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Stacking Power, ARP or Recovery?
balthezore
Member Posts: 12 Arc User
It seems as many TR's around got different opinions when it comes stacking specific stats. But I like to keep it balanced. But lately few suggested that going for raw power is way to go over all other stats. So this left me confused. What I did so far I tried to keep all 3 or well 4 stats balanced. Such as reaching 50% crit, 4,000 ish power, 1,600 recovery and around 1k+ Arp, obviously 1k ARP would be too low since I think monster armor is around 22% if I'm not mistaken.
So, raw power or balanced?
ARP= Armor Pentration obviously.:eek:
So, raw power or balanced?
ARP= Armor Pentration obviously.:eek:
Post edited by balthezore on
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You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
I would stack arp to 22% as it seems to be the accepted mob mitigation amount currently, then go for crit. Wicked reminder and Plague fire seem to always give more damage on my bleed regardless of ARP amount so I believe that they both simply add a flat % damage taken debuff onto the mob.
Recovery is pretty poor as you can always cast a Wicked Reminder after every channel of Duelist's Flurry due to the time it takes to do the at-will. Add to that our feat which takes roughly 0,5s off all our encounters for every at-will channel, on top of the 4pc Master Duelist's set bonus which when fixed to work with Duelist's Flurry will take 3s off our encounters for every at-will channel. They all devalue % cooldown reduction quite heavily.
Recovery is still pretty decent due to the AP regen, though I do agree it is the worst stat next to power. Power is also 25:1. Also power adds that 25 power:1 weapon damage directly to your weapon damage. I am fairly positive that power is not used directly in any of the damage calculations.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
I was under the impression that ARP could not go into negative, however the other debuffs do. Anyone tested on which armor debuffs stack and which can go negative (if any?).
Damage reduction / Defense debuffs translate directly into damage buffs.
This is assuming that your armor penetration removes all of the enemy's damage reduction (defense+AC).
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
at 50.6% crit, removed a piece with 154 crit it reduced by 0.4%.
154 Power would give ~6 weapon damage right? so would you say 0.4% crit (lower as we go higher) better or 6 weapon damage better from that point?
Take a shot of the Krippsheet he posts and it's extremely valuable if you're able to figure out what's going on.
I'll quick explain some conclusions.
You have to remember that in a group setting you, and your party, will be debuffing your target. As such, being in a party greatly reduces it's value. (This does not mean don't use Ar.P)
All of that being said there are "soft cap" values that you want to hover around:
Recovery: 2300-2500
Crit: 1900
Ar.P: ~2200 Read the following posts about Ar.P.
Power: Linear buff to damage that will always provide a boost.
Of course all of this depends on what build you are using. If you're using a very Cooldown dependent build then Recovery becomes much more of a priority, or if you're using mainly At-Will abilities Crit and Power become more valuable.
In PvP I've yet to really test or see any information on the usefulness of Ar.P, but I would guess that it's value increases as the amount of debuffs a target will have decreases.
Cheers
P.S. -Use SolSol's Spreadsheet (In fact, just read the whole link in his Signature). It's really well done and much easier than taking a shot of the one in the video linked.
Conversely, math has been done in other threads to show that with 100% crit severity, 1% crit is roughly equal to 1% damage buff. And we actually can easily obtain much higher than 100% crit severity. Also that math does not factor in overrun critical, which essentially buffs the next attack after every crit by 21% if you have 100% crit severity (I did math in my guide to show this). If you have 50% crit that works out to each crit buying you 10.5% average bonus damage. You can then add extra value to each crit worth 10.5%/50% = 0.21% damage. Granted this bonus only comes from the executioner tree. So grand total we can estimate the value of 1% crit to be near 1.21% damage buff for an executioner rogue with 100% crit severity.
This is also not taking into account 25% stealth severity, or 15% deadly momentum severity. If we do that math crit's value raises to roughly equal:
Vorpal(25%) + DM(15%) + Stealth(25%)/2 + base = 128.5% average crit severity for a well played executioner rogue. I divided the stealth buff by 2 since 50% uptime on stealth playing an executioner rogue represents pretty solid play.
Crit severity damage bonus per point of crit is roughly CS%*crit chance%/crit chance, so 128.5%*50%/50 = 1.285%
1166.5 + 1166.5*128.5% = 2665.45 Normal Critical damage
Using my formula for calculating overrun critical damage:
(1166.5 + (1166.5*0.3*1.035)) + 128.5% = 3493.08 crit damage 50% of the time.
For a bonus of (3493.08 - 2665.45)/2665.45 = ~31% damage buff, 50% of the time. Which is roughly a flat 15.5% damage bonus. Therefore 1% crit gives roughly 15.5%/50% = 0.31% damage bonus due to overrun critical for a rogue with 128.5% crit severity.
Grand total we get 1.285%+0.31% = 1.595% damage bonus from 1% crit.
So with all this in mind 0.4% crit is worth about 1.21%*40% = 0.484% dps increase with 100% CS.
0.4% crit is worth about 1.595%*40% = 0.638% damage bonus with 128.5% CS.
I calculated earlier that the 154 power was about a 0.6% increase.
So it looks like crit scaling is better than power at your 50.6% unless I did some bad math somewhere, or missed some other buff to the value of crit. This is probably less true without a vorpal enchantment. So if we do some quick math to find how much power is a 1% dps buff, ~257 power = 1% dps buff. We already calculated that 1% crit is a 1.595% dps buff. So doing some more math, we can show that 0.63% crit is a 1% dps buff. So to find the point where crit is worth less than power, we check my spreadsheet to see where 0.63% crit costs more than 257 crit rating. This point is close to around 3500 rating.
So using this math you should prefer power to crit at about 3500 crit rating as an executioner rogue with a 25% vorpal enchantment. If you do not have a vorpal then you are looking at (using the same math) a number closer to the 2000 crit rating mark. As any other spec this number will be significantly lower. Basically crit rating scales like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Crit % is really good, but it is too expensive.
Unless someone has something to correct me here, I should probably update my guide to reflect this information. (Someone please find an error, I don't want to drop below 50% crit lol). Also, if anyone better at math than me can confirm that this is correct, then I can make a spreadsheet that at least can tell value of ARP, crit and power on your gear in terms of overall dps gained. I still do not know exactly how to value recovery.
My last addendum is that if using Duelist's flurry the value of crit versus bosses diminishes severely if you are playing it correctly, as you only need to make your bleed be a crit at the beginning to ensure it will crit the rest of the battle. The bleed is a solid 60% of your damage.....so you see where I am going with this. This may be fixed soon though as I believe the devs are aware of this bug. Read my guide for more info on this.
So to recap, you are aiming for these stat caps for pve damage:
ARP : ~2222 (22%)
Crit : ~2000 (+~750 per rank of vorpal), less if you are not an executioner rogue.
Recovery: Do not know how to value it versus power, 2900 begins the DR.
Power: ALL OF THE POWER.
In that order. The stat caps represent when power becomes stronger than the stat (recovery not included as I have no idea how to accurately calculate that).
Also, big thanks to ekphora for pointing out a fatal flaw in my math that was overvaluing power by a large amount.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
Kripp was wrong about Armor Pen though.
Armor Pen does not go below 0%, It is also calculated before debuffs. Example:
Combat Log: <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> (yyy)
Target has 20% Defense. You have 0 Armor Pen. Group Debuffed him by 40%, the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> will be 20% higher than the yyy.
Target has 20% Defense. You have 20% Armor Pen. Group Debuffed him by 40%, the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> will be 40% higher than the yyy.
Target has 20% Defense. You have 40% Armor Pen. Group Debuffed him by 40%, the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> will be 40% higher than the yyy. (You wasted 20% Armor Penetration, because it stops benefiting you at 0% defense, you can try that on dummies they have 0%).
So far testing showed mobs have 22% defense, so you want to take 22% Armor Pen maximum. The closer you are to 22% the more you benefit from others debuffs.
Correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying.
But do you mean:
When you attempt to do damage to a monster it checks against your Ar.P, then checks against the debuffs provided by your party (yourself included).
So in order to insure that you're always doing "true damage" you should have ~22% (~2200) Ar.P. However, that becomes a wasted stat when your party can provide debuffs equaling the given 22% defenses.
So in a party, depending on the ramp-time/up-time of debuffs, you could get away with nil Ar.P and presumably do more damage with that extra stat slot open on your gear.
OR
Because it checks against your Ar.P before it checks against debuffs you should keep ~22% Ar.P so that the debuffs apply after you've reduced their defenses to 0 gaining you, in your example, twice the damage.
Basically, defense reducing abilities can reduce below 0 but Ar.P cannot.
This part of the quote is what i am saying. You will always benefit the full amount from debuffs, but since debuffs can bring the number to negative, it is better if you bring the target defense as close as possible to 0% by Ar.P alone, anymore Ar.P will be wasted though because Ar.P stops at 0%.
That's bloody good to know.
Confused as well. It sounds like he is saying you can't go negative, but then his numbers go to -20%.
You cant go negative with Ar.P, but you can with Debuffs.
Ar.P is calculated before debuffs, therefore stop getting Ar.P once you reach close to 0% (Which is about 22% Ar.P). and then let debuffs take it to negative. This way you will go further into the negative than if you had no Ar.P at all.
I try to choose as much Armor Penetration and some crit here and there!
When it comes to Health and so on I try to choose Deflect and some recovery here and there.
After all of these my Rogue feels good and happy going in PvP and doing high amounts of Dmg.
I don't really know if it's good for everyone to choose like me.
I have a Hafling Rogue and some atributes from the character as it is.
Choosing your Abillities as best as you can and at the same time to fit your type of play seems good.
If it doesn't suit your play 'mode' than it will not be good for you.
Just think good of what you really want from your character and class first.
I choose to Build it for PvP and for Dungeons I mght change some things here and there but not much.
If it is to go in Dungeons I do it my way . Even at a 30+ level going to Throne of Idris is Like This Here !
Here is proof of what i am saying:
Target: Dummy (0% defense)
Debuff: 5 stacks Wicked Reminder (20% debuff)
20% into negative.
Target: Level 60 Elite Golem (22% defense)
My Ar.P: 20.1%
Expectation: Target will resist ~1.9% of my dmg.
(2401-2356)/2356 = 1.91% resisted, as expected.
This test will prove that debuffs will not cancel out Ar.P
Target: Level 60 Elite Golem (22% defense)
Debuff: 5 Stacks Wicked Reminder (20% debuff)
My Ar.P: 20.1%
Expectation: Target will resist ~1.9% of my dmg due to Ar.P, and then Debuff will drop it further by 20% so final result should be 18.1 into negative (1.9 - 20).
(2857-2419)/2419 = 18.1% into negative as expected.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
I didn't realize rogues had so much crit to waste.
How realistic is it to hit 2200 ArP from T2 PvE gear though? In Master Duelist(Unicorn head), T1 rings, T2 belt/neck, I can only hit 944, and that included using a lesser off-hand dagger(Netheril Blade vs. Thickgristle) for more ArP.
The defense debuffs that I know the value of are providing the exact same value as a damage buff.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
The only one I have the actual debuff value for is the 4 piece cleric high prophet set. It does 10% per stack in what it calls shredding armor. Each stack adds 10% damage.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR4KdpzlbqU
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
i dont know the value you should aim for exactly, especially since each class wears different types of armor so there'll be varying AC values for classes in both T1 and T2 gear. My guess is, to be able to mitigate all classes well, build towards mitigating dps on a GF in full T2 (defensive-enchants, feats etc.) gear. This might not be very wise in terms of other classes with lower AC scores as some of your Ar.P would be wasted (as explained earlier in this thread) but it should guarantee 0 DR is most cases. Just sample a few well geared GFs (or any other class you want to cap your Ar.P at) and determine your value from there, i'm not in-game atm so i cant give rough estimates what their DR would be neither do i have a lv60 GF to help ya out with how their feats help their DR.
Also i used GF as my example here as i believe them to have the highest DR of any other class. You can build your armor pen. to effectively mitagate any class of your choosing provided you dont mind losing a bit of dps on bulkier classes.