Stat Weighting

hipolipolopigus · April 2013

Some of you may be aware that the "Recommended Item" system is beyond a joke, not actually taking stats into account but assuming that higher level items are better;

So I'd like to start weighting the stats appropriately for each class/play style. While Neverwinter appears to avoid mentioning the holy trinity of Tank, DPS and Healing, it's definitely present throughout the classes, though there is the option of dedicated Crowd Control... But heh. So, here's what I have so far. Let me know what you think!

Play Style - DPS

Power > Critical Strike = Armor Penetration > Movement = Recovery

Power takes priority, as it directly contributes to your damage while Critical Strike and Armor Penetration are secondary because they indirectly contribute to it. Movement is useful for dodging nasty boss attacks (Preventing you from being put into a prone state) and recovery means you can use your abilities closer together.

Play Style - Healing

Power > Critical Strike > Recovery = Movement

Healers should keep in mind that they're always secondary DPS. Don't do nothing if there's nothing to heal, damage things! Power and Critical Strike (If crit. heals exist, not sure on this one) will greatly improve both your healing and damage output. Recovery will mean you can use your Encounter heals more frequently and Movement will mean you can dodge boss attacks (If necessary, which it shouldn't be) and heal those affected immediately.

Play Style - Tank

Defence > Power = Deflect > Recovery

I haven't played a GF yet, so these are based the gear available from the AD vendor and through Platesmithing. I'll assume power's there for passive aggro when your abilities are on cooldown.

Play Style - Crowd Control
This one will require some discussion... Though, like healers, CCs should be secondary DPS. Having a dedicated CC would be useful, though probably not preferable over a DPS or healer.

Power Calculation

Your damage bonus as a percentage can be calculated with p / 2500 where p is the power rating. If you want the percentage bonus as an actual percentage (4.8 instead of 0.048), change the formula to p / 25. This means that the power improvements for enchants based on rank are as follows;

0.8% bonus
1.6% bonus
2.6% bonus
3.6% bonus
4.8% bonus

solthusx2 · April 2013

I find that it tends to favor +movement and +HP over everything else on boots including one case whre it recommended a lower level boots over a higher level one that is superior in every stat except for +movement

nheverly · April 2013

Wouldn't stat weighing vary on a class to class basis?

purutzil · April 2013

nheverly wrote: »

Wouldn't stat weighing vary on a class to class basis?

Pretty much. Each stat has its own benefit and it depends a lot on numbers and 'diminishing returns' of sorts. While it works as a very simple formula to list it as is, at certain points Critical Chance can outweigh power in reaching a particular value might be more benefitial then just raising the raw damage as hitting constant crits can outweigh more steady white hits.

Its hard to ever really put a good stat weight in place since it varies greatly on your current stats and the mechanics the game has in play in how effective something might be.

hipolipolopigus · April 2013

nheverly wrote: »

Wouldn't stat weighing vary on a class to class basis?

This is correct, though, for the most part, the basic concepts are the same. I imagine TRs would have higher weights on crit and movement, for example.

therepster · April 2013

Stop taking the enchant into consideration

47 power and 47 Armor pen > 69 Armor pen.

It's not surprising that the item comparison engine can't handle all possible variations of enchants on an item. I've seen many MMOs that take quite some time to work that kink out of the system. We're still in Open Beta afterall.

Also, CC's main stat would probably end up being Recovery to shorten time frame between CC and keep targets debuffed, lockdowned, and whatnot.

Tanks need Power. They need ALL the power. Notice all the complaints about threat? More power on the GF ever so slightly helps with that. Or having the rest of the group sitting around playing cheerleader waiting for adds while the Tanks solos the boss with low heals, since high heals will pull threat, and CC.

hipolipolopigus · April 2013

therepster wrote: »

Tanks need Power. They need ALL the power. Notice all the complaints about threat? More power on the GF ever so slightly helps with that. Or having the rest of the group sitting around playing cheerleader waiting for adds while the Tanks solos the boss with low heals, since high heals will pull threat, and CC.

Not the case, heals just need less threat. Even seasoned tanks have difficulty keeping Clerics safe. These balance issues are to be expected, but hopefully won't last too long.

l1zardo1 · April 2013

What I find funny .... is that it shows a net loss. So why not use that as part of the formula to show 'recommended'

As for Power main on all you mentioned:

Its a static increase vs percentile. Which = very bad scaling.

Best to load up your attribute that conveys +% Damage, Recovery attr. as 2nd

then gear for Recovery>Crit>AP

tweak slightly depending on feats that scale well with a stat more than others

also tweak it a bit if you find yourself not on CD very often. Can drop rec as main at that point.

unsure how much def is on mobs. Have yet to test much.

hipolipolopigus · April 2013

l1zardo1 wrote: »

What I find funny .... is that it shows a net loss. So why not use that as part of the formula to show 'recommended'

As for Power main on all you mentioned:

Its a static increase vs percentile. Which = very bad scaling.

Best to load up your attribute that conveys +% Damage, Recovery attr. as 2nd

then gear for Recovery>Crit>AP

tweak slightly depending on feats that scale well with a stat more than others

also tweak it a bit if you find yourself not on CD very often. Can drop rec as main at that point.

unsure how much def is on mobs. Have yet to test much.

I don't mention static amounts or percentages anywhere

The net amount is what matters.

hipolipolopigus · April 2013

hipolipolopigus wrote: »

Quickly starting a CW, 157 power gives 6.3% additional damage while 1150 power on my l30 GWF gives 46%.

Some quick math shows that 1150 is 46% of 2500 and that 157(.5) is 6.3% of 2500. So the basic formula for working out additional damage as a percentage is p / 2500 where p is your current power rating.

In response to this thread.

hipolipolopigus · April 2013

Added power -> damage calculation to the OP.

l1zardo1 · April 2013

Hmm so it isn't just +1 pt per 25 ?

I never did any testing, but that's what the tooltip says

That is what I meant by only a static increase. Your linked thread states a % as well.

Guess I will have to give it a try.

hipolipolopigus · April 2013

l1zardo1 wrote: »

Hmm so it isn't just +1 pt per 25 ?

No, but 25 will give 1% output increase.

nec0e · April 2013

for CC i tend to go Power > Recovery > crit > movement.

lexthegreat · April 2013

Good thread, thanks.

After switching my Rogue to focus more on Power than Crit, I am really noticing a huge improvement.

Which kind of defeats the purpose of having Dex as the main stat, but oh well.

hipolipolopigus · April 2013

nec0e wrote: »

for CC i tend to go Power > Recovery > crit > movement.

Seems reasonable, though I'm mildly skeptical of crit, even though CCs should be secondary DPS.

lexthegreat wrote: »

Good thread, thanks.

After switching my Rogue to focus more on Power than Crit, I am really noticing a huge improvement.

Which kind of defeats the purpose of having Dex as the main stat, but oh well.

Crit is important, but it's dependant on power, making it secondary. Glad I could help ^-^

misterianus · April 2013

Crit is important, but it's dependant on power, making it secondary. Glad I could help ^-^

Feels a little silly that DEX is the MAIN stat when the secondary stat is supperior, oversight perhaps?

notdrizzt · April 2013

misterianus wrote: »

Feels a little silly that DEX is the MAIN stat when the secondary stat is supperior, oversight perhaps?

Welcome to Cryptic.

Although honestly if Dex also increased Damage, the TR would be able to deflect everything, always crit, and deal extreme damage.

It was determined a long time ago that for the TR its Power>Crit>Pen>everything else. Check the old class forums.
Stat wise it is actually Str>Cha>Dex for PvE, and Str>Dex>Cha for PvP.

hipolipolopigus · May 2013

misterianus wrote: »

Feels a little silly that DEX is the MAIN stat when the secondary stat is supperior, oversight perhaps?

An interesting point. It may pay to raise it with them.

kotli · May 2013

OP umm that item is a slotted item as such it dont make your point as with out the bonus from slotted enchantment that item sucks. There are other items that would make your point better.

For Power VS AP this depends on the mob damage reduction, higher DR the better AP becomes since AP counters defence.

elyrielle · May 2013

I think recovery is being sold short. I get that it's more noticeable if each use of a power does more damage/crits more/etc but there is something to be said for more frequent use of a power, too. I judge it just below power and crit for my control wizard. My powers all hit really hard and I want them available more often too.

cihuacoatl · May 2013

Thanks for the Post.
As a GF(Tank) I will give my input on the topic

AC > Health > Defense > Deflect > Move > Power > Crit > Life Steal > Recovery

Now how much more value each of these stats hold is the hard part. In most cases it is very obvious... I assume once I get to 60 I will have to revisit this very rough value system. At least I hope we have options... and are not force to use one epic gear set that give us zero flexability.

Why I choose what I choose in the order that I have above:

AC - is mitigation
Health - I have a feeling block value is based on your total health (I could be wrong)
Defense - more mitigation but less impact than AC (much less)
Deflect - % chance to take 50% less damage. When multiple mobs are on you.. great stuff
Move - This is a very hard value to weigh... I have a feeling this could in some cases be greater than even deflect and others lower than Power. I personally like this stat and hold it in high value. Getting out of red faster is always better and is a must have for kiting which in this game is needed more than not.
Power ]- you need to damage to generate threat
Crit - same as power but too random to hold more value than power
Life Steal - Nearly worthless at 48 I have 22.5k hp... adding 20 hp per swing is not even a consideration when MOBs hit you for 4k
Recovery - This has zero value... use a potion.

elyrielle · May 2013

cihuacoatl wrote: »

[*]Recovery - This has zero value... use a potion.

Recovery in this game is haste, not health regen. You might have a different opinion of it knowing this - as it would make your taunts come back faster.

unspecifiederror · May 2013

hipolipolopigus wrote: »

Play Style - Healing
Power > Critical Strike > Recovery = Movement
Healers should keep in mind that they're always secondary DPS. Don't do nothing if there's nothing to heal, damage things! Power and Critical Strike (If crit. heals exist, not sure on this one) will greatly improve both your healing and damage output. Recovery will mean you can use your Encounter heals more frequently and Movement will mean you can dodge boss attacks (If necessary, which it shouldn't be) and heal those affected immediately.

I like the idea of your post, but this part is very, very wrong.

Recovery is a clerics #1 stat, period. 30% recharge rate is the bare minimum you should have at 60 so Astral Shield has a 100% up time. If you take the divinity when an encounter comes off CD you want lots of recovery. If you want to run the Allowed Ground spam build I use, or just AP building in general, you want mass recovery for the +AP building (I'm at +55% last time I checked). If you take the 5% of recovery becomes power will with Healer's Lore you want more recovery. Recovery is just the flat out best stat a cleric can stack, especially as a healer.

Crit is the second best stat. Heals DO crit. Repurpose Soul heals on crits. Crits build divine power faster (even faster with feats) and build AP faster. Crit is just an amazing stat for clerics all around and should be stacked before power.

Defense is the third stat to aim for. You're going to get hit by adds, a lot. You have to be able to take a beating.

Power is the fourth stat, but it mostly just happens without trying. I have 3.9k power, my highest stat, but I totally ignore power and never aim for it or even really acknowledge it.

The good news is cleric PvE purple gear is Power + Recovery + Crit + Defense. You really don't have a choice.

l1zardo1 · May 2013

Good call with the Power testing. It certainly does much more than the character sheet tooltip suggests.

Definitely adds a percentage damage/healing. You can actually just look at the change in the power tooltip effects while swapping gear around.

projx · May 2013

Great discussions this helped clarify things for me as I though 25 power was 1 damage not 1% due to other posts / threads.

Intuitively for the GWF:

Power > Defense > Crit = Recovery > ArPen

Defense loses value if A: You aren't human for def bonus B: You didn't take the you gain 20% of your defense as power feats. C: You didn't put your 3 human bonus feats into 15% more AC / Defense feats

cihuacoatl · May 2013

elyrielle wrote: »

Recovery in this game is haste, not health regen. You might have a different opinion of it knowing this - as it would make your taunts come back faster.

Very valid point... In this case I would place Recovery > Power

I would also agree with the OP on the Recovery being of equal value as Move (depending on the fight) and as a Tank you may even want 2 gear sets for situations.
( Yes buy more bags

to store that PvE tank gear and PVP gear )

The sad thing I knew this... but I am so use to recovery being of different value in other games it totally went over my head.

Thank you for pointing this out. Now you got me rethinking my gear... however I would have a hard time replacing AC/health/defense/deflect for recovery 90% of the time... I think.

stentorr · June 2013

Some of you may be aware that the "Recommended Item" system is beyond a joke, not actually taking stats into account but assuming that higher level items are better;

Near as I can tell, recommendations are based solely on which is worth the most copper.

heethin · July 2014

stentorr wrote: »

Near as I can tell, recommendations are based solely on which is worth the most copper.

I don't think that's it. If such a relationship exists, it's probably the other way around.

If you pull the enchant out of the calculation, the stats on the right are higher than the left. So, the thread has asked, "Why not include the enchantment? It isn't that hard to add it into the calculation."

Somebody has to make a call on this, and I'm fine with where the call landed. You are going to upset people either way you land.

If you can't use an enchant from an old weapon with a new weapon (as may be the case in the pic), you haven't lost anything. You can toss the enchant somewhere else... other gear, an artifact, more enchantment, a companion. So, yes, your character is *more likely* to be stronger if you use the weapon on the right.

The way it is done is the simplest concept to understand, comparing the natural stats on the two weapons. I'd say if you can't do your own compare between the number of enchantment slots, you will be severely challenged by other aspects of the game.

zebular · July 2014

Closed for Necromancy.

Rule 3.13 - No Necromancy
. . . If a thread has not been posted on in over thirty days, it likely contains out of date information or opinions. If you would like to continue such a discussion, please create a new thread to do so, or find an existing "living" one.

Stat Weighting

Comments