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Honest Question Pertaining "P2W"

jmerithewjmerithew Member Posts: 137 Bounty Hunter
edited May 2013 in General Discussion (PC)
I'm pretty new to the game, but the biggest draw for me has been the amazing press that this has probably the best F2P cash shop around and it's not "Pay to Win" at all. Today was the first day that I got some Astral Diamonds, so I mosied on over to the Astral Diamond vendor and noticed he sells epic gear. So my question is this, since you can convert Zen to Astral Diamonds, and then use those diamonds to buy epics, how is that not "Pay to Win"? Again let me state that I am very new, so I may be missing something, but that just baffles me a little.
Post edited by jmerithew on
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    telenfuimetelenfuime Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    The definition of Pay2Win is that items that give an in game advantage are available only for real cash.

    AD are farmed in game so those epics are certainly not P2W they are "Pay to grind less".
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    morbicmorbic Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Pay to Win generally refers to items in the zen shop being epic items and only available to players who pay real money for said currency. The fact that the system is based around astral diamonds which can be earned by anybody in-game means that the game is technically not pay to win. Having items like that on the astral diamond vendor and elsewhere also helps power the Zen/Astral Diamond exchange rates for those trying to buy Zen for options only available there.
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    jedizalmjedizalm Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Or pay to be lazy and impatient. But everything in this game can be bought by simply grinding long enough.
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    jipatsujipatsu Member Posts: 94
    edited May 2013
    How about wondering the other way that. How is that pay to win? You can't use the gear until you are lvl 60, and by the time you hit lvl 60, you ought to have enough astral diamonds to buy epic gear from the auction house assuming that you did save up for it.

    I see it more like, pay to save time, or pay to skip grinding. I do not see what you would win in PvE? :)
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    pheenix123pheenix123 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I just sold a Main hand epic weapon i found in a dungeon delves chest in a blue tier dungeon for 800k+ AD.. that equals about 2k ZEN.. and it wasnt very hard to get
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    forumalterforumalter Member Posts: 34
    edited May 2013
    This is pay-2-win no matter how many fanboys preach 'its all free'.
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    arathnirarathnir Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    forumalter wrote: »
    This is pay-2-win no matter how many fanboys preach 'its all free'.

    Please explain further?
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    aullah12aullah12 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 132 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Its pay to win, cause you can get the BEST GEAR IN THE GAME if you pay. Period.
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    jedizalmjedizalm Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    aullah12 wrote: »
    Its pay to win, cause you can get the BEST GEAR IN THE GAME if you pay. Period.

    I didnt realize that I couldnt get the best gear in the game without paying for it. I Was under the assumption that I could farm and get the gear. Is this not true? Where in the cash shop is the gear section that you can only buy with Zen that wasnt traded for with AD?
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    aullah12aullah12 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 132 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    jedizalm wrote: »
    I didnt realize that I couldnt get the best gear in the game without paying for it. I Was under the assumption that I could farm and get the gear. Is this not true? Where in the cash shop is the gear section that you can only buy with Zen that wasnt traded for with AD?

    Irrelevant. You can buy it. That is what matters.
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    morbicmorbic Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    So from your statement the game would stop being pay to win if the best gear from Epic dungeons was changed to character bound?
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    telenfuimetelenfuime Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    aullah12 wrote: »
    Irrelevant. You can buy it. That is what matters.

    Irrelevant. You can get it without buying anything. That is what matters.
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    nornsavantnornsavant Member Posts: 311 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    This game is entirely P2W IF:

    You engage in PVP below maximum level and gear spec
    You care what gear other people have
    You want to raid with an elite optimized guild
    You want other people in the game to think that you are cool on sight

    If the above things are true you can achieve those things with cash. You can also achieve them with enough game time but the difference between eth two is enough to make on look ridiculous next to the other. It’s a bit like saying that you can change the rotation of the planet by jumping. While technically true, it’s also comedic.

    There may have been a time when seeing a person decked out in epic equipment told you something about that person; that they put in the time and effort, learned the game and or had the skill to achieve it. Now it could just as well be the product of a decent credit score.

    Now there is no current way to purchase skill with the things that one may buy in the various markets. So an interesting mechanic will be the influx of scrubs to the various incoming elite rading guilds. With only gearscore to tell, how delicious will be the howl of frustration as a creditcard healer tries to be DPS or the paypal tank decides to ragequit.

    But if you just want a nice casual game with some interesting content and some people to talk to (don’t use Zone). Then this is a decent game for free.

    I recommend the foundry, no creativity tax… yet.
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    arathnirarathnir Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    aullah12 wrote: »
    Its pay to win, cause you can get the BEST GEAR IN THE GAME if you pay. Period.

    First of all, as people stated, it's Pay 2 spend less time grinding. You can get Zen from not paying, but still I get the point of "Win" in that sense.
    But lets take a look at the gear you get from the Zen shop.
    We have no Equipment AKA no Gear, so no T3 items there = Not the BEST GEAR IN THE GAME.
    We can see that you can get the preservation wards which you also can get from the Coffer of Wonderous Augmentation which you can get from signing in to the game for 7 consecutive days.

    So where exactly do you get the BEST GEAR IN THE GAME from paying money? Because I sure can't find it.
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    jedizalmjedizalm Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    telenfuime wrote: »
    Irrelevant. You can get it without buying anything. That is what matters.

    This. I never spent a penny in this game, but I got all the best gear from the PvP stuff in the game. I win, but never paid, so how is it pay to win again?

    *disclaimer* I dont actually own any of the PvP stuff, as I dont do PvP. This was a redundant example.
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    oxydumoxydum Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    In my opinion they have a pretty good cash shop right now. Those complaining about the cash shop are ignoring the fact that all the content is given for free. You can buy minor indirect enhancements but the power gap is quite bearable.
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    aullah12aullah12 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 132 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    morbic wrote: »
    So from your statement the game would stop being pay to win if the best gear from Epic dungeons was changed to character bound?

    Yes.
    Exactly.
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    aullah12aullah12 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 132 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    arathnir wrote: »
    First of all, as people stated, it's Pay 2 spend less time grinding. You can get Zen from not paying, but still I get the point of "Win" in that sense.
    But lets take a look at the gear you get from the Zen shop.
    We have no Equipment AKA no Gear, so no T3 items there = Not the BEST GEAR IN THE GAME.
    We can see that you can get the preservation wards which you also can get from the Coffer of Wonderous Augmentation which you can get from signing in to the game for 7 consecutive days.

    So where exactly do you get the BEST GEAR IN THE GAME from paying money? Because I sure can't find it.

    Dont be stupid.
    You buy ZEN, exchange to diamond and buy item.
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    lokaidraxmartislokaidraxmartis Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    telenfuime wrote: »
    The definition of Pay2Win is that items that give an in game advantage are available only for real cash.

    AD are farmed in game so those epics are certainly not P2W they are "Pay to grind less".

    it has different meanings to different people... is no definitive term. Alot of us feel any ability to buy power is pay 2 win, you are paying to win the game rather then earning it.

    All of that said... even if buying power isnt p2w, wards are... in order to get the best enchants in game, to be able to clear end game content YOU need wards to get the final rank. With out wards you have less then a percent chance of success... and you will not be getting your enchants. Can get 1 ward every 7 days by chance... and could convert AD into zen sure, but you'd need something like 391k AD for 1 ward... and that can be a daunting amount to get with out ninja looting or a solid guild willing to give you epics to sell.

    Entire argument that you can play this game free stands on AH sales, getting epics you dont need/want and selling them for astounding amounts of AD. Personally i wonder what happens when people have all there epics, and no more willing to spend $$$ on AD...

    To the OP i am with you on this i am pretty much against whole boe epics, and buying them off the AH it sort of destroys whole idea of progression and acquiring gear... when you can just buy it.
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    jedizalmjedizalm Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    aullah12 wrote: »
    Dont be stupid.
    You buy ZEN, exchange to diamond and buy item.

    You can also go to the dungeon and kill the bosses and get them. Is that also pay to win?
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    jmerithewjmerithew Member Posts: 137 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    telenfuime wrote: »
    The definition of Pay2Win is that items that give an in game advantage are available only for real cash.

    AD are farmed in game so those epics are certainly not P2W they are "Pay to grind less".
    Thank you for the definition, mine was incorrect. I think my problem is this is the first true Free 2 Play game that I have played. All the other one's I have tried were sub based games turned Free 2 Play, and in alot of those situations I heard Pay2Win tossed around for this exact scenario. While I don't fully agree with top tier items being sellable, I will avoid calling the game P2W from now on.
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    grndmastergrndmaster Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    By that logic, pretty much every single game out there is p2w. Name an MMO that you couldnt just pay a group of people to get the best/rarest gear out there. There are groups in WoW that regularly carry people through end game raids for money, does that make WoW all the sudden a p2w game?

    p2w means getting things that can ONLY and i repeat ONLY be bought with real money. If they had a magic cap in the zen store that give +1000 to all stats, THAT is p2w
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    jedizalmjedizalm Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    grndmaster wrote: »
    By that logic, pretty much every single game out there is p2w. Name an MMO that you couldnt just pay a group of people to get the best/rarest gear out there. There are groups in WoW that regularly carry people through end game raids for money, does that make WoW all the sudden a p2w game?

    p2w means getting things that can ONLY and i repeat ONLY be bought with real money. If they had a magic cap in the zen store that give +1000 to all stats, THAT is p2w

    Not even then, since anyone could buy it....they would just have to sell their AD for Zen and they could buy it. This game CANNOT be pay to win, unless there is an item you can buy outside the Zen shop, like an epic item from a founder pack that cant be bought with Zen or earned in game. THAT would make it p2w, but anything that can be bought with Zen cannot be considered p2w
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    aullah12aullah12 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 132 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    We can argue about the definition of P2W but the fact stays... you can buy best gear with money. The game does not reward you for the time you put in it.
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    the1tiggletthe1tigglet Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 1
    edited May 2013
    jmerithew wrote: »
    I'm pretty new to the game, but the biggest draw for me has been the amazing press that this has probably the best F2P cash shop around and it's not "Pay to Win" at all. Today was the first day that I got some Astral Diamonds, so I mosied on over to the Astral Diamond vendor and noticed he sells epic gear. So my question is this, since you can convert Zen to Astral Diamonds, and then use those diamonds to buy epics, how is that not "Pay to Win"? Again let me state that I am very new, so I may be missing something, but that just baffles me a little.

    Because that epic gear doesn't have the best stats on them. The best stats come from the dungeon runs, just talk to the broker while wearing the epic gear and it will tell you just that.

    Pay to Win is where you have to buy the gear in order to progress and there's no in game gear that's equivalent. DDO and Allods online were like this they had gear only available in the store for real money which was the only way to progress end game and it was better then any in game item.
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    jedizalmjedizalm Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    aullah12 wrote: »
    We can argue about the definition of P2W but the fact stays... you can buy best gear with money. The game does not reward you for the time you put in it.

    Fact, the game does allow you to process your real world money into Zen, which can then be traded to other players for AD, and you can then use that AD to buy the best gear in the game.

    Not a fact, the game does not reward you for your time spent in it. If you grind and do dailies and dungeons and such, you can earn AD to buy items or sell for Zen. You can do PvP over and over and buy special end game gear. You can complete end game epic dungeons and get end game gear without buying anything with real world money.
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    lokaidraxmartislokaidraxmartis Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    grndmaster wrote: »
    By that logic, pretty much every single game out there is p2w. Name an MMO that you couldnt just pay a group of people to get the best/rarest gear out there. There are groups in WoW that regularly carry people through end game raids for money, does that make WoW all the sudden a p2w game?

    p2w means getting things that can ONLY and i repeat ONLY be bought with real money. If they had a magic cap in the zen store that give +1000 to all stats, THAT is p2w

    No because the company doesnt facilitate it, and no because they still have to earn it they are still running the content even if carried. We have a company here is trying to profit off of this sort of conduct and making no atempt to deny that fact. Plus i like how everyone just ignores whole ward issue lol...
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