forsakenlich1Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I have said in the start that on paper the final feat in the Instigator tree is FAR better than the other trees. The problem is, you are now trying to behave like a squishy and not get hit at all. Not a good idea when your an in your face melee fighter and off-tanking is important. Take the mad dragon fight for instance. Who is going to take out the hellfire magi if not you? And that feat will be useless the entire time. A GWF should be trying to peel aggro from clerics wizards and rogues and is in the heart of battle. He wants to tank a little to truly bring his utility out. Instigator tree wants him to behave like a squishy, which he shouldn't.
Come and get it is irreplaceable for me because of how powerfully it combos with both indomitable strike and Roar, and most importantly how it positions mobs for the entire party. It also helps peel and literally bring adds to you off your cleric rogue or wizard. It is too much control with too much range to pass up.
The slam feat gives a far more reliable boost at 25%. It doubles this build up well for pvp as Savage Advance should be your daily of choice to isolate targets and helps reduce your cooldowns to burn down the isolated target quickly.
The Sentinel tree is a bad joke at the moment, but i have hopes that it will one day be viable for off-tanking
Yeah, the class was simply designed to take some damage and peel aggro, you're absolutely right there. And I think that's the nail in the coffin for that final instigator feat, especially considering the reliability of slam's 25% in the destroyer tree. I just really WISHED it worked out because the added utility with combat advantage would be insane.
Absolutely agree with the utility of those three encounters. I really wish more GWF's took time to realize their role and maximize their damage in this method. Subbing out come and get it for a heavy-hitting single spell may be useful in some non-aoe fights.
The only questions I have left: 15% more damage on marked targets -- is this worth pursuing via indomitable strike and battle fury? The wicked strike talent in instigator -- maybe this alone is powerful enough to make the tree worth considering? Need more numbers on combat advantage.
Apart from those questions, everything I've experienced in game matches up with your write-up, so I hope more people use this build or a similar variation. Or at the VERY least start using roar. And I do appreciate the fact that this build can double for pvp usage whereas the instigator build would not do so well. That's a notable point in a game where respecs are...not so readily available.
I'm lvl 22 and GWF genuinely just seem bad with little to change in the future. They are depressingly subpar in every way, to every other class short of in mobility, but even that control wizards/rogues tend to only be slightly worse at that.
I've stacked 800 power (which is an outrageous amount for the lvl) and went up from useless->mediocre dmg as I went from lvl 19->20...
The cripplingly bad single target auto attack, with every encounter on a 15s CD, just has been killing me.
Don't get me wrong, slam is a fantastic ability and I feel genuinely useful, especially to my party, when I have it up, but it takes 5~ minutes to get to a daily power...
Short of those few seconds, hitting for the usual 80 dmg an auto attack swing lets rogues... even rogues who I outplay in every way (avoid/determine threw their daze, land every knockdown->leaching, stick on them threw their stealth)... actually still end up coming up a lil ahead in life...
It's an utterly terrible class atm, so not sure if I should stick with it.
The cripplingly bad single target auto attack, with every encounter on a 15s CD, just has been killing me.
Don't get me wrong, slam is a fantastic ability and I feel genuinely useful, especially to my party, when I have it up, but it takes 5~ minutes to get to a daily power...
Short of those few seconds, hitting for the usual 80 dmg an auto attack swing lets rogues... even rogues who I outplay in every way (avoid/determine threw their daze, land every knockdown->leaching, stick on them threw their stealth)... actually still end up coming up a lil ahead in life...
It's an utterly terrible class atm, so not sure if I should stick with it.
Try the following changes in your playstyle. Once you know how to get fast determination and action points, you will find true power:
1) Absorb attacks for determination: quickly identify mobs and their attacks based on the zone you're in. This may sound ridiculous but it's not. Mob types are almost identical in each respective zone and its respective dungeon so you just need to learn which attacks you can absorb and which you need to dodge (attacks that leave you prone). Some attacks just knock you back even though you're not in unstoppable. Learning all this small stuff helps you build up faster determination, and it really isn't hard. Most mobs have like 2-3 different attacks tops. Sometimes, you will need to dodge an attack even if you are in unstoppable -- mobs that drain your health will drain through unstoppable so its worth dodging that attack.
2) Gather up larger packs and then fight. This goes to the above point. Once you can identify the mob types and how it will aggro to you, you can round up groups of mobs, stack on the ranged ones, and then go to town. This will require smart usage of your companion, or a mount.
3) Use roar. Do it, period. Once you can position those large groups you round up with a good roar, you already have 25-75% of your ability points for slam. This skill alone is one major reason you can have a slam uptime that is ridiculous. Oh, and slam is awesome.
4) Not a change, but a point: encounters on a roughly 10~20 second cd is perfect in my opinion. Its usage matches up almost perfectly with your determination dumps. Use encounters, position, determination dump, position, etc. The fights work out, or you should MAKE them work out, so that you quickly alternate between those two states, sometimes even interweaving encounters during determination dumps if the situation calls for it.
Remember the class seems weak because if you approach it like any other class and just go from one group of mobs to another group of mobs, just using your skills on maybe 3 opponents tops (which is the structure of many maps, two weak mobs and a tough one), it will seem weak. Abuse ways to build determination and ability points to get to slam faster. You may find that you will be using sure strike not as often anymore.
You may also now realize why gold means a lot to your class...
Sentinel is pure worthless as guardians simply do a better job tanking - so why should you? Unless you get all tank gear, then your damage goes for ****, you dont want too much aggro any way.
Instigator is also meh. It does increase offhand AoE dps a little, but the 25% increase in power with SLAM is too good to pass up. It does have by FAR the best 31 point feat of the 3 trees, a guaranteed 50% increase in dps. Even if you take aggro the minute you lose it it is back up again. This does mean you cannot off-tank though, which is not really what a GWF wants to do. He wants to be available to peel and tank adds.
Companion - while leveling cleric is great and saves a lot of headache and irritation - not to mention gold. End game If you have life steal acolyte for solo to keep potting down a minimum and Ioun Stone for dungeons. The stone is the only companion that is untargetable and cannot die, and gives excellent bonuses. My stone is only rank 12 and gives me a whoping 340 Power, 141 defesne 121 arpen and some deflect regen and recovery - this is in addition to boosts from its items with a +7% pet stats rune stone.
The rest of the pets, until the ai is improved anyway, are just gimmicky. The only viable end game pets are the cat and stone at the moment and given the heavy AoE in dungeons like Mad Dragon, the only really viable 'pet' at all is the Ioun Stone
Cool build Forsaken. I like some of the tweaks you've made with the destroyer. Ill add a bit about the instigator. The instigator off tanks just fine, in fact better then the destroyer. The destroyer can build up determination faster during single target no doubt but aoe is exactly what the instigator excels at. No power increase can make up for the stacking 5% flat damage increase on the initiators wicked strikes for aoe. You'll rarely not have a stack or two of the capstone up after the initial pull. That is the destroyer slam bonus damage pretty much right there and there is no 5% stacking damage for destroyer. During aoe fights the raw 5% damage increase is way bigger then power from the capstone. The capstone is just icing on the cake.
I did swap and try destroyer, and it has some cool things. But the initiator is defiantly the king when it comes to aoe damage output in pve.
Cool build Forsaken. I like some of the tweaks you've made with the destroyer. Ill add a bit about the instigator. The instigator off tanks just fine, in fact better then the destroyer. The destroyer can build up determination faster during single target no doubt but aoe is exactly what the instigator excels at. No power increase can make up for the stacking 5% flat damage increase on the initiators wicked strikes for aoe. You'll rarely not have a stack or two of the capstone up after the initial pull. That is the destroyer slam bonus damage pretty much right there and there is no 5% stacking damage for destroyer. During aoe fights the raw 5% damage increase is way bigger then power from the capstone. The capstone is just icing on the cake.
I did swap and try destroyer, and it has some cool things. But the initiator is defiantly the king when it comes to aoe damage output in pve.
Thanks for your input on instigator, it really helps. I had a lot of questions on some of these feats earlier in this thread, and I'm really curious to verify your assertion that the wicked strike talent alone makes it worth going instigator.
Could you expand a bit more on the benefits of combat advantage with the build? I'm not clear on its effects and more importantly your experience with how long you can keep it up.
Thanks for your input on instigator, it really helps. I had a lot of questions on some of these feats earlier in this thread, and I'm really curious to verify your assertion that the wicked strike talent alone makes it worth going instigator.
Could you expand a bit more on the benefits of combat advantage with the build? I'm not clear on its effects and more importantly your experience with how long you can keep it up.
I won't necro the thread as there is some really good info in here, if you have questions on instigator I've got a thread discussing. I just wanted to clear up the information that instigator is not a good off-tank I've payed to spec both destroyer and instigator and to me both trees are better at their intended role.
Destroyer - better single target damage and faster determination gain in low enemy fights; weaker in aoe fights
Instigator - the aoe king of the game from what i can tell; weaker kit vs low mob fights and single target fights ( I have not speced instigator to test if or how much behind it is in single target, that is still an unknown to me, but aoe there is no comparison from my testing - instigator takes that title)
Sentinel - haven't touched it, heard its pretty broken right now.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Extinction - GWF
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forsakenlich1Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Cool build Forsaken. I like some of the tweaks you've made with the destroyer. Ill add a bit about the instigator. The instigator off tanks just fine, in fact better then the destroyer. The destroyer can build up determination faster during single target no doubt but aoe is exactly what the instigator excels at. No power increase can make up for the stacking 5% flat damage increase on the initiators wicked strikes for aoe. You'll rarely not have a stack or two of the capstone up after the initial pull. That is the destroyer slam bonus damage pretty much right there and there is no 5% stacking damage for destroyer. During aoe fights the raw 5% damage increase is way bigger then power from the capstone. The capstone is just icing on the cake.
I did swap and try destroyer, and it has some cool things. But the initiator is defiantly the king when it comes to aoe damage output in pve.
The instigator doesn't off tank fine because he loses the entire utility of his final feat if he tanks anything at all
The only thing good - albeit very good - about the tree is the wicked strike. It is a one trick pony build and completely useless in PvP.
Not sure if you use Roar and come and get it as encounters but with those you have slam up 2-3 times per pack depending on the size and an unknown amount of times during boss fights. 25% power with that ability up all the time is the king of AoE, not your wicked strikes.
You might be getting a 5% stacking buff on wicked strike but you dont get extra 10% mitigation reduction from WMS to encounters, lowered cooldown on roar and takedown for immense pvp and pve utility in one 5 point feat, 25% CDR for 5 second with savage advance for pvp in addition to the 25% bonus on slam for both pvp and pve, 10% flat at will bonus and 15% bleed on all targets.
Trash mobs in tier 2 dungeons appear to have about 10-20 mobs depending on it all. Here you are ability locked first off, as stopping wicked strike will reset your stacks, meaning the minute you stop its animation you are losing the damage increase - you cannot use encounters or dailies if all you are doing is relying on this. The rest of the feats in the tree - all of them are a joke. Extra run speed, combat advantage connected things (hard to take advantage of, requires positioning, just not sensible over flat buffs). Combat advantage related things mean you are supposed to be behind enemies which means not tanking them. Thats 2 reasons why that tree cannot or should not tank.
Deflect increases.
All useless things. One final feat that is excellent on paper but bad in practice and makes you a bad off tank as your losing a huge part of your damage - not to mention any combat advantage bonuses if you are tanking a target.
All you have is a completely PvP unviable build that relies on being a one trick pony and getting bored using Wicked Strike all the time and not using other abilities as you will reset your stacks if you do.
Horrible build worse than sentinel
Incidentally if you combine all the bonuses from the destroyer tree and 'add them' your looking at a 50% bonus or so excluding slam bonuses. You need 10 wicked strike stacks and you need to keep them to equal the bonus damage of this tree. The minute your in small packs or the pack thins down your doing less bonus damage and still locked into one skill.
Given the limited feats and powers in this game, the limit to how many you can put on your bar, and the fact that respecs are real and costly and for character overheals and not for day to day ****ing around, the only viable build at the moment is what i have posted on page 3. Nothing else comes close in reliability, utility and damage. Nothing
The instigator doesn't off tank fine because he loses the entire utility of his final feat if he tanks anything at all
The only thing good - albeit very good - about the tree is the wicked strike. It is a one trick pony build and completely useless in PvP.
Not sure if you use Roar and come and get it as encounters but with those you have slam up 2-3 times per pack depending on the size and an unknown amount of times during boss fights. 25% power with that ability up all the time is the king of AoE, not your wicked strikes.
You might be getting a 5% stacking buff on wicked strike but you dont get extra 10% mitigation reduction from WMS to encounters, lowered cooldown on roar and takedown for immense pvp and pve utility in one 5 point feat, 25% CDR for 5 second with savage advance for pvp in addition to the 25% bonus on slam for both pvp and pve, 10% flat at will bonus and 15% bleed on all targets.
Trash mobs in tier 2 dungeons appear to have about 10-20 mobs depending on it all. Here you are ability locked first off, as stopping wicked strike will reset your stacks, meaning the minute you stop its animation you are losing the damage increase - you cannot use encounters or dailies if all you are doing is relying on this. The rest of the feats in the tree - all of them are a joke. Extra run speed, combat advantage connected things (hard to take advantage of, requires positioning, just not sensible over flat buffs). Combat advantage related things mean you are supposed to be behind enemies which means not tanking them. Thats 2 reasons why that tree cannot or should not tank.
Deflect increases.
All useless things. One final feat that is excellent on paper but bad in practice and makes you a bad off tank as your losing a huge part of your damage - not to mention any combat advantage bonuses if you are tanking a target.
All you have is a completely PvP unviable build that relies on being a one trick pony and getting bored using Wicked Strike all the time and not using other abilities as you will reset your stacks if you do.
Horrible build worse than sentinel
Ill agree to disagree on the pve side of things. Pvp I cannot say I don't do it. I see some very good pvp skills in destroyer for sure and you have some good points there. Instigator has some interesting pvp stuff as well, the stun on flourish is pretty sick. Ground stomp over setting up combat advantage damage increase and increased crit, stun with mad buffed flourish, knock him down while hes stunned with takedown and crank on him with sure strike while he gets up.
In pve Instigator can slam 2-3 times on tier 2 fights same as destroyer, but the destroyer is weaker in pve aoe that is for sure.
The destroyer is not the best at everything, single target determination gain and possibly pvp you are prob right destroyer is the boss. Pve aoe and setting up favourable situations for your party I respect your opinion but disagree. I don't think you understand how the instigator actually plays beyond paper. I can see this in a few ways but mainly as the main point about your wicked strikes stack thing is completely wrong information. Wicked strikes is just a flat increase in damage for each additional target hit there is no stacking of that. I have paid to spec and play destroyer and openly admit that he is better at certain things. But again, he is not the best at everything.
Using instigator in pve content is nothing like what you describe above and he is far from a one trick pony in pve anyway.
Try the following changes in your playstyle. Once you know how to get fast determination and action points, you will find true power:
1) Absorb attacks for determination:
2) Gather up larger packs and then fight
3) Use roar.
Remember the class seems weak because if you approach it like any other class and just go from one group of mobs to another group of mobs, just using your skills on maybe 3 opponents tops (which is the structure of many maps, two weak mobs and a tough one), it will seem weak. Abuse ways to build determination and ability points to get to slam faster. You may find that you will be using sure strike not as often anymore.
You may also now realize why gold means a lot to your class...
I did say, in PvP.
:P
The class has been workable in PvE, haven't died and tend to do fine aoe'ing down mobs.
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gaco47Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
what should i maximize on this build for pve power crit arpen ?
what should i maximize on this build for pve power crit arpen ?
power -> restoration - > Arpen
Crit is a dumb stat on GWF (not a bad stat in itself) but dont try to maximize it. You want your unstoppable and slam up all the time. This is why you take the CDR feat on Roar and get even lower CDs with high restoration. On trash mobs you never have unstoppable down and almost never have slam down
sithisheMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited May 2013
Still leveling GWF, level 24 tho but doing PvP all the time, making rouges runaway from me, enjoing faces of CW "Why he immune to controlls when he grows bigger?" Good, balanced class, not overpowered, but in right hands will be deathmachine
Thanks for the guide. If GWFs are a bit underpowered at the moment, then we just need to theorycraft a bit better and play a bit better than other classes. I'm up for it.
Patches will come and go, class balance will swing around and back again - just like any other MMO. Pick a class for the PLAYSTYLE, and just ride the waves...
Thanks for the build, will definitely be using it to WRECK HAVOC!!!
I come from WoW Where I had the top ranked 2s and 3s team on my server (~1900). I played a Warrior and obviously love melee romp and stomp characters. The GWF was the obvious choice. Did some quick reading and found a lot of /cry posts about them not being reliable in PvP. I was thinking it was just some scrubs who didnt know how to play the class. Happy to see this and have some enlightenment. Always goes to show that the majority of people don't know how to even begin to understand their class after "x" amount of time.
Have to fix the basic heroic feats since Disciple of Strength is a 3/3 not 5/5
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cantthinkMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 6Arc User
edited May 2013
I respeced to this today, been using it all day and really see no damage difference from when I was a **** 60 with my leveling talents... still getting out dps'ed by rogues and cw's by HUGE amounts. Could I possibly be doing something wrong?
I don't see how you destroyers are landing raw takedowns without flourish, much less a talented flourish.
Takedown has one of the most obvious "please dodge me" animations in the game and is so slow that you can literally dodge it by walking if you're quick enough.
Good build. I am thinking about rerolling my tiefling GWF and I noticed that you totally skipped the race/stats. My first atempt with a human was 16+2str/15dex. Should I go full 20str or take more points on dex?
Thanks!
Sprint in, get hit once by all the mobs, pop determination, spam WMS, CW groups em up real nice, indomitable, spam WMS, determination when it has refilled.
Rinse, repeat. I place first or barely second every run I do. Everyone in my group is 11k GS or higher though.
I don't see how you destroyers are landing raw takedowns without flourish, much less a talented flourish.
Takedown has one of the most obvious "please dodge me" animations in the game and is so slow that you can literally dodge it by walking if you're quick enough.
You keep on them with punishing charge and at wills and let them burn dodges. Your not dodging takedown by just walking
Good build. I am thinking about rerolling my tiefling GWF and I noticed that you totally skipped the race/stats. My first atempt with a human was 16+2str/15dex. Should I go full 20str or take more points on dex?
Thanks!
I max strength then either dex or con depending on dps or tank. I am sentinel right now so I have max con
Sprint in, get hit once by all the mobs, pop determination, spam WMS, CW groups em up real nice, indomitable, spam WMS, determination when it has refilled.
Rinse, repeat. I place first or barely second every run I do. Everyone in my group is 11k GS or higher though.
Your GF is going to hate you and in instances like dread vault and karrundrax your going to get kod if you pull without sentinel spec
We don't have a GF in our group. You don't need one with a GWF. 1hit from a 6pack of mobs is full Determination. Full determination is 50% dmg reduction. With the Destroyer path, and a big pack of mobs trapped in Singularity, a GWF can literally refill his Determination with one Indomitable.
Here is my build that doubles for PvP quite effectively
it differs from the builds posted so i wanted to put it up
the dps is just as effective if not more if played properly than the 'other' builds, and it is all round powerful and not just a min-max build like most have been trying to find
At Wills: Sure Strike 3/3, WMS 3/3, Wicked Strike 3/3
Wicked strike is insane damage on groups of 3 or more. WMS is an excellent spell because it debuffs, does good damage, hits multiple targets, and most importantly has a single click commitment. Sure Strike has a 4 hit commitment. This means in fights where there is a lot of aoe that needs to be dodged or you need mobility to run around and draw add aggro/peel for your cleric, your dps will be sub maximal. With WMS, you have to commit one click only. You are, indeed, bound by the animation of your 'clone' for a little longer while it gets the second hit in, but it allows for way more mobility and relaxed attention so that you can preemptively move between swings. And in all honestly, i haven't found a really big boost in damage from SS over WMS.
Roar is an excellent spell, does good damage, brings an interrupt for pesky casters, and builds a HUGE amount of action points if you hit enemies properly with it. Your most powerful ability, Slam, can be up 50% of the time if you learn to use roar. With the 25% power increase from the destroyer feats, this really helps make you unstoppable.
Indomitable Weapon Strike is an excellent nuke. Unlike flourish, and unlike its tooltip, you have no 'target' but a target area. If a group of enemies is lined up, you hit them all for full damage. If you crit on one you crit on all. You can be critting for around 15k on 5-6 enemies at once with this ability with an 8k GS.
Punishing Charge - most guides are taking flourish or some other spell. They are overlooking the need for mobility. Speed rush/sprint is clunky to use in fights and often doesn't give you enough reaction time to get out of red circles or to move around peeling for your cleric and such. Punishing charge has excellent range - not too much or too little, does a good amount of damage to every enemy you pass through, almost always has charges up - has 3 charges inherently at max rank, and breaks your attack animation. This is very important as being stuck in attack animation is the number one reason you get caught in AoE and die. Sprint doesnt break it fast enough and is clunky. This spell is a MUST for a pure DPS GWF in high end dungeons. You WILL die without it and in fact the sticking power that it gives you and the dps it adds will provide you with far more dps than flourish.
Encounters: For pvp:
Indomitable Battle Strike 5/5 still a great nuke here
Takedown 5/5: Good damage, short cooldown with Relentless Battle Fury, and knocks your target prone. This is the strongest cc in the game - as it is a stun but has a recovery period after. Use this first then Indomitable Battle Strike to land it guaranteed
Come and Get It 5/5: Your now Darius from league of legends. Enjoy the fear that getting pulled into melee range of a Great Weapon Fighter invokes. Abuse the psychological power of it, and abuse your ability to pull running squishes into your team or into yourself - you one man team you
Dailies: Slam 3/3, Crescendo 3/3
Slam is a must get. The boost in the Destroyer tree that gives you +25% power is insane, especially since SLAM lasts something like a total of 10 seconds. It does a lot of AoE damage, slows, and best of all, does not lock your character up. You are free to move around and keep doing damage with encounters and at wills, and free to dodge enemy attacks. With Steel Defenses as a pvp class feature, you are now doing tons of damage, being mobile and doing your normal dps + 25%, ANDIMMUNE TO ALL DAMAGE FOR A WHOPPING 5 SECONDS. It doesnt get much better than that
Crescendo - because its the only other daily worth a ****. Slam takes care of AoE take this as a single target nuke for isolated targets in PvP or Boss/Elite mobs in dungeons
Steadfast Determination is a given. You need determination to get your Unstoppable up, and this increases it naturally in combat. Consider that there are no other abilities to increase your determination in this build, and this becomes a natural choice
Steel Blitz: Destroyer gives a max of 6% extra damage, Steel Blitz is way better consider the GWF strikes many opponents at once. Steel Defenses and Steel Grace are your third options as Class Features. Steel Defenses is a little gimmicky but can be a very powerful gimmick. Activate Slam and tear up your enemies for 5 seconds of immunity and boosted 125% damage. Or if you choose to be 'safer' and less gimmicky, CC reduction is always a good thing.
Feats: Heroic
Unstoppable Action 5/5: Self Explanatory. You need action point game to SLAM as much as possible in pvp and pve
Steely Defense 5/5 : Some say it is bugged, perhaps it is. I doubt it will be forever though. It is a good double dipping feat giving you power based on your defense - up to 20% at max rank
Weapon Mastery 3/3: Needed to fill up the Heroic feats, and 3% extra crit chance is not bad at all for a passive
Disciple of Strength 5/5: Self explanatory. Especially as a human who chooses strength as his primary attribute, you will get a nice boost in damage from this.
Endless Assault 3/3: 6% more damage on encounters? Yes plz
Devastating Critical 3/3: 15% extra crit damage is quite excellent. You get plenty of crit in end game gear, so you do crit a lot. In conjunction with the Paragon feats Deep Gash and Student of the Sword, your criticals are a very dangerous thing
Toughness 1/3: A little more HP. Needed to fill the Heroic tree. The only thing worth getting with a single rank in it.
Feats: Paragon
Great Weapon Focus 5/5: 10% extra damage on At Wills. Self explantory.
Staying Power 5/5: Makes your WMS reduce enemy target mitigation to your Encounters by 10%, in addition to the debuff applies to your on wills. Awesome!
Deep Gash: Does 15% of your power in damage over time when you crit. With a gear score of 8k i have 4.1k power with an Ioun Stone. This translates into roughly 525 damage additional (before mitigation) with each crit. When you crit, you crit everything as this game appears to calculate crit on your swings and not on the damage the enemy takes. Very powerful on a GWF
Relentless Battle Fury 5/5:
Self explanatory. Allows your Roar to be up plenty of times in PvE, in turn allowing you to generate action points faster and in turn allowing you to have slam and your power boost/ damage immunity up more often. Also allows you to have Takedown up more often in PvP A must have...
Battle Awareness 5/5: This is the feat that gives that big boost to you when you are running SLAM. Excellent feat
Destroyer 1/1: As needed. Improves damage of Encounters by 10% when unstoppable is active (not that great as to maximize DPS during Unstoppable you want to burn your encounters BEFORE becoming unstoppable, then use at wills only during Unstoppable, then use the refreshed cooldowns again after), but gives you determination for attacking which is good. The Titleic feat isnt that great, in truth, and Instigators Titleic feat is WAY better. To make up for it, the instigator tree itself is trash for DPS, while the destroyer tree is easily the best and most viable
Student of the Sword: 5/5
Makes your crits even more deadly
For gear 'prioritization', well, you cant prioritize anything. You get what you get end game. In tier 1, I prefer Bladestorm's set as recovery is a super valuable resource and I prefer it over crit especially since it helps slam be up EVEN MORE often, and your 25% boost on power from slam with the feat easily outweighs extra criticals.
I havent gotten to play around with enchantments much yet but I am using Plaguefire right now and it seems to be fine. I use Power enchants on all offensive slots and HP enchants on all defensive slots. This is because I find that it is high burst damage that is really your enemy in encounters and boss fights, and HP mitigates it better and allows you to pot after CC or get healed better than defense or deflect would. Utility i put movespeed because - really, what the **** are the other ones for?
General Comments/Advice about pve
Open with your Encounters ASAP. You want them to get on cooldown then off again ASAP.
Use punishing Charge to reposition yourself when enemy skills target the ground under you, to chase enemies that have gotten displaced from you (the less time you miss getting to them = more dps), to clean up slightly scattered low health enemies that wicked strike would not reach and to position yourself to peel for your squishies.
Use WMS on 1-2 enemies and Wicked Strike on 3 or more. Use WMS first any way to get the debuff, and add it in to the rotatio nevery 2-3 seconds to keep the debuff on.
Your primary goal is to maximize your godlike AoE DPS. Refrain from getting caught up DPSing the boss/elite and instead reposition yourself with Punishing Charge into the thickest density of enemies and use WMS to debuff then wicked strike to burn them down. for really large, really sparsed encounters you can use punshing charge multiple times in conjunction with WMS and Wicked Strike to cover a much larger area.
Contrary to what is being said, do not 'save' your Indomitable Strike for 'dying' enemies. It is a waste of dps and the debuff is junk any way. The range is poor and you often dont debuff nearby enemies, and the worst part that you forget is that they lose the debuff if they attack you - whic hthey very well might. Instead, use it at the start of your rotation to get it on and off cooldown asap, and try to position yourself with lined up enemies to hit them all with it. Contrary to its tooltip, it has no target but a target area and will hit as many enemies as will come under it
Enjoy! GWF is a great class and plenty of fun
Additionally, you dont need to have a facefull of enemies to use slam. even 2 elites is a perfect time to use slam or 1 super elite (savage or similar). On boss fights, use it instead of crescendo. Especially combined with the 25% power boost, you are going to do way more damage than with a crescendo. Crescendo is only slightly less worthless than the other dailies. This is the only daily you need, I am still trying to figure out where i would use it over SLAM
could you take screen shots of powers, feats and skill bar?
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aitolosMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I respeced to this today, been using it all day and really see no damage difference from when I was a **** 60 with my leveling talents... still getting out dps'ed by rogues and cw's by HUGE amounts. Could I possibly be doing something wrong?
+1same here and im full heroic duelist scale and i had a rogue mock me badly that im <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on dps in a dungeon today and he was right i was 3rd :S
and btw i was doing rotations and everything right so i dont know what is happening time will show i guess...
Comments
Come and get it is irreplaceable for me because of how powerfully it combos with both indomitable strike and Roar, and most importantly how it positions mobs for the entire party. It also helps peel and literally bring adds to you off your cleric rogue or wizard. It is too much control with too much range to pass up.
The slam feat gives a far more reliable boost at 25%. It doubles this build up well for pvp as Savage Advance should be your daily of choice to isolate targets and helps reduce your cooldowns to burn down the isolated target quickly.
The Sentinel tree is a bad joke at the moment, but i have hopes that it will one day be viable for off-tanking
Absolutely agree with the utility of those three encounters. I really wish more GWF's took time to realize their role and maximize their damage in this method. Subbing out come and get it for a heavy-hitting single spell may be useful in some non-aoe fights.
The only questions I have left: 15% more damage on marked targets -- is this worth pursuing via indomitable strike and battle fury? The wicked strike talent in instigator -- maybe this alone is powerful enough to make the tree worth considering? Need more numbers on combat advantage.
Apart from those questions, everything I've experienced in game matches up with your write-up, so I hope more people use this build or a similar variation. Or at the VERY least start using roar. And I do appreciate the fact that this build can double for pvp usage whereas the instigator build would not do so well. That's a notable point in a game where respecs are...not so readily available.
I'm lvl 22 and GWF genuinely just seem bad with little to change in the future. They are depressingly subpar in every way, to every other class short of in mobility, but even that control wizards/rogues tend to only be slightly worse at that.
I've stacked 800 power (which is an outrageous amount for the lvl) and went up from useless->mediocre dmg as I went from lvl 19->20...
The cripplingly bad single target auto attack, with every encounter on a 15s CD, just has been killing me.
Don't get me wrong, slam is a fantastic ability and I feel genuinely useful, especially to my party, when I have it up, but it takes 5~ minutes to get to a daily power...
Short of those few seconds, hitting for the usual 80 dmg an auto attack swing lets rogues... even rogues who I outplay in every way (avoid/determine threw their daze, land every knockdown->leaching, stick on them threw their stealth)... actually still end up coming up a lil ahead in life...
It's an utterly terrible class atm, so not sure if I should stick with it.
Try the following changes in your playstyle. Once you know how to get fast determination and action points, you will find true power:
1) Absorb attacks for determination: quickly identify mobs and their attacks based on the zone you're in. This may sound ridiculous but it's not. Mob types are almost identical in each respective zone and its respective dungeon so you just need to learn which attacks you can absorb and which you need to dodge (attacks that leave you prone). Some attacks just knock you back even though you're not in unstoppable. Learning all this small stuff helps you build up faster determination, and it really isn't hard. Most mobs have like 2-3 different attacks tops. Sometimes, you will need to dodge an attack even if you are in unstoppable -- mobs that drain your health will drain through unstoppable so its worth dodging that attack.
2) Gather up larger packs and then fight. This goes to the above point. Once you can identify the mob types and how it will aggro to you, you can round up groups of mobs, stack on the ranged ones, and then go to town. This will require smart usage of your companion, or a mount.
3) Use roar. Do it, period. Once you can position those large groups you round up with a good roar, you already have 25-75% of your ability points for slam. This skill alone is one major reason you can have a slam uptime that is ridiculous. Oh, and slam is awesome.
4) Not a change, but a point: encounters on a roughly 10~20 second cd is perfect in my opinion. Its usage matches up almost perfectly with your determination dumps. Use encounters, position, determination dump, position, etc. The fights work out, or you should MAKE them work out, so that you quickly alternate between those two states, sometimes even interweaving encounters during determination dumps if the situation calls for it.
Remember the class seems weak because if you approach it like any other class and just go from one group of mobs to another group of mobs, just using your skills on maybe 3 opponents tops (which is the structure of many maps, two weak mobs and a tough one), it will seem weak. Abuse ways to build determination and ability points to get to slam faster. You may find that you will be using sure strike not as often anymore.
You may also now realize why gold means a lot to your class...
Cool build Forsaken. I like some of the tweaks you've made with the destroyer. Ill add a bit about the instigator. The instigator off tanks just fine, in fact better then the destroyer. The destroyer can build up determination faster during single target no doubt but aoe is exactly what the instigator excels at. No power increase can make up for the stacking 5% flat damage increase on the initiators wicked strikes for aoe. You'll rarely not have a stack or two of the capstone up after the initial pull. That is the destroyer slam bonus damage pretty much right there and there is no 5% stacking damage for destroyer. During aoe fights the raw 5% damage increase is way bigger then power from the capstone. The capstone is just icing on the cake.
I did swap and try destroyer, and it has some cool things. But the initiator is defiantly the king when it comes to aoe damage output in pve.
Extinction - GWF
Thanks for your input on instigator, it really helps. I had a lot of questions on some of these feats earlier in this thread, and I'm really curious to verify your assertion that the wicked strike talent alone makes it worth going instigator.
Could you expand a bit more on the benefits of combat advantage with the build? I'm not clear on its effects and more importantly your experience with how long you can keep it up.
I won't necro the thread as there is some really good info in here, if you have questions on instigator I've got a thread discussing. I just wanted to clear up the information that instigator is not a good off-tank I've payed to spec both destroyer and instigator and to me both trees are better at their intended role.
Destroyer - better single target damage and faster determination gain in low enemy fights; weaker in aoe fights
Instigator - the aoe king of the game from what i can tell; weaker kit vs low mob fights and single target fights ( I have not speced instigator to test if or how much behind it is in single target, that is still an unknown to me, but aoe there is no comparison from my testing - instigator takes that title)
Sentinel - haven't touched it, heard its pretty broken right now.
Extinction - GWF
The instigator doesn't off tank fine because he loses the entire utility of his final feat if he tanks anything at all
The only thing good - albeit very good - about the tree is the wicked strike. It is a one trick pony build and completely useless in PvP.
Not sure if you use Roar and come and get it as encounters but with those you have slam up 2-3 times per pack depending on the size and an unknown amount of times during boss fights. 25% power with that ability up all the time is the king of AoE, not your wicked strikes.
You might be getting a 5% stacking buff on wicked strike but you dont get extra 10% mitigation reduction from WMS to encounters, lowered cooldown on roar and takedown for immense pvp and pve utility in one 5 point feat, 25% CDR for 5 second with savage advance for pvp in addition to the 25% bonus on slam for both pvp and pve, 10% flat at will bonus and 15% bleed on all targets.
Trash mobs in tier 2 dungeons appear to have about 10-20 mobs depending on it all. Here you are ability locked first off, as stopping wicked strike will reset your stacks, meaning the minute you stop its animation you are losing the damage increase - you cannot use encounters or dailies if all you are doing is relying on this. The rest of the feats in the tree - all of them are a joke. Extra run speed, combat advantage connected things (hard to take advantage of, requires positioning, just not sensible over flat buffs). Combat advantage related things mean you are supposed to be behind enemies which means not tanking them. Thats 2 reasons why that tree cannot or should not tank.
Deflect increases.
All useless things. One final feat that is excellent on paper but bad in practice and makes you a bad off tank as your losing a huge part of your damage - not to mention any combat advantage bonuses if you are tanking a target.
All you have is a completely PvP unviable build that relies on being a one trick pony and getting bored using Wicked Strike all the time and not using other abilities as you will reset your stacks if you do.
Horrible build worse than sentinel
Incidentally if you combine all the bonuses from the destroyer tree and 'add them' your looking at a 50% bonus or so excluding slam bonuses. You need 10 wicked strike stacks and you need to keep them to equal the bonus damage of this tree. The minute your in small packs or the pack thins down your doing less bonus damage and still locked into one skill.
Given the limited feats and powers in this game, the limit to how many you can put on your bar, and the fact that respecs are real and costly and for character overheals and not for day to day ****ing around, the only viable build at the moment is what i have posted on page 3. Nothing else comes close in reliability, utility and damage. Nothing
Ill agree to disagree on the pve side of things. Pvp I cannot say I don't do it. I see some very good pvp skills in destroyer for sure and you have some good points there. Instigator has some interesting pvp stuff as well, the stun on flourish is pretty sick. Ground stomp over setting up combat advantage damage increase and increased crit, stun with mad buffed flourish, knock him down while hes stunned with takedown and crank on him with sure strike while he gets up.
In pve Instigator can slam 2-3 times on tier 2 fights same as destroyer, but the destroyer is weaker in pve aoe that is for sure.
The destroyer is not the best at everything, single target determination gain and possibly pvp you are prob right destroyer is the boss. Pve aoe and setting up favourable situations for your party I respect your opinion but disagree. I don't think you understand how the instigator actually plays beyond paper. I can see this in a few ways but mainly as the main point about your wicked strikes stack thing is completely wrong information. Wicked strikes is just a flat increase in damage for each additional target hit there is no stacking of that. I have paid to spec and play destroyer and openly admit that he is better at certain things. But again, he is not the best at everything.
Using instigator in pve content is nothing like what you describe above and he is far from a one trick pony in pve anyway.
Extinction - GWF
I did say, in PvP.
:P
The class has been workable in PvE, haven't died and tend to do fine aoe'ing down mobs.
'
power -> restoration - > Arpen
Crit is a dumb stat on GWF (not a bad stat in itself) but dont try to maximize it. You want your unstoppable and slam up all the time. This is why you take the CDR feat on Roar and get even lower CDs with high restoration. On trash mobs you never have unstoppable down and almost never have slam down
WMS is weapon masters strike rellkar
Were they by any chance screaming and trying to gouge out their own eyes?
Because the only reason I can think of for a Rogue to run away from a level 24 GWF was if you were a Half-Orc posing wearing only your loincloth...
Patches will come and go, class balance will swing around and back again - just like any other MMO. Pick a class for the PLAYSTYLE, and just ride the waves...
I come from WoW Where I had the top ranked 2s and 3s team on my server (~1900). I played a Warrior and obviously love melee romp and stomp characters. The GWF was the obvious choice. Did some quick reading and found a lot of /cry posts about them not being reliable in PvP. I was thinking it was just some scrubs who didnt know how to play the class. Happy to see this and have some enlightenment. Always goes to show that the majority of people don't know how to even begin to understand their class after "x" amount of time.
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Takedown has one of the most obvious "please dodge me" animations in the game and is so slow that you can literally dodge it by walking if you're quick enough.
Thanks!
Sprint in, get hit once by all the mobs, pop determination, spam WMS, CW groups em up real nice, indomitable, spam WMS, determination when it has refilled.
Rinse, repeat. I place first or barely second every run I do. Everyone in my group is 11k GS or higher though.
Great build though i love it.
You keep on them with punishing charge and at wills and let them burn dodges. Your not dodging takedown by just walking
I max strength then either dex or con depending on dps or tank. I am sentinel right now so I have max con
Your GF is going to hate you and in instances like dread vault and karrundrax your going to get kod if you pull without sentinel spec
This is not a wall of text
P.S. We do Castle Never without a tank too ^_^
could you take screen shots of powers, feats and skill bar?
+1same here and im full heroic duelist scale and i had a rogue mock me badly that im <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on dps in a dungeon today and he was right i was 3rd :S
and btw i was doing rotations and everything right so i dont know what is happening time will show i guess...