Where did I say I thought neverwinter was better? Neverwinter is an incredibly underwhelming mmo release.
Claiming it has better questing, grouping, raiding, pvp, monster diversity, or items than other AAA mmo releases of late though is just disingenuous. Such comments are definitely born out of rose tinted glasses.
Do you actually realise what you are celebrating? Are you actually trying to say, while thinking rationally and not just based on what you remember, that it was a positive feature of early mmos that you had to kill 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of mobs to "progress" even a little bit?
If that is really your argument, then the correct word to describe such people exists in English; Masochistic. Typically, it's the same type of people that make such comments as "it's the journey, not the end".
I apologize, I took it that you were meaning this was all that. my bad.
Do you actually realise what you are celebrating? Are you actually trying to say, while thinking rationally and not just based on what you remember, that it was a positive feature of early mmos that you had to kill 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of mobs to "progress" even a little bit?
If that is really your argument, then the correct word to describe such people exists in English; Masochistic. Typically, it's the same type of people that make such comments as "it's the journey, not the end".
Do you actually realize, that back then, that is all there was? Pretty much all MMO's at that time were a grind fest, and you know what, people played these games for years. Tell me a game in recent MMO history that has much more than 6 months of playtime?
And yes, it was the journey I enjoyed, along with everyone else that played and it was worth it, because in DAoC the end game was an amazing RvR experience. Nowadays, it's a few raids and some terrible PvP.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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bpphantomMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
ooh remember the days when high level doors were locked and only rogues could open them, same with disarm traps...
wonder if any recent games would do that?!?
I remember when I had to kill the floating eyeball guy that blasted you, then defeat the ambush that spawned when you got half way through his room, just so you could get the yellow keycard that opened the door to the cyberdemon.
Games used to be hard. People wanted them to be easier. Now they're easier. People just want the end-game stuff.
- bpphantom
Grace, Tiefling Devoted Cleric
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are. Then leave the rest to Batman."
Do you actually realize, that back then, that is all there was? Pretty much all MMO's at that time were a grind fest, and you know what, people played these games for years. Tell me a game in recent MMO history that has much more than 6 months of playtime?
One comes to mind...
And yes, it was the journey I enjoyed, along with everyone else that played and it was worth it, because in DAoC the end game was an amazing RvR experience. Nowadays, it's a few raids and some terrible PvP.
Ok, let me clarify then. If the DAoC end game was an amazing RvR experience, how would that experienced have been lessened if the time it took to get there was cut in half, or even in quarter?
It wouldn't. This is exactly the quote I posted in the quote you quoted of me in this quote :cool:
People say "it's the journey that matters, not the end", then go on to say the reason they enjoyed the journey is because the end was fun. It's illogical.
I've played almost every major MMO release and a good deal of the minor ones since FFXI was my first a good 11 or so years ago, and in literally none of them does the leveling process make up any significant portion of my "fond memories" of the game. It seems to be a logical fallacy that many MMO players can't seem to get around; attributing the overall enjoyment of an MMO in any part to the process of leveling, without actually enjoying that process individually at all.
Quest based grinding was something of a means to address that and try and come at it from a different angle, and for people who care about the story on a micro scale, rather than just wanting the important bits, it seems to work pretty well. For players like myself who couldn't care less that Farmer Bob lost his sheep in the field, quest grinding is fundamentally no different to mob grinding, except the scenery changes less often.
"Leveling up" in every MMO released to date is a means to an end, and there are only two things that can change how much they impinge on the enjoyment of the end - shorten the duration of the means (or journey, if you will), or else somehow increase the value of the journey as an event in itself (which you can't do without bringing up the importance of your actions while leveling to be equivalent to those of endgame). For me, there is no answer - leveling will always be a necessary evil of MMORPGs.
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calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Do you actually realize, that back then, that is all there was? Pretty much all MMO's at that time were a grind fest, and you know what, people played these games for years. Tell me a game in recent MMO history that has much more than 6 months of playtime?
20 years ago I played a MUD excessively for 4 years and in the end I was only level 45 when some people were 90+. Granted, I spent a lot of it just chatting, buffing and saving people with emergency summons and cure poisons/resses. That MUD is still around.
I like lengthy and slow leveling as it seems to weed out a lot of players. In the end game you have people that tend to play their class much better and they take it more seriously or they would have never made it there. I think that it is due to that reason that in games like EQ1 we were able to have 50-100 people in a raid and have everyone know their roll and be very organized. In a game like this where a slow leveler will still hit 60 in under a month I don't see that happening. There aren't raids here now but you can see it in any dungeon run that you pick up from the que, not just the leveling but in this game there almost no penalty for dying too.
Ok, let me clarify then. If the DAoC end game was an amazing RvR experience, how would that experienced have been lessened if the time it took to get there was cut in half, or even in quarter?
It wouldn't. This is exactly the quote I posted in the quote you quoted of me in this quote :cool:
People say "it's the journey that matters, not the end", then go on to say the reason they enjoyed the journey is because the end was fun. It's illogical.
I've played almost every major MMO release and a good deal of the minor ones since FFXI was my first a good 11 or so years ago, and in literally none of them does the leveling process make up any significant portion of my "fond memories" of the game. It seems to be a logical fallacy that many MMO players can't seem to get around; attributing the overall enjoyment of an MMO in any part to the process of leveling, without actually enjoying that process individually at all.
Quest based grinding was something of a means to address that and try and come at it from a different angle, and for people who care about the story on a micro scale, rather than just wanting the important bits, it seems to work pretty well. For players like myself who couldn't care less that Farmer Bob lost his sheep in the field, quest grinding is fundamentally no different to mob grinding, except the scenery changes less often.
"Leveling up" in every MMO released to date is a means to an end, and there are only two things that can change how much they impinge on the enjoyment of the end - shorten the duration of the means (or journey, if you will), or else somehow increase the value of the journey as an event in itself (which you can't do without bringing up the importance of your actions while leveling to be equivalent to those of endgame). For me, there is no answer - leveling will always be a necessary evil of MMORPGs.
Not sure why you are having your period all over my happy thread. I'm sorry you hate EQ 1, no one cares. If you actually read through the posts before speaking, you would see that everyone is talking about a time when they were noobies. Qeynos to Freeport to meet up with buddies, hunting in black burrow etc. So yes, people actually enjoyed the game enjoyed levling up, not because there was nothing else, because it was fun, enjoyed so much that it is the most successful mmorpg to date. Its obvious you want things to be easy, you want to level fast and have easy dungeons, thats ok. But many of us enjoy the old days, hence the reason I made the post. Groups were never quiet, you talked for hours in your group, which made the game much more enjoyable. Obviously things have changed...I did 3 T2's lastnight, and not one person spoke a word...
Was a fun thread, meant to re-live some old days having a blast playing whatever game you miss.
I have a question. Everquest is still running, and its latest expansion came out only around half a year ago.
If it's so great, why are you playing Neverwinter instead of Everquest?
Or are you saying it was great, but no longer good?
graphics are outdated now and the majority of the good community that I knew left. I will be closely following EverQuest Next as the OP brought that game to my attention. maybe I will go ahead an download it to check it out next time the servers drop here and I'm bored.
I have a question. Everquest is still running, and its latest expansion came out only around half a year ago.
If it's so great, why are you playing Neverwinter instead of Everquest?
Or are you saying it was great, but no longer good?
This happy thread is taking a giant **** quickly it seems.
I love this game dude, Neverwinter. I'm having a blast playing it, and will continue to play it for quite some time. As I said in my beginning post, I'm bored at work, just wanted to remaniss about the old days. Thats it...
Also yes, I could have chose a better place to post this thread. Would have been better in the off-topic section, so my bad.
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avendi0Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 9Arc User
edited May 2013
This message isn't directed at anyone in this thread and is only slightly related to the OP... The string of thoughts came to me, and I hate to waste good thoughts by not writing them down. So I figured I'd actually login and post them here.
I miss Ultima Online. I even still have the first release version of the game in its original box, sitting on my mantle with all the old documents, CD (for a windows 95 compatible install of the game *gasp!*), and a cloth map of Britannia... Because pictures of people are overrated.
*cough*
Anyways...
UO was my first MMO, and I played it for years. I loved that game. Sadly, EA destroyed it, as well as any hopes of UO2. I moved on to Shadowbane, and my downward spiral has continued to this day.
I've hopped onto some of the free player run UO shards out there every couple years. Typically, I do that when I get tired of games that I feel can't live up to UO, and let the nostalgia take over.
I'll usually play on those free shards for a couple weeks while reminiscing. Then I slowly realize (again) that it's not the game that's different, because it's still that amazing 1024x768 game window inside a game window that gives you that 2D top-down view of your character and the world of Britannia around you... No, it's definitely not the game that's changed, but me. I'm older now, and my experiences in life and the lessons I've learned have fundamentally changed me and how I experience things.
I remember the most epic heights of awesome I experienced in each of the games I've played, and those moments are what I realize those games have become to me now. Memories of times past.
Trying to go back to those games, is like trying to go back to high school when you're 30. Sure, the buildings might look the same, the mascot might still be a HAMSTER looking pirate, and the parking spot in the North East corner might still be the make-out spot... but the experience of being there, will never be the same.
It's kind of a depressing thing to think about, but truth isn't always sunshine and rainbows. Especially the hard truths.
Then again, that's how things change. Through us and our experiences.
If we want to have an epic experience in a new game like the ones we remember, we can't use nostalgic feelings to measure our experience in a game. We have to try to create a new epic experience for ourselves, and not hold unreasonable expectations over developers to spoon feed us a complete experience that perfectly replicates our feelings of nostalgia.
Developers make the tools for us to use, and it's up to us to use those tools to create our own epic experience.
The last scattered point in this vomit of text (which most of you probably aren't still reading), is that an active and constructive community is what makes MMOs flourish, so try to help a games' community by not being a HAMSTER, even if you're not sticking around. If you feel that a game is not for you because the tools that the developers gave you are a hammer and spoon, when you wanted a scalpel and ball hammer (Read the previous paragraph again if this metaphor doesn't make sense), then leave your constructive input for the developers where they can find it. Then move on, and keep trying to create your new epic experience in another game. Never go around trashing a game and the people who play it in their own community, especially by comparing it and them to other games. you might as well be telling everyone in the office at work that you'd rather go back to high school instead of staying in your paying job, because you had more friends and actually got laid... Just think about that for a moment...
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calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The last scattered point in this vomit of text (which most of you probably aren't still reading)
I have a feeling that most people browsing this particular thread are not averse to reading more than a paragraph of text. It was a well written post and I mostly agree.
Gaming is a business, and with internet being closer to the masses than ever before - the target audience aren't geeks anymore, but your average-normal-Joes.
Joe plays consoles, and likes stuff like CS and GoW, Joe has money, Joe is 80% of the populace...
.. what I'm saying is - geeks are HAMSTER
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avendi0Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 9Arc User
I have a feeling that most people browsing this particular thread are not averse to reading more than a paragraph of text. It was a well written post and I mostly agree.
True enough, but at least someone read it and acknowledged it.
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pressexpose1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Munkey you have to understand that this is not an old school AAA title. It's whole design is to throw everyone into a huge teat and suckle at the rich ones at the bottom.
There are games like you remember. Some of us still play them on a table when we have the chance. Take this game for what it is, realise that before it gets an 'official release' it will be out of content for the endgamers ( the same as Star Trek, something they never fixed )
The game is not intended to entertain, distract or enthral. It's intended to tap at the reward synapses of the brain and let you know that for just a small outlay you can has wondrous stuffs.
I feel the same way about Asheron's Call. It was my first MMO. It was amazing.It really felt like being transported to another world. There were no zones. If you saw mountains in the distance you could run all the way there and climb to the top. It was one giant world. It did not feel like a theme park with different rides like so many games today. You never felt like you were on rails. Can someone who knows how these things work explain to me why an old game could do that but none of the new games can? In the Fall the leaves would change colors and there would be pumpkins and stuff. The world really changed with the seasons. I never got very far in the game. I just have never had a lot of time to really invest in these things although I do enjoy the time I spend. I think AC may still be running, I may check it out again.
I miss a lot of the old things about eq and that`s probably why I still play it a lot. There was a ton of things I hated about it back in 02 but most of it has been changed to be a little more easy on your nerves. Ever since I started playing that game, I played a lot of others on and off for years experimenting with other titles but always go back to eq because no other game can hold my interest like that game can. The graphics may be dated on it but after going back after a few years to it and get the hang of it again it kind of feels like you are finally home. No other game has that effect on me because they don`t make em like that anymore.
On a sidenote, anyone remember Shadowbane and how cool that was?
Yeah I remember Shadowbane, didn't play it much at all because I was playing other stuff but the concept always interested me. Players building cities and ruling them and others could come and destroy it if I remember right? Horizons was another that I thought at tons of potential but hit mega problems, it's still running as some guy bought it and started a new company or something to run it and develop new content, still a neat game where you can play as a dragon but graphics are pretty old now.
Comments
I apologize, I took it that you were meaning this was all that. my bad.
Do you actually realize, that back then, that is all there was? Pretty much all MMO's at that time were a grind fest, and you know what, people played these games for years. Tell me a game in recent MMO history that has much more than 6 months of playtime?
And yes, it was the journey I enjoyed, along with everyone else that played and it was worth it, because in DAoC the end game was an amazing RvR experience. Nowadays, it's a few raids and some terrible PvP.
I remember when I had to kill the floating eyeball guy that blasted you, then defeat the ambush that spawned when you got half way through his room, just so you could get the yellow keycard that opened the door to the cyberdemon.
Games used to be hard. People wanted them to be easier. Now they're easier. People just want the end-game stuff.
Grace, Tiefling Devoted Cleric
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are. Then leave the rest to Batman."
Ok, let me clarify then. If the DAoC end game was an amazing RvR experience, how would that experienced have been lessened if the time it took to get there was cut in half, or even in quarter?
It wouldn't. This is exactly the quote I posted in the quote you quoted of me in this quote :cool:
People say "it's the journey that matters, not the end", then go on to say the reason they enjoyed the journey is because the end was fun. It's illogical.
I've played almost every major MMO release and a good deal of the minor ones since FFXI was my first a good 11 or so years ago, and in literally none of them does the leveling process make up any significant portion of my "fond memories" of the game. It seems to be a logical fallacy that many MMO players can't seem to get around; attributing the overall enjoyment of an MMO in any part to the process of leveling, without actually enjoying that process individually at all.
Quest based grinding was something of a means to address that and try and come at it from a different angle, and for people who care about the story on a micro scale, rather than just wanting the important bits, it seems to work pretty well. For players like myself who couldn't care less that Farmer Bob lost his sheep in the field, quest grinding is fundamentally no different to mob grinding, except the scenery changes less often.
"Leveling up" in every MMO released to date is a means to an end, and there are only two things that can change how much they impinge on the enjoyment of the end - shorten the duration of the means (or journey, if you will), or else somehow increase the value of the journey as an event in itself (which you can't do without bringing up the importance of your actions while leveling to be equivalent to those of endgame). For me, there is no answer - leveling will always be a necessary evil of MMORPGs.
20 years ago I played a MUD excessively for 4 years and in the end I was only level 45 when some people were 90+. Granted, I spent a lot of it just chatting, buffing and saving people with emergency summons and cure poisons/resses. That MUD is still around.
Some things are better as memories.
Not sure why you are having your period all over my happy thread. I'm sorry you hate EQ 1, no one cares. If you actually read through the posts before speaking, you would see that everyone is talking about a time when they were noobies. Qeynos to Freeport to meet up with buddies, hunting in black burrow etc. So yes, people actually enjoyed the game enjoyed levling up, not because there was nothing else, because it was fun, enjoyed so much that it is the most successful mmorpg to date. Its obvious you want things to be easy, you want to level fast and have easy dungeons, thats ok. But many of us enjoy the old days, hence the reason I made the post. Groups were never quiet, you talked for hours in your group, which made the game much more enjoyable. Obviously things have changed...I did 3 T2's lastnight, and not one person spoke a word...
Was a fun thread, meant to re-live some old days having a blast playing whatever game you miss.
Go have your period somewhere else poopee pants.
If it's so great, why are you playing Neverwinter instead of Everquest?
Or are you saying it was great, but no longer good?
graphics are outdated now and the majority of the good community that I knew left. I will be closely following EverQuest Next as the OP brought that game to my attention. maybe I will go ahead an download it to check it out next time the servers drop here and I'm bored.
This happy thread is taking a giant **** quickly it seems.
I love this game dude, Neverwinter. I'm having a blast playing it, and will continue to play it for quite some time. As I said in my beginning post, I'm bored at work, just wanted to remaniss about the old days. Thats it...
Also yes, I could have chose a better place to post this thread. Would have been better in the off-topic section, so my bad.
I miss Ultima Online. I even still have the first release version of the game in its original box, sitting on my mantle with all the old documents, CD (for a windows 95 compatible install of the game *gasp!*), and a cloth map of Britannia... Because pictures of people are overrated.
*cough*
Anyways...
UO was my first MMO, and I played it for years. I loved that game. Sadly, EA destroyed it, as well as any hopes of UO2. I moved on to Shadowbane, and my downward spiral has continued to this day.
I've hopped onto some of the free player run UO shards out there every couple years. Typically, I do that when I get tired of games that I feel can't live up to UO, and let the nostalgia take over.
I'll usually play on those free shards for a couple weeks while reminiscing. Then I slowly realize (again) that it's not the game that's different, because it's still that amazing 1024x768 game window inside a game window that gives you that 2D top-down view of your character and the world of Britannia around you... No, it's definitely not the game that's changed, but me. I'm older now, and my experiences in life and the lessons I've learned have fundamentally changed me and how I experience things.
I remember the most epic heights of awesome I experienced in each of the games I've played, and those moments are what I realize those games have become to me now. Memories of times past.
Trying to go back to those games, is like trying to go back to high school when you're 30. Sure, the buildings might look the same, the mascot might still be a HAMSTER looking pirate, and the parking spot in the North East corner might still be the make-out spot... but the experience of being there, will never be the same.
It's kind of a depressing thing to think about, but truth isn't always sunshine and rainbows. Especially the hard truths.
Then again, that's how things change. Through us and our experiences.
If we want to have an epic experience in a new game like the ones we remember, we can't use nostalgic feelings to measure our experience in a game. We have to try to create a new epic experience for ourselves, and not hold unreasonable expectations over developers to spoon feed us a complete experience that perfectly replicates our feelings of nostalgia.
Developers make the tools for us to use, and it's up to us to use those tools to create our own epic experience.
The last scattered point in this vomit of text (which most of you probably aren't still reading), is that an active and constructive community is what makes MMOs flourish, so try to help a games' community by not being a HAMSTER, even if you're not sticking around. If you feel that a game is not for you because the tools that the developers gave you are a hammer and spoon, when you wanted a scalpel and ball hammer (Read the previous paragraph again if this metaphor doesn't make sense), then leave your constructive input for the developers where they can find it. Then move on, and keep trying to create your new epic experience in another game. Never go around trashing a game and the people who play it in their own community, especially by comparing it and them to other games. you might as well be telling everyone in the office at work that you'd rather go back to high school instead of staying in your paying job, because you had more friends and actually got laid... Just think about that for a moment...
I have a feeling that most people browsing this particular thread are not averse to reading more than a paragraph of text. It was a well written post and I mostly agree.
Joe plays consoles, and likes stuff like CS and GoW, Joe has money, Joe is 80% of the populace...
.. what I'm saying is - geeks are HAMSTER
True enough, but at least someone read it and acknowledged it.
There are games like you remember. Some of us still play them on a table when we have the chance. Take this game for what it is, realise that before it gets an 'official release' it will be out of content for the endgamers ( the same as Star Trek, something they never fixed )
The game is not intended to entertain, distract or enthral. It's intended to tap at the reward synapses of the brain and let you know that for just a small outlay you can has wondrous stuffs.
On a sidenote, anyone remember Shadowbane and how cool that was?