Another day, another scrub makes another QQ thread about rogues.
Mods: why do you allow these threads? They're not constructive in any way shape or form.
OP you need to L2P your class. A good GF will have no trouble with rogues. You're just bad.
I was nodding my head until I read the third line of this post. Then I drove my forehead onto the table several until things felt normal again. EDIT: 4th line. I'm sure someone will QQ about me not counting the yawn
My good man. It appears as though I have offended you...
Although one might argue that by posting such a thread you were, in essence, "asking for it".
Allow me reiterate my point in more verbose manner, if it please you:
I firmly believe that you need to improve your knowledge of the game and your skill as a player instead of whining incessantly about other classes. You see, Guardian Fighters are quite capable of taking on Trickster Rogues in player-versus-player engagements. I have personally been on the receiving end of many a skillful Guardian Fighter's wrath and, I can assure you, they are not "easy pickings".
In short: L2P.
I wish you the best of luck in your endeavour to improve as a player.
Sincerely,
-Visions
L2R
Next time you want to pretend that you're a condescending elitist prick, back it up with some basic 5-year-old skills.
I guess you just don't like PvP. I'm having a blast with PvP in this game. PvP was also the sole reason I played WoW.
What game has "good" PvP in your opinion then?
Yes, I don't like PvP. But for some reason I find the structured PvP in Guild Wars 2 fun. Usually I play PvP in MMOs just to get stuff for PvE, but even though GW2 sPvP doesn't give anything but titles, I still enjoy playing it.
My good man. It appears as though I have offended you...
Although one might argue that by posting such a thread you were, in essence, "asking for it".
Allow me reiterate my point in more verbose manner, if it please you:
I firmly believe that you need to improve your knowledge of the game and your skill as a player instead of whining incessantly about other classes. You see, Guardian Fighters are quite capable of taking on Trickster Rogues in player-versus-player engagements. I have personally been on the receiving end of many a skillful Guardian Fighter's wrath and, I can assure you, they are not "easy pickings".
In short: L2P.
I wish you the best of luck in your endeavour to improve as a player.
Sincerely,
-Visions
You play a rogue so i am not even surprised you got all defensive. And no you didn't offend me. i was actually laughing when i read your post. Thanks for being such a cliche with 'L2P' and 'scrub' comments.
Guardian fighters is not same as GWF you know the class i am talking about? how about you L2R?
GWF are pretty gimped at the moment. Everyone knows that. So the issue is not about Rogues being OP but rather GWFs needing a buff.
So at least you read it properly this time. And if you read my OP nowhere i asked for rogues to be nerfed. However i did mention sheer number of crowd control and very few counters on GWF side. I don't care what they do with rogues but they shouldn't be able to drop a GWF a heavy armored class in matter of seconds while they are being slammed with stuns and silence.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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forsakenlich1Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The game is still in beta and is free to play. What do you expect? Balancing hasn't happened yet.
your a fool.Just because they can call it a beta doesnt make it one. The game has had four closed betas and they have opened shop. Whats next someone starts selling you appliances but says they are in testing and they are not accountable for anything? It would be your fault for buying it - but the systems fault for not ****ing up people who do this kind of thing
there is no quality control or regulating body for virtual goods of this kind making it a pirate industry. your a fool if you think it is legitimate in any way - as much of a fool if you think someone who bought pirated goods that didnt work 'had it coming to them'. Its a failure of society
As a GWF my experience is something like this at lvl 33.
1.) Enter Arena
2.) Check Enemy team
3.) 3 rogues + 2 clerics
4.) Spend another 20 to 30 mins being knock backed and silenced and insta kills by rogues.
5.) Stare at screen helplessly looking at the timer so that you can get out of the match asap.
Every now and then you meet an odd team which doesn't have this set up.
I am wearing a plate armor for God sakes and not wrapped around in a newspaper. A class like rogue shouldn't be able to just silence a heavy armor class and drop it in few seconds.
Why developers keep repeating the same mistake over and over and over again in every MMO? now i didn't expect too much out of the PVP but it is really disappointing to see same pattern being repeated in a 2013 MMORPG.
I limited myself to one pvp match a day now just to complete daily and washing my hands off PVP till they don't make heavy armor classes completely useless in front of rogues.
I feel like a complete mockery as a heavy armored class who spends majority of time being pushed back, knocked, silenced and then killed by rogues in matter of seconds while i stare at the screen helplessly.
I feel your pain, being a cleric myself and hit with rogues, its bye bye the moment 2 rogues target me. unless they get peeled off my teammates.
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jsewellMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 12Arc User
edited May 2013
The problem with GWF is we have a good niche in pve that doesn't transition well over to pvp. We are also considered a defender instead of a stiker, but our survivability and tankiness is really low. They need to either booste GWF to where we do more damage or make us more innately tanky such as a defender should be. We are currently borderline striker and in pvp we only have our encounters, dailies and unstoppable to do much damage.
And I don't care what anyone says about rogue being the only pure dps class, that will never justify being able to crit for twice the amount of someone's health look in pvp. Just bad, unfun design.
Most developers favor pve balance over pvp balance. The easiest way to fix pvp without hurting the seemingly good balance of pve right now is add in a pvp diminishing returns system, nothing too crazy, maybe make it where a rogue daily can't one hit you, and then make the GWF more tanky like a defender should be
Oh, also make it where everyone or no one starts with their dailies in a pvp match. Tired of wailing on dummies between queues.
If you are the leader of your party you can kick AFK people. I have done it on several occasions. They are not replaced though. You still have to fight outnumbered, but it stops them from leaching.
Umm why would i un install? PVE is still loads of fun. I am just disappointed to see the same mistakes being repeated yet again in Neverwinter when it comes to PVP.
I am a rogue and I don't PVP in this game....PVP here sux.... you complain bout us? we already got hit with the nerf bat.... its not us, I can say the same for CW..... etc.... if they balance us all for PVP, I said all as all classes.... then we will suck in PVE... unless they do what LOTR did.... they have some, not all , some skills on all classes scale down for PVP, and only PVP.... then when u PVE you go back to your regular stats.... this game doesn't do it.... they nerf you, so then PVP ok, but PVE then is too hard due to the nerfs.... SO it is not our chars.... it's this game doesn't know how to switch the skills between PVE and PVP... and I wish they would scale the dungeons for group and solo play if you choose, makes it a win win for all.
Your job as a gwf is to get to the enemy flag and distract and cap. 1v1, pop determination asap to take the least amount of damage. Do damage, stay on the platform. If your plan works then the enemy team will come to the aid of the rogue allowing your team to cap center, and then push their base. PVP is not about killing your enemies, it is about out playing your enemies.
Your job as a gwf is to get to the enemy flag and distract and cap. 1v1, pop determination asap to take the least amount of damage. Do damage, stay on the platform. If your plan works then the enemy team will come to the aid of the rogue allowing your team to cap center, and then push their base. PVP is not about killing your enemies, it is about out playing your enemies.
finally, someone who gets it! So many PVP matches I join the rest of the group is stupidly battling in the center while our opponent has grabbed the two end platforms. I keep asking them to grab flags but they think -kill, kill, kill and only do that.
I feel his pain. As a TR I routinely take out 2 GFW in a 1vs2 match. If I resort to popping a regen pot, I'd even contemplate the possibility of a successful 1vs3 gwf.
Your job as a gwf is to get to the enemy flag and distract and cap.
This. I do play a trickster rogue, but I will always try to cap before combat. Then when I get into combat I target their necessary classes, firstly the healers, get those down asap because no heals means the rest of the team can mop up the dying. It's more about strategy and picking your battles. When you get swamped by 2+ people, yes you will die, doesn't matter what class they are, it's like a small army breathing down your neck, especially if they use their disables intelligently. Try to go for the one enemy player straggling, or separated from the herd. Not too much unlike a predator chasing prey
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mazzeiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited May 2013
GWF doens't get an actual dodge, the sprint does not give us the same benefit rogues, wizards, clerics or GF gets, we're about as squishy as rogues with the exception of Unstoppable, I die way too fast for me to be able to do anything and my damage is so ridiculous a cleric's normal AoE damage can heal through it, I barely see my enemies' health bar lowering at all.
Lv 38, using Slam, Avalanche of Steel, Takedown, Not So Fast and Flourish. Wicked Strike for At-Wills, Weapon Master Strike, speccing into Destroyer. Ridiculous. I can't do jack against anyone. I don't feel myself making a difference, all I see is me sometimes critting for maybe 1700 on a lucky target with Flourish every 15 seconds, then I go and hit lots of 50, 50, 50 on everybody around me, then the cleric proceeds to heal everybody for 200.
I make no difference. Any. It's ridiculous. And I drop so fast, too, I can't stand being in the fray and doing my job, AoEing.
I'm supposed to be a tanky DPS, but I have neither. The problem are not rogues, wizards or clerics, but my class needs to be buffed earlier on, and probably later too.
I feel his pain. As a TR I routinely take out 2 GFW in a 1vs2 match. If I resort to popping a regen pot, I'd even contemplate the possibility of a successful 1vs3 gwf.
1 TR beating 2GWF at lower levels, sure. Been on both sides of fights like that, and it is at least even odds that the TR will win.
Don't think you will ever manage 1TR v 3GWF though. Of course this is only because GWFs are under-represented in PvP (gee, I wonder why?) , so what are the chances of getting 3 of them on the opposing team?
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mazzeiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited May 2013
GWF doens't get an actual dodge, the sprint does not give us the same benefit rogues, wizards, clerics or GF gets, we're about as squishy as rogues with the exception of Unstoppable, I die way too fast for me to be able to do anything and my damage is so ridiculous a cleric's normal AoE can heal through it, I barely see my enemies' health bar lowering at all.
Lv 38, using Slam, Avalanche of Steel, Takedown, Not So Fast and Flourish. Wicked Strike for At-Wills, Weapon Master Strike, speccing into Destroyer. Ridiculous. I can't do jack against anyone. I don't feel myself making a difference, all I see is me sometimes critting for maybe 1700 on a lucky target with Flourish every 15 seconds, then I go and hit lots of 50, 50, 50 on everybody around me, then the cleric proceeds to heal everybody for 200.
I make no difference. Any. It's ridiculous. And I drop so fast, too, I can't stand being in the fray and doing my job, AoEing.
I'm supposed to be a tanky DPS, but I have neither. The problem are not rogues, wizards or clerics, but my class needs to be buffed earlier on, and probably later too.
finally, someone who gets it! So many PVP matches I join the rest of the group is stupidly battling in the center while our opponent has grabbed the two end platforms. I keep asking them to grab flags but they think -kill, kill, kill and only do that.
Yeah, right? Our class is so weak all we're good for is distracting the enemy team and delaying them. That's the point of the GWF. Being a joke and having to avoid fights.
TRs have a very obvious animation (jumps into the air with both weapons at their sides) that telegraphs that they are about to use their daze ability. You can dodge or block this ability. once I learned this, fights vs them became much easier. hope this helps.
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mazzeiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited May 2013
I do dodge Dazing Strike, I've played them. And that's another issue besides their insane high damage. Most of my Encounter Powers have 12+ cooldowns and their effects and damage ridiculous compared to Dazing Strike.
Why do they have a 3s Daze with about 6~7 second downtime? Really? 10s cooldown for a skill so powerful as Dazing Strike? It is highly telegraphed and I can dodge, and their DPS is high and that is OK, but they rip me apart so fast it doesn't even look like I'm wearing heavy armor. Unstoppable doesn't help either because I need to take damage before I can activate it, and at some point my Stamina is down and so they'll daze me anyway and I can't escape.
Either buff our survivability a good deal so we can survive being in the fray without stealth or any other utility (and Sprint isn't utility enough, it doesn't help us avoid damage in any way, we can neither Block nor Dodge like a rogue or a wizard can with it) or buff our damage high time. One or the other. We have neither at the moment.
Let's review the concept of the classes:
Rogue: Single Target DPS that is supposed to burst down targets through stealth and by tricks. Okay, but give them either burst or sustained damage. As it stands they have both, otherwise fine.
Wizard: Crowd Control Machine with moderate-to-high damage. Seems to do his job pretty well, the class is good in my opinion.
Guardian Fighter: Resilient warrior who can block attacks, pin down enemies and stay on his targets, winning battles by attrition. Can also deal high damage if specialized for this. All right, seems about right.
Cleric: Caster who can specialize into both healing and damage, can be useful to a team by manners of buffing, debuffing, group healing and supplementary damage. Has the tools to keep enemies away from them for some time. All right, seems about right to me too.
I play with my brother, he plays a rogue, we compare numbers. I'm as good if not a better PvP'er (we are both top tier WAR players) GWF is nigh unplayably (in PvP) so far (i'm only rank 30). I usually go 6-0 to 4-2 in instances, but just off of kill stealing and allllot of lol running to health pots... I can't sway any team fight, short of the little bump by the aoe snare daily and knockdown encounter to my brother's dps... I can't reliably cap any objective, meaning I rarely ever get more than 1k points in a match since if any enemy comes to interfere, I can only call out for help and count down to my death or run.
My brothers rogue pretty much always tops the chart and goes roughly 13-0.
Rumor has it GWF are just bad until 45.
The main deal so far seems to be a bad spammable, mediocre dmg 15s CD encounters yet no way to race towards dailies...
To boot... determination... instead of how stealth causes an encounter auto crit... buffs the GWF's terrible spammable dmg... something I'd respect if it was notable since the bad spammable is one of the worst issues, but it only makes it attack twice~ as fast at 2/3~ dmg... which is still worse dps than the rogues token spammable...
There isn't really a L2P, anything you do early->mid game on a GWF can be done innately twice as well by a TR.
Give them time, it's open beta, do you remember rogues in wow vanilla? or pom pyro mages that one shot everybody. Let's just make constructive threads, let the devs know what they need to look at. Devs will never take feedback and directly integrate it into the game but they can use it and make adjustments according to the info gotten.
I personally enjoy rogue's I love the fact that you can own people who to dumb to choose the most op class
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bejita231Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited May 2013
GWF is in need of some major love, Rogue are overpowered, but GWF is very underpowred aswell, at higher levels rogues become less of a threat as the other classes start to come into their own more, remember that at low levels everyone is basically a weak dps class except for the rogue who is a strong dps class his entire career, only at late levels to cleric/CW and GF become stronger in their role and stronger against rogues
I can 1v1 any rogue as a CW and end up winning 90% of the time, and in my experience there are more CW's than there are TR's.
As a CW it's difficult fighting Guardians, since they can block for a very long time and the recharge is really fast. Most of the time I try to just kite and avoid fights with them. Just 1v1 against them takes way too much time, basically I rather just help the team than fight a guardian for 10 minutes.
PvP in general needs to be fixed imo, things I would like to see:
- Disable Mounts (I find this really cheap and they do not belong in PvP imo).
- Disable all PvE items in PvP (such as dropping altars at the center for that little heal, although it's not game breaking).
- Pots can stay imo, but I would not care less if they where removed. (I'm talking about the ones you can buy before the match).
- Add more tiers of armor for PvP (Currently we only have level 60 gear to look forward to, and that's a pretty big gap, it would be nice if we could get armors at 20 / 40 / 60).
-Add a spectate mode (Let me spectate my guild/friends who are doing PvP, I know it's beta but this would be nice).
- Let us save a PvP specific build (Like GW2 did with their PvP system, it's really helpful).
A f2p MMO with PvP is basically p2w so right off the bat you're asking for trouble ...
My first class was GWF, I rerolled to a CW, and I am liking this game much better. GWF is too squishy, and deals less damage.
If you're not a Cleric, wizard or rogue you may as well stay away from PvP. Guardians are ok for holding points but just don't bring enough damage to the table.
AE damage is bad in PvP, killing single targets fast is what's important in 5v5.
Comments
I was nodding my head until I read the third line of this post. Then I drove my forehead onto the table several until things felt normal again. EDIT: 4th line. I'm sure someone will QQ about me not counting the yawn
L2R
Next time you want to pretend that you're a condescending elitist prick, back it up with some basic 5-year-old skills.
Yes, I don't like PvP. But for some reason I find the structured PvP in Guild Wars 2 fun. Usually I play PvP in MMOs just to get stuff for PvE, but even though GW2 sPvP doesn't give anything but titles, I still enjoy playing it.
Now now... Mind your manners!
You see, these threads always descend into flame wars. I really wish the mods would just delete troll bait like this...
I could if I wanted to.
QQers should learn to adapt and overcome.
4/4 Castle Never legit. 4/4 Shadow Weaver set. 1/2 Ancient Court Magister.
You play a rogue so i am not even surprised you got all defensive. And no you didn't offend me. i was actually laughing when i read your post. Thanks for being such a cliche with 'L2P' and 'scrub' comments.
Guardian fighters is not same as GWF you know the class i am talking about? how about you L2R?
There's your problem.
GWF are pretty gimped at the moment. Everyone knows that. So the issue is not about Rogues being OP but rather GWFs needing a buff.
So at least you read it properly this time. And if you read my OP nowhere i asked for rogues to be nerfed. However i did mention sheer number of crowd control and very few counters on GWF side. I don't care what they do with rogues but they shouldn't be able to drop a GWF a heavy armored class in matter of seconds while they are being slammed with stuns and silence.
your a fool.Just because they can call it a beta doesnt make it one. The game has had four closed betas and they have opened shop. Whats next someone starts selling you appliances but says they are in testing and they are not accountable for anything? It would be your fault for buying it - but the systems fault for not ****ing up people who do this kind of thing
there is no quality control or regulating body for virtual goods of this kind making it a pirate industry. your a fool if you think it is legitimate in any way - as much of a fool if you think someone who bought pirated goods that didnt work 'had it coming to them'. Its a failure of society
I feel your pain, being a cleric myself and hit with rogues, its bye bye the moment 2 rogues target me. unless they get peeled off my teammates.
And I don't care what anyone says about rogue being the only pure dps class, that will never justify being able to crit for twice the amount of someone's health look in pvp. Just bad, unfun design.
Most developers favor pve balance over pvp balance. The easiest way to fix pvp without hurting the seemingly good balance of pve right now is add in a pvp diminishing returns system, nothing too crazy, maybe make it where a rogue daily can't one hit you, and then make the GWF more tanky like a defender should be
Oh, also make it where everyone or no one starts with their dailies in a pvp match. Tired of wailing on dummies between queues.
If you are the leader of your party you can kick AFK people. I have done it on several occasions. They are not replaced though. You still have to fight outnumbered, but it stops them from leaching.
finally, someone who gets it! So many PVP matches I join the rest of the group is stupidly battling in the center while our opponent has grabbed the two end platforms. I keep asking them to grab flags but they think -kill, kill, kill and only do that.
A bit of nostalgia for the old timers.
PVP guide - Keeping it fun with the basics.
This. I do play a trickster rogue, but I will always try to cap before combat. Then when I get into combat I target their necessary classes, firstly the healers, get those down asap because no heals means the rest of the team can mop up the dying. It's more about strategy and picking your battles. When you get swamped by 2+ people, yes you will die, doesn't matter what class they are, it's like a small army breathing down your neck, especially if they use their disables intelligently. Try to go for the one enemy player straggling, or separated from the herd. Not too much unlike a predator chasing prey
Lv 38, using Slam, Avalanche of Steel, Takedown, Not So Fast and Flourish. Wicked Strike for At-Wills, Weapon Master Strike, speccing into Destroyer. Ridiculous. I can't do jack against anyone. I don't feel myself making a difference, all I see is me sometimes critting for maybe 1700 on a lucky target with Flourish every 15 seconds, then I go and hit lots of 50, 50, 50 on everybody around me, then the cleric proceeds to heal everybody for 200.
I make no difference. Any. It's ridiculous. And I drop so fast, too, I can't stand being in the fray and doing my job, AoEing.
I'm supposed to be a tanky DPS, but I have neither. The problem are not rogues, wizards or clerics, but my class needs to be buffed earlier on, and probably later too.
1 TR beating 2GWF at lower levels, sure. Been on both sides of fights like that, and it is at least even odds that the TR will win.
Don't think you will ever manage 1TR v 3GWF though. Of course this is only because GWFs are under-represented in PvP (gee, I wonder why?) , so what are the chances of getting 3 of them on the opposing team?
Lv 38, using Slam, Avalanche of Steel, Takedown, Not So Fast and Flourish. Wicked Strike for At-Wills, Weapon Master Strike, speccing into Destroyer. Ridiculous. I can't do jack against anyone. I don't feel myself making a difference, all I see is me sometimes critting for maybe 1700 on a lucky target with Flourish every 15 seconds, then I go and hit lots of 50, 50, 50 on everybody around me, then the cleric proceeds to heal everybody for 200.
I make no difference. Any. It's ridiculous. And I drop so fast, too, I can't stand being in the fray and doing my job, AoEing.
I'm supposed to be a tanky DPS, but I have neither. The problem are not rogues, wizards or clerics, but my class needs to be buffed earlier on, and probably later too.
Yeah, right? Our class is so weak all we're good for is distracting the enemy team and delaying them. That's the point of the GWF. Being a joke and having to avoid fights.
Why do they have a 3s Daze with about 6~7 second downtime? Really? 10s cooldown for a skill so powerful as Dazing Strike? It is highly telegraphed and I can dodge, and their DPS is high and that is OK, but they rip me apart so fast it doesn't even look like I'm wearing heavy armor. Unstoppable doesn't help either because I need to take damage before I can activate it, and at some point my Stamina is down and so they'll daze me anyway and I can't escape.
Either buff our survivability a good deal so we can survive being in the fray without stealth or any other utility (and Sprint isn't utility enough, it doesn't help us avoid damage in any way, we can neither Block nor Dodge like a rogue or a wizard can with it) or buff our damage high time. One or the other. We have neither at the moment.
Let's review the concept of the classes:
Rogue: Single Target DPS that is supposed to burst down targets through stealth and by tricks. Okay, but give them either burst or sustained damage. As it stands they have both, otherwise fine.
Wizard: Crowd Control Machine with moderate-to-high damage. Seems to do his job pretty well, the class is good in my opinion.
Guardian Fighter: Resilient warrior who can block attacks, pin down enemies and stay on his targets, winning battles by attrition. Can also deal high damage if specialized for this. All right, seems about right.
Cleric: Caster who can specialize into both healing and damage, can be useful to a team by manners of buffing, debuffing, group healing and supplementary damage. Has the tools to keep enemies away from them for some time. All right, seems about right to me too.
Great Weapon Fighter: ...?
My brothers rogue pretty much always tops the chart and goes roughly 13-0.
Rumor has it GWF are just bad until 45.
The main deal so far seems to be a bad spammable, mediocre dmg 15s CD encounters yet no way to race towards dailies...
To boot... determination... instead of how stealth causes an encounter auto crit... buffs the GWF's terrible spammable dmg... something I'd respect if it was notable since the bad spammable is one of the worst issues, but it only makes it attack twice~ as fast at 2/3~ dmg... which is still worse dps than the rogues token spammable...
There isn't really a L2P, anything you do early->mid game on a GWF can be done innately twice as well by a TR.
I personally enjoy rogue's I love the fact that you can own people who to dumb to choose the most op class
As a CW it's difficult fighting Guardians, since they can block for a very long time and the recharge is really fast. Most of the time I try to just kite and avoid fights with them. Just 1v1 against them takes way too much time, basically I rather just help the team than fight a guardian for 10 minutes.
PvP in general needs to be fixed imo, things I would like to see:
- Disable Mounts (I find this really cheap and they do not belong in PvP imo).
- Disable all PvE items in PvP (such as dropping altars at the center for that little heal, although it's not game breaking).
- Pots can stay imo, but I would not care less if they where removed. (I'm talking about the ones you can buy before the match).
- Add more tiers of armor for PvP (Currently we only have level 60 gear to look forward to, and that's a pretty big gap, it would be nice if we could get armors at 20 / 40 / 60).
-Add a spectate mode (Let me spectate my guild/friends who are doing PvP, I know it's beta but this would be nice).
- Let us save a PvP specific build (Like GW2 did with their PvP system, it's really helpful).
Aside from that PvP is really legit and fun.
My first class was GWF, I rerolled to a CW, and I am liking this game much better. GWF is too squishy, and deals less damage.
AE damage is bad in PvP, killing single targets fast is what's important in 5v5.
2)Select a caller
3)Focus target!