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TR Stat Guide
gravethought
Member Posts: 31
Hey everyone, I decided since it gets asked alot to breakdown what stats do and how they work for the trickster rogue. Hopefully people find this helpful.
OFFENSIVE STATS
Power: This statistic increases the damage of each skill by a flat amount. The amount varies for each skill depending on a coefficient. Unfortunately after testing this stat seems to scale horribly, especially for our larger hitting attacks. For example, 125 power added a whopping 7 damage to lashing blade, our hardest hitting non daily attack. The 7/5099 (5099 was the damage before the 125 was power was added) = 0.13% damage increase. This means thats even if you added 2500 power, you would only see an increase of around a 2.6% in the damage of lashing blade. Unsure of power coefficients for duelists flurry mini-hits and bleed, could make the stat more pve worthy.
Crit: On the other hand this fairs a little better. This increases your chance to critically strike, which adds a baseline 75% damage, further modified be critical severity boosting feats. For a execution specced character, there is no better stat. (This is because of overun critical, which gives you a boost of 30% of your critical severity, which is probably 30% if you are stealthed.) Base line every 1% crit will add .75% damage, more for executioners.
Recovery: This stat is almost impossible to mathematically quantify, as it increases action point gain and decreases cooldown times of your encounters. Since different encounters generate different amounts of action points this further complicates evaluating the stat. Overall I think it is better than power, simply because lurker's assault is so **** good.
Armor penetration: The most underrated and possibly most powerful stat in the game. Most people don't even know how this stat functions. The % of armor penetration is directly subtracted from the defense % of the target. YES SUBTRACTED. This means if a target has 50% mitigation through defense and you have 50% armor penetration, their defense does nothing and you effectively do TWICE the damage than if you had 0 armor penetration. However this stat is completely dependent on the defense of your target. As far as I could tell parsing through the combat log, this will not reduce defenses below 0%, meaning if you have 20% armor pen vs a 15% defense target, 5% is effectively wasted. Pve mobs seem to have around 15% defense, but mobs vary by type, certain mobs have more or less. In pvp almost everyone has at LEAST 20%. Also 125 armor pen added 1% armor pen even at 2k+ armor penetration, making this possibly the best stat for any non executioner and the 2nd best stat for executioner as long as extra armor pen isnt being wasted.
Note: Does not currently work with our bleed from duelists furry (this is currently considered a bug). This will degrade this stat in pve.
DEFENSIVE STATS:
Defense: If you want more survivability, this is pound for pound the best place to start putting it. This decreases the amount of damage taken by a %, and while this stat will have diminishing returns on you as it's value gets higher, mitigation increases exponentially. (Going from 0 to 50% cuts your dmage taken in half, but it only takes 50 to 75% to cut it in half again). However, pvp'ers beware. Armor pen cuts through this like butter, and other classes may already stacking armor pen to take down clerics and GF's.
Deflect: This is another stat that scales badly. However, have you ever lashing bladed another TR for like 3k with no astral shield in sight? Well you got deflected. Due to some really bad translation or otherwise I have determined that a deflected blow makes you only take 25% of the damage and not 25% less as the tooltip in game would have you believe. So a deflected blows mitigates 75% of the damage. This makes me feel a little less bad about popping impossible to catch without the stealth bonus.
Life Steal: This is our main form of self healing, it isn't gonna be super amazing but it can help top you off or sometimes save your ***. I've healed myself for considerable chunks with lashing blade. It is a % of the damage you deal.
Regeneration: Not only is this pretty bad, slow, and not really found on any TR gear, but you only get the full bonus if you are getting your *** kicked. Don't look for this stat, just......don't.
OFFENSIVE STATS
Power: This statistic increases the damage of each skill by a flat amount. The amount varies for each skill depending on a coefficient. Unfortunately after testing this stat seems to scale horribly, especially for our larger hitting attacks. For example, 125 power added a whopping 7 damage to lashing blade, our hardest hitting non daily attack. The 7/5099 (5099 was the damage before the 125 was power was added) = 0.13% damage increase. This means thats even if you added 2500 power, you would only see an increase of around a 2.6% in the damage of lashing blade. Unsure of power coefficients for duelists flurry mini-hits and bleed, could make the stat more pve worthy.
Crit: On the other hand this fairs a little better. This increases your chance to critically strike, which adds a baseline 75% damage, further modified be critical severity boosting feats. For a execution specced character, there is no better stat. (This is because of overun critical, which gives you a boost of 30% of your critical severity, which is probably 30% if you are stealthed.) Base line every 1% crit will add .75% damage, more for executioners.
Recovery: This stat is almost impossible to mathematically quantify, as it increases action point gain and decreases cooldown times of your encounters. Since different encounters generate different amounts of action points this further complicates evaluating the stat. Overall I think it is better than power, simply because lurker's assault is so **** good.
Armor penetration: The most underrated and possibly most powerful stat in the game. Most people don't even know how this stat functions. The % of armor penetration is directly subtracted from the defense % of the target. YES SUBTRACTED. This means if a target has 50% mitigation through defense and you have 50% armor penetration, their defense does nothing and you effectively do TWICE the damage than if you had 0 armor penetration. However this stat is completely dependent on the defense of your target. As far as I could tell parsing through the combat log, this will not reduce defenses below 0%, meaning if you have 20% armor pen vs a 15% defense target, 5% is effectively wasted. Pve mobs seem to have around 15% defense, but mobs vary by type, certain mobs have more or less. In pvp almost everyone has at LEAST 20%. Also 125 armor pen added 1% armor pen even at 2k+ armor penetration, making this possibly the best stat for any non executioner and the 2nd best stat for executioner as long as extra armor pen isnt being wasted.
Note: Does not currently work with our bleed from duelists furry (this is currently considered a bug). This will degrade this stat in pve.
DEFENSIVE STATS:
Defense: If you want more survivability, this is pound for pound the best place to start putting it. This decreases the amount of damage taken by a %, and while this stat will have diminishing returns on you as it's value gets higher, mitigation increases exponentially. (Going from 0 to 50% cuts your dmage taken in half, but it only takes 50 to 75% to cut it in half again). However, pvp'ers beware. Armor pen cuts through this like butter, and other classes may already stacking armor pen to take down clerics and GF's.
Deflect: This is another stat that scales badly. However, have you ever lashing bladed another TR for like 3k with no astral shield in sight? Well you got deflected. Due to some really bad translation or otherwise I have determined that a deflected blow makes you only take 25% of the damage and not 25% less as the tooltip in game would have you believe. So a deflected blows mitigates 75% of the damage. This makes me feel a little less bad about popping impossible to catch without the stealth bonus.
Life Steal: This is our main form of self healing, it isn't gonna be super amazing but it can help top you off or sometimes save your ***. I've healed myself for considerable chunks with lashing blade. It is a % of the damage you deal.
Regeneration: Not only is this pretty bad, slow, and not really found on any TR gear, but you only get the full bonus if you are getting your *** kicked. Don't look for this stat, just......don't.
Post edited by gravethought on
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Comments
I think many rogues, myself included, are stacking power. Looks like I'll take a look at apen and recovery a bit more. I had no idea Armor Pen worked that way, great to know...
which almost certainly means they follow a curve.
meaning, lets say you have 0 power. add 100, gives you +50 damage.
if you have, now have 100 power, add another 100, gives you +35 damage.
you now have 200, add another 100 power, gives you +20 damage.
For a system like this, there will be a "soft cap" a point in the curve where it becomes more cost effective to stop investing in it.
And since power and crit multiply into each other, a balance between the two is the obvious choice.
Based on the following picture it seems i got 1% per 100 points.
I also have another question, what is the diminishing return on Critical Strike? You say it is the best stat, however at 50% crit chance i have a feeling i should stop with that and stack power from now on, while maintaining 15% Armor Pen.
I think they should follow a curve somewhat too, but out of curiosity I tested it right now; my power/crit was not high but it seems to be linear increment rather than curve.
Power @ 1415 - "Damage and Healing Bonus: 56.6"; Power @ 706 - "Damage and Healing Bonus: 28.2"
Crit @ 575 - "Critical Chance: 6%"; Crit @ 285 (half of 575 is 287.5 but I got it close enough) - "Critical Chance: 2.9%"
In both test above the half way point is a bit lower than I planned but it actually works well when I thought about it. Since the value are a bit lower than half and the damage bonus and critical chance, respectively, are also a bit lower than half. If it was a curve it HAD to be greater than half because in a curve the increment diminishes the higher you go. But since there does not seem to be a curve, stacking as much crit may be a better option. Following the linear increment above if I focused on crit rather than power, 1500 crit will give me about 15% crit chance and having 500 power will only yield me at least 20 damage bonus. Since damage bonus is flat(may be more effective earlier on but effectiveness decrease at later levels; or it should) rather than percentage bonus I think I will switch to crit now.
I'm full T1 geared with the exception of my Neck(Cape of the Half Orc, 250 crit strike on it), and my Belt, which has comparable power/crit(-4~5 for either compared to t1 belt). I'm just shy of 3000 crit rating and enchanting with azure enchants doesn't increase the % anymore(not even by 0.x% amounts)
I ran various level 60 foundries and added/subtracted armor penetration. 15% seemed to be the sweet spot FOR LEVEL 60 but I am sure that higher mobs level dungeons and perhaps bosses have higher values. Unfortunately I would need a dedicated test team to que and let me fiddle with gear void of other classes debuffing things and what not. It is very easy to see however, as the combat log does a wonderful thing in showing the unmitigated damage in brackets. One must only slowly add armor pen till that number dissapears to be informed he is dealing true damage without defense interfering.
Further testing I want to do includes some pvp things with armor pen (such as if armor pen can pierce astral shield). Unfortunately that would require some silly late night ques with full teams
As for when to stop stacking, when i finish my defensive analysis I will write a summary discussing how to balance stats. As with any mmo, each stat will have a break point which will fluctuate based on the value of the other stats, as they will all affect each other multiplicative. The reason that power is so horrible is because weapons have such a huge amount of base damage and they come with unavoidable amounts of power. (Thus knowing the value of power at 0 power is useless)
I don't have the gear yet to see if there truly is a crit cap, and if there is, if it is a rating cap or a % cap (Aka will increasing dex extend the "cap"). Also, level 7 runes be expensive. : (
Thats a good tip, but i am slightly confused.
The number outside bracket is higher than the one inside the bracket. If the number inside bracket is unmitigated doesn't that mean its should be either higher or equal to the actual damage i did? (That is if the bracket number stands for the full damage without mitigation)
Mitigation can go negative if you applied plaguefire or similar debuffs.
Also, dummy has 0 defense. Not a very good testing subject.
I got another screenshot on a mob in epic temple of the spider
but i dont understand what does the number in bracket stand for exactly? how come its lower than the actual dmg i did.
Is it supposed to be the unmitigated full number which would make no sense because its lower than the actual dmg i did?
Or is it supposed to be the mitigated number which also makes no sense because of the dummy number i showed and dummy has 0 defense?
Also, if you are seeing legitimate negative resistance with plague fire, it may be because plague fire is reducing defense, not resistance. If they coded something weird in (which is entirely likely) then this could potentially stack weirdly with armor pen.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
From what I understand, the (damage) is what your hit does unmodified. That being said, your actual damage could be higher or lower depending on your target's damage reduction and any debuffs that may be on your target to cause them to take more damage. From what I can tell, your own personal "Armor Pen" stat cannot bring your enemy below 0% armor, but spell based debuffs, such as faerie fire, can.
That being said, Take a dummy for example that has 0% armor, if you attack for 100 damage and have 20% personal armor reduction, you won't do 120damage a hit, you'll do 100 and see no brackets. However, if someone comes up and debuffs the dummy, say for 6% (a la faerie fire), it seems that you will infact do 106 with (100) in brackets.
In the case of your screenshot, someone put a debuff on the target that increased your damage (or reduced their defense) by 1.01%. On my testing with a target dummy, I have seen a little shield debuff pop up on the dummy and it started taking 1.08% extra damage (my attacks went from roughly 126-130 to 136-141). Considering in each of our cases it was only JUST over 1%, I don't think it was faerie fire, but I really don't know enough about other classes to determine what skill it actually was.
Either way, there is something that allows us to reduce target armor below 0%, but it's not our own personal Armor Pen.
TL;DR: X(y), x=modified(buffed or debuffed), y= unmodified
That may be why Spell based debuffs can actually reduce it below 0%, because they are reducing their def rather than ignoring their DR. But, it still doesn't make 100% sense. It would have to be that Armor Pen is calculated before def reduction meaning that from 15%, with 15% AR you would ignore all 15%, but by reducing their def it brings them below 0%? It's a bit sticky, I am not sure where to go with it.
Other than that, I think Armor Pen still comes into play because these debuffs don't reduce AC, which adds DR as well.
For others who may need more information on that statement, Defense is, of course, not the same as Damage Resistance. it increases your damage resistance, but it is not damage resistance alone. Damage Resistance is AC + Def, where a certain amount of each equates to a percentage of Damage Resistance From what I read about Plaguefire it says "Reduces targets defense" where as Armor Pen says "Ignores percentage of damage resistance".
That being said, for me, at level 17, 100def is roughly 5% Damage Resistance plus my 4 AC (2%) puts me at 7% total Damage Resistance. Place 3 stacks of greater plaguefire on me, and you have only reduced my DR by 2.28% (45% of the 5% granted by Defense) rather than 45% of my total DR. So even if you dropped my Def to 0, which may not be possible unless they all stack to 100%+ before modifying my DR (IE, 100-45%-55% doesnt equal 0% but 100-100% does) I would still have my 2% from AC that is untouched by those debuffs. Who knows if enemies have AC as well, and if they do then that's where Armor Pen really comes into play.
Upon further testing it seems there is no need to fear this. It appears the armor pen stat is the first thing applied when determining the damage. Using wicked reminder, i was able to push mobs into negative resistances with just one stack (which is around 4%) despite them having around 15% damage resistance. This means armor penetration on gear ALWAYS gets factored in first, meaning things like wicked reminder (assuming other debuffs are mathed the same way) do not greatly devalue armor pen. (They still devalue each other somewhat, as going from 30 to 0 is a greater % increase in damage than going from 0 to -30.)
Edit: also be sure to calc out how weapon damage interacts.
Uhhh.. what? Star Trek Online? Or what exactly is STO? A link would be appreciated if you are going to mention it. Also, stat weights and diminishing returns were mentioned, maybe you missed them. Previously mentioned in the posts are things such as "at 1200 Armor Pen my percentage is 12.x%" that means that around 1200 it is 100 per 1% and the OP mentioned that when over 2k it is 125 per 1%. Those are diminishing returns, and they have been mentioned and taking into account.
How does critical help lashing blade from stealth? It is an automatic critical, right?
If you plan on being a one trick pony, then yes that is correct. In that case, it is a lot easier to cater your stats to one ability and this particular one, for a hit from stealth, wouldn't need any crit rating. What you will want to do is figure out what damage your attack does. For arguments sake, assume your Lashing Blade does 10000 and a player has 20% DR, that would mean only 8000 damage is going to hit them. For every 1% of armor pen you will be doing 100 extra damage, 8100 in this case. Unfortunately, according to the numbers in the original post, in order to hit for 8100 via power you would need to increase your base damage to 10125 which would take roughly 2232 points to equate to that same 100 extra damage that Armor Pen provided for only 125 points. Even straight extra damage would require 1.25% to equate the 1% of armor pen in this case.
But, alas, Armor Pen is only good until it reduces the targets resistance to 0%, after that it's worthless. Thankfully, you can easily stack it above 20% for a little bit of a cushion again those higher armored players in PVP and then stack power after that. Or, as Coffee mentioned, there are some stats such as recovery that may be very interesting and better than power.
Edit: Actually, the amount of power you would need also depends on your STR modifier and CA modifier of course. I think the idea is still that you would need a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton of power, regardless. Even with a total modifier of 30%, you'd need still need ~96 damage from power which is 1714. A lot better than 2232, but still up there.
I did some looking into this.
My rogue is 54 atm. So I don't have the final answer yet.
But some thoughts.
power is indeed linear. I'm not sure if the rating changes with level yet. But it does not change with power. there is no curve.
naked, 130 power listed 5.2 damage bonus. .04 damage per point of power.
just daggers. 1442 power listed 57.5 damage bonus. .0398 damage per point of power. (sly flourish 657-770)
gear. 2027 power listed 81.1 damage bonus. .04 damage per point of power. 687-801 sly.
2212 power, 88.5 damage bonus. .04 damage per point of power. 697-810 sly.
Note, sly flourish is increasing at a higher rate then the damage bonus is. 57.5-88.5 is 31 damage change, while 657-770(713.5) to 697-810(753.5) is 40 damage change. 30% higher.
I am not sure if its my 17% str, 20% skill, or 10% feat bonus, causing this. or all 3. possibly 20% skill+10% feat for 30%.
.04 damage per point of power at level 54.
crit rating is a curve.
507 crit rating =4.4% crit. or .0087 per.
1003 crit rating =8.4% crit. or .00837 per
1512 =11.6% crit. or .00767 per
1751 =12.8% crit, or .0073 per.
The more crit I add, the less crit chance I get per. the rate is still going strong at this level of crit though.
The next question is how do these relate.
1% crit would need approximately 140 crit rating for me at this point.
1% crit would be .75% damage increase. (note,this is ignoring the rest of the crit.)
.75% of 753.5 is 5.65 damage. (this is also ignoring the rest of the crit)
5.65/.04 is 141 power
141 power is about equal to 140 crit rating for me currently.
Additional crit severity increases crit value. additional crit chance decreases crit value vs power.
to get the final answer you will need to complete the formula, including the damage bonus, and total crit chances. then compare.
Level 60 Elite Golems.
It appears 15% is not enough for level 60 elites, i'll increase it slightly and see where the sweet spot is.
You can answer how much you need with simple math, IE Damage Done divided by total damage possible (15730/16915) minus 1 tells me that you are off by 7%. Now, are you sure there were no other def reduction debuffs? This would make those numbers skewed, meaning that you'd be off by 7% with those same buffs and would truthfully need more. Let us know what you find, 22% for "Heavily Armored" mobs, such as golems.'
Edit: Wow, don't know what this changes.. But I just did the math for your bleed damage and that is actually being reduced by 22% where as all the other attacks are only reduced by 7%(22%-15%). Now, this means one of two things. Either, Armor Pen does not reduce bleed resistance, or their bleed resistance is roughly 37%. However, considering that it is too coincidental that the bleed is being reduced by 22%, and their innate damage resistance is actually 22%, I would venture to guess that Armor Pen does not affect bleed resistances.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
Not necessarily. Who knows if skills like Wicked Reminder actually stack with other classes' DR reduction abilities, or even other rogues. The difference between this game and... another game I shall not mention... is that in that other game we have a full understanding of coefficients, stacks, returns, and all of that. Sadly, it's all trial and error here. I wish they would provide more information for us -_-.
Anyways, until we can confirm stacking DR reductions from abilities, Armor Pen is at least worth stacking to the point where itself plus Wicked Reminder (if you use it) would equate to no DR on the target. Remember, things like Plaguefire and Faerie Fire (that reduce Defense rather than DR) provide benefits even if you reduce a target to 0% DR.
I already mentioned that wicked reminder effectively lowers the 0 % "cap" and armor pen from gear is applied first. Not sure if other classes debuffs behave similarly.
Also, at no point did I say I would have a perfect working spreadsheet (Have fun predicting recovery with every skill set layout since baseline AP generation is not shown and you don't ever use every single encounter on cooldown), everyone knows each stat will have a breakpoint where stacking another stat will give higher yields.
The point of this thread is to reveal and discuss HOW EACH STAT WORKS, WHAT IT AFFECTS ETC AS STATED IN THE ORIGINAL POST.
Do you reckon forum feedback is being read in this game? if so, i will start a thread with a list of known bugs and will only erase them from OP once they are fixed.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
Some more information that you may like to know, in a Storming the Keep Skirmish, my bleed was actually doing more damage than it's baseline on the final boss. As in, in the case of damage numbers shown as X(Y), X > Y. I only have 1% Armor Pen so I know it wasn't from my stats, and I don't have Wicked Reminder, so there has to be something that actually reduces enemy defense/resistance. That may at least isolate the bug to only being our own Armor Pen, since other peoples debuffs seem to still affect our bleed. Unless, of course, that boss has no DR or he's just a sadomasochist in pirate garb.