Wicked reminder is not armor penetration it is mitigation reduction. It is applied after armor penetration and can push mitigation into negatives.
I see, thank you,
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spiderbrigadeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 14Arc User
edited May 2013
I saw someone post this on the NW reddit, how does this relate to what's being discussed here regarding Armor Penetration?
Power is a flat 1 damage / 25 power, before skill damage coefficients. It is not a scaling stat.
All skills have coefficients, and their base damage is essentially negligible since they are all so low that they won't adversely affect scaling
Armor pen is "effective" because 3% armor pen is only +1% damage increase. As far as anyone can tell, "defense reduction" is a fake stat to hide flat damage gains behind, and works out to being identical to Crit in terms of damage gains and DRs assuming you don't have +% Crit damage.
It's one of the responses to this thread if you want to have a look.
As far as I can tell that guy is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Armor pen has returns based on the damage reduction of your target. It has insane scaling in damage increase when your opponent has a very high defense. If I attack for 1k damage vs 30% mitigation with 0 armor pen it will hit for 700. Thus adding Adding 10% of armor pen will make it hit for 800 since 10% of his defense is ignored. That 10% armor pen then equates to a 14.3% damage increase.
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omsgMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
Here is a recent video from a popular streamer breaking down all the offensive stats and showing they have diminishing returns. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR4KdpzlbqU
Here is a recent video from a popular streamer breaking down all the offensive stats and showing they have diminishing returns. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR4KdpzlbqU
According to the stream, he says Armor Pen will be diminished due to other players debuffs, but in this thread the verdict is that Armor Pen is calculated before debuffs, and debuffs go below 0%, so if you manage to get the mobs to 0% simply from Armor Pen, then you will benefit more from debuffs.
The video was testing just the diminishing returns as a curve, the other thread was specifically testing how mitigation reducing debuffs play with armor pen. There is a fair chance the thread was right over the video.
After doing my own testing I have the following results:
Faerie fire results 3% bonus damage on a target which has no damage resistance when having no armor penetration.
Faerie fire + 5 stacks of wicked reminder and no armor penetration results in 23.6% bonus damage.
Faerie fire + 5 stacks of wicked reminder + 16.3% armor penetration results in 23.6% bonus damage.
Based on these results I can say one of two things for certain:
1. Armor penetration is calculated first and you gain bonus damage based on some combination of the debuffs applied to the target.
or
2. Targets with 0 defense/damage resistance to start with do not properly model the hypothesis.
Chances are it's the first one. So stacking armor pen to reduce the target's resistance to 0 will provide the maximum benefit from party debuffs.
Faerie Fire reduces the target's defense by 6%. Not entirely sure why that translates into a 3% damage buff, but it does (3% to within several decimal places).
Just to be able to plot a curve to figure out exactly how faerie fire is interacting with wicked reminder, here are %'s for each stack of WR. I assume you tested to see that each stack of wicked reminder is exactly 4%?
Also there is around a 1.5% margin of error in these percents due to the rounding in the combat log.
FF+1 stack = 7.149% ~3+4%
FF+2 stack = 11.252% ~3+8%
FF+3 stack = 15.431% ~3+12%
FF+4 stack = 19.467% ~3+16%
FF+5 stack = 23.6% ~3+20%
Faerie Fire reduces the target's defense by 6%. Not entirely sure why that translates into a 3% damage buff, but it does (3% to within several decimal places).
Just to be able to plot a curve to figure out exactly how faerie fire is interacting with wicked reminder, here are %'s for each stack of WR. I assume you tested to see that each stack of wicked reminder is exactly 4%?
Also there is around a 1.5% margin of error in these percents due to the rounding in the combat log.
FF+1 stack = 7.149% ~3+4%
FF+2 stack = 11.252% ~3+8%
FF+3 stack = 15.431% ~3+12%
FF+4 stack = 19.467% ~3+16%
FF+5 stack = 23.6% ~3+20%
I just double checked wicked reminder and it is indeed 4% a stack. Basically what seems to be going on here is each debuff is multiplicative, farie fire is actually 3% and the tooltip is wrong, which would explain your numbers precisely. 1.00 (base) X 1.2 (wicked reminderX5) X 1.03 (FF) gives all your numbers almost exactly (has to round somewhere). Sol can you do a no wicked reminder, only FF test to see if FF is 3%?
WHAT THIS MEANS.
There may not be any such thing as "Defense reduction" and all such affects simply are a damage multiplier on the monster.
IF THIS IS TRUE
Then armor pen is godlike, regardless of the debuffs on the enemy. Basically they will have no interaction with each other and if your target has armor to be ignored through armor pen it will always give the full increase regardless of what the debuffs on him are.
can someone make me a summary? should i enchant armorpen? if yes, at which raiting should i stop and enchant something else? is the stat priority: armorpen > crit > recovery > power? thanks in advance :<
Confirmed that Armor Penetration is calculated before debuffs.
5 Stacks Wicked Reminder with 15% Armor Penetration:
13% more dmg.
5 Stacks Wicked Reminder with 16.7% Armor Penetration:
14.63% more dmg.
14.63 - 13 = 1.63, very close to the Armor Pen gain, could be exact due to Armor Pen rounding up in game stats board.
If Armor Pen was nullified due to debuffs reducing it below 0%, then the Armor Pen gain should not have changed anything, but it did.
It basically means 22% Armor Penetration is required to get full benefits on those level 60 Elite mobs in the foundry (Solo Grind). So i'd go for 22% minimum considering dungeon mobs are higher level.
So Armor Penetration is definitely a liner reduction of the targets mitigation? I did a huge test of this on the target dummies then discovered they have almost no mitigation. -_-
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I see, thank you,
It's one of the responses to this thread if you want to have a look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR4KdpzlbqU
According to the stream, he says Armor Pen will be diminished due to other players debuffs, but in this thread the verdict is that Armor Pen is calculated before debuffs, and debuffs go below 0%, so if you manage to get the mobs to 0% simply from Armor Pen, then you will benefit more from debuffs.
I do not know which one is correct.
After doing my own testing I have the following results:
Faerie fire results 3% bonus damage on a target which has no damage resistance when having no armor penetration.
Faerie fire + 5 stacks of wicked reminder and no armor penetration results in 23.6% bonus damage.
Faerie fire + 5 stacks of wicked reminder + 16.3% armor penetration results in 23.6% bonus damage.
Based on these results I can say one of two things for certain:
1. Armor penetration is calculated first and you gain bonus damage based on some combination of the debuffs applied to the target.
or
2. Targets with 0 defense/damage resistance to start with do not properly model the hypothesis.
Chances are it's the first one. So stacking armor pen to reduce the target's resistance to 0 will provide the maximum benefit from party debuffs.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
Just to be able to plot a curve to figure out exactly how faerie fire is interacting with wicked reminder, here are %'s for each stack of WR. I assume you tested to see that each stack of wicked reminder is exactly 4%?
Also there is around a 1.5% margin of error in these percents due to the rounding in the combat log.
FF+1 stack = 7.149% ~3+4%
FF+2 stack = 11.252% ~3+8%
FF+3 stack = 15.431% ~3+12%
FF+4 stack = 19.467% ~3+16%
FF+5 stack = 23.6% ~3+20%
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
5 Stacks Wicked Reminder with 15% Armor Penetration:
13% more dmg.
5 Stacks Wicked Reminder with 16.7% Armor Penetration:
14.63% more dmg.
14.63 - 13 = 1.63, very close to the Armor Pen gain, could be exact due to Armor Pen rounding up in game stats board.
If Armor Pen was nullified due to debuffs reducing it below 0%, then the Armor Pen gain should not have changed anything, but it did.
I just double checked wicked reminder and it is indeed 4% a stack. Basically what seems to be going on here is each debuff is multiplicative, farie fire is actually 3% and the tooltip is wrong, which would explain your numbers precisely. 1.00 (base) X 1.2 (wicked reminderX5) X 1.03 (FF) gives all your numbers almost exactly (has to round somewhere). Sol can you do a no wicked reminder, only FF test to see if FF is 3%?
WHAT THIS MEANS.
There may not be any such thing as "Defense reduction" and all such affects simply are a damage multiplier on the monster.
IF THIS IS TRUE
Then armor pen is godlike, regardless of the debuffs on the enemy. Basically they will have no interaction with each other and if your target has armor to be ignored through armor pen it will always give the full increase regardless of what the debuffs on him are.
Increased damage is (New damage-old damage)/(Old damage) you divided it by the new total.
Ops, sorry i'll fix my previous post, thanks.
Now that i fixed the math, if you look at post 40:
It basically means 22% Armor Penetration is required to get full benefits on those level 60 Elite mobs in the foundry (Solo Grind). So i'd go for 22% minimum considering dungeon mobs are higher level.
Armor Penetration Tooltip = 35.7*ArmorPenetration^1.88/(1225000+ArmorPenetration^1.88)
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?301761-Calculating-stats-and-their-effects
So Armor Penetration is definitely a liner reduction of the targets mitigation? I did a huge test of this on the target dummies then discovered they have almost no mitigation. -_-