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Knockdowns/Knockbacks need to be Nerfed or Removed from PvP
hibbleton
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 33
Title says it all. Some people may recognize me from my level 1-30 Trickster Rogue write-up when the game first came into Close Beta Weekend testing, and since then I have played the class extensively. What Rogues bring to PvP is either high burst on a single target (which is actually almost nil due to the plethora of teleports the other classes have) or utility such as Daze and Defense Weakening. We have no actual hard CC and are extremely easy to peel, which is counter-intuitive to a class that has to be in the face of the opponent to do anything.
But now let's look at GWF/GF, specifically, who have so many knockdowns/knockbacks that your character can actually do nothing. If you have 2 GWF/GF on you, you get to enjoy sitting there slowly dying without getting to play your character. What is the one fundamental thing required for a game to be enjoyable? Being able to PLAY it. If I try to Stealth and kill the Cleric or Control Wizard, I get immediately At-Will charged by a GF and enjoy the next 10-15 seconds of not even touching my keyboard, because these 2 effects have no DR in PvP. Even if I try to dodge roll away, a knockdown can interrupt my roll (even if I am half-way through the animation) and puts my right back in kill range of the class.
I am perfectly okay with Knockdowns/Knockbacks being in the game, because it makes sense to charge your opponent to the ground, but without a DR any 5v5 team that is 3/5 GWF/GF will dominate PvP right now simply because the enemy team doesn't get to play their characters due to all the CC going out (and that is the ONLY CC they provide, it's mind boggling).
Perhaps it is the design of my class to be able to be bounced around the map like a rag doll without any counter play, but it just isn't fun not being able to play for 15+ seconds.
And I know people will probably come in and say "well if 3 Trickster Rogues get on me, I'm dead!" That's grand and all, but those 3 Trickster Rogues provide no hard CC, and can easily be peeled by 3 GWF/GF if your team isn't dumb and stays relatively close to each other. But when 2/3 GWF/GF charge a target, there really isn't much your team can do because you all can be knocked down with no DR, and watch as your teammates die. Not only that, but if you attempt to peel for your teammates, you get met with the ability of the GF to block for 5+ seconds.
I mean, even CW have a FOUR SECOND knockdown. Since you can battle rez in PvP currently, if you manage to kill people on the enemy team, you get met with FOUR WHOLE SECONDS of pure CC, at which point every single person can be revived. That is an insane tactic that is used by almost all premade teams I have come across.
A team composed of 3 GWF/GF and 2 Control Wizards cannot possibly lose. 25+ seconds of AoE knockdown with no DR is too strong of a CC to even attempt to tackle head-to-head with a group composed of 1 of each class, or 2 of one class and the rest a mix.
But now let's look at GWF/GF, specifically, who have so many knockdowns/knockbacks that your character can actually do nothing. If you have 2 GWF/GF on you, you get to enjoy sitting there slowly dying without getting to play your character. What is the one fundamental thing required for a game to be enjoyable? Being able to PLAY it. If I try to Stealth and kill the Cleric or Control Wizard, I get immediately At-Will charged by a GF and enjoy the next 10-15 seconds of not even touching my keyboard, because these 2 effects have no DR in PvP. Even if I try to dodge roll away, a knockdown can interrupt my roll (even if I am half-way through the animation) and puts my right back in kill range of the class.
I am perfectly okay with Knockdowns/Knockbacks being in the game, because it makes sense to charge your opponent to the ground, but without a DR any 5v5 team that is 3/5 GWF/GF will dominate PvP right now simply because the enemy team doesn't get to play their characters due to all the CC going out (and that is the ONLY CC they provide, it's mind boggling).
Perhaps it is the design of my class to be able to be bounced around the map like a rag doll without any counter play, but it just isn't fun not being able to play for 15+ seconds.
And I know people will probably come in and say "well if 3 Trickster Rogues get on me, I'm dead!" That's grand and all, but those 3 Trickster Rogues provide no hard CC, and can easily be peeled by 3 GWF/GF if your team isn't dumb and stays relatively close to each other. But when 2/3 GWF/GF charge a target, there really isn't much your team can do because you all can be knocked down with no DR, and watch as your teammates die. Not only that, but if you attempt to peel for your teammates, you get met with the ability of the GF to block for 5+ seconds.
I mean, even CW have a FOUR SECOND knockdown. Since you can battle rez in PvP currently, if you manage to kill people on the enemy team, you get met with FOUR WHOLE SECONDS of pure CC, at which point every single person can be revived. That is an insane tactic that is used by almost all premade teams I have come across.
A team composed of 3 GWF/GF and 2 Control Wizards cannot possibly lose. 25+ seconds of AoE knockdown with no DR is too strong of a CC to even attempt to tackle head-to-head with a group composed of 1 of each class, or 2 of one class and the rest a mix.
Post edited by hibbleton on
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The problem you are speaking of seems to be more about premades verses pugs.
a rogue...whining about all the other classes being overpowered.
BUAHAHAHA
you're either in denial, undergeared, or not very skilled.
Are you going to quit when they nerf rogues? I'd think taking about 25% of their survivability away is good.
There's a difference between 5 people focusing down 1 target with damage, and 5 people being able to lay down over 15 seconds of knockdown CC on an entire party due to that specific effect not having any DR.
I think the same thing when a Rogue dailies me for 34k.
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Oh my mistake. I think the same thing when a Rogue uses smokescreen then dailies me for 34k since I can't dodge/block/doanythingatallbutslowlywalkaway.
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Shocking Execution requires you to be <20% health. It is an Execute for a reason. Luckily, a Rogue can't do that if you lay CC on top of him (which is insanely easy to do right now).
Ignoring the fact that Rogues have the strongest (un mitigated daze) cc.
You can pop your CC immunity then just go and one shot people with your daily.
Cmon now.
Impossible to Catch only makes us immune to Daze or effects that cause us to "lose control" of our character. It does NOT affect Knockups, Knockdowns, or Knockbacks, where is currently the most prevalent CC in the game (all classes but Rogues have them).
You can dodge roll out of Smoke Bomb. You can't dodge roll when laying on the ground, followed by being knocked 10+ yards back, and then immediately thrown in the air, due to the fact you can't act even when your character is standing up from such effects.
Knockdowns and Backs have always been toxic to PvP, due to the simple fact we should have to outskill our opponent, not have a combo that completely negates our opponent's ability to fight back.
Of course, vs 2 players we can be taken down easily enough if they don't just faceroll in, but our 1 vs 1 strength is incredible.
You are insane. What exactly was in your "1-30 Rogue write-up"? I think you need to go back and learn to play the class. You're doing something very wrong.
I agree as a rogue its very hard to stay in melee range because of all the knockbacks from fighters and wizards. Rogues do have high dps but thats useless when its so **** hard to land attacks. Our daily is very strong though.
Impossible to Catch is one of the worst designed spells in the game. The things it does stop are basically limited to only 4 or 5 spells in the game, and those spells aren't even that imperative to prevent.
It doesn't stop any of the CW spells, especially the vortex, choke, or ice pillar knockdown.
It doesn't stop Bull Charge.
It doesn't stop Smoke Bomb.
It doesn't stop any of the GWF knockdowns.
It doesn't stop Cleric Daze effects.
To assume Trickster Rogues aren't easy to peel means you guys are playing with really bad players. Seeing as how we HAVE to have stealth up to even get to the back line (GF don't, they have an At-Will charge that allows them to go wherever the hell they want), we are already at a disadvantage because that is how we do so much damage. Typically, you stealth to the backline, attempt to kill them, only to immediately either be tossed into the air by a CW, charged by a GF and tosses out of the capture circle of any node (and possibly permanently cc'd there, losing the node), or other such effect. A well-played GF can keep 2-3 people out of a node's capture point so easily it makes it just unfun to even fight.
These spells seriously need to DR together. As I said, I am perfectly okay with all these spells being in the game, because their practicality makes sense, but to be unable to play your character for over 15 seconds is not balanced at all, within any facet of the game.
Again, PvP should be about outskilling or out-statting your opponent. It should NOT be about who has more knockdowns/ups on their team (which is what it is currently), preventing the other team from competing.
This!
With DRs everthing will be fine, the currently possible CC Chains are anoying.
and if u got to lvl 60 well i guess there's something wrong with how you play coz i've seen a lot of rogue dealing a crit damage as high as 23k and can do it perfectly even using all my knockdown and stun skills with my GWF ( I'm talking about an unexpected 1 on 1 in pvp room with a rogue here) I know there are a lot of exploits/bugs and unbalance in pvp, what i dont get is that why complain on a class that is very agile, high dealing damage and a long duration of stealth? O.o
And there you have it, Yes, this is not Wow ..Loool
3 GWF and 2 CW?
ha.
Maybe when the GWF actually know what they're doing, but 9 time out of 10 3 GWF is a sure sign of losing - even in late levels. 3 CW on the other hand...
I really don't understand why people whine about rogue when we're so overpowered it makes me feel ashamed to play a CW. Really, I have yet to see anyone avoid my ice knife successfully. Can they even be dodged? Teaming up with 2 other CW and Pvp basically becomes a joke.
We get to use 4 skills, dodge 3 times, stun lock and cc the shizzal out of everyone and have amazing burst at late levels. Run with a cleric who knows how to CC and a CW basically becomes invincible until focus fired. Rogue gets 1 daily that can potentially 1 shot you, and that's it. A CW will kill you faster before a rogue can recharge his action bar.
The arena at the moment is all about capping node. You can have 3 GF and GWF stacking 1 node, but if your opponent is dumb enough to try and take you down, they deserve to lose. CW on the other hand can stun lock people while they are on their ways to cap point and Knock people out of circle.
And people wonder why there are so many afkers...
What are you supposed to do when pvp is so broken and you run into unfair matchup like that?
Because they have a skill that can potentially 1 shot people. Take that away and they're puddle. lashing strike has already been nerfed/tweaked and if you actually have problem dodging/running out of a lashing strike you srsly need to l2p. Agile? They get 2 dodges. Cleric and Wizard have 3. Their stealth doesn't give them any CC immunity besides that 1 skill that allow them to do so for 3 second, after that they're free meat. Being damaged also drain their stealth bar so all you really need to do is hit them with the tiniest attack and they'll be forced to stay visible at all times.
Did you even notice why the forum has been so quiet about rogue these past few days? Because more and more people started to realize how ridiculous easy they are to deal with.
They only ever become a threat when they gank you, and let's face it, what class doesn't become dangerous when it's 3 vs 1? Only scrub ever complains about rogue, and scrub has a way of quitting/ growing up.
If all I am doing is running away, it is immediately a 4v5 on nodes, which means we are probably going to lose. The amount of knockbacks in this game alone generally means the team with the most of them can easily take nodes, which is rather one-sided. As mentioned, a well played GF can solo take a node just by knocking people away from the node, then CC'ing them while they are knocked away. This is especially true in the map with the nodes on raised platforms, where a GF can kite you to the edge, then Bull Charge you straight off.
PvP is not balanced around 1v1, that would be a dumb philosophy to do things as (unlike what ellisdiwa thinks), and is currently looking like 5v5 is where they want it to be, so there needs to be a toning of the amount of AoE CC that is possible across all classes, even Smoke Bomb. I am okay if one class is the CC king (Control Wizard), but not when every class other than Rogues bring so much CC you can't even fight back against it.
And can we stop using Shocking Execution as a reason Rogues are deemed "op"? It is a move that is suppose to EXECUTE YOU. As in, KILL YOU NO MATTER WHAT. Stop acting like it crits for 20k+ when you are >20% health, because it doesn't. Rogues right now are very, very susceptible to CC (more than any class) and can easily be shut down, due to having to blow Stealth early to even get past the front line of a team (because GF/GWF lay down so much CC you really just can't walk up to the Cleric).
I'm not sure about GF/GWF laying down CC, but CC in general needs to be nerfed. There needs to be a DR system in placed to prevent stun locking for any class, and yes, even rogue and CW.
Also I do not know what GF is (I am sure it is not Girlfriend however I know they are capable of stun locking people) or GWF.
That smokescreen HAMSTER is the most ridiculous ability in pvp. Against 1 person fine, but to skill block every enemy player in the area is absolutely game breaking. Your argument is invalid.
Now, I've just told you some CW tactics, use that info to make a counter strategy. Your welcome.