For people saying it's overtuned for level 30s... it's a level 34 dungeon that you CAN enter at level 30.
If you're not a particularly skilled player, and you're also underlevelled... yes, it will be tough.
Think it's at 35 or 36 you are locked out from queueing this dungeon..
Yes, killing the adds is important sincethe dragon rarely moves and mainly dish out AOE which you can easily dodge.
1) What works is a DPS and tank sticks to the cleric and keeps the Adds off the cleric (mainly annoying Imps)
2) Hellfire magus, you ignore them since they respawn almost instantly
3) Special adds appear , everyone must help DPS them down . E.g The 4 legion devils, followed by the big devil with Eriynes(a pain since they heal themselves), etc
4) Don't be too earnest chasing adds and get clustered into a corner. Dragon's AOE attacks will melt everyone.
Anyway the subsequent dungeon Throne of Idris is much easier than this dungeon. The other Red dragon dungeon, Cavern of Karderrx(?) is also a pain.
Dude, if you don't like this Mad Dragon you are going to hate the giant brain boss! :rolleyes:
The adds are fine, it is the smack the moles(your party) tentacles that's a real pain. They deal ridiculous amount of damage and has a ton of health for you to DPS it down to ensure a temporary safe area to fight the adds(After the brain shields up).
The other Red dragon dungeon, Cavern of Karderrx(?) is also a pain.
My 1st group fought the red dragon for the best part of an hour on our 2nd attempt, but by the gods we slayed it! Given the choice of a boss that is faceroll and killed in about 5 minutes vs. the epicness of a long, difficult, but highly rewarding, boss, I'd pick the difficult boss anytime. I'm always going to remember these boss fights because they are difficult to win - and I like that!
:cool:PLAY TO WIN:cool:|"A light in the darkness."
Having some difficulty and scaling the difficulty is a good thing. When dealing with an MMORPG, you take the MM out of the equation when making content too difficult or scaling exponential. The name of the game here is not Neverwinter, it's the same name as the bottom line. MONEY! If Cryptic can't hold the interest of the most players, then they lose. The most money comes from those that like hairstyles, armor differences, and emotes.
If you want total hardcore, and the content of ANY game is not enough to challenge you, try doing the dungeons in teams or 2 or 3 people. Or if its really that easy for you, then solo it. If it's still too easy for you, then quit and look for something else.
At any rate, you will have to get used to MMORPG as massively multi-player, and not elitist/hardcore multi-player, so nerfing certain things and buffing others is what the developers must do.
I tried this boss too, but at level 30. Imps do too much damage, in my opinion. But i think is important to understand how to do this boss, position and tactic is really important (and low level dungeon don't prepare you for this). The jump from a nonsense aggro without any skill from "omg this boss rocks" is really surprising When we tried it we didn't died when he was still at 80%, btw. I can't say we almost did it but we lasted quite long.
0
banandan1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited May 2013
I dont ****ing get it.. when i wiped at that boss i was excited.. when i beat him it was ****ing great.. not that he was that hard but i really enjoyed the fight and saw potential in the game.
Dont give me **** about this being a leveling instance and it should require no brains.
You will still cry to make this game playable for a HAMSTER monkey at lvl 60 heroic dungeons.. you always do and you always win too.
Now, if somebody could just introduce handicap dungeons and make hard/heroic dungeons actually hard.
So basically, this game sucks because I want to tunnel vision boss and not deal with anything else, wahhhhhhhhhhhhhh? Thats what I got from OP, and all of his replies.
I dont ****ing get it.. when i wiped at that boss i was excited.. when i beat him it was ****ing great.. not that he was that hard but i really enjoyed the fight and saw potential in the game.
Dont give me **** about this being a leveling instance and it should require no brains.
You will still cry to make this game playable for a HAMSTER monkey at lvl 60 heroic dungeons.. you always do and you always win too.
Now, if somebody could just introduce handicap dungeons and make hard/heroic dungeons actually hard.
I'm pretty sure no one in this thread has said they want a dungeon that's easy enough to do with your eyes closed and your finger up your butt.
But there is a difference between "challenging" and "impossible for most pugs."
So basically, this game sucks because I want to tunnel vision boss and not deal with anything else, wahhhhhhhhhhhhhh? Thats what I got from OP, and all of his replies.
You're really cute.
0
doseoflaughterMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
Get better imo. If you have a GWF kick him for another tank on the adds. The damage lost is not enough to care.
GWF are your add killers....GWF will out DPS Trickster Rogues if they're doing their jobs right....I just finished a Lair of the Mad Dragon King and out damaged two rogues by about 100k because I was destroying add spawns....
0
doseoflaughterMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
So basically, this game sucks because I want to tunnel vision boss and not deal with anything else, wahhhhhhhhhhhhhh? Thats what I got from OP, and all of his replies.
No, but there should be a point where you can stop and burn the boss. No one is saying to remove the adds, but there needs to be a difference between the add phases and the boss burn phases, otherwise you have broken encounters. It's not difficult if you have constant add spawns, it's just annoying and shows that the devs had no clue how to make these encounters hard without having to add a constant stream of spawning adds to annoy the ever living **** out of their player base.
0
morphonaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 27Arc User
edited May 2013
As someone who killed the mad dragon in epic I don't see the issue.
I felt the encounter was perfect, there were add times and there were boss burn times, you just have to figure out how the encounter works. here are some tips:
1) there is always at least 1 hellfire wizard chick. kill 1 if there are 2 then dps boss while aoeing the imps.
2) when adds spawn kill them the first wave is 4 dragon warriors, really not that hard.
3) repeat phase 1. did I mention get out of red circles? kind of important.
4) the big add phase, okay so this is where we wiped twice, but finally got it down, the key here are the erin's (erinysys? we call them erins) they have a huge AOE heal, the key was to ahve the rogue and one wizard pull 1 erin off the group and cc/nuke it down, then repeat with erin #2. once those 2 are dead cleanup the rest of the adds and then back to phase 1.
the fight is really not that bad if you know what is going on and everyone does their job. it sounds like people are just expecting a aoe zergfest of adds while they burn the boss. the higher dungeons are not like epic CT people.
As someone who killed the mad dragon in epic I don't see the issue.
I felt the encounter was perfect, there were add times and there were boss burn times, you just have to figure out how the encounter works. here are some tips:
1) there is always at least 1 hellfire wizard chick. kill 1 if there are 2 then dps boss while aoeing the imps.
2) when adds spawn kill them the first wave is 4 dragon warriors, really not that hard.
3) repeat phase 1. did I mention get out of red circles? kind of important.
4) the big add phase, okay so this is where we wiped twice, but finally got it down, the key here are the erin's (erinysys? we call them erins) they have a huge AOE heal, the key was to ahve the rogue and one wizard pull 1 erin off the group and cc/nuke it down, then repeat with erin #2. once those 2 are dead cleanup the rest of the adds and then back to phase 1.
the fight is really not that bad if you know what is going on and everyone does their job. it sounds like people are just expecting a aoe zergfest of adds while they burn the boss. the higher dungeons are not like epic CT people.
You're overthinking mad dragon epic.
Ignore adds until 66%, stack and kill.
Ignore adds until 33%, stack and kill (focus Erinyes first because they'll get low to AoE and heal anyways)
Kill boss
You can't do this at low levels because the lack of healing tools available to clerics at 34. It is very telling when the "epic" version is easier than the low level version.
0
banandan1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited May 2013
What im getting from this thread is that people want to screw with things thats perfectly fine.. its not broken(i dont say anyone said that) and certainly not ****ing impossible, even for a pug. Its not an opinion, its true. If people are going to the forums because they wiped a few times in a pug to whine about actually having to think a (little) bit and maybe even type a few ideas in the chat to perform better and ultimately beat the boss.. well then **** me sideways.
No I think you missed the point. It's the leveling curve, or in this case the leveling cliff up at this stage. It's one thing to have challenges that gradually teach you to manage your abilities or skills as you level, another to slap you upside the face with it.
leveling dungeons shouldn't require vent.....they can be interesting, or a bit challenging, not require it. That's for max level.
I agree that the difficulty scaling seems to hit a big jump at this point especially if you're relying on the open queue and being assigned to random groups. I never did beat that one before out leveling it. And every fight consisting of adds after adds is just tiresome.
It's not even about the difficulty for me, the whole system is just super lazy. The whole endless pawn thing was already annoying in solo instances, that HAMSTER is just pure HAMSTER tbh. We tried it multiple times, but all we could try was kill the adds, but at some point they just overwhelm you and we barely did any damage to the dragon. it just drags on forever is is ZERO fun.
If that is the way the rest of the game is i definitely won't be playing it for a long time, is it really that hard to produce interesting boss fights that are not just zerg-fest, after all most other MMOs seem to manage that quite well.
If that is the way the rest of the game is i definitely won't be playing it for a long time, is it really that hard to produce interesting boss fights that are not just zerg-fest, after all most other MMOs seem to manage that quite well.
Add swarms do make bosses interesting though. They put pressure on players other than the tank, they force players to swap targets, they are a prime candidate for CC classes to shine, they give periods of the fight that are more intense than others (the 66% and 33% add swarm), and so forth.
While the bosses all generally share this add mechanic, most of them do their own things as well.
Other than TERA, there aren't many MMO's that have 5 mans that make you do all of this. Personally, I like that it's not just about "boss does a red circle and you have to get out of it" in leveling dungeons.
Some of the Tier 2 end bosses (Ice Giant) are quite challenging, due to the add swarms in combination with his own skills. I think it's pretty interesting trying to work out how to properly deal with everything getting thrown at you.
Add swarms do make bosses interesting though. They put pressure on players other than the tank, they force players to swap targets, they are a prime candidate for CC classes to shine, they give periods of the fight that are more intense than others (the 66% and 33% add swarm), and so forth.
While the bosses all generally share this add mechanic, most of them do their own things as well.
Other than TERA, there aren't many MMO's that have 5 mans that make you do all of this. Personally, I like that it's not just about "boss does a red circle and you have to get out of it" in leveling dungeons.
Some of the Tier 2 end bosses (Ice Giant) are quite challenging, due to the add swarms in combination with his own skills. I think it's pretty interesting trying to work out how to properly deal with everything getting thrown at you.
I am OK with having some of those encounters, but the game is stuffed full with them, basically every boss is of this type. The dragon itself is actually quite boring. Add on top that you often get non-ideal composition of the group and the content seems quite overtuned for a mid-level dungeon on the group-finder.
We just did the underscar part and many part feel more like diablo rather than a D&D game, just hordes of mobs everywhere. And when i read about how specific i will have to play my TR solo at later levels, i wonder why we even have all those abilities when the content is tuned in a way that only can be done in one spec anyway. There also seem to be quite alot of red-marker abilities that either have a very short notice or wrong range, because i get often hit by them when i am far outside of the mrked area or away from the mob in general, though this might be because of the 150+ latency we got here.
Add swarms do make bosses interesting though. They put pressure on players other than the tank, they force players to swap targets, they are a prime candidate for CC classes to shine, they give periods of the fight that are more intense than others (the 66% and 33% add swarm), and so forth.
Normal "que pugs" at lvl 30 dungeons dont have the gear or the skill to deal with a nonstop stream of adds. They either ingore them and wipe or dps them and ignore boss and wipe.
There is a BIG difference from "boss spawns some adds at certain points during the fight" to "boss spawns adds nonstop"
You either tank adds and burn boss or you burn adds fast and have some time after to dps boss. You can't have nonstop presure from both. Not at level 30 and surely not from a normal mode instance.
Normal "que pugs" at lvl 30 dungeons dont have the gear or the skill to deal with a nonstop stream of adds. They either ingore them and wipe or dps them and ignore boss and wipe.
There is a BIG difference from "boss spawns some adds at certain points during the fight" to "boss spawns adds nonstop"
You either tank adds and burn boss or you burn adds fast and have some time after to dps boss. You can't have nonstop presure from both. Not at level 30 and surely not from a normal mode instance.
Well, to follow up on my end, I have finally gotten my third character to 60 and thus far I have not had any issues in the queue dungeons. The challenge seems perfect, and the team I have been running with has handled the dungeons available at all levels rather well. During slow Guild times, I have been hopping in PUGs and even they have not had much of an issue. We get the occasional closed minded individual that insists it's impossible if we wipe so much as once, but that is easily cured by ditching that individual and re-queuing with someone else as a team.
A lot of what I see in this thread is "the game, the game, the game", however I have just observed by the gameplay I have experienced that it is the team, not the game, that needs to cooperate. I have only had one issue with one boss, and that was not a party queue dungeon, but a storyline where, yes, there were so many adds I could not solo him, so I popped out and grabbed a friend and we owned the guy. That proved there was nothing wrong with the boss, but with my strategy and I will strive to improve my tactics, because EVERY boss in the storyline can be easily done solo, and EVERY boss in the queue system for teams can be beaten with ease if even the SLIGHTEST bit of communication is used.
So my question to those having the most trouble is . . . are your groups even communicating? Or are they those PUG groups that just queue in, then silently shoot everything as if they are playing BF3 then silently leave the group the first time they die? It seems as if the Skirmishes have been a lot like that lately when I queue by myself, and I wonder if the dungeons are producing the same amount of silence and frustration.
Normal "que pugs" at lvl 30 dungeons dont have the gear or the skill to deal with a nonstop stream of adds. They either ingore them and wipe or dps them and ignore boss and wipe.
There is a BIG difference from "boss spawns some adds at certain points during the fight" to "boss spawns adds nonstop"
You either tank adds and burn boss or you burn adds fast and have some time after to dps boss. You can't have nonstop presure from both. Not at level 30 and surely not from a normal mode instance.
If you look at my previous posts in this thread I completely agree with you, I think the normal version of mad dragon is far too hard for a pug. If people want their hard content, it exists at the cap. My post was simply a response to that individual.
0
maebeknotMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 14Arc User
edited May 2013
I am really starting to hate dungeons. My experience with them from 30 to my current level 37 has not been enjoyable. First off I love a good challenge in a game. I played to many games that are face roll and they get boring fast. But I think that once you hit 30 there are several issues that are giving me a bad experience. First off I am a GF, pure tank/aggro spec. I can hold aggro on anything I want and if I start a fight I can hold aggro on **** near EVERYTHING (but they will kick my *** so its not something I try for).
1: Dungeons before level 30 are a cake walk. You don't even need your full group to burn through the place. I wouldn't be shocked that with some skill and the right pet one player of that level could do the end boss by themselves (given enough time).
1A. But then you hit level 30 and then it's a different story. Your party will breeze through the dungeon but then the boss shoots up in difficulty. (I wont go into whats wrong with this boss because I've only ran the place 3 times and finished it once).
2: In skirmishes and dungeons before level 30 you burn through the boss really fast. It because it's more effect to ignore adds and focus boss. Kill boss the adds disappear or you burn them fast. All of a sudden at level 30 this is not a viable strategy (I personally like it better this way. Why have adds if you can just ignore them? Might as well not have them).
2A: Your pugs don't want to focus adds when they spawn because they haven't had to before. Every run I've done since 30+ at least 1 person ignores adds even with multiply people telling them they can't.
2fix: When in level 30 dungeon boss room make a huge message on the players screen that says something along the lines of "Adds are a huge threat. Take them out first!" Not everyone will read or believe it but this will help most players transition into the idea that boss fights are not tank and spank. (In bad runs I've tried to tell people they need to focus adds. That the boss spawns adds a X HP markers and they didn't believe me)
3: I never seem to have enough pots. I can take a bunch but if I get a rough group I will have to burn a lot even with my healer pet out. If I don't get lucky enough to be group with a DC I'm going to need even more pots. The more you wipe the less pots you have for the next run.
3fix: Put a vendor with pots and kits by the last camp fire. I know some dungeons have some at start but that is a hell of a run. It's not like I can leave the dungeon and come back with pots. Even if I could then my whole team is waiting on me. Let me burn that gold for what it was meant for, consumables. I would gladly buy pots to my last silver if it would get my group through the dungeon.
4: 3 goes well into number 4. You can't leave the dungeon and come back. You can't invite people to a pug dungeon and you can not re-queue to pick up replacements for people that have rage quit.
4fix: Give us a way to re-queue to replace leavers, a way to teleport out and back into the dungeon to pick up people from chat and of course invite people to the group for the dungeon (even if you have level restrictions to prevent a level 60 from finishing a level 30 dungeon for their friends).
5: Not all classes are made equal. I don't see GWFs often but when I do I out DPS them every time by a good chunk (which is sad because like I said I pick every bit of tankiness I can before getting DPS). Now I've never played one and none of my friends play them. Yet I've read a lot on forums about "they suck" etc etc. Got unlucky my last run it was me and 4 DPS. 2 of the DPS were GWF. Right at the start we were at a disadvantage. This of course is the luck of the draw on who is in your team and not much we as players can do. Though as tank it is tempting now to leave and re-queue if I get more then 1 on next run.
5fix: I'm sure they will be balanced in the future so we just need to wait this one out.
6: Pets fall off hard after level 30. With no way to raise pets past level 15 they become useless in boss fights about half way through. When they die you can keep rezing them all day long but they will just die right away again. They aren't smart enough to avoid red stuff (god that really needs fixed). I could go on more about whats wrong with pets but I believe if those two issues were fixed it would be a whole lot better.
6fix: Up the pets AI just a little, a check to see if they are standing in red stuff or not and I'll be happy. Also when they finally let them scale higher.
7: People don't use the right pets or only have one. When I see someone using a tank pet in dungeon I already know that they are not the brightest one in the bunch. I can ask nicely for them to change. I only bother when we have no healer and people are dying I ask them to bring out healer pets. I receive no response and I see no change in the pets. Like I said early I can tank anything and pull mobs off anyone BUT tank pets. I get the desire to have tank pets in questing but I feel there is no need for them in dungeons if your tank is worth anything. Better off bringing a Striker, controller or healer pet.
7fix: People need to stop being so cheap with their gold. IMO after you get your mount, when you hit 4g you should buy your next pet (leaving some money for pots). If your pet is level caped and not the best pet for the situation why in the name of Jesus are you using that pet?
TL:DR There are many things with dungeons that are making them harder then they need to be. One of them is missing features like leaving dungeon and coming back, replacing leavers etc. Also there are issues with the player base being stupid or not learning fast enough. Honestly I DO NOT think they need to nerf the numbers but instead look at the big picture more.
yeah chartilifax is not scaled well at all for the "casual" crowd.
Ive had him down to 10% with pugs. and once you get too high level you have to go to Helms Hold manually to do the dungeon. No thanks why bother id rather level properly then.
Fail dungeon.
Agreed, this felt more like a heroic raid than a normal 5-man. Actually, it felt a lot like Sarth3D.
When the team fails it's often because the control wizard failed at controlling stuff, because if he doesn't do that properly the cleric can't heal and the tank and dps are overwhelmed quickly. I have seen many ok to good dps and tanks but not that many good wizards.
As the cleric player i often say "if you want heals please kill adds first", it's quite explicit and people know they have to do something if they want to succeed.
0
kromzorMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 2Arc User
Just spend 25minutes on chartilifax or whatever the last dragon bosses name is in the level 34 dungeon just to wipe at 20%.
2013.
Not having someone on Whelp duty.
Seriously, I don't get what your problem is, other than you're just bad at this or you getting stuck playing with other people who are. I'm not trying to be mean, but I was in a PUG dungeon yesterday playing as a Cleric with 2 GWF (lv 45+). I could not for the life of me get either of them to understand that I needed someone to peel mobs off of me when I got healing agro because I didn't like dying.
One of them even straight out told me to just buy potions; they're cheap he said (spoiler: I was already using them). This is the level of stupid that exists in the game currently. The only reason I didn't leave at that point was the need to finish the daily.
Anyway, if you thought that fight was "too hard" wait till you get to the Werewolf Boss.
0
kromzorMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 2Arc User
Agreed, this felt more like a heroic raid than a normal 5-man. Actually, it felt a lot like Sarth3D.
Which is a GOOD thing IMO.
Honestly, when I first saw that I was going to fight a DRAGON, a real DRAGON (not some shade or ghost) at like lv 30, I cried a little inside. Dragons SHOULD be epic, and big, and HOLY ****! But now i'm just gonna faceroll this HAMSTER green dragon? *sigh*
But then the fight started, and he kicked our asses, and then he did it again. And then people rage quit. And I felt so much better knowing how crazy the fight really was, and that even though I was already being given a Dragon to fight at the midpoint of the game, that at least he was a beast. He felt tough and threatening, like a Dragon should.
Don't change this fight, its do-able, even with a pug (how I beat it the first time, didn't even have a GF in group).
0
dixa1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
Seriously, I don't get what your problem is, other than you're just bad at this or you getting stuck playing with other people who are. I'm not trying to be mean, but I was in a PUG dungeon yesterday playing as a Cleric with 2 GWF (lv 45+). I could not for the life of me get either of them to understand that I needed someone to peel mobs off of me when I got healing agro because I didn't like dying.
One of them even straight out told me to just buy potions; they're cheap he said (spoiler: I was already using them). This is the level of stupid that exists in the game currently. The only reason I didn't leave at that point was the need to finish the daily.
Anyway, if you thought that fight was "too hard" wait till you get to the Werewolf Boss.
there is truth to this. by 34 a cw has maxed out arcane singularity and shield, although they won't be generating ap as fast as they will once they have enough paragon feats later in the game. this combo alone kills most of the adds for this encounter however there is a risk - the succubis (casters with wings) start to heal themselves and the boss if they take enough damage.
Comments
Think it's at 35 or 36 you are locked out from queueing this dungeon..
Yes, killing the adds is important sincethe dragon rarely moves and mainly dish out AOE which you can easily dodge.
1) What works is a DPS and tank sticks to the cleric and keeps the Adds off the cleric (mainly annoying Imps)
2) Hellfire magus, you ignore them since they respawn almost instantly
3) Special adds appear , everyone must help DPS them down . E.g The 4 legion devils, followed by the big devil with Eriynes(a pain since they heal themselves), etc
4) Don't be too earnest chasing adds and get clustered into a corner. Dragon's AOE attacks will melt everyone.
Anyway the subsequent dungeon Throne of Idris is much easier than this dungeon. The other Red dragon dungeon, Cavern of Karderrx(?) is also a pain.
The adds are fine, it is the smack the moles(your party) tentacles that's a real pain. They deal ridiculous amount of damage and has a ton of health for you to DPS it down to ensure a temporary safe area to fight the adds(After the brain shields up).
My 1st group fought the red dragon for the best part of an hour on our 2nd attempt, but by the gods we slayed it! Given the choice of a boss that is faceroll and killed in about 5 minutes vs. the epicness of a long, difficult, but highly rewarding, boss, I'd pick the difficult boss anytime. I'm always going to remember these boss fights because they are difficult to win - and I like that!
If you want total hardcore, and the content of ANY game is not enough to challenge you, try doing the dungeons in teams or 2 or 3 people. Or if its really that easy for you, then solo it. If it's still too easy for you, then quit and look for something else.
At any rate, you will have to get used to MMORPG as massively multi-player, and not elitist/hardcore multi-player, so nerfing certain things and buffing others is what the developers must do.
Dont give me **** about this being a leveling instance and it should require no brains.
You will still cry to make this game playable for a HAMSTER monkey at lvl 60 heroic dungeons.. you always do and you always win too.
Now, if somebody could just introduce handicap dungeons and make hard/heroic dungeons actually hard.
I'm pretty sure no one in this thread has said they want a dungeon that's easy enough to do with your eyes closed and your finger up your butt.
But there is a difference between "challenging" and "impossible for most pugs."
You're really cute.
GWF are your add killers....GWF will out DPS Trickster Rogues if they're doing their jobs right....I just finished a Lair of the Mad Dragon King and out damaged two rogues by about 100k because I was destroying add spawns....
No, but there should be a point where you can stop and burn the boss. No one is saying to remove the adds, but there needs to be a difference between the add phases and the boss burn phases, otherwise you have broken encounters. It's not difficult if you have constant add spawns, it's just annoying and shows that the devs had no clue how to make these encounters hard without having to add a constant stream of spawning adds to annoy the ever living **** out of their player base.
I felt the encounter was perfect, there were add times and there were boss burn times, you just have to figure out how the encounter works. here are some tips:
1) there is always at least 1 hellfire wizard chick. kill 1 if there are 2 then dps boss while aoeing the imps.
2) when adds spawn kill them the first wave is 4 dragon warriors, really not that hard.
3) repeat phase 1. did I mention get out of red circles? kind of important.
4) the big add phase, okay so this is where we wiped twice, but finally got it down, the key here are the erin's (erinysys? we call them erins) they have a huge AOE heal, the key was to ahve the rogue and one wizard pull 1 erin off the group and cc/nuke it down, then repeat with erin #2. once those 2 are dead cleanup the rest of the adds and then back to phase 1.
the fight is really not that bad if you know what is going on and everyone does their job. it sounds like people are just expecting a aoe zergfest of adds while they burn the boss. the higher dungeons are not like epic CT people.
You're overthinking mad dragon epic.
Ignore adds until 66%, stack and kill.
Ignore adds until 33%, stack and kill (focus Erinyes first because they'll get low to AoE and heal anyways)
Kill boss
You can't do this at low levels because the lack of healing tools available to clerics at 34. It is very telling when the "epic" version is easier than the low level version.
leveling dungeons shouldn't require vent.....they can be interesting, or a bit challenging, not require it. That's for max level.
It's not even about the difficulty for me, the whole system is just super lazy. The whole endless pawn thing was already annoying in solo instances, that HAMSTER is just pure HAMSTER tbh. We tried it multiple times, but all we could try was kill the adds, but at some point they just overwhelm you and we barely did any damage to the dragon. it just drags on forever is is ZERO fun.
If that is the way the rest of the game is i definitely won't be playing it for a long time, is it really that hard to produce interesting boss fights that are not just zerg-fest, after all most other MMOs seem to manage that quite well.
Add swarms do make bosses interesting though. They put pressure on players other than the tank, they force players to swap targets, they are a prime candidate for CC classes to shine, they give periods of the fight that are more intense than others (the 66% and 33% add swarm), and so forth.
While the bosses all generally share this add mechanic, most of them do their own things as well.
Other than TERA, there aren't many MMO's that have 5 mans that make you do all of this. Personally, I like that it's not just about "boss does a red circle and you have to get out of it" in leveling dungeons.
Some of the Tier 2 end bosses (Ice Giant) are quite challenging, due to the add swarms in combination with his own skills. I think it's pretty interesting trying to work out how to properly deal with everything getting thrown at you.
I am OK with having some of those encounters, but the game is stuffed full with them, basically every boss is of this type. The dragon itself is actually quite boring. Add on top that you often get non-ideal composition of the group and the content seems quite overtuned for a mid-level dungeon on the group-finder.
We just did the underscar part and many part feel more like diablo rather than a D&D game, just hordes of mobs everywhere. And when i read about how specific i will have to play my TR solo at later levels, i wonder why we even have all those abilities when the content is tuned in a way that only can be done in one spec anyway. There also seem to be quite alot of red-marker abilities that either have a very short notice or wrong range, because i get often hit by them when i am far outside of the mrked area or away from the mob in general, though this might be because of the 150+ latency we got here.
Normal "que pugs" at lvl 30 dungeons dont have the gear or the skill to deal with a nonstop stream of adds. They either ingore them and wipe or dps them and ignore boss and wipe.
There is a BIG difference from "boss spawns some adds at certain points during the fight" to "boss spawns adds nonstop"
You either tank adds and burn boss or you burn adds fast and have some time after to dps boss. You can't have nonstop presure from both. Not at level 30 and surely not from a normal mode instance.
Well, to follow up on my end, I have finally gotten my third character to 60 and thus far I have not had any issues in the queue dungeons. The challenge seems perfect, and the team I have been running with has handled the dungeons available at all levels rather well. During slow Guild times, I have been hopping in PUGs and even they have not had much of an issue. We get the occasional closed minded individual that insists it's impossible if we wipe so much as once, but that is easily cured by ditching that individual and re-queuing with someone else as a team.
A lot of what I see in this thread is "the game, the game, the game", however I have just observed by the gameplay I have experienced that it is the team, not the game, that needs to cooperate. I have only had one issue with one boss, and that was not a party queue dungeon, but a storyline where, yes, there were so many adds I could not solo him, so I popped out and grabbed a friend and we owned the guy. That proved there was nothing wrong with the boss, but with my strategy and I will strive to improve my tactics, because EVERY boss in the storyline can be easily done solo, and EVERY boss in the queue system for teams can be beaten with ease if even the SLIGHTEST bit of communication is used.
So my question to those having the most trouble is . . . are your groups even communicating? Or are they those PUG groups that just queue in, then silently shoot everything as if they are playing BF3 then silently leave the group the first time they die? It seems as if the Skirmishes have been a lot like that lately when I queue by myself, and I wonder if the dungeons are producing the same amount of silence and frustration.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If you look at my previous posts in this thread I completely agree with you, I think the normal version of mad dragon is far too hard for a pug. If people want their hard content, it exists at the cap. My post was simply a response to that individual.
1: Dungeons before level 30 are a cake walk. You don't even need your full group to burn through the place. I wouldn't be shocked that with some skill and the right pet one player of that level could do the end boss by themselves (given enough time).
1A. But then you hit level 30 and then it's a different story. Your party will breeze through the dungeon but then the boss shoots up in difficulty. (I wont go into whats wrong with this boss because I've only ran the place 3 times and finished it once).
2: In skirmishes and dungeons before level 30 you burn through the boss really fast. It because it's more effect to ignore adds and focus boss. Kill boss the adds disappear or you burn them fast. All of a sudden at level 30 this is not a viable strategy (I personally like it better this way. Why have adds if you can just ignore them? Might as well not have them).
2A: Your pugs don't want to focus adds when they spawn because they haven't had to before. Every run I've done since 30+ at least 1 person ignores adds even with multiply people telling them they can't.
2fix: When in level 30 dungeon boss room make a huge message on the players screen that says something along the lines of "Adds are a huge threat. Take them out first!" Not everyone will read or believe it but this will help most players transition into the idea that boss fights are not tank and spank. (In bad runs I've tried to tell people they need to focus adds. That the boss spawns adds a X HP markers and they didn't believe me)
3: I never seem to have enough pots. I can take a bunch but if I get a rough group I will have to burn a lot even with my healer pet out. If I don't get lucky enough to be group with a DC I'm going to need even more pots. The more you wipe the less pots you have for the next run.
3fix: Put a vendor with pots and kits by the last camp fire. I know some dungeons have some at start but that is a hell of a run. It's not like I can leave the dungeon and come back with pots. Even if I could then my whole team is waiting on me. Let me burn that gold for what it was meant for, consumables. I would gladly buy pots to my last silver if it would get my group through the dungeon.
4: 3 goes well into number 4. You can't leave the dungeon and come back. You can't invite people to a pug dungeon and you can not re-queue to pick up replacements for people that have rage quit.
4fix: Give us a way to re-queue to replace leavers, a way to teleport out and back into the dungeon to pick up people from chat and of course invite people to the group for the dungeon (even if you have level restrictions to prevent a level 60 from finishing a level 30 dungeon for their friends).
5: Not all classes are made equal. I don't see GWFs often but when I do I out DPS them every time by a good chunk (which is sad because like I said I pick every bit of tankiness I can before getting DPS). Now I've never played one and none of my friends play them. Yet I've read a lot on forums about "they suck" etc etc. Got unlucky my last run it was me and 4 DPS. 2 of the DPS were GWF. Right at the start we were at a disadvantage. This of course is the luck of the draw on who is in your team and not much we as players can do. Though as tank it is tempting now to leave and re-queue if I get more then 1 on next run.
5fix: I'm sure they will be balanced in the future so we just need to wait this one out.
6: Pets fall off hard after level 30. With no way to raise pets past level 15 they become useless in boss fights about half way through. When they die you can keep rezing them all day long but they will just die right away again. They aren't smart enough to avoid red stuff (god that really needs fixed). I could go on more about whats wrong with pets but I believe if those two issues were fixed it would be a whole lot better.
6fix: Up the pets AI just a little, a check to see if they are standing in red stuff or not and I'll be happy. Also when they finally let them scale higher.
7: People don't use the right pets or only have one. When I see someone using a tank pet in dungeon I already know that they are not the brightest one in the bunch. I can ask nicely for them to change. I only bother when we have no healer and people are dying I ask them to bring out healer pets. I receive no response and I see no change in the pets. Like I said early I can tank anything and pull mobs off anyone BUT tank pets. I get the desire to have tank pets in questing but I feel there is no need for them in dungeons if your tank is worth anything. Better off bringing a Striker, controller or healer pet.
7fix: People need to stop being so cheap with their gold. IMO after you get your mount, when you hit 4g you should buy your next pet (leaving some money for pots). If your pet is level caped and not the best pet for the situation why in the name of Jesus are you using that pet?
TL:DR There are many things with dungeons that are making them harder then they need to be. One of them is missing features like leaving dungeon and coming back, replacing leavers etc. Also there are issues with the player base being stupid or not learning fast enough. Honestly I DO NOT think they need to nerf the numbers but instead look at the big picture more.
Agreed, this felt more like a heroic raid than a normal 5-man. Actually, it felt a lot like Sarth3D.
As the cleric player i often say "if you want heals please kill adds first", it's quite explicit and people know they have to do something if they want to succeed.
2013.
Not having someone on Whelp duty.
Seriously, I don't get what your problem is, other than you're just bad at this or you getting stuck playing with other people who are. I'm not trying to be mean, but I was in a PUG dungeon yesterday playing as a Cleric with 2 GWF (lv 45+). I could not for the life of me get either of them to understand that I needed someone to peel mobs off of me when I got healing agro because I didn't like dying.
One of them even straight out told me to just buy potions; they're cheap he said (spoiler: I was already using them). This is the level of stupid that exists in the game currently. The only reason I didn't leave at that point was the need to finish the daily.
Anyway, if you thought that fight was "too hard" wait till you get to the Werewolf Boss.
Which is a GOOD thing IMO.
Honestly, when I first saw that I was going to fight a DRAGON, a real DRAGON (not some shade or ghost) at like lv 30, I cried a little inside. Dragons SHOULD be epic, and big, and HOLY ****! But now i'm just gonna faceroll this HAMSTER green dragon? *sigh*
But then the fight started, and he kicked our asses, and then he did it again. And then people rage quit. And I felt so much better knowing how crazy the fight really was, and that even though I was already being given a Dragon to fight at the midpoint of the game, that at least he was a beast. He felt tough and threatening, like a Dragon should.
Don't change this fight, its do-able, even with a pug (how I beat it the first time, didn't even have a GF in group).
there is truth to this. by 34 a cw has maxed out arcane singularity and shield, although they won't be generating ap as fast as they will once they have enough paragon feats later in the game. this combo alone kills most of the adds for this encounter however there is a risk - the succubis (casters with wings) start to heal themselves and the boss if they take enough damage.