It also goes back to my post. 4E in my eyes made combat way more entertaining. It did nothing to stop you from roleplaying the way you want or making epic storylines.
I legitimately never understood a lot of the hate 4E got and gets. I suppose I never will.
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
It also goes back to my post. 4E in my eyes made combat way more entertaining. It did nothing to stop you from roleplaying the way you want or making epic storylines.
I legitimately never understood a lot of the hate 4E got and gets. I suppose I never will.
Oh I agree 4th Edition is a fine game. It isn't 1st - 3rd Edition but on its own merits it plays just fine and is fun. The problem only ever was that it is naturally compared to 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5. The rules changed just to much for some people to be comfortable still calling it D&D. ::Shrug::
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oliinMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It also goes back to my post. 4E in my eyes made combat way more entertaining. It did nothing to stop you from roleplaying the way you want or making epic storylines.
I legitimately never understood a lot of the hate 4E got and gets. I suppose I never will.
People who really like something very often hate what changes it. I think a lot of the hate for 4th edition is simply because it's not 3rd edition.
This isn't me looking down on 4th edition, I didn't play anything past 2nd Edition as I found out about Hackmaster. Who knew I wanted a ruleset that was MORE complicated, not less!
There are obviously those that wanted the opposite of what I was looking for. Those people play 4th edition. There is nothing wrong with that, we probably wouldn't like playing together anyway as a mutual thing.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
I hate this argument... I'm just gonna get that out of the way at the start of it.
I'm a DM, currently a 4th Edition DM at that. I've been playing and running D&D games since I was very young, played each edition to an extent. I didn't want to play Pathfinder, because if I wanted to play that I'd just play 3.5e.
D&D to me is storytelling, that is all it is. From the earliest point when I played D&D it was just a bunch of friends, some dice, maps, and markers. When I see people yelling about how 4e killed D&D I just am lost and don't understand. People near me also say the same thing about 4e, I've sat in on their 3.5e games and hated how they ran their games. Literally rule <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, mid-maxers, and just over all their attempt to break the game. I don't play D&D that way. When I craft my story I also set guidelines to my players to not allow the game to be broken, or make changes to the rule set as we play to work out any problem.
Now I read a few posts on here where people were talking about that 4e ruined the game by changing the lore. So my response to that is, So? No edition has changed lore on my game worlds. I crafted my story, I build my world, and my players build characters for that world. Yes I use D&D gods, but they are my D&D gods, my versions of them. I never take directly from another author's work. I'd never dream of having Drizzit appear in my game worlds. Salvatore has Drizzit, I have my own characters, nations, cities.
When I see people going literally by the rules and settings given to you by the books, I feel you just missed a great opportunity to be creative and artistic.
People need to understand that Neverwinter is an action MMO set in the world of Forgotten Realms. Its not a literally translation of 4e, 3.5e, or 2nd. I look at this game as the developers versions of D&D. Yes it borrows references from 4e, like the names of abilities you can use in both games, but if they were literally the same then my Cleric could only use his daily angel smash ability only once in a 24 hour period or I couldn't heal someone more then 3 times until all the monsters were dead.. not to also mention I'd have Second Wind to heal myself once an encounter. This is a video game, not a PnP game. Realize that now, or you'll never enjoy the game at all. If you want to play PnP then go get a group together and play it. If you want to play a Video Game based on D&D settings then you might get into this.
Let's be honest, the argument over 3.5 Ed. and 4.0 is down to one thing and one thing only: player opinion. There is clearly good and bad to be said about both and we just have to deal with the fact that 3.5 is dead in the water. Is it so impossible to like both? I do. 3.5 I have loved and adored for years. 4.0 is if I am honest, not my favourite but it is fun non-the-less. Don't like 4.0? Don't play the game!
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awesismMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
For me, what's lacking is any feeling of being unique in the slightest. I don't feel that I've made a choice over each individual aspect of my character, 'you're this class so you wear this armour and use this weapon' just seems crazy to me in the D&D universe. I played 4th Ed once and I don't remember if it worked the same way or not, but I feel just like every other character of my class in the game. The only options I seem to have are which powers to use and even then it's not that much choice and cookie cutter builds will always win.
I agree with the argument about character customisation. This was one of the MANY reasons I hated Diablo 3. Although with this game it seems less of an issue. I suppose all we can do is wait and see if they improve this. It is still early on in it's life-cycle after-all.
Your not wrong to be confused...poor Gygax is having seizures in the astral plane as we speak. Yes, 4.0 RUINED the D&D universe as we veterans know it. They didnt fully remove skill checks in the normal table top game, but as this is a MMO, they kinda had to bend the rules a bit to allow smoother and more interesting gameplay. They took most of 4.0, married it a bit with a few minute 3.5 rules, and streamlined it into this MMO for all those D&D cretins that dont know how the system works.
As for 4.0, yes it is boring, and it wont ever be any good again. They simplified the skill check from around 40+ skills to 13, and they gave everyone powers. Remember D&D soft level cap of 20, then you reached epic status and had to walk down the path of the prestige, where you nearly became godlike? Yeah, thats standard issue in 4.0 where the normal soft cap is 50. They also gave all these classes powers, like they are some sort of crazy superheroes who trot around like a god amongst men with a higher level of stature. No more are the days of working out a story and becoming a great adventurer, you now start as a hero.
Overall, 4.0 ruined tabletop D&D, and this is just an even more simplified and streamlined version of that. But they have to bend the rules to even more shameful levels in order to fit into standard MMO mindsets. Otherwise, is a fun game if you try to forget that its a D&D game, just like AuctionHouse Simulator is fun when you not think about the fact that its a Diablo game.
lol wut. 4e level cap is 30, not 50. This game bears no resemblance to it except names and art.
Pretty much everything you said except for the number of skills (the skills are broad now, instead of specific) and that everyone has powers (which has nothing to do with superheroes of the power level of the game) is wrong. You clearly have not the faintest clue what the hell you're talking about.
For me, what's lacking is any feeling of being unique in the slightest. I don't feel that I've made a choice over each individual aspect of my character, 'you're this class so you wear this armour and use this weapon' just seems crazy to me in the D&D universe. I played 4th Ed once and I don't remember if it worked the same way or not, but I feel just like every other character of my class in the game. The only options I seem to have are which powers to use and even then it's not that much choice and cookie cutter builds will always win.
It doesnt' work the same. 4e has such a large breadth of options at every single level, that many complain that there's too much. They're crazy, IMO, but they do it. I've played 4 different warlock characters, and none of them played the same. Everyone I know who plays 4e has the same experience. The level of customization potential in 4e, especially at this point in it's life, is remarkable.
4th edition is not DnD; not the way I learned it, not the way some of us played it, not the way it's used in the game. But here's the thing - so what? Really, I have been GMing for twenty years and played many, many systems in that time, (once upon a time a good GM was measured by how many systems she knew; these days it's d20 everywhere - or it was until recently) some of 'em I've loved and some of 'em I've hated ... some of them I've hated alot. But that's all this system is, a different game, like any other strange new game you might pick off the shelf in your FLGS. Is it irritating that it uses the DnD name? Sure, but we're grown ups and we still have our 2nd edition books, so who cares? (There are an easy dozen different rpg systems I could recommend if DnD isn't doing if for ya anymore. Indi games are in their golden age with options like Kickstarter out there.)
With that out of the way ... I would have liked the system to be more like it was in NWN 1&2; you got me there. This new system isn't as fiddly as that ... and I like fiddly. But it's an MMO, not a single player game like those were either, and it has a different - bigger - crowd to please. I am really enjoying it for the things that are there:
Find/Remove Traps, oh how I've missed ye! (though pick pockets and set traps would have been nice, too);
Resource nodes being different for each class is brilliant (and being able to buy the kits means that my Thief can still delve that dungeon with her good old Indiana Jones kit ... just hope it isn't too old or it might break);
Dialogue choices based on skills. Being a Thief I sometimes get access to dialogue options I wouldn't if I were a Cleric or a Mage, and vice-versa, and sure it may not mean much, but in the conversation it makes you feel a little cooler.
But the one thing that brings me to this game, and will keep me here for a very long time, is the Player Created Content. This turned NWN 1 into one of the greatest computer games I've ever got to play because I always had options, always had new choices and new adventures. We're already seeing stuff pumped out through the Foundry and the game hasn't officially launched yet. So, whatever system they want to use, as long as it isn't unplayable, it shouldn't matter; so long as it doesn't hobble the stories waiting to be told.
Comments
It also goes back to my post. 4E in my eyes made combat way more entertaining. It did nothing to stop you from roleplaying the way you want or making epic storylines.
I legitimately never understood a lot of the hate 4E got and gets. I suppose I never will.
Oh I agree 4th Edition is a fine game. It isn't 1st - 3rd Edition but on its own merits it plays just fine and is fun. The problem only ever was that it is naturally compared to 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5. The rules changed just to much for some people to be comfortable still calling it D&D. ::Shrug::
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
People who really like something very often hate what changes it. I think a lot of the hate for 4th edition is simply because it's not 3rd edition.
Alot of hate for 4th ed is because they oversimplified it. They took this wonderful, complex, deep and intuitive game and made D&D for Dummies.
There are obviously those that wanted the opposite of what I was looking for. Those people play 4th edition. There is nothing wrong with that, we probably wouldn't like playing together anyway as a mutual thing.
I'm a DM, currently a 4th Edition DM at that. I've been playing and running D&D games since I was very young, played each edition to an extent. I didn't want to play Pathfinder, because if I wanted to play that I'd just play 3.5e.
D&D to me is storytelling, that is all it is. From the earliest point when I played D&D it was just a bunch of friends, some dice, maps, and markers. When I see people yelling about how 4e killed D&D I just am lost and don't understand. People near me also say the same thing about 4e, I've sat in on their 3.5e games and hated how they ran their games. Literally rule <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, mid-maxers, and just over all their attempt to break the game. I don't play D&D that way. When I craft my story I also set guidelines to my players to not allow the game to be broken, or make changes to the rule set as we play to work out any problem.
Now I read a few posts on here where people were talking about that 4e ruined the game by changing the lore. So my response to that is, So? No edition has changed lore on my game worlds. I crafted my story, I build my world, and my players build characters for that world. Yes I use D&D gods, but they are my D&D gods, my versions of them. I never take directly from another author's work. I'd never dream of having Drizzit appear in my game worlds. Salvatore has Drizzit, I have my own characters, nations, cities.
When I see people going literally by the rules and settings given to you by the books, I feel you just missed a great opportunity to be creative and artistic.
People need to understand that Neverwinter is an action MMO set in the world of Forgotten Realms. Its not a literally translation of 4e, 3.5e, or 2nd. I look at this game as the developers versions of D&D. Yes it borrows references from 4e, like the names of abilities you can use in both games, but if they were literally the same then my Cleric could only use his daily angel smash ability only once in a 24 hour period or I couldn't heal someone more then 3 times until all the monsters were dead.. not to also mention I'd have Second Wind to heal myself once an encounter. This is a video game, not a PnP game. Realize that now, or you'll never enjoy the game at all. If you want to play PnP then go get a group together and play it. If you want to play a Video Game based on D&D settings then you might get into this.
NWN1, Escape from Undeath: Mistlocke (also known as EFUM).
Best hardcore RP module hosted by some amazing DM's.
The fact that this game is based in Faerun and on 4.x is more of a novelty than a selling point for me.
Many said the same thing about third edition, which is infinitely simpler than 2nd Edition AD&D. Didn't make 3rd Edition suck though.
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
lol wut. 4e level cap is 30, not 50. This game bears no resemblance to it except names and art.
Pretty much everything you said except for the number of skills (the skills are broad now, instead of specific) and that everyone has powers (which has nothing to do with superheroes of the power level of the game) is wrong. You clearly have not the faintest clue what the hell you're talking about.
It doesnt' work the same. 4e has such a large breadth of options at every single level, that many complain that there's too much. They're crazy, IMO, but they do it. I've played 4 different warlock characters, and none of them played the same. Everyone I know who plays 4e has the same experience. The level of customization potential in 4e, especially at this point in it's life, is remarkable.
With that out of the way ... I would have liked the system to be more like it was in NWN 1&2; you got me there. This new system isn't as fiddly as that ... and I like fiddly. But it's an MMO, not a single player game like those were either, and it has a different - bigger - crowd to please. I am really enjoying it for the things that are there:
Find/Remove Traps, oh how I've missed ye! (though pick pockets and set traps would have been nice, too);
Resource nodes being different for each class is brilliant (and being able to buy the kits means that my Thief can still delve that dungeon with her good old Indiana Jones kit ... just hope it isn't too old or it might break);
Dialogue choices based on skills. Being a Thief I sometimes get access to dialogue options I wouldn't if I were a Cleric or a Mage, and vice-versa, and sure it may not mean much, but in the conversation it makes you feel a little cooler.
But the one thing that brings me to this game, and will keep me here for a very long time, is the Player Created Content. This turned NWN 1 into one of the greatest computer games I've ever got to play because I always had options, always had new choices and new adventures. We're already seeing stuff pumped out through the Foundry and the game hasn't officially launched yet. So, whatever system they want to use, as long as it isn't unplayable, it shouldn't matter; so long as it doesn't hobble the stories waiting to be told.