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Rogues need balancing
hadriax1
Member Posts: 4 Arc User
As the title say's. I don't play a rogue, never have and really never plan to. It's been my experience that in every game rogues/assasins always, ALWAYS, start out as OP, this game is no different. Generally, i am not a fan of nerf's, of any kind. This usally just leads to what is refered to as "flavor of the month" classes/specs.
With this being said, i have been in several groups now at end game and they are, for the most part, 1 cleric (me), 2-3 rogues and a CW, or 2 rogues and 2 CW's. No tank, no GWF. You would think that these would be fail groups, specialy in a boss fight, you would be wrong. The amount of damage rogues put out is nothing short of amazing, can't put it any other way. I drop my Astral shield, and rogues literaly stand toe-to toe with bosses and crush them. Trash mobs don't stand a chance, they kill them faster then i can run buy and pick up loot. seen it to many times and i can't imagine this is "working as intended", where 2 other classes are literaly "not required" for end game content, and one of them is the tank !
As a side note, if the npc rogues/assasins are any indication as to what the pc rogues/assasin's do, as far as dps. Then yes they deff. need some balancing. Even the npc rogues are like fighting elites and god forbid you get any adds while fighting them.
With this being said, i have been in several groups now at end game and they are, for the most part, 1 cleric (me), 2-3 rogues and a CW, or 2 rogues and 2 CW's. No tank, no GWF. You would think that these would be fail groups, specialy in a boss fight, you would be wrong. The amount of damage rogues put out is nothing short of amazing, can't put it any other way. I drop my Astral shield, and rogues literaly stand toe-to toe with bosses and crush them. Trash mobs don't stand a chance, they kill them faster then i can run buy and pick up loot. seen it to many times and i can't imagine this is "working as intended", where 2 other classes are literaly "not required" for end game content, and one of them is the tank !
As a side note, if the npc rogues/assasins are any indication as to what the pc rogues/assasin's do, as far as dps. Then yes they deff. need some balancing. Even the npc rogues are like fighting elites and god forbid you get any adds while fighting them.
Post edited by hadriax1 on
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Also nerf clercs, cause thats the key why we can tank (its your shild
while i don't dis-agree at all with the "over-represented" class statement. That still, in no way, addresses the fact that 2 other classes are still not needed for end-game content.
i can't kill much of anything w/o help, don't see how this makes me OP in anyway, as far as pvp, sure 2 clerics might be hard to kill , unless 2 rogues are doing it >-<
So your rebuttal of the OP's comment that CW and TR are too good in PvE, is that CW are even better than TR in PvP? Um, okay.
Do feel free to take your own advice about needing to learn (in your case to actually read the original argument) before posting.
This is not your normal "lets try to balance class fairly evenly" game. Classes are basically roles so the Rogue is supposed to be a DPS class a Wizard is not normally supposed to out damage a Striker class same as a Striker class will not be able to control and CC as much as a "Control" class and so on and so on. Pve is not balanced across all classes and its not the games direction or design to do so. Just wait till the new ranged Striker dps class out and then you will see OP Pve and PvP dps but again it is DESIGNED to be that strong.
Cryptic/Perfect World will never try to balance Pve over PvP and vice versa the same they wont try to balance all classes to each other in a D and D game. You want to dps play a striker you want to give people a headache and smash keyboards go Controller.
I do Tier 2s on a GW and have many group set ups we play with sometimes we dont even have a Rogue and it still fairly smooth sailing. For now Im happy with the way it is besides its fun watching them trey and kill you and then you just side step and they are like all confused hehe.
Hmm someone who didn't follow their own advice and read what I wrote. I never stated that the cw and the tr are too good in pve. Nor did I make a blanket statement claiming that all CW are better then All TR in pvp. Maybe it is your intention to just remove all the damaging classes then we can run with clerics and tanks should only take a few days to get a quest done.
I think the majority of players crying about nerfs are the individuals who believe the particular class they are playing should be a one man unkillable killing machine.
Exactly.
OP makes a comment about how well TR and CW perform in PvE.
You reply how your CW beats TRs in PvP and tell him to "learn the game better than comeback and post again".
Then you get upset when it is pointed out your argument makes no sense.
I think I read this in that mentioned other post, but I would like to ask you a question.
Tell me the function of the GF and GWF? If you can run a dungeon with 3 TR 1 CW and 1 DC, then what is the purpose of the two "defender" class? Some fluff, so Cryptic can dupe some people who decide to play with these two classes?
Lastly, this is not a tabletop game. This is an online game, and MMO. You need balance. If you don't have balance, you will lose players. And fast.
I'm reserving judgement until the Ranger comes out, but still, the classes so far need a serious rethinking.
Agree though Hadrya it is not a table top game but I fear the way they go will be the mentioned strat.
Actually, I wanted to stop reading right after that sentence, adding it to the irritatingly growing pile of nerf-the-rouge-threads. (yes, typo was intended)
I've played rogue in all my stand-alone games, and I plan to play them online as much as I can too. And you're right, the first cry to nerf is always about rogues and always from non-rogues.
So you know what, I rolled a control wizard.
When I was leveling my thief those guys looked so powerful, an entire group of mobs in just one or two flashes. While I was prancing around bobbing and weaving. I've been chain ganked a couple of times in PvP too, didn't stand a chance with two mages. In skirmishes they usually end at high for most damage given.
And they're supposed to be rogues squishiest targets, "know thy enemy"
So, I've never played a wizard before, I've done some PvP, skirmishes and dungeons.
In PvE, it looks indeed cool when I lay waste to a small group of lowlevel mobs, but if the slightest things goes wrong, I'm not just bobbing and weaving, I'm running around like a little girl. Hmm.... actually not so much different than with the rogue. But you know what, nerf rogues anyway.
In PvP, as long as the group moved more or less like a team, it was easy picking off targets from a distance. It was indeed a blast standing there shooting stuff....and that's exactly when the rogue got me, like he should. I was surprised actually that I managed to get away a couple of times, and not been insta-slain. But you know what, nerf rogues anyway.
Skirmishes were fun, defending a location is great for a wizard...unless the rest of the skirmish group decides to free-for-all each mob individually as far away from each other as possible. So yeah, nerf rogues.
The Cloak Tower with 4 wizards was hilarious, whole groups of mobs, just *poof*, gone. A rogue and sometimes a tank managed to hit a few though, so nerf rogues. And besides, I did so much controlling, I didn't have time to go all dps, so nerf rogues.
Do you see how pointless this whole "nerf this class because it's better at what it's supposed to do" thing really is?
Somewhere on this forum someone suggested to roll and play the class you want nerfed, and I'm glad I did. Now just to bring him up to 60, so I'll actually know what I'm talking about.
So nerf the wizards! ... erhmm sorry... nerf the rogues!
So your argument is that one shouldn't worry too much about balance Rogues because CW are even more OP?
Because I think you just made the point that both classes need serious rebalancing.......
I'm saying OPness is as green as the grass at the neighbors, the other side always seems a bit better.
Which amounts to suggesting that you might as well do nothing, just because you can't balance everything.
Personally I would prefer the Devs to try to make a better balanced game even if its not perfect, as i think this would be more fun for most people.
And without further adue, Please let the rage, hate, and trolling begin.
I had a really hard time reading that without any paragraph breaks, but most of what you said seems reasonable.
However, I have to say that having played every class up to 40 apart from the GF that either I am amazingly better at playing two particular classes (you can guess which ones) in PvE and PvP or there is a huge power difference between them and the other two at those levels. Of course some people say it evens out at endgame, then again some say the issues are still there - I guess I will find out eventually.
This is where you're confused. I would never get upset over something that isn't true. I said my CW is currently outperforming rogues. There is a distinction between that and how other players are performing. I have been in pvp matches where the guardian had the most kills out of the group. It is only the player and the gear that gets the results. I have seen cw and tr being the very low end of the damage or kill count in pvp. How do you account for that? Once again you read something and interpreted an entirely different way. I was not intending to be demeaning when I wrote "learn the game better than comeback and post again". What I meant to say was learn the game better so you have a better understanding than comeback and post again.
Tanks need better threat production, healers need to get their threat production lowered, and GWF's need more DPS.
Rogues are performing their roles admirably, hitting things hard and fast while being flimsy as well. CW's are also doing great in controlling mobs. If those 2 weren't able to do their jobs properly then clearly there's something wrong with the game. We don't need to create any more problems by taking away the capabilities of those 2 classes. What needs to be done is to give the three other classes the proper buffs they need in order to transform them further into a properly working class. Right now, they are broken indeed. But we are early in the beta phase.
It's only a matter of time until we get what people want; a balanced game. Not one class needs to be nerfed in order to achieve that.
GWF are competitive if played right I had one steamroll me the other day was stunned and knocked down most of the time. Tanks can be total beasts, ever try and solo one that is played right? Healers can make darn near impossible to kill a group unless you take them out first. Get two healers together and it can be a nightmare.
I am starting to see where this thread is going. It's the casual pvp player that only notices a few things. Seriously guys play the game more and worry less about balancing classes for pvp. It will inevitably destroy the pve aspect which is a much larger portion of the game.
So, you're telling me that Rogue PvE should be nerfed?
/facepalm
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
Can we please stop referring to PvP? GWF have burst. They are also gimmicky in the fact that they basically require a certain enchant to perform at their peak. People in this thread need to realize that PvP will never be balanced properly, as it is a group scenario, whereas PvE is where min-maxers thrive and where there is need for a serious rethink on roles.
The OP himself said this thread has NOTHING to do with PvP, so this thread isn't supposed to be going anywhere near those coordinates.
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
Notice how the first person to mention PVP was breagandaerth's in the first line of his first post going on how good he is on his CW in PvP and dominates TR. I think he is just trying to get some attention, and likes being able to tell the OP to "Learn the game better than comeback and post again." because I can't imagine why else he keeps bringing up PvP in a PvE discussion.