Nobody every backs up the claim that NWNO is a P2W game. They just toss it out as if making the claim is enough. To support that claim don't you have to demonstrate that the best gear is ONLY available for $$? If you can get the same or better in game using in game resources then isn't it by definition not P2W.
The fact most items in the auction house have AD prices and not gold.silver/copper is pretty proof enough the game is pay2win, especally when you add in the fact you can sell zen for ad, this just compounds this. Your not going to get into raids for the best gear without first spending a ****ton of AD on gear to have enough gearscore to do it. There is my backup to the claim. If the ah only used gold, and not AD's then this pay2win people are complaning about wouldn't exist, but since most people list for ad's the game is pretty much pay2win if you wanna ever gear up anytime soon. You can only convert 24k rough ad to refined a day, though I am pretty sure in my guess that if you buy it with zen this is bypassed (which is another point why its completly pay2win).
Wanna try to refute this point? I dare you to try because one look at the ah and you'll see what I mean.
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dtrain69Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
The fact is you don't "need" to reskin stuff. And you can buy a mount for 2 gold.
Don't remove gems. The gear gets replaced so quickly and the gems drop so often it's a waste.
Don't be lazy and spend 2 minutes running to a gate to go to Protectors.
You pay for convenience it's that simple.
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rapticorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,078Arc User
I've played a lot of MMOs - the price of playing THIS game is a lot higher than any except the Asian MMOs which have a similar price structure.
How so? You can PLAY this game for free. During beta weekends I got to level 50 without spending a dime. The price of playing THIS game is zero. If people CHOOSE to spend it on other things that's on them.
I've played a lot of MMOs - the price of playing THIS game is a lot higher than any except the Asian MMOs which have a similar price structure. In the American MMOs that I've played, the cash shop prices are much lower and many necessities like bank space are account-wide. People can say that we have to pay for the game somehow, but it is a bit too pricey for me given my other choices of games to play. Once I get to the point where the lack of cash shop items is making my play too unpleasant, I will simply stop playing rather than pay these exorbitant prices. Frankly I think they'd make more money if they charged less. I know if the prices were reasonable I'd actually buy stuff...
Yeah I rarely every spend a penny in cash shops in these games because the prices for the virtual items that cost 0 to produce once initially made are so stupidly high. Sorry but 20 bucks USD for a pet, or a mount or a costume is just a little bit obscene, now if it was 5 bucks I'd consider it but, with prices that high (the 20 dollar a pop one) I won't even bother to put any money in. This compounded with the fact that you need AD for just about everything, which can also be bought for cash shop funds, and bypass the 24k/day refining limit just proves Neverwinter is 100% pay2win.
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calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Heck, DDO is a nice game, but you pretty much have to spend cash on modules after level 4 or so.
This is completely untrue. First, you can get to around level 10 (out of 25) without getting additional content. Second, you can earn the points to buy the content in-game.
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djynniMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 17Arc User
How so? You can PLAY this game for free. During beta weekends I got to level 50 without spending a dime. The price of playing THIS game is zero. If people CHOOSE to spend it on other things that's on them.
(random CAPS is fun!)
You should be making this reply to @timm4444 who said "thats the "price" of playing for "free"" and which I was responding to. IF this is the price, it is too high. I wasn't saying that you had to buy anything.
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
The fact most items in the auction house have AD prices and not gold.silver/copper is pretty proof enough the game is pay2win, especally when you add in the fact you can sell zen for ad, this just compounds this. Your not going to get into raids for the best gear without first spending a ****ton of AD on gear to have enough gearscore to do it. There is my backup to the claim. If the ah only used gold, and not AD's then this pay2win people are complaning about wouldn't exist, but since most people list for ad's the game is pretty much pay2win if you wanna ever gear up anytime soon. You can only convert 24k rough ad to refined a day, though I am pretty sure in my guess that if you buy it with zen this is bypassed (which is another point why its completly pay2win).
Wanna try to refute this point? I dare you to try because one look at the ah and you'll see what I mean.
If you can buy it without spending any $$ then it isn't pay to win. It doesn't matter if someone else can get it faster by paying. If you can get it also without paying then you can get it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
this pretty much is all i ever see when i ask for advice, how do you people make so much ad, i didn't ask for a p2w debate, i am poor irl and i cant afford to buy zen, but i would like to make AD, im asking for the best ways to do so.
1. Dailies.
2. active quests from the home page thingy. Running those rewards bonus AD.
3. sell any green or blue item on the AH for AD. If your vendering and not selling it on the AH you are losing potential AD.
4. Pray.
5. there are certain high level skirmishes like race to the something that reward more AD.
6. turn in treasures to Rhix.
Good grief it isn't that hard.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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dcrawler69Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 10Arc User
edited May 2013
Why do they not allow you to cancel a ZEN to AD auction without a penalty? It is not returned to your personal account.
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
Why do they not allow you to cancel a ZEN to AD auction without a penalty? It is not returned to your personal account.
Selling any item through the auction house has a built in penalty. If you put it up and pull it out you pay the penalty. And yes this applies to posting zen to trade. There is a minimum fee you will always pay.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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archaicsealMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 22Arc User
edited May 2013
Truthfully, this game isn't pay to win. But this game is also not free to play. Sure, you can play it for free and enjoy a fairly good experience up to level 60. But then? Well, it becomes pay to play. Sure you can continue logging in and running around, maybe run a few delves. But you will be severely limited in what you can do unless you pick up zen and buy up AD. You will also need a good bit of gold for those really upper delves. Potions and injury kits go pretty fast.
So honestly, the game is f2p until 60. After that, the demo is over and you have to shell out real money if you want to progress to the insanely hard dungeons. Sure, you can just stick around and do achievements for free. Maybe pvp a lot. Or, better yet, roll a new toon and level him to 60. But, though some of you may disagree with me, at 60 it eventually becomes pay to play (further) and nevermind that the content can be very similar to what you did while leveling up (except harder). Dont believe me? Get to 60.
There has never been, nor will there ever be a free lunch...
This "free to play" is just BS they tell you so you get hooked to buy. And it's been a growing business model as it has been shown to bring in big bucks, over and above a fee/subscription based model.
Deal with it. It's just the way life it. You work to make money so you don't have that much time to play, so you buy to "win". Or your a no job sort and have time to spare.
Me, lol, I'm semi retired so I can pay AND play Bwhhahahaaaaaa
But back in the day I sure as <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> didn't spend 3, 5, 10 hours playing fricking computer games. I was working, making bucks...
I give this game about a year, then it will go the way every other "FTP" game has gone. Once you hit the max limit there anit much to do if you don't pay.
Truthfully, this game isn't pay to win. But this game is also not free to play. Sure, you can play it for free and enjoy a fairly good experience up to level 60. But then? Well, it becomes pay to play. Sure you can continue logging in and running around, maybe run a few delves. But you will be severely limited in what you can do unless you pick up zen and buy up AD.
I give this game about a year, then it will go the way every other "FTP" game has gone. Once you hit the max limit there anit much to do if you don't pay.
You mean like the other PWI titles, or maybe LOTR or DDO, or Vanguard, or EQ, or well do you want me to keep on with titles that are doing well after a year?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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archaicsealMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 22Arc User
Okay, and what does gold have to do with 'pay to win'? Aside from nothing?
One of the main things you need is max level enchants. When you combine high level enchant stones for the max tier stone you have a 1% chance of being successful unless you buy the wardstone for 1000 zen (or equivalent AD). Go ahead man, try grinding that much AD out for EACH piece of gear you need to enchant. And you need your gear enchanted in those top tier dungeons to be successful. That's just one of the facets of what you will be shelling out real money for. Listen, I dont mind paying, that's fine, my point was that the game is NOT free to play, it is more of: "kinda free to play". If you are a level 60 running upper tier material, you already know this. If not, you soon will.
As for the gold, I didnt mean anything by it outside of the letting people know (as a side note) to save up gold. Most people at sub-60 believe there is no real purpose for gold. But you will be spending a lot of it later on. I guess it came across as part of the pay to play argument, I certainly didnt mean it that way.
Look, I know cryptic needs to make money (and they should) and i dont mind forking over 15 bucks a month in zen instead of paying for a subscription. I do have some serious concerns about pricing in the zen shop. Especially wardstones that make every enchant fuse being succesful. I mean at 1000 zen per stone, well thats 10 bucks right there. Now imagine paying 10 bucks to have a TOP tier enchant in every slot of armor. Grinding AD out for that is even MORE unthinkable, and honestly I would lose interest in the game long before i had earned enough AD for 1 wardstone. And i certainly wouldnt pay 10 bucks for every slot of armor/weapon I have.
I would almost say the wardstone thing comes close to "pay to win". But honestly, I am sick and tired of the whole pay to win argument. If I come to the point where I feel I am paying to win, I will just start another toon and hit 60, and repeat until i get bored and move on to something else (as I did in STO). Now, if Zen prices in the shop come down in level I wouldnt mind spending more money, but as is, 15 a month (subscription equivalency) gets you very very little return.
(60k AD to do an appearance change on a single armor piece seems high, though.... three days of extensive play for just that? Hmm.)
Have you played GW2? Where weeks of instance grinding and item destruction are required to unlock specific weapon skins?
People will work for that stuff. They will work to look how they want or have a special appearance.
You mean like the other PWI titles, or maybe LOTR or DDO, or Vanguard, or EQ, or well do you want me to keep on with titles that are doing well after a year?
Pretty sure anyone who has played a PWE game knows this. They make a game, it starts off great but then people see the ridiculous prices. "It's ok they'll lower them eventually" the playerbase says as they continue to buy the **** up. Two years later the game is reduced to one server with barely anyone on it and PWE has a new game out.
Have you played GW2? Where weeks of instance grinding and item destruction are required to unlock specific weapon skins?
People will work for that stuff. They will work to look how they want or have a special appearance.
That's not quite the same thing - yeah, working a long time to get a specific fancy look is one thing. But I've got a couple armor looks I'd love to keep using while leveling my characters (particularly ones I dyed).... but I'm replacing gear so often that I'd burn through every AD I have, and still not be able to keep that appearance (since, every single time you upgrade an armor piece, you have to pay again to transfer).
Dyes are a wholly different topics. I would already have spent money on those if they were not single use. Should my characters ever get a full set of the best gear in the game, I may buy the dyes. But until then I'll just have the social clothing option permanently turned on. Some of the outfits are really neat and cost the same as three tubes of black dye.
I make 15k ad in about a hour farming the blacklake skirmish during the 1000 ad event as a GF.
I did 2 skirmishes during the start of an ad event. I got 1k AD for the first one and 100 AD for the second. I don't see how you can get 15K unless you have 15 characters. Even then you would have to do each skirmish in 4 minutes including que time.
I really don't feel like this game is pay to win. That implies that you have to spend money in order to get the best or good gear. You can pay real cash in this game for items to help you along, but that is different from pay to win.
However, I do feel like this game nickle and dimes you into paying for it. I understand it's F2P, but there needs to be some fixes to how things are now, imo. Vanity items for example, I agree with very high AD prices for those, I won't complain about that. But as far as how tedious it is for your average player to make AD's, and the cost of certain things, such as enchants or runestones to put them in and take them out... that's just crazy. Far too high for what you get. That is nickle and diming and I personally have a big problem with that. In fact, I think that is my only legitimate beef with this game so far.
My opinion, lower the cost of the AD's for your day to day game stuff, example: placing and removing runestones. Maybe even change the cost of things from AD's from your typical game play features to gold. Keep AD's to vanity items and specialty things. Or make Epic items cost AD's and every other piece of gear cost gold. Just spitballing ideas here, but this is how I feel about it.
Comments
The fact most items in the auction house have AD prices and not gold.silver/copper is pretty proof enough the game is pay2win, especally when you add in the fact you can sell zen for ad, this just compounds this. Your not going to get into raids for the best gear without first spending a ****ton of AD on gear to have enough gearscore to do it. There is my backup to the claim. If the ah only used gold, and not AD's then this pay2win people are complaning about wouldn't exist, but since most people list for ad's the game is pretty much pay2win if you wanna ever gear up anytime soon. You can only convert 24k rough ad to refined a day, though I am pretty sure in my guess that if you buy it with zen this is bypassed (which is another point why its completly pay2win).
Wanna try to refute this point? I dare you to try because one look at the ah and you'll see what I mean.
Don't remove gems. The gear gets replaced so quickly and the gems drop so often it's a waste.
Don't be lazy and spend 2 minutes running to a gate to go to Protectors.
You pay for convenience it's that simple.
How so? You can PLAY this game for free. During beta weekends I got to level 50 without spending a dime. The price of playing THIS game is zero. If people CHOOSE to spend it on other things that's on them.
(random CAPS is fun!)
Yeah I rarely every spend a penny in cash shops in these games because the prices for the virtual items that cost 0 to produce once initially made are so stupidly high. Sorry but 20 bucks USD for a pet, or a mount or a costume is just a little bit obscene, now if it was 5 bucks I'd consider it but, with prices that high (the 20 dollar a pop one) I won't even bother to put any money in. This compounded with the fact that you need AD for just about everything, which can also be bought for cash shop funds, and bypass the 24k/day refining limit just proves Neverwinter is 100% pay2win.
I must be on the wrong server or wrong time zone. 5-10 minute queues are normal for me.
This is completely untrue. First, you can get to around level 10 (out of 25) without getting additional content. Second, you can earn the points to buy the content in-game.
You should be making this reply to @timm4444 who said "thats the "price" of playing for "free"" and which I was responding to. IF this is the price, it is too high. I wasn't saying that you had to buy anything.
You get 2 bags free just for questing. And I've seen bags forsale in the auction house for AD.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If you can buy it without spending any $$ then it isn't pay to win. It doesn't matter if someone else can get it faster by paying. If you can get it also without paying then you can get it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
1. Dailies.
2. active quests from the home page thingy. Running those rewards bonus AD.
3. sell any green or blue item on the AH for AD. If your vendering and not selling it on the AH you are losing potential AD.
4. Pray.
5. there are certain high level skirmishes like race to the something that reward more AD.
6. turn in treasures to Rhix.
Good grief it isn't that hard.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Selling any item through the auction house has a built in penalty. If you put it up and pull it out you pay the penalty. And yes this applies to posting zen to trade. There is a minimum fee you will always pay.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
So honestly, the game is f2p until 60. After that, the demo is over and you have to shell out real money if you want to progress to the insanely hard dungeons. Sure, you can just stick around and do achievements for free. Maybe pvp a lot. Or, better yet, roll a new toon and level him to 60. But, though some of you may disagree with me, at 60 it eventually becomes pay to play (further) and nevermind that the content can be very similar to what you did while leveling up (except harder). Dont believe me? Get to 60.
This "free to play" is just BS they tell you so you get hooked to buy. And it's been a growing business model as it has been shown to bring in big bucks, over and above a fee/subscription based model.
Deal with it. It's just the way life it. You work to make money so you don't have that much time to play, so you buy to "win". Or your a no job sort and have time to spare.
Me, lol, I'm semi retired so I can pay AND play Bwhhahahaaaaaa
But back in the day I sure as <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> didn't spend 3, 5, 10 hours playing fricking computer games. I was working, making bucks...
I give this game about a year, then it will go the way every other "FTP" game has gone. Once you hit the max limit there anit much to do if you don't pay.
Care to explain the bolded part?
Okay, and what does gold have to do with 'pay to win'? Aside from nothing?
You mean like the other PWI titles, or maybe LOTR or DDO, or Vanguard, or EQ, or well do you want me to keep on with titles that are doing well after a year?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
One of the main things you need is max level enchants. When you combine high level enchant stones for the max tier stone you have a 1% chance of being successful unless you buy the wardstone for 1000 zen (or equivalent AD). Go ahead man, try grinding that much AD out for EACH piece of gear you need to enchant. And you need your gear enchanted in those top tier dungeons to be successful. That's just one of the facets of what you will be shelling out real money for. Listen, I dont mind paying, that's fine, my point was that the game is NOT free to play, it is more of: "kinda free to play". If you are a level 60 running upper tier material, you already know this. If not, you soon will.
As for the gold, I didnt mean anything by it outside of the letting people know (as a side note) to save up gold. Most people at sub-60 believe there is no real purpose for gold. But you will be spending a lot of it later on. I guess it came across as part of the pay to play argument, I certainly didnt mean it that way.
Look, I know cryptic needs to make money (and they should) and i dont mind forking over 15 bucks a month in zen instead of paying for a subscription. I do have some serious concerns about pricing in the zen shop. Especially wardstones that make every enchant fuse being succesful. I mean at 1000 zen per stone, well thats 10 bucks right there. Now imagine paying 10 bucks to have a TOP tier enchant in every slot of armor. Grinding AD out for that is even MORE unthinkable, and honestly I would lose interest in the game long before i had earned enough AD for 1 wardstone. And i certainly wouldnt pay 10 bucks for every slot of armor/weapon I have.
I would almost say the wardstone thing comes close to "pay to win". But honestly, I am sick and tired of the whole pay to win argument. If I come to the point where I feel I am paying to win, I will just start another toon and hit 60, and repeat until i get bored and move on to something else (as I did in STO). Now, if Zen prices in the shop come down in level I wouldnt mind spending more money, but as is, 15 a month (subscription equivalency) gets you very very little return.
Just my opinion, nothing more.
People will work for that stuff. They will work to look how they want or have a special appearance.
Pretty sure anyone who has played a PWE game knows this. They make a game, it starts off great but then people see the ridiculous prices. "It's ok they'll lower them eventually" the playerbase says as they continue to buy the **** up. Two years later the game is reduced to one server with barely anyone on it and PWE has a new game out.
That's not quite the same thing - yeah, working a long time to get a specific fancy look is one thing. But I've got a couple armor looks I'd love to keep using while leveling my characters (particularly ones I dyed).... but I'm replacing gear so often that I'd burn through every AD I have, and still not be able to keep that appearance (since, every single time you upgrade an armor piece, you have to pay again to transfer).
However, I do feel like this game nickle and dimes you into paying for it. I understand it's F2P, but there needs to be some fixes to how things are now, imo. Vanity items for example, I agree with very high AD prices for those, I won't complain about that. But as far as how tedious it is for your average player to make AD's, and the cost of certain things, such as enchants or runestones to put them in and take them out... that's just crazy. Far too high for what you get. That is nickle and diming and I personally have a big problem with that. In fact, I think that is my only legitimate beef with this game so far.
My opinion, lower the cost of the AD's for your day to day game stuff, example: placing and removing runestones. Maybe even change the cost of things from AD's from your typical game play features to gold. Keep AD's to vanity items and specialty things. Or make Epic items cost AD's and every other piece of gear cost gold. Just spitballing ideas here, but this is how I feel about it.