Tanks and DPS players: Know your role

tekaru · May 2013

Unless I'm mistaken, I thought the tally sheet at the end of a dungeon/skirmish should look like this:

Most Damage Taken
Tank
DPS
DPS
DPS
Healer

and

Most Enemy Kills
DPS
DPS
DPS
Tank
Healer

but what I'm constantly seeing is something like

Most Damage Taken
DPS
DPS
Tank
Healer
DPS

and

Most Enemy Kills
Tank
DPS
DPS
DPS
Healer

(which is sometimes accompanied by)

Most Times Fallen
DPS 2
DPS 1
DPS 1
Tank 0
Healer 0

(which could easily be)

Most Times Fallen

(everybody) 0

If people would just play their roles!

loonavercity1 · May 2013

DPS are sometimes a pain in the HAMSTER, but could it also be down to bad tanking skills? That's another thing that can be a pain in the HAMSTER. I wouldn't really know how the game though yet, to be honest. I haven't played yet. Still downloading

tekaru · May 2013

A quicker way to say it would be: DPS PICK UP THE ADDS!

psiwuff · May 2013

Personally mostly I see stuff like:

Most damage taken:
Tank
Healer
DPS
DPS
DPS

Most damage done:
DPS
Healer
DPS
Tank
DPS

At least thats how it was the last few matches I played as healer. I already go for aggro reduction and ration my heals, but if people can't be bothered to burn/CC adds, I'm pretty much getting to kite them. I dont even know how I range second on DPS most the time either as a DC, but apparently I manage to do just that, only outrun by a rogue generally.

tekaru · May 2013

exactly. I see that, too. The healer shouldn't be near the top of the "damage taken" list!

I suppose I could be mistaken?

someoneod · May 2013

Or you could be a DPS tank and do multiple roles! woo GWF (who needs a shield!)

presilk · May 2013

It's usually dps jumping the gun and wanting to lay down as much dps for that winning score at the end.

I've always disliked the use of tally's during/after a fight,it creates unwanted, unnesessary chaos where a dps thinks his worth as a good player all comes down to the amount of damage they dished out. Good dps is essential yes, but pushes them sometimes into combat a tad too earily where the tank and healer have huge difficulty trying to apply their roles into the havoc.

Was sad to see it built into the game so no choice but to have it present every run. But then again, That could be the slight D&D element of the game where stats are very important so /shrug.

In our eq2 guild once we baned spamming the tally after a boss fight, we achieved so much more where people were able to concentrate on their roles a lot more without those 'Am I winning?' questions haunting one as they raided.

I've seen many so far, keep dpsing that mob where they should be getting out of that big red splat zone instead. but to do so, may cost them that top score.....

jerict · May 2013

Ive only ran a few dungeons since i picked up the game earlier this week but as a cleric i am usually at the top of damage taken and nobody in the group gets the idea to get HAMSTER off me. I will say though that trying to heal a tank or a melee while they are in a group with themselves plus all 5 companions are nearly impossible. I just have to keep the debuff on the boss or most threatening mob that lets people heal themselves and spam my aoe heal on cd and hope i crit with everything else to throw out a few more heals. Generally it works but I have had some close calls.

xantris · May 2013

tekaru wrote: »

Unless I'm mistaken, I thought the tally sheet at the end of a dungeon/skirmish should look like this:

Most Damage Taken
Tank
DPS
DPS
DPS
Healer

and

Most Enemy Kills
DPS
DPS
DPS
Tank
Healer

but what I'm constantly seeing is something like

Most Damage Taken
DPS
DPS
Tank
Healer
DPS

and

Most Enemy Kills
Tank
DPS
DPS
DPS
Healer

(which is sometimes accompanied by)

Most Times Fallen
DPS 2
DPS 1
DPS 1
Tank 0
Healer 0

(which could easily be)

Most Times Fallen

(everybody) 0

If people would just play their roles!

You are actually incorrect. Most of the time it will be this in Neverwinter, by design.

Damage taken:
Healer
Tank
DPS
DPS
DPS

Enemies killed:
AOE (aka GWF,cw,gf)
single target

decubis · May 2013

A good tank doesn't take damage he blocks/evades it and for last hits GF has a good AoE fast hitting strike so high chance of last hits. But overal i agree with your point people need to play their role.

It is very annoying when dpsers start pulling everything or start AoE damage from the first sec of a pull(and then wonder why all the mobbs are on them).

tekaru · May 2013

again, I'm asking for discussion, but I think the Tank should be taking the most damage. Yes, he should be blocking/avoiding, but he ALSO should be absorbing the big boss hits, keeping the adds focused on him, etc.

My point is, if the DPS were doing there jobs, and picking up their adds, they would get the most kills and stop taking the most damage. too often, I see them trying to tank the boss, and that's all they do, so they get the "most damage dealt" tally at the end.

shadow71 · May 2013

decubis wrote: »

A good tank doesn't take damage he blocks/evades it and for last hits GF has a good AoE fast hitting strike so high chance of last hits. But overal i agree with your point people need to play their role.

It is very annoying when dpsers start pulling everything or start AoE damage from the first sec of a pull(and then wonder why all the mobbs are on them).

I don't know how long you have been playing a tank however you are wrong there bud. Tanks should be the number 1 in most damage taken, it is the reason for the high amount of health tanks are required to have within a group. Tanks can't not and will not dodge/block/evade 100% of damage and if you tell me that you are doing that I believe we all can call you are liar. Yes tanks are there for a reason we are the Meatshields of the group and we are what any mobs or bosses are suppose to target always so if that mob/boss is targeting you he/she is doing damage reguarless and who do you think this damage is going to?

deistik · May 2013

This is what my last Pirate run looked like:

Damage Taken:
GF
GWF
Rogue
CW
Cleric

Damage Done
GWF
CW
Rogue
GF
Cleric

Enemies Slain
GWF
GF
CW
Rogue
Cleric

Healing Done
Cleric
GF
CW
Rogue
GWF

I'd say that's pretty optimal, which means the title of this thread is apt.

blaumker · May 2013

Healers will draw lots of aggro and take tons of damage because they will throw tons of AE healing effects down. They will do this because DPS will hit anything that comes within ten paces of within range of them, the blood will be glorious.

A tank is incompetent if they do not take the most damage in the group. We will take that damage despite double or triple the mitigation and avoidance values of the DPS and healers. It will happen for a couple of reasons, the primary reason being encounters that are designed to be tanked---if DPS survives the hits, a tank didn't need to take them. The secondary reason it will happen is all the getting slapped in the back that will happen due to paragraph one.

I've been tanking for a touch over a decade, in a multitude of games. The tanking style in this game seems to be "loose", which is something I like. That is to say, a tank doesn't really need to grab every single last swing from every single mob to get the job done. Point heavy hitters and conal attacks away from the group, lay down heavy AE aggro when you can, obey the "stay out of fire" rules that DPS have to follow, and fight like hell to maintain threat. The ability to outright peel seems somewhat limited, which means having an overpowering level of threat is the nature of the business. You could do a whole lot worse than this model.

And frankly, be soft on tanks at first, there is a whole new crop that are learning threat control for the first time because, you see, a certain game will a subscriber base in the millions dumbed tanking down to a pecking bird and repeating macro. I won't say what game that was, but WOW did they ever screw it up.

idontcomehere · May 2013

GWF's sometimes intentionally take damage to fuel their Determination. I do it cuz i got a healer companion.

erppman · May 2013

The game mechanics are what make the "dungeon stats" at the end, look the way they do.

#1 Tanks. Impossible for tanks to actually hold aggro on everything, like they can in a "conventional" MMO.

#2 Healers. The threat generated from healing is insane in this game. Add #1 + #2 = lots o' aggro on healer.

#3 Healers. Healers take on a lot of aggro, but have a fraction of the defense of a tank. Thus the "damage taken" will be higher. Even if they have "less" aggro. The hits they DO take, will hit for much more.

As for Tanks/Healers having more damage done, that is simply your DPS'ers being bad, or very undergeared.

I have completed through all T2 Epics, and it has been a VERY VERY long time since i've seen anything other than DPS in the top 3 slots. Most likely, you are simply seeing the result of lower level players not having the gear/spec to do more damage.

The damage part will look more "correct" once you start doing end-game content.

Generally, I see the following

Damage Taken
Tank
Healer
DPS
DPS
DPS

Damage Dealt
DPS
DPS
DPS
Healer/Tank (they flipflop from time to time, but seem to be very equal)

tekaru · May 2013

I see what you did there..

deistik, that's pretty much what I think should happen.
maybe we just need to tell DPS players to compete for kills, not highest damage.

deistik · May 2013

idontcomehere wrote: »

i got a healer companion.

So does ours... me

lol

But he takes the second amount of damage also because he's rounding up (and destroying) the adds.

tekaru · May 2013

erppman, I think you are playing with better skilled players, or players that know their roles. part of my point is that the Tank should NOT have the most kills.

borak2 · May 2013

I use a Dwarven GF named Kyran Bloodaxe. I must have run that cloak tower dungeon about 30 times and on every run I topped the damage taken stat and on 90% of the runs I also topped the Damage done tab.

Holding aggro is not hard at all in this game if you build for it and do your job. I think I run a pretty good tank and I'm sure the people that ran the dungeons and skirmishes would agree I did my job.

I was able to keep every boss on me on each run. From my experience over the last few days. The DPS need to pick it up a notch. I should not be out damaging anyone.

someoneod · May 2013

As someone did mention, the way the determination mechanic for GWF works means that fairly often they will be intentionally running in front of an attack to recharge their meter; they could in theory lead to fairly high damage taken.

deistik · May 2013

erppman wrote: »

#3 Healers. Healers take on a lot of aggro, but have a fraction of the defense of a tank. Thus the "damage taken" will be higher. Even if they have "less" aggro. The hits they DO take, will hit for much more.

Generally, I see the following

Damage Taken
Tank
Healer
DPS
DPS
DPS

I'm at the bottom of the damage taken list because a) our GWF is crazy good at add control, and b) if something's going to hit me, I move.

kotli · May 2013

Question does the list include companions? If so then any companions but Cat and Ion stones will mess up the counts.
Note tank pets are huge agro magnets dont matter what I do as tank if a tank pet is out he will grab agro off me no matter what (unless we are fighting different mobs).
Lastly Tanks cant taunt/threat manage everything in a boss fight I have to either tank boss or tank minions cant do both (out side of the AOE taunt but then I get swamped and are in trouble). You need two tanks one for boss and one for adds if your trying to minimize damage taken by non-tanks.

Also remember tank have higher AC and defence than the DPS or healer = less damage taken per attack, looking at the Diamond Bazar shop GF base defence is 150% of the DC = we take ~30% less damage due to defence and then theres extra AC and feat bonuses = even less damage taken so I guess we take less than 50% the damage a DC does per hit.

Lastly does Blocked damage count in damage meter? I think it don't.

glas0 · May 2013

jerict wrote: »

Ive only ran a few dungeons since i picked up the game earlier this week but as a cleric i am usually at the top of damage taken and nobody in the group gets the idea to get HAMSTER off me. I will say though that trying to heal a tank or a melee while they are in a group with themselves plus all 5 companions are nearly impossible. I just have to keep the debuff on the boss or most threatening mob that lets people heal themselves and spam my aoe heal on cd and hope i crit with everything else to throw out a few more heals. Generally it works but I have had some close calls.

Yep, been there, done that. I usually just run in circles, throw a healing word when a charge is up (and hope it lands on someone who really needs it), a little healing aoe + debuff on the biggest mob, then i dps because i can heal stuff when i hit ennemies. Healing mechanics really need some serious revamping.

savlin · May 2013

As a GWF I know how to keep adds off of the healer that is my job and I take it seriously. At the end of a run though its hard not to want to compete for that extra damage and just ignore what is going on around me. What is your class Tekaru I couldn't tell by reading your posts?

NVM saw it. It might just be the level you're at then.

kotli · May 2013

Oh and the guy talking about kill count you do relize this means that guy got the last hit since tanks have a few AOEs including our main agro grab is it not that surprising that they some times get high kill counts. Note I seen a guy with the lowest total damage top the kill count.

deistik · May 2013

Kill count means nothing. I just included it for reference

icyclass · May 2013

jerict wrote: »

I will say though that trying to heal a tank or a melee while they are in a group with themselves plus all 5 companions [is] nearly impossible.

Amen. Other classes: if you need heeling you need to back off for a second so you can be targeted.
Also, the speed-running doesn't help. I love it when the guy with the lowest health charges off while my healing is still on cooldown.

juneaux6 · May 2013

100,000 AD says this guy plays a rogue and runs in before the tank to try and pad the damage meters and then gets a heal from the cleric who then in turn gets all the aggro.

As a GF tank, if a dps jumps the gun and pulls a pack before me, they are on their own. My job is not to hold threat off the dps, but to hold threat off the monster aggro that heals generate.

Know your role.

borak2 · May 2013

juneaux6 wrote: »

100,000 AD says this guy plays a rogue and runs in before the tank to try and pad the damage meters and then gets a heal from the cleric who then in turn gets all the aggro.

As a GF tank, if a dps jumps the gun and pulls a pack before me, they are on their own. My job is not to hold threat off the dps, but to hold threat off the monster aggro that heals generate.

Know your role.

I agree 100%. It's simple to let the tank jump in first and then charge. If you beat me to the punch don't cry when you faceplant

eggsn · May 2013

Not a fan of those meters.

In BW4, we've got a CW that only focuses on as much damage as can be done so she shows up #1 on the meter rather than "controlling" the mobs and getting it off the healer. In another case we had a GWF that only focused on the boss. Needless to say sometimes it only takes 1 player to wipe the group.

Best groups I'm in is when GWF focuses on adds as an Off-tank, CW herds the adds for slaughter while keeping tabs on the healer, and a rogue who knows when to back off the damage a sec on the boss to let the GF get more agro, and of course a GF that knows how to position himself and the mob. As a healer, I'm not perfect but I do know not to AE damage/heal unless someone has hit it first and not to put the HW BEFORE engaging, plus move the HAMSTER around and learn to kite mobs until the wizard or GWF can kick it off you. I do not engage my heals immediately once we start, I give it a few secs during boss fights and back off on healing a sec as necessary and let the tick healing do the job. I believe the same should work on the DPSers, wait a sec for the tank to get in position and then engage once agro is established, back off as needed.

Having the meter sometimes messes people up. It's not about who's on top or who should be in the bottom. It's about NOT WIPING and downing the boss AS A TEAM.

That being said, I've seen more and more people learn the game mechanics and I do see improvement. Case in point, I barely have to move in one dungeon fight cause the wizard was on top of CC on ANY mob that is even near me, AND that same wizard barely got agro herself. I was able to heal everybody only moving to target the necessary group member. The rogue was backing off the boss even if he's full health, because he's managing his agro as needed and was pretty independent.

That said, there was one situation where everyone was doing their job and the Man-At-Arms companion tanked the boss the entire time... Our tank, who does his job really well who throughout the dungeon and multiple boss fights on other dungeons showed he know how to play, was... p i s s e d. So I guess that's why we have "betas" for these games

.

Tanks and DPS players: Know your role

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