I don't like BoP. Nothing irks me more than not being able to help friends by giving them gear if they could possibly benefit from it.
Then craft something for them, give them a BOE green, or better yet - take them on an adventure into one of the dungeons, help them defeat the enemies that drop the item and have them earn it. There are many options on how to gear yourself or your friends that doesn't hurt the experience for people who want to go into a dungeon without people needing on a great upgrade for them so they can give to their friends.
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Then craft something for them, give them a BOE green, or better yet - take them on an adventure into one of the dungeons, help them defeat the enemies that drop the item and have them earn it. There are many options on how to gear yourself or your friends that doesn't hurt the experience for people who want to go into a dungeon without people needing on a great upgrade for them so they can give to their friends.
By your own words the problem is people needing/greeding gear that they don't need.
That's the problem...that can be solved.
BoP is punishing everybody for the sake of a few. Its no different than cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Oh PWE and Cryptic, PLEASE change the dungeon drops to BoP. Tera had the same problem, making dungeon drops bind on equip, and is currently one of the reasons why Tera is essentially failing. Yes it is a business and yes by making the drops BoE it might encourage individuals to buy Astral Diamonds, however it will also eventually lead to a huge decrease in the player base of this game. I love the game and I hope it succeeds, but this is a change that needs to happen.
If it's BOP ppl will still ninja just to grieve and vendor it anyways
Once a ninja, always a ninja.
Yes it happens regardless, so the topic is fairly irrelevant. Overall imo people that want BoP are people that don't see the long term impacts. BoE makes the game more accessible, more accessibility leads to more player turn around, so "X" amount of players quit and "Y" amount of players join and stay cause of the less need to have to run multiple times to get a BoP item and can just buy it off auction and higher levels reap money from sales and are also happy and old players realize they are missing out and come back to make money off new players as well as Cryptic.
BoE is a more logical choice to keep userbase flowing, these aren't the old days of subscription based games where you are a mouse on a treadmill, the game isn't reliant on how long you are in the game, but that you come back and BoE will keep people coming back and keep the game alive and won't die so early like so many other MMO's these days.
I agree with the comment "cutting off your nose to spite your face", cause BoE actually fixes alot of problems that players have been complaining about for years, yet here we go again.....
Come on people BoE is better, just get over the short term frustration and think about the long term impact.
By your own words the problem is people needing/greeding gear that they don't need.
That's the problem...that can be solved.
BoP is punishing everybody for the sake of a few. Its no different than cutting off your nose to spite your face.
It IS solved, by making dungeon items, specifically boss drops - BOP. How is someone who is unwilling to run a dungeon punished by not being able to get rewards for running the dungeon? What about titles? Aren't people who don't do the content required to earn the titles punished because they can't buy titles on the AH?
If you can find another way to solve it then that would be wonderful. But we have to be honest here - players will hurt the playing experience of other players, whether on purpose or not, if given the opportunity. Why give them the opportunity? If it is really necessary to offer the same level of gear to people who don't bother to do the content to earn it then there are plenty of better alternatives. Like making craftables just as good. Nobody that runs a 45+ minutes dungeon likes seeing an upgrade go to someone who will turn around and sell it to them. THAT is punishing everybody.
Another solution, which I've seen tossed around, is to make an item BOP or BOE depending on whether you won it by needing or greeding. And, naturally, only allowing people who can use the item need on it. This will motivate even people who can need choose greed if they intend to sell it or give it to friends. It's really an elegant solution.
Here's a quick solution that solves both sides of this argument, and problem.
Add in a "Set Party Loot" options, where the leader of the party can simply right click his icon while he/she is in a party, and simply select from a list of options divvying up the loot.
....all you people realize you can already set loot drops, right? At the beginning of the run, the party leader simply changes it from "need or greed" to say..."round robin" or even "leader decides".
This is definitely a big problem. A lot of thought likely went into the dungeons (clearly Pvp wasn't the big focus) and what's the point of going through them if you can buy the items for money? It completely defeats the purpose of adventure and PLAYING the game. We want an incentive and that incentive is that shiny new piece of loot at the end.
Yeah, it's one of the biggest problems for the most successful MMO ever made? The only one of this kind that's still left standing and isn't forced to go p2w in order to stay in business? Yeah, it would be a real shame to learn anything from it.
It's win/win/lose. Win for the the ninjas, win for the baddies, lose for people who actually want to earn what they get.
It has nothing to do with hardcore and casual. I'm a casual player, I don't want to buy things that other people earn, I accept the fact that I can't get it because I didn't put the time/effort into it. And it really bothers me that people that do want to earn it are going to be plagued by people who want to make a few credits off of slackers who can't accept that they are not entitled to everything the game offers just because they are willing to pay for it.
please no one earns anything its a game.
0
calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Another solution, which I've seen tossed around, is to make an item BOP or BOE depending on whether you won it by needing or greeding. And, naturally, only allowing people who can use the item need on it. This will motivate even people who can need choose greed if they intend to sell it or give it to friends. It's really an elegant solution.
I believe I mentioned that a page before or so.
As Jadedragon and logisitcs mentioned, though, if you make things BoP the poblem doesn't go away. People will still need on everything or greed on items others don't use.
So BoP simply kills the great long term effects of BoE. BoP has it's purpose but it's not to prevent people from trying to claim all of the loot. I'm not sure why that seems to have become MMO Standard.
And it is important to note the Need/Greed/Pass system is simply the default system as clcmercy stated. It can be changed by the party leader at any time. If you're the party leader, change it! Or ask for it to be changed.
Ok so you want to make everything unsellable if it's BoP.
That will get real boring real fast...
You need an incentive to play as well as an incentive to steal. Your suggestion would kill the incentive of getting drops for everybody.
Please elaborate how making boss drops BoP if NEEDed would do that. No one needed the item and you got it? Great. Now you can give it to a friend or an alt or sell it on the exchange.
Well, I'm not saying they earned their boss drops in the same way that a soldier earns the Medal of Honor. But they did earn it, as opposed to someone who pays real money to get it. This is basic game logic, basic RPG logic. If I'm playing Baldur's Gate or something, I know there will be some gear I can only get by completing quests or beating certain monsters, why isn't anyone complaining that there should have been a vendor that sold you all the gear in the game in Baldur's Gate? Why didn't anyone think he was punished for being forced to fight dragons if he wanted to get what they drop?
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Please elaborate how making boss drops BoP if NEEDed would do that. No one needed the item and you got it? Great. Now you can give it to a friend or an alt or sell it on the exchange.
If it's only from needing it wouldn't be an big issue. I didn't notice you only wanted to apply that for needing an item. That's fine in my books.
I thought you were suggesting make everything BoP and "Cannot Sell."
QUOTE=sinmuballit;2670962]Well, I'm not saying they earned their boss drops in the same way that a soldier earns the Medal of Honor. But they did earn it, as opposed to someone who pays real money to get it. This is basic game logic, basic RPG logic. If I'm playing Baldur's Gate or something, I know there will be some gear I can only get by completing quests or beating certain monsters, why isn't anyone complaining that there should have been a vendor that sold you all the gear in the game in Baldur's Gate? Why didn't anyone think he was punished for being forced to fight dragons if he wanted to get what they drop?[/QUOTE]
This. Why run dungeons if the incentive is no longer there? This is an RPG after all and part of the fun is acquiring new loot through challenges.
This. Why run dungeons if the incentive is no longer there? This is an RPG after all and part of the fun is acquiring new loot through challenges.
I run dungeons because they are fun, everyone else I know runs them for the same reason, while the complaining may indicate otherwise not that many people gets their underoos in a wad over "Earning stuff" I mean it's great and all that you do, but putting your standards off on others isn't going to work.
Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited May 2013
Yeah I play for fun too st0rmdragon but my fun comes in different levels.
Playing for nothing because everything is BoP isn't fun for me. Or rather the better term would be thrilling. Getting that rare drop worth a lot isn't why I play but it's an important factor in keeping even the unlucky people like me playing.
For me, though, while making money is all fine and dandy...
The real reward is being able to help friends. Getting thousands of AD is awesome.
But helping a friend is priceless.
And losing that to BoP would be horrible any day of the week...especially because the problem wouldn't be solved by making items Bind on Pickup but still remaining salable to the merchants.
Yeah I play for fun too st0rmdragon but my fun comes in different levels.
Playing for nothing because everything is BoP isn't fun for me. Or rather the better term would be thrilling. Getting that rare drop worth a lot isn't why I play but it's an important factor in keeping even the unlucky people like me playing.
For me, though, while making money is all fine and dandy...
The real reward is being able to help friends. Getting thousands of AD is awesome.
But helping a friend is priceless.
And losing that to BoP would be horrible any day of the week...especially because the problem wouldn't be solved by making items Bind on Pickup but still remaining salable to the merchants.
Oh I agree I just don't think BOP is the way to go here, I think an expanded system that kept things as is but included a chance to dropped personalized loot might be a better thought than just individual loot for all. I mean it wouldn't be all that painful to lose that Dagger of infinite darkness to the control wizard if you knew there was also a chance to get it on your individual drop.
If it's only from needing it wouldn't be an big issue. I didn't notice you only wanted to apply that for needing an item. That's fine in my books.
I thought you were suggesting make everything BoP and "Cannot Sell."
Yeah, that would be silly.
Personally I have no problems with people getting the gear without running the dungeon. I just hate it when games end up like STO where 'greed' is the same as 'pass' or when the actual chance of getting an upgrade is the drop% / 5.
0
ozewaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I know alot of players have already posted about this but the more we discuss and talk about this, the more chances they will change it.
Dungeon gear being Bind on equip is just a stupid feature that allows players to ninja good items to sell in the auction.
Meaning a fully geared player will only do dungeon so he can take all the gear from players.
Yes we can kick that player or leave his party but then just joining a que for dungeons take so long..
Conclusion: make dungeon gear bind to player
Or: imply class roll in rolling options
Suggestion: add world bosses in open maps which drop blue/epic gear which is Bind on equip.
You know, I usually wait for somebody else to need on something they clearly do not need before I click need.
President of the Amnian Illithid Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC). Please spread the word that the term "Mind Flayer" is a derogatory term to our kind.
I run dungeons because they are fun, everyone else I know runs them for the same reason, while the complaining may indicate otherwise not that many people gets their underoos in a wad over "Earning stuff" I mean it's great and all that you do, but putting your standards off on others isn't going to work.
Well, from what you are saying, you don't care about gear, that means that your underoos shall remain unwaded even if the system will not allow you to need on stuff you can't use. So what are you complaining about? You'll still have your fun running the dungeon. I just want to minimize the possibility of players being griefed. Which currently happens, in almost every single pug.
There's a point where being too much of a fanboy hurts the thing you care about. The system I proposed doesn't hurt your fun and doesn't even prevent the people who consider that they are entitled to dungeon loot without running the dungeon from getting it, so why be against it when everybody truly wins here?
Well, from what you are saying, you don't care about gear, that means that your underoos shall remain unwaded even if the system will not allow you to need on stuff you can't use. So what are you complaining about? You'll still have your fun running the dungeon. I just want to minimize the possibility of players being griefed. Which currently happens, in almost every single pug.
There's a point where being too much of a fanboy hurts the thing you care about. The system I proposed doesn't hurt your fun and doesn't even prevent the people who consider that they are entitled to dungeon loot without running the dungeon from getting it, so why be against it when everybody truly wins here?
This...
I paid for the game and I want it to succeed. But with the way the end game is structured, I would've thought twice before making that Founders pack purchase. Don't let fanboyism cloud your judgement and overall picture
The current system is pretty weird as the options make no sense. To streamline it, the options should simply be 'roll' if you want a chance to win the item or 'pass' if you don't. Need makes no sense as anyone can need so everyone does. With everyone needing, greed is simply a redundant option.
The last 3 dungeon groups I was in had people who rolled need on everything. Frustrating when in every other MMO you've played people actually had manners and only rolled on what they could use instead of this. Most of the time, at least. A need before greed system would be greatly appreciated.
A quick solution would be to set up a chat channel for dungeon groups that's closely moderated. Post the channel here and set the ground rules. Anyone violates the rules gets banned from the channel. A similar channel exists over at STO for elite STF's.
Comments
Then craft something for them, give them a BOE green, or better yet - take them on an adventure into one of the dungeons, help them defeat the enemies that drop the item and have them earn it. There are many options on how to gear yourself or your friends that doesn't hurt the experience for people who want to go into a dungeon without people needing on a great upgrade for them so they can give to their friends.
By your own words the problem is people needing/greeding gear that they don't need.
That's the problem...that can be solved.
BoP is punishing everybody for the sake of a few. Its no different than cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Once a ninja, always a ninja.
Yes it happens regardless, so the topic is fairly irrelevant. Overall imo people that want BoP are people that don't see the long term impacts. BoE makes the game more accessible, more accessibility leads to more player turn around, so "X" amount of players quit and "Y" amount of players join and stay cause of the less need to have to run multiple times to get a BoP item and can just buy it off auction and higher levels reap money from sales and are also happy and old players realize they are missing out and come back to make money off new players as well as Cryptic.
BoE is a more logical choice to keep userbase flowing, these aren't the old days of subscription based games where you are a mouse on a treadmill, the game isn't reliant on how long you are in the game, but that you come back and BoE will keep people coming back and keep the game alive and won't die so early like so many other MMO's these days.
I agree with the comment "cutting off your nose to spite your face", cause BoE actually fixes alot of problems that players have been complaining about for years, yet here we go again.....
Come on people BoE is better, just get over the short term frustration and think about the long term impact.
It IS solved, by making dungeon items, specifically boss drops - BOP. How is someone who is unwilling to run a dungeon punished by not being able to get rewards for running the dungeon? What about titles? Aren't people who don't do the content required to earn the titles punished because they can't buy titles on the AH?
If you can find another way to solve it then that would be wonderful. But we have to be honest here - players will hurt the playing experience of other players, whether on purpose or not, if given the opportunity. Why give them the opportunity? If it is really necessary to offer the same level of gear to people who don't bother to do the content to earn it then there are plenty of better alternatives. Like making craftables just as good. Nobody that runs a 45+ minutes dungeon likes seeing an upgrade go to someone who will turn around and sell it to them. THAT is punishing everybody.
Another solution, which I've seen tossed around, is to make an item BOP or BOE depending on whether you won it by needing or greeding. And, naturally, only allowing people who can use the item need on it. This will motivate even people who can need choose greed if they intend to sell it or give it to friends. It's really an elegant solution.
....all you people realize you can already set loot drops, right? At the beginning of the run, the party leader simply changes it from "need or greed" to say..."round robin" or even "leader decides".
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
please no one earns anything its a game.
There are already "Cannot sell" items in the game. If they get no profit from needing they won't do it.
I believe I mentioned that a page before or so.
As Jadedragon and logisitcs mentioned, though, if you make things BoP the poblem doesn't go away. People will still need on everything or greed on items others don't use.
So BoP simply kills the great long term effects of BoE. BoP has it's purpose but it's not to prevent people from trying to claim all of the loot. I'm not sure why that seems to have become MMO Standard.
And it is important to note the Need/Greed/Pass system is simply the default system as clcmercy stated. It can be changed by the party leader at any time. If you're the party leader, change it! Or ask for it to be changed.
Ok so you want to make everything unsellable if it's BoP.
That will get real boring real fast...
You need an incentive to play as well as an incentive to steal. Your suggestion would kill the incentive of getting drops for everybody.
Please elaborate how making boss drops BoP if NEEDed would do that. No one needed the item and you got it? Great. Now you can give it to a friend or an alt or sell it on the exchange.
Well, I'm not saying they earned their boss drops in the same way that a soldier earns the Medal of Honor. But they did earn it, as opposed to someone who pays real money to get it. This is basic game logic, basic RPG logic. If I'm playing Baldur's Gate or something, I know there will be some gear I can only get by completing quests or beating certain monsters, why isn't anyone complaining that there should have been a vendor that sold you all the gear in the game in Baldur's Gate? Why didn't anyone think he was punished for being forced to fight dragons if he wanted to get what they drop?
If it's only from needing it wouldn't be an big issue. I didn't notice you only wanted to apply that for needing an item. That's fine in my books.
I thought you were suggesting make everything BoP and "Cannot Sell."
This. Why run dungeons if the incentive is no longer there? This is an RPG after all and part of the fun is acquiring new loot through challenges.
I run dungeons because they are fun, everyone else I know runs them for the same reason, while the complaining may indicate otherwise not that many people gets their underoos in a wad over "Earning stuff" I mean it's great and all that you do, but putting your standards off on others isn't going to work.
Playing for nothing because everything is BoP isn't fun for me. Or rather the better term would be thrilling. Getting that rare drop worth a lot isn't why I play but it's an important factor in keeping even the unlucky people like me playing.
For me, though, while making money is all fine and dandy...
The real reward is being able to help friends. Getting thousands of AD is awesome.
But helping a friend is priceless.
And losing that to BoP would be horrible any day of the week...especially because the problem wouldn't be solved by making items Bind on Pickup but still remaining salable to the merchants.
Oh I agree I just don't think BOP is the way to go here, I think an expanded system that kept things as is but included a chance to dropped personalized loot might be a better thought than just individual loot for all. I mean it wouldn't be all that painful to lose that Dagger of infinite darkness to the control wizard if you knew there was also a chance to get it on your individual drop.
Yeah, that would be silly.
Personally I have no problems with people getting the gear without running the dungeon. I just hate it when games end up like STO where 'greed' is the same as 'pass' or when the actual chance of getting an upgrade is the drop% / 5.
You know, I usually wait for somebody else to need on something they clearly do not need before I click need.
Well, from what you are saying, you don't care about gear, that means that your underoos shall remain unwaded even if the system will not allow you to need on stuff you can't use. So what are you complaining about? You'll still have your fun running the dungeon. I just want to minimize the possibility of players being griefed. Which currently happens, in almost every single pug.
There's a point where being too much of a fanboy hurts the thing you care about. The system I proposed doesn't hurt your fun and doesn't even prevent the people who consider that they are entitled to dungeon loot without running the dungeon from getting it, so why be against it when everybody truly wins here?
This...
I paid for the game and I want it to succeed. But with the way the end game is structured, I would've thought twice before making that Founders pack purchase. Don't let fanboyism cloud your judgement and overall picture
-implement a specific class setting to the loot settings and no more ninja-ing and crying!!
Centurion maximus92
12th Legion, Romulan Republic
12th Fleet
=\/= ================================ =\/=