Foundry is a "Tacked on" poor modding tool.

watever2 · May 2013

I have been modding and making indy games for about 20 years and I can honestly say The Foundry has to be the worst tool I have ever used. Mouse pointer moves to top left and pressing ctrl-s is only way to stop it, panning screen sometimes doesn't work, RESPEC TOOL IS BROKEN MAKING IT IMPOSSIBLE TO PLAYTEST MAPS???!!!! WTF? Sound doesn't work.... really? No sound??
I have a friend who play tests the things I create and he actually said that not being able to play test my maps in the foundry because of the ridiculous review section is a game changer, ie he doesn't want to play NW anymore (Maybe he's exaggerating I'm not sure).
Releasing a half baked tool set is worse than not releasing one at all.
Serious modders will stay away from this garbage I can assure you. Maybe if Cryptic pull their finger out it might get the recognition it deserves but I doubt Cryptic are going to do much as they are too busy making the next

forien69 · May 2013

About disappearing mouse - drag items SLOWLY from library. That happens only if you quick-draw them.

About respec - it already works. Only stats are 0... just publish quest with TEST in title and try with live character.

About finding quest - why do you think shortcode exists?

But yeah, it's not perfect and has many, many things to work on.

But no, it's not worst.

ysil6969 · May 2013

It's still a WIP. Right now it is EXTREMELY limited, but hopefully they start opening that up more.

kamikazego · May 2013

watever2 wrote: »

I have been modding and making indy games for about 20 years and I can honestly say The Foundry has to be the worst tool I have ever used.

C'mon man... Modding and making indy games for 20 years?

No reason to give your whole life story, since we're not going to believe it anyway.

Moving on:
1. I have sound in my maps. Not sure if the sounds you are using are specifically broken or you are just placing it wrong.
2. Never had an issue with the mouse moving anywhere on me except where I wantedi t to go.
3. "Half baked"... I don't think that term means what you think it means.
4. "Serious" modders will find their way around any difficulties and barriers and create fun and in-depth quests/maps anyway.
5. It is still technically open beta. While open beta does usually mean that not much is going to be changed before release, they do still usually have a few more patches before it is officially "released".

Also, Forien69, please don't encourage more people to make "TEST" maps. It just clogs up the "Review" section even more. No one can find their own maps for the first time.

medullan · May 2013

The only thing that had any hope of making this game not suck was the foundry. If it isn't improved then serious modders are going to go right back to Baldurs Gate Enhanced Edition to create custom content. And yes kamikazego we have been modding for 20 years. I was modding on my Commodore when Pool of Radiance came out. D&D video games have been the most modifiable video games since the early 80s. The foundry has way too many bugs and not nearly enough options. Custom user created content and the Neverwinter name are supposed to be synonymous. If Cryptic and PWE don't fix this they will lose their fanbase. Without the die hard fans that have been following this line since Baldurs Gate and Icewindale this game has no chance of succeeding.

coanunn · May 2013

medullan wrote: »

The only thing that had any hope of making this game not suck was the foundry. If it isn't improved then serious modders are going to go right back to Baldurs Gate Enhanced Edition to create custom content. And yes kamikazego we have been modding for 20 years. I was modding on my Commodore when Pool of Radiance came out. D&D video games have been the most modifiable video games since the early 80s. The foundry has way too many bugs and not nearly enough options. Custom user created content and the Neverwinter name are supposed to be synonymous. If Cryptic and PWE don't fix this they will lose their fanbase. Without the die hard fans that have been following this line since Baldurs Gate and Icewindale this game has no chance of succeeding.

I think that while it's true that the Foundry is a huge part of this game's future I think you really over estimate the impact of the "die hard fans" leaving this game. It's not NWN2 where the only thing keeping the game relevant years after launch is the modding community who host their own servers. This is a mid to low range mmo that PWE will keep open and consider successful so long as anyone is buying Zen. There are a VAST number of people who could care less about the foundry content, the D&D brand, the Neverwinter pedigree and history that will flock to try this game simply because "It's not WoW". Foundry content for those people will be the "what to do when not grinding dungeons" and nothing more. A modern MMO can be successful with nothing more than a handful of "end game" dungeons that keep the players on a constant gear treadmill. As much as we'd like to think otherwise simply compare the number of posts per day in the foundry section of the forums vs the general section. Less than a quarter of the player base is actively involved in anything to do with the foundry outside the daily.

hercul33t · May 2013

Hmmm... while the foundry isn't an amazing program by any means, there are still a few of us who make creative use of what's provided. I don't have 20 years experience and somehow I still get rave reviews.

I'm thinking PEBCAK.

zahinder · May 2013

I invite you to point to a MMO with a better mod system.

medullan · May 2013

NWN 1 and 2 had a better mod system. As far as keeping players playing this game without foundry improvements. Yeah I am sure PWE will manage to make a few bucks from players who don't know any better, but there are countless MMORPGs out there that are 10 times better than this game and vary from WOW clones to completely different games. With foundry improvements this game has the potential to be the best MMO on the market and without them it will just be another F2P game that very few people will spend any significant amount of time playing.All these people you mention who could care less about the foundry content, the D&D brand, the Neverwinter pedigree and history etc. may play this game but not for long and most will not spend money. The fact of the matter is it is a poorly designed game with subpar graphics, a poorly balanced economy, poorly balanced classes, and horribly slow servers.

chili1179 · May 2013

Wait, you mean this free game doesn't put a complex creation tool that normally would costs hundreds if not thousands of dollars in the hands of anyone who can use a mouse?

/headsplode

gazza126 · May 2013

NWN 1 and 2 arn't technically MMORPG's so there irrelevant to this conversation.
Now name 2 other MMO's which are moddable (and aren't cryptic games).
And actually alot of the people playing now are D&D players. seriously most of the conversations i see in general are about D&D and the only reason i can see most of them quitting(and not spending money cause everyone knows alot of D&D players spend alooottt of money) is if a 2nd edition mmo comes out. but as i can't see that happening in the near future i think they'll probably stick for awhile.
so what 'indy games' have you made?

tilt42 · May 2013

I think someone (not going to mention names, but I can reveal that he is the OP in this thread) doesn't know what "modding" is. Suffice to say, the Foundry is not a modding tool, has never been, and will most likely never be. Judging it as a modding tool is like criticizing a Big Mac for not being a very good hot dog.

coanunn · May 2013

tilt42 wrote: »

I think someone (not going to mention names, but I can reveal that he is the OP in this thread) doesn't know what "modding" is. Suffice to say, the Foundry is not a modding tool, has never been, and will most likely never be. Judging it as a modding tool is like criticizing a Big Mac for not being a very good hot dog.

I lol'd yep.. full on lol'd

hercooles130uscg · May 2013

I think people came in expecting the Auroria toolset, or some other high end toolset. Why they failed to realize is those other tool sets or modding tools, are for much more limited games in terms of players. NWO has to worry about keeping possible exploits and hacks to a minimum as well as needing to make sure players are not having to download large files to play a simple Foundry quest.

For this reason, EVERYTHING is done server side, the reason a lot of people complain about the Foundry Preview sucking is because you do not have full access to the server for that, so thing like advanced NPC pathing will not be available until you publish. It does suck, and I do think they need a way to test your Foundry under Live conditions without releasing it for anyone but yourself to see, but it is not a game breaker.

As for the no sound, yes, that is a bull**** bug that has been in since Alpha, and nothing has been done about it. Same with the disappearing mouse bug, and the constant issue of drop down menu's disappearing behind their parent windows, forcing you to guess where to click to get the option you want.

I am not saying the Foundry is perfect, and Cryptics handling of it has to this point been atrocious, but it is far from a horrible experience.

tilt42 · May 2013

It seems to me that Foundry patching is handled separately from other patching in the game, and that fixes and feature additions for the Foundry are done in large bulks rather than small doses. For this reason it might feel like we're being ignored or not given much of a priority. This isn't the case. My experience from the closed beta was that the Foundry patches were rare, but were extremely large. We'll probably see a ton of fixes/additions when we first get them, which I suspect will be sooner rather than later.

luther8 · May 2013

Even knowing the foundry is limited if you pay attention to every quest you do you will notice that you can duplicate every single thing in neverwinter except the cutscenes, Shops, harvest points, and boss's.

wuhsin · May 2013

hercooles130uscg wrote: »

As for the no sound, yes, that is a bull**** bug that has been in since Alpha, and nothing has been done about it.

Yes, total bull. On a positive note though, it has discouraged me from rushing to complete my Foundry project, probably resulting in better quality work.

thegodporing · May 2013

The only experience I've had from map creation tools prior to the Foundry is Warcraft 3 and Starcraft 2 so I'm somewhat of a novice.
And I must say as a novice I have done just about everything I've wanted to do with the exception of one or two minor things that really don't matter and can easily be worked around.
For you 'hardcore' authors you may have some trouble but a vast majority of the player base will get what they want out of it and do so with ease.

kamaliicious · May 2013

luther8 wrote: »

Even knowing the foundry is limited if you pay attention to every quest you do you will notice that you can duplicate every single thing in neverwinter except the cutscenes, Shops, harvest points, and boss's.

And most of the skies, and the detail budget, and the stairs indoors, and the 3d maps with overlapping rooms, and the map size, and a slew of monsters, and a number of vfx, and some placeable details, and .... but other than that, you can duplicate every single thing in Neverwinter.

wuhsin · May 2013

kamaliicious wrote: »

And most of the skies, and the detail budget, and the stairs indoors, and the 3d maps with overlapping rooms, and the map size, and a slew of monsters, and a number of vfx, and some placeable details, and .... but other than that, you can duplicate every single thing in Neverwinter.

Don't forget sfx.

angrysprite · May 2013

wuhsin wrote: »

Yes, total bull. On a positive note though, it has discouraged me from rushing to complete my Foundry project, probably resulting in better quality work.

This. And one should not rush a project because it always ends-up being HAMSTER. Yea, really. A good Foundry project will take a couple weeks at least.

As to the OP: my advice: go away. Whiners and elitists need not apply. If the Foundry is not your bag of tea then go fond one somewhere else that is. You'll be doing all of us a favor, not to mention every Foundry Quest player in game by not clogging-up an already over-saturated library list.

The Foundry is what it is. It is what it always will be. The short answer and solution to your gripe is pretty simple: don't use it.

OR, you could make a handy, constructive and detailed list of all the things you find wrong with it and post a new thread into the BUGS forum, in a format that is actually helpful and informative for the developers.

You DO know how to do that right? I mean, being a "indie developer for 20 years" and all that. ~cough~

wuhsin · May 2013

angrysprite wrote: »

This. And one should not rush a project because it always ends-up being HAMSTER. Yea, really. A good Foundry project will take a couple weeks at least.

Indeed. There are too many HAMSTER-fests out there getting their praises sung while the true masterpieces are still works in progress.

hercooles130uscg · May 2013

tilt42 wrote: »

It seems to me that Foundry patching is handled separately from other patching in the game, and that fixes and feature additions for the Foundry are done in large bulks rather than small doses. For this reason it might feel like we're being ignored or not given much of a priority. This isn't the case. My experience from the closed beta was that the Foundry patches were rare, but were extremely large. We'll probably see a ton of fixes/additions when we first get them, which I suspect will be sooner rather than later.

I understand that was how they worked, but even then, considering Open Beta is really just a different way of saying "Released", figuring most major websites are doing their large reviews, and also considering that Cryptic keeps trying to play the Foundry off as their Ace in Neverwinter, some things like the extremely major sound issue and some of the more annoying editing bugs, should be been patched a long time go.

There have been 3-4 of these "large" patches since the sound bug was first mass reported. And the issue with drop down menus and disappearing cursor has been around many more patches ago then that.

I just think they have a skeleton crew working with the Foundry, and it gets very little attention to the over all game, which is fine, if they stopped pretending they care so much about the Foundry and are giving it their top priority as they always say and one of the key features of the game.

Of course, that might have been their intent when they first started developing NWO, and it might not even be Cryptic at all that is causing delays. PWE probably has other ideas, and since the Foundry does not directly make any money as it is one of the few features that is not monetized, Cryptic staff is probably getting a load of upper management harassment(from the Greedy Overlords at PWE) to not worry about the Foundry until profits start really rolling in from other parts of the game.

Just a theory.

kamaliicious · May 2013

Anyone who thinks even the most popular Foundries getting as much play as official content is silly. Since the xp/loot nerf there's even less reason to play Foundry than before for most people.

castsbugc · May 2013

hercooles130uscg wrote: »

I understand that was how they worked, but even then, considering Open Beta is really just a different way of saying "Released", figuring most major websites are doing their large reviews, and also considering that Cryptic keeps trying to play the Foundry off as their Ace in Neverwinter, some things like the extremely major sound issue and some of the more annoying editing bugs, should be been patched a long time go.

There have been 3-4 of these "large" patches since the sound bug was first mass reported. And the issue with drop down menus and disappearing cursor has been around many more patches ago then that.

I just think they have a skeleton crew working with the Foundry, and it gets very little attention to the over all game, which is fine, if they stopped pretending they care so much about the Foundry and are giving it their top priority as they always say and one of the key features of the game.

Of course, that might have been their intent when they first started developing NWO, and it might not even be Cryptic at all that is causing delays. PWE probably has other ideas, and since the Foundry does not directly make any money as it is one of the few features that is not monetized, Cryptic staff is probably getting a load of upper management harassment(from the Greedy Overlords at PWE) to not worry about the Foundry until profits start really rolling in from other parts of the game.

Just a theory.

Keep in mind that bugfixing is always a matter of triage. Sometimes its just as simple as, 'oops we left a comma off here' other times its 'We have to review 20k lines of code for this little thing, or we could fix this OP great fighter issue that effects everyone'

Ive been dealing with Foundry issues for a LONG time, you think you got troubles...At least there is more than a chance the NW foundry community wont be a marginalized sideline affair that occasionally gets blessed with booms from on high.

castsbugc · May 2013

kamaliicious wrote: »

Anyone who thinks even the most popular Foundries getting as much play as official content is silly. Since the xp/loot nerf there's even less reason to play Foundry than before for most people.

I have always held that playing a UGC mission should never be about the 'shinies,' that it should be about experiencing a story crafted by someone else for enjoyment sake. My experience though shows that the definition of enjoyment is very broad and your milage may vary. To be honest I find generally i have more fun making the missions and working out new ways to use things then I sometimes have in game playing things.

zahinder · May 2013

The only other MMO UGC out there is Star Trek Online's Foundry (which is much, much, MUCH worse, given it's the testbed that lead to Neverwinter's Foundry), and Saga of Ryzom's scripted thing (which is, from what I understand, very limited).

For defunct games, there's City of Heroes' Mission Architect, which was very limited (you couldn't really make maps, no fx, almost no flexibility in story or dialog, etc.)

After that... ... none of the rest are actual MMOs.

Now, if you don't think 'being an MMO' is worth the compromises and pine for the mod capabilities of NWN, well, sorry.

kamaliicious · May 2013

castsbugc wrote: »

I have always held that playing a UGC mission should never be about the 'shinies,' that it should be about experiencing a story crafted by someone else for enjoyment sake. My experience though shows that the definition of enjoyment is very broad and your milage may vary. To be honest I find generally i have more fun making the missions and working out new ways to use things then I sometimes have in game playing things.

I have one toon, it only plays Foundry and it is level 23. I got to see the official content since I was a Foundry beta tester and thus had alpha access, so I don't bother with it now that the game is live. I have 4 quests all published during closed beta and all rated 4 stars as of yesterday. But I don't hold any idea that what I'm doing is the norm. I'm sure there are other people doing it, but one look into the gen discussion forum should be enough to tell that it's not common.

The most popular Foundry content has less than 100,000 plays last I looked. I'm sure Cryptic's content gets a lot more than that. The game's money makers are all built around endgame as there's no real reason to spend money before that (why waste dye packs on something that's going to get replaced in an hour or two of play?). Foundry as it is now can not compete at endgame. PWE is in the money making business and Foundry, as neat as the idea may be, doesn't bring it in in nearly the amounts the official content does.

yospeck · May 2013

Bad workman blames his tools.

Sorry but whilst it's far from perfect, nine times out of ten it's people not spending the time to learn how to do stuff. I've yet to be massively impressed with most of the Foundry quests I've run, but I know the stuff I've been making is considerably more advanced/detailed because I'm in no rush to get stuff out there.

They've said from day one they will continue to add both art and features to the Foundry, it's already a big step up from what they had in STO. This is Open Beta; what you are playing is far from the end result, and even if it was... I could honestly live with it. Considering what it allows you to do in comparison to other MMOs... the Foundry is outstanding (so much so that I've barely played the actual game).

yospeck · May 2013

kamaliicious wrote: »

Foundry as it is now can not compete at endgame. PWE is in the money making business and Foundry, as neat as the idea may be, doesn't bring it in in nearly the amounts the official content does.

That's because most of the Foundry quests are 15-30min thrash through mobs... people really aren't utilising the potential; they're using it in a very basic way, which includes how people are approaching encounters. Whilst there are limitations with the Foundry there's also major limitations with how people are trying to utilise it and just aren't being creative enough.

izatar · May 2013

kamaliicious wrote: »

The most popular Foundry content has less than 100,000 plays last I look

The most popular quest is tilt42's "A Hidden Blade", which when both the spotlighted and non-spotlighted versions are combined, has 170,000 plays! LanceKepner1's "The Secret of Blacklake" clears 130k with spotlight and nonspotlight version, and my own "I am Slayer" comes in at 120,000 when both versions are counted. Mind blowing really.

Foundry is a "Tacked on" poor modding tool.

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