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Group Queues: The Real Problem
jedizalm
Member Posts: 13 Arc User
So, you like dungeons and skirmishes, but you dont like getting into groups without a tank or cleric? Well I feel the same way...But I know the reason why. Kinda. At least, I MOSTLY know the reason why, as to what I have discussed at length with other players in the game. The issue isnt the automated grouping system...well ok, it is ONE of the issue, but not the MAIN issue. I know, by personal experience and journaled testimonies what the real issue is. Listed below are the few testimonies I've written down....er....typed down as well as the sound reasoning behind each one.
DISCLAIMER* Some of these testimonies can be taken as offensive, some are taken a bit out of context, and all are very biased. These are not my opinions, simply recorded testimonies from other players. I will not use these players character names OR handles to allow for some sort of anonymity.
1. PvE content is slower and usually harder, so I go do PvP instead.
2. Aggro and threat is broken, so the needed players (ie tank/cleric) dont play.
3. Clerics and healers are one of the rarest classes played anyway.
4. Clerics/Tanks are always blamed, even if its not their fault.
Now...All of these quotes were from players I met at random while doing dungeons as my cleric or Rogue. Some might have been from random partying in the field while questing. People always like to see a cleric out on the field doing stuff solo, so I get party invites all the time.
I can attest to some of these testimonies. Most are true, albeit a bit biased. None of these testimonies are from me. So, you want to blame the pugs system for putting you into a bad team, go right ahead. Its not always true though. Sometimes there isnt any cleric online wanting to do skirmishes or dungeons. Sometimes tanks would rather do PvP and win instead of PvE and lose. Maybe a couple of friends are more happy with foundries together as cleric and tank than dungeons. Either way, you might not always be placing the blame in the right place if you toss it at the pugs system first.
That doesnt mean the pugs system isnt totally at innocent. I mean, if someone leaves, there should be the availability to invite others or allow for more to queue in mid way through. But sometimes, when you get three queues with nothing but rogues and CW, dont blame the queue system automatically. Hell, sometimes you might even be able to blame yourself to some extent.
More testimonies from clerics and tanks who have posted.
DISCLAIMER* Some of these testimonies can be taken as offensive, some are taken a bit out of context, and all are very biased. These are not my opinions, simply recorded testimonies from other players. I will not use these players character names OR handles to allow for some sort of anonymity.
1. PvE content is slower and usually harder, so I go do PvP instead.
Yeah...I used to do dungeons, but after getting stuck into bad groups all the time, I just gave up on it. No one wants to sit around for 30 min looking for a group, just to see 4 rogues and a CW. At least in PvP, 4 rogues and a CW is a winning combo.
Why should I go do dungeons or skirmishes? They suck without proper builds, good players or a balanced team. Just come do PvP with us. All the cool kids are doing it.
Yeah, lets do a dungeon. We can party up, wait a half hour for pugs to give us a HAMSTER team, then we get about 45 mins into the damned thing and someone quits so we either have to start over, or struggle on till somone else quits. Or....OR we can wait 2 minutes, get into a PvP match and finish in about 10 minutes.
2. Aggro and threat is broken, so the needed players (ie tank/cleric) dont play.
I have a cleric, but I'm not gonna log in as him. I like my Rogue way more. I dont steal the entire team's aggro, I dont get chased around the entire fight, and I do way more damage.
My tank? Why? I can tank with my CW or GWF just as well, and do more dmg anyway. Its not like any of their stupid taunt skills work anyway.
I'm not pulling my cleric. My cleric sucks. I get aggro for just existing. I dont have to attack, I dont have to heal, I can stand in the back and do nothing, and the mobs come at me like I pissed in their mouth. At least as my CW, if the mobs come at me, I can knock them back, slow them down, and even freeze them. I'll stick with my CW over my cleric anyday.
Another team of DPS? Great. Let me just go get my cleric....wait, let me not, since I'll end up dying after stealing aggro from everyone in the team by healing myself. HAMSTER...I'd rather just leave and look for another group with someone stupid enough to be a cleric for me.
3. Clerics and healers are one of the rarest classes played anyway.
How often do you see people looking for a healer for a group run in a raid or dungeon? All the time. Healers are the least played but most important class in the game.
You ever played PW? How about WoW? You ever played any other MMO? Clerics are always needed in groups....well 95% of the time a cleric is needed in a group, but only about 20% of the games population play a cleric anyway. Everyone always wants to be a DPS rogue. They get that feeling of power when they kill, so the dont like being the one that stops to do the healing.
How often do you see cleric or tanks being played? Not very often. They play slow, are usually hard to play as, and arent the best at anything but surviving. Neither clerics nor tanks do the kind of dmg people want to see flash on their screen, and not nearly as fast as they want it.
People want to kill. Tanks dont kill. People want to do damage. Clerics heal. Simple psychology there.
4. Clerics/Tanks are always blamed, even if its not their fault.
I got blamed for a team wiping on a boss yesterday when I played my cleric. I got killed first because the team tunnel visioned on the boss and I had like 25 adds. Yeah, thats my fault.
I'm a tank. I get blamed for everything. Except not being able to heal. People like to think the tank can take the dmg, so they can take the blame as well. Those people have never played a tank.
Now...All of these quotes were from players I met at random while doing dungeons as my cleric or Rogue. Some might have been from random partying in the field while questing. People always like to see a cleric out on the field doing stuff solo, so I get party invites all the time.
I can attest to some of these testimonies. Most are true, albeit a bit biased. None of these testimonies are from me. So, you want to blame the pugs system for putting you into a bad team, go right ahead. Its not always true though. Sometimes there isnt any cleric online wanting to do skirmishes or dungeons. Sometimes tanks would rather do PvP and win instead of PvE and lose. Maybe a couple of friends are more happy with foundries together as cleric and tank than dungeons. Either way, you might not always be placing the blame in the right place if you toss it at the pugs system first.
That doesnt mean the pugs system isnt totally at innocent. I mean, if someone leaves, there should be the availability to invite others or allow for more to queue in mid way through. But sometimes, when you get three queues with nothing but rogues and CW, dont blame the queue system automatically. Hell, sometimes you might even be able to blame yourself to some extent.
More testimonies from clerics and tanks who have posted.
As a cleric, I still have to wait 30+ minutes in the dungeon finder queue to get a dungeon. My tank friend as the same issue. So I don't even know if the Dungeon finder works properly. I rolled a healer to get quick dungeons and I enjoy healing dungeon content.
Instead I get to wait 30-50 minutes in queue for someone to instant quit and then not even be able to do the final boss or complete your daily. If by some reason I get a 5 man party that sticks around (maybe once a day) then the dungeon encounters are so full of adds that I spend all day running around in circles. One to two heal spells and every add is stuck on me forever, even with the tanks and rogues trying their hardest to peel them off of me. Dungeoning simply isn't fun at all and its 90% of this game's PVE.
john242424 wrote: »I really loved playing the Cleric at first but now that I'm in the later content of the game for the first time I am annoyed. Running around like a chicken with my head cut off the entire dungeon with 100,000,000 adds on me isn't fun anymore. I have played as a healer in all other MMO's and I like a challenge and not just to sit back and be a heal bot but come on this is ridiculous.
I think I wrote this exact post for World of Warcraft three or four years ago... Common issue with the standard MMORPG tank, healer, DPS, DPS, DPS setup. Everyone plays DPS and few play healers with fewer still playing tanks. Tanks get a double wammy in that they often are the worst at PvP.
As to the tanking thing in MMOs - I have played a tank in a lot of MMOs (including being one and a raid leader in WoW for a long time in a "top tier" Guild on my server) and the threat mechanics in Neverwinter make me want to quit. There are so many annoying things with trying to tank and manage threat in this game that it's silly. I suspect one could probably figure out how to mostly manage threat in dungeons but it's so quirky and... obfuscated. Perhaps I am just not meant to be a tank in this game.
I don't know how much longer I'll play my tank. I don't think for much longer. I was thinking of giving a cleric a try but... I'm hesitant on that one as well.
The points being made about healers and tanks are valid. It's like the game wants to have that holy trinity system but decided halfway that everyone should be able to do damage. You don't need a tank to clear a dungeon, and if you're smart, you might not need a cleric to clear a dungeon too. Tanks especially are stuck in this middle ground where they can be useful but they're definitely not needed in a party. Tanks and clerics both need a threat fix, that's the main problem.
yukishiro3 wrote: »Fix threat and you fix most of the issues. Clerics wouldn't be so awful to play and GFs might actually have a reason to take up a group slot.
Right now playing my cleric in dungeon content is just not fun. I spend 90% of the game running around in large circles waiting for divine power sunburst to come off cooldown so I can knock the adds on me back again. The bosses themselves don't do any damage unless you're awful so there's no need to actually heal anyone else. It's just a big game of tag.
john242424 wrote: »A lot of people are shelving their Clerics now until this gets fixed. That is also the reason que times have gotten longer. The issue is just too frustrating and not fun as it is now. But be my guest, if you are frustrated with your tank times that by 100 and that is what you have with the broken Cleric.
therealdestian wrote: »Healing is harder than it should be, by far. Good luck trying to lock your heals on a dwarf tank with adds on him while there are also adds on YOU.
The aggro is absolutely nuts right now. I can respect the idea of making healing and tanking roles somewhat challenging, but this is historically bad for game balance when fewer players want to fill these roles to start with.
I have a 60 Cleric, so I AM the healer... who do I take along? Oh yeah, I don't, I just play my CW now.
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Instead I get to wait 30-50 minutes in queue for someone to instant quit and then not even be able to do the final boss or complete your daily. If by some reason I get a 5 man party that sticks around (maybe once a day) then the dungeon encounters are so full of adds that I spend all day running around in circles. One to two heal spells and every add is stuck on me forever, even with the tanks and rogues trying their hardest to peel them off of me. Dungeoning simply isn't fun at all and its 90% of this game's PVE.
Game is broken. I hate this whole 'soft launch' or 'open beta' excuse. It used to be companies didn't monetize off of betas so that they had incentives to get people paying for their product so they rushed to complete it. Now they call it soft launch, let everyone pay them, and not care about high customer turnover so they have little incentive to fix core aspects of their game in a reasonable time frame.
Game is still in beta for two reasons. One the code depicts the game being in beta.(not sure how that works, but someone else makes a very convincing argument on that front) and tw, not all the content for a full release is open yet. We are still missing the end game content, as well as two classes and one race, at least. So yeah, still in beta.
You're missing the point. Beta used to mean something to developers. Now its just an excuse to release broken content and still have players give them money. By the time this game "launches" most of its community will have left the game and a new community will be around (probably less overall players too). They don't care because they already got their money from the people who were going to pay anyway.
I am thinking about scrapping him and the zen I have purchased and starting over or moving on. Not fun at all anymore!
Game is not in beta it is released, cash shop and no character wipes. 'Beta' is just a defense they use against criticism.
Really? Whats gauntlegrym like? Is it a place with quests, like the graveyard, or just a dungeon you queue into?
And is the Ranger an archer type, or dual wield melee?
How does the Warlock work? Does he make a pact in the beginning? Which pacts are available?
What other Paragon paths are available for the classes? Are they like our current ones and offer whole new powers?
Just because its an incomplete game with new classes and zones incoming, does not make it beta. That would mean WoW is still in beta today.
The second you stay "no more character wipes" and start allowing people to pay you for in game items. Its released. Beta is just the defense vs. criticism that a lot of their systems are terribly implemented.
This is just silly. So because there's future content the game is in beta? So every MMORPG ever is perpetually in beta?
The game is in release.
NEVERWINTER IS STILL IN BETA
Wrong.
Are they accepting your money for content they are providing? That's the definition of a release.
Wrong. There is game content that is missing. That is the definition of a beta.
No, that is not the definition of a beta. People forget that there's another word after beta: "test."
"Beta" is short for "beta test."
Once you are in commercial operation, you are no longer in public testing.
no. it's not beta.
As to the tanking thing in MMOs - I have played a tank in a lot of MMOs (including being one and a raid leader in WoW for a long time in a "top tier" Guild on my server) and the threat mechanics in Neverwinter make me want to quit. There are so many annoying things with trying to tank and manage threat in this game that it's silly. I suspect one could probably figure out how to mostly manage threat in dungeons but it's so quirky and... obfuscated. Perhaps I am just not meant to be a tank in this game.
Although, I had to last, in the last dungeon I was in our cleric abandoned the group for whatever reason (he wasn't taking damage so that wasn't the reason) and we -still- killed the last boss.
This game has some serious group mechanic issues. If it wants to be a holy trinity type game then the healer and threat mechanics need to be a reflection of that. As it is now, they aren't. The threat mechanics are a total mess with all kinds of weird oddities existing in them.
I don't know how much longer I'll play my tank. I don't think for much longer. I was thinking of giving a cleric a try but... I'm hesitant on that one as well.
Dev posts this. Discussion Over, Neverwinter is still in Open Beta.
Dev posts this. Discussion Over, Neverwinter is still in Open Beta.
You can keep posting, but the devs say its still in beta, so its in beta,
And if the devs say the sun rises in the West?
The devs don't get to redefine industry standard terms. Or at least they don't get to do it and get taken seriously.
keep these testimonies coming, and I will be able to replace the in game quotes to forums quotes.
Well, the 'everyone needs to do damage' is a consequence of the 'everyone needs to be able to solo' problem. In theory, this could have been addressed through companions, but the companions have too many UI issues for that to be viable right now. (And it's not something they can go back and fix later.)
Right now playing my cleric in dungeon content is just not fun. I spend 90% of the game running around in large circles waiting for divine power sunburst to come off cooldown so I can knock the adds on me back again. The bosses themselves don't do any damage unless you're awful so there's no need to actually heal anyone else. It's just a big game of tag.
A lot of people are shelving their Clerics now until this gets fixed. That is also the reason que times have gotten longer. The issue is just too frustrating and not fun as it is now. But be my guest, if you are frustrated with your tank times that by 100 and that is what you have with the broken Cleric.
Like I said in my earlier post, I don't know what I'm going to do at this point. And I love this game:(
And I'm not doing the thing where I take off all my gear then put it back on in the dungeon to fix the issue....forget that.
Sad thing is they already turned down the Cleric threat in one of the beta's, they are aware of this issue either they didn't turn it down enough or I don't know what is going on. And this is like the millionth thread about this ****!
My thread is ACTUALLY about the party queue issues, its just the queue issues have to deal with cleric and tanks, not the system itself. That wokrs fine, you just get stuck with a full DPs team because no one is playing a cleric or tank.
its called an incomplete game, not beta. even PW boards show the game as a released title, not open beta.