red circles placed in those stacked blue circles can still kill you. there is also a lot of knockback's in dungeons punting you out of them.
i dont see how cryptic can even fix this without a total revamp of several classes and all dungeon encounters, including random trash packs before bosses. they have however proven in the past that they are not willing to do such a thing. this is just star trek online all over again - engineer and science need not apply, only bring tac captains for the fastest and easiest runs.
The person he's talking about was complaining that as an over 9K GS TR hasn't been able to do "anything" for seven days due to being kicked all the time and even his guild not wanting him or a rogue for any dungeon runs. He kept saying he was always dropped from LFG for whatever reason.
I've completed several epics without a healer or tank, they are doable with pretty much any set up, and yes, four CWs and a rogue can finish them, as i was in a group that did it, and we didn't use any exploits or cheesy boss tactics. It's players who are lazy and refuse to try new things, use smart tactics, etc.
Like others have said, form your own groups. You get to weed out the idiots that way anyways.
Sucks to be you, my main is a GWF. Try one of those, then we can talk.
actually. GWF and GF are both useless amnd everyones been saying the same thing for weeks for both.
But hey, live in your magical world where dps matters at all.
Except that GWF was nerfed to oblivion after closed beta? Lol clueless troll.
Completely wrong.
Sadly, completely right.
So here's a fix for both classes. Basically create is so cleric circles stack at only 25% effectiveness on 2nd stack. Make it so Guardians with certain passive talents loaded create a passive group dmg reduction buff that was 75% of what a 2nd stack of the cleric circle does. Voila!
Agreed,
So here's a fix for both classes. Basically create is so cleric circles stack at only 25% effectiveness on 2nd stack. Make it so Guardians with certain passive talents loaded create a passive group dmg reduction buff that was 75% of what a 2nd stack of the cleric circle does. Voila!
<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> are everywhere and in huge quantities...what's new?
People have no skill neither gear and think they're entitled to progress as much as anyone with both so when they can't do it and fail, they'll take the rote with least resist, in this case the 2 cleric cheese, exploits, bugs and easier tactics like pulling bosses out of their rooms.
I've been running with GFs since I first hit 60 3 days after game release and I'd even wager they're almost OP. Yes, I said it. The GFs I run with are always very well place in damage (obviously behind, but like 30ish% behind which is pretty good imo) they keep some adds on them when it's critical, like peeling off cleric and they know where to move what and at what pace.
It's simply a matter that most people in the game lack the requirements to do what they're currently doing with the already said bugs, exploits, cheeses and alike.
Or thats its faster to just take advantage of stupid design ideas and throw mobs off the cliff.
SO true, why pound on that OP Health bar when you can just throw them off :rolleyes:
Unfortunately my experience with Cryptic games tells me this won't change anytime soon; possibly never. CC and dps are always king in every Cryptic game I can recall playing. These wrong-headed ideas about how combat should work seem to be baked into the fabric of the company's design philosophy. One can only assume that the person responsible for these bad decisions has managed to stick around despite the shifts and personnel changes that come with time and all the changes in Cryptic ownership. Or perhaps that legacy was passed down to his or her minions.
In any case, combat simply doesn't work properly and probably never will. If you want happiness in this game your safest bet is to roll CC or pure DPS. In the meantime, spec your tank as if it were a dps class and hope that you have time to type "Wait, I'm DPS!" before you get kicked from groups.
It's true, GF requires more than just spamming your at wills on the nearest target. Rogue and CW are powerful enough and easy enough to play that they'll never be considered "broken" by the people who want to faceroll every encounter, and with DC spells stacking it turns every encounter into easy mode. But GF and GWF are just fine in end-game, balanced groups complete e-never every day.
Not even mentioning 2Gf is a viable strat, 2 GF giving constant 100%+ APgen Bonuses from Into the Fray, giving your cleric 366% AP gen so they can stack 3 or 4 Hallowed grounds at the same time while doing Astral Shield, combined with both GF doing Knights valor for -50% dmg for the whole party (including each other), as well as the movespeed and temp HP from Into the Fray. With Action Surge or Taunt in the last slot depending on what you want. And you can spam Dailies to apply stacks of your weapon enchant (Hopefully Plaguefire) to EVERY SINGLE ADD at once if the cleric is with you, While also applying it on taunt and cleave. But personally because both GF's Villain's Menace stacks with each other, increases your DPS and damage mitigation and damages nearby enemies, that's usually the daily I'm spamming, but with 2 ItF running, it's easy to have both your dailies up at the same time.
Dual GF cheese is far more effective than dual DC cheese.
I think the biggest problem that people have going into GF is that they fail to realize it is a support class.
L2Play noobs.
Given how the game works, it's a waste of effort to keep a tank upright when you can simply have more CC, dps, or secondary cleric functions in that spot.
This has always been a problem with Cryptic's approach to combat systems. Even back in CoH there was nothing you could do with a tank in your party that you couldn't do better with more CC and DPS. I remember quite clearly taking a group into a zone that conned way over our heads and farming it because we could CC the mobs to death.
Nothing has changed except the setting.
Well to be honest, I would rather have two CW than two GWF in my groups for dungeons as well, you get faster kills, better control of the mobs and the group is more effective that way. At this point and I am being straight honest with you there is no need for a GF (at lower levels yeah) at higher levels and epics, because of the design of the fights.
You get Clerics to constantly heal off on CW and have them AoE the adds down while the Rogues beat the **** out of the boss. Occasionally you will get a GWF because you cannot find a second Rogue but again, dps is what's desired currently in "ALL" the dungeons until they find a real use for the classes they have in game now (not to mention fixing there aggro abilities).
-Kymos
Your welcome.
Did you even READ what I just wrote? You honestly don't think 2 CW with +366% AP gen and 3x run speed standing in 4 hallowed grounds taking -50% damage 2x without having to stand in the glowwy blue circle are more effective than 3 CW running normally?
How does that address tanks? There are plenty of boss fights without convenient cliffs. Those boil down to "all the adds chase the cleric" while rogues kill the boss, easily avoiding his windup attacks. What's the tank's role in this?
As a healer, I hate seeing a GF in the group. Give me a second cleric or control wizard. Those two help keep the actual tank -- the cleric -- alive. Until and unless they unscrew healing threat, that's how things tend to work.
We can only blame the devs dude , I even left my guild becuz I felt like the fifth wheel on the wagon if you know what I mean
Solo queued today , got kicked around for 1 hour ( didn't even get a dungeon to start - if I get the lead the cleric just leaves lol ) and then I gave up and went back to RL :P
I never ask for a GWF because most of them are badly speced and don't do AOE but single target dps and rogues can do that better. Once i find a GWF who know how to play his class properly then i will call this day "miracle day" and will happily welcome him whenever i feel like doing some T2s.
Really Ranncore? I would have thought such terminology was below even you.
GF's are broken. Badly. Clerics hold threat 5x better than the tank class. That is broken. This needs to be fixed hard and fast. When people are bringing 2 healers into a group rather than a tank, there is a serious problem.