Yes but it doesn't change my thoughts on the issue, im sure some people will enjoy this change and find it interesting, its just not for me, so I will go the DPS/CC route instead.
I find it great that they are breaking away from the tank'n'spank aspect and putting more emphasis on player accountability and decision making.
Maybe it is just me who is sick and tired of people who want to be spoon fed, but I am more interested in this class more then ever after reading this post.
There's a huge difference between new good mechanics and new bad mechanics. You seem to be attracted to the "new" element of it to the point you're overlooking the "bad" element of it. They could achieve roughly the same new and interesting system by making Marked a flat duration buff that is refreshed when you attack the target while Guarded. This would give you a chance to rebuild back up Guard in between refreshing your Aggro mechanic and still keep the needing to Guard.
If they don't, Clerics better get ready to nut up because they're going to basically be tanking everything but the main boss.
Yes but it doesn't change my thoughts on the issue, im sure some people will enjoy this change and find it interesting, its just not for me, so I will go the DPS/CC route instead.
The CC is pretty epic. With CW's around I don't even bother trying to tank trash because the mobs are CC'd permanently to the point they can't even hit anyone if they tried.
Have you spec'd into the feats that reduce threat, that helped with me and I would only pull massive aggro if I ran a forgemasters flame off a boss just as adds came in.
Also, have you given the tanks sufficient time to build up aggro before you started spamming heals all over? The seals heal everyone who is hitting the mobs, so throwing down an astral shield or some other big heal will build up a lot of aggro fast.
I think for these situations in other games you have a 'passivity' skill which instantly lowers threat that is on a timer. Perhaps we need that?
The mark that you place on mobs. Is that on a cooldown ? Or when the mark drops can you place it right back on again ?
The mark can be placed using the single target version (Tab) instantly and repeatedly or with AOE taunt which will place it automatically on all targets that get hit with Taunt.
The issue here can be that there's an animation for Mark that takes up time. So you go to put it on the target and it swings it immediately comes right back off. Depending on the boss/creature and their attack rate it can be impossible to put back on cause you can't get back into Guard mode before the animation is done and you get hit before the animation stops. In cases of super slow attacks it's extremely easy while you might have to spam it a bit before it sticks and you can get into guard mode on regular attack speed mobs. Mobs with rapid attacks and otherwise you basically gotta back out to reapply it then re-approach with Guard up. All of that wastes time building threat while your allies just keep going full tilt and it's pretty easy to lose aggro at that stage forcing you to Taunt. When trying to tank multiple targets, that animation time makes it impossible to keep on multiples without Taunt up because you'll go to Mark one and lose the Mark on another.
Since Mark only generates a bit of threat and it's your damage dealt while Mark is on the target that generates threat any time not having Mark and not dealing damage basically is lost threat potential.
That's why a better system would be a short, flat duration rather than it disappearing after you get hit.
Threat should be built off our main attacks, not a mark that has a casting time and is annoying to put up continually. The mechanic is not friendly, and is NOT FUN.
This is NOT a Guardian Fighter issue. If it were a GF issue, then every class would be having difficulty with getting trained by adds. Only the cleric is having this difficulty. It's quite clear that heal aggro is the issue. No matter what you do to GFs, clerics will still be taking vastly more aggro than every other class, which is a big problem - period.
Hero of the North & Guardian of Neverwinter Founder.
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rufusscipio23Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Sounds like you need a good GF and a good GWF working together. GF pulls some mobs and boss while GWF gets everything in a group (using his CC powers like roar, and cooperating with the CW) and beats them down together. All the while TR stays on boss DPSing it down.
After reading all the posts, it seems more are having issues with aggro, and everyone else thinks clerics are only dps or are supposed to be tanking.
I think what everyone is missing that I've noticed, is that people say that CW's should CC everything and you'll be fine, but some boss fights spawn literally 10+ ads at a time, like the Chartilifax dragon boss, about 10 imps and 5 elites spawn every few minutes or so. Aoe's can only hit 5 targets maximum, except a very few that don't follow this rule, and even still, CW's only have 1 or 2 aoe CC skills, one being a daily power. They can't control and CC more than a few mobs at a time.
On top of that, what I think really is the problem, is the scaling of threat generation between healing/damaging/threatening skills.
If the cleric heals someone for 100hp, and there is a rogue attacking the ads doing anywhere from 1k-5k damage a hit, the ads still attack the cleric and won't switch off to the rogue at all. So 100 healing is stronger than 5,000 damage from a DPS class? That's what I've been noticing is the values and scaling of damage/healing is too indifferent making it nigh impossible to pull aggro from the cleric.
Or another example, control wizard using their CC powers, like their daily ice aoe that knocks back 5 targets and does massive damage. They never pull aggro on the mobs that were damaged, they just run right back to the cleric who might have used a sun burst aoe heal for like 500hp on 2 people.
It all just seems off. I understand the game has a different system, it isn't like other MMO's and I like that. However, there needs to be some balancing because I don't think it was intentional to spawn 20 ads during boss fights, and force the cleric to be the designated driver to try to survive it.
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projxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
I can feel for you but in my experience as an all out dmg / crit / aoe spec'd control wiz I pretty much maintain full threat on all adds. Now if bosses keep getting pulled to you that's a serious issue.
I am a cleric and I've run a lot of instances predominantly with PUG groups. You get the good and you get the bad.
I specifically have talked about add agro and how not to tunnel the boss with the groups I have been in.
I tell them to come to protect me and help peel the adds. Unfortunately you will always get those who tunnel.
So I tend to die a lot. I have a lot of res scrolls to help bring me back when my elite kiting skills fail me.
My theory is its the mechanic of how the heal adds to the threat table.
One heal may generate X % of threat, however 4 or 5 others hitting the boss add their Y % of threat to my line in
the healer table and not the tanks (or their own). So my heal is responsible for me generating all my own threat.
I tested this on the last boss in wolf den last nite. I threw down one thing, an astral seal.
Everyone else dps'ed the boss. I just stood well back and did nothing.
As soon as the wolves spawned, they ran immediately for me.
I had done no other dps, just one astral seal. I have spec'ed into 30% threat mitigation, apparently that is still not enough
and I'll need to use more points in the feats section as well. I need to be exploring the defensive build, because my power, crit, recovery build just doesn't seem suitable anymore. Which is a great pity as its a great build for cleric solo play.
I haven't played yet, but I think this healing agro "problem" is a good thing. I'd support what others have said about controlling the chaos instead of a traditional easy-mode tank n' spank. I mean aren't we all bored of the trinity yet? I'd like to see this game evolve into more of an action game like it's advertised instead of an agro management game like your traditional MMORPG.
For those saying the Cleric isn't supposed to play as a healer and the Guardian isn't supposed to play as a tank, then what was the point of designating the Cleric as a healer and Guardian as a tank if that wasn't the function they were supposed to serve? So every class is supposed to play as damage dealers and off-heal/off-tank?
I haven't played yet, but I think this healing agro "problem" is a good thing. I'd support what others have said about controlling the chaos instead of a traditional easy-mode tank n' spank. I mean aren't we all bored of the trinity yet? I'd like to see this game evolve into more of an action game like it's advertised instead of an agro management game like your traditional MMORPG.
You've got it all wrong mate. Play a cleric, I dare you, then come back in a week and let us know how you did in the group content, assuming it doesn't get changed before you get the chance.
Nobody is wanting the game to be super easy tank and spank. All we are trying to get at is this, The guardian fighter having all skills/passives towards gaining THREAT and having aggro from said threat, is not working as it probably should be. If you want things to be hectic like you say, then why would they even throw in tanking skills and threat generating abilities for the tanks to at least be able to tank things. It doesn't have to come easy, but the tanks should still be able to get threat in the first place, which they can't because 1 heal of just 2hp will pull full aggro from the tank and the mob will stick the cleric until it dies. Even the dps classes who are doing over 10,000+ damage to the mobs can't take the aggro from the cleric who healed for 100hp.
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hoopderMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You've got it all wrong mate. Play a cleric, I dare you, then come back in a week and let us know how you did in the group content, assuming it doesn't get changed before you get the chance.
Nobody is wanting the game to be super easy tank and spank. All we are trying to get at is this, The guardian fighter having all skills/passives towards gaining THREAT and having aggro from said threat, is not working as it probably should be.
I agree completely. Groups of imps in a dungeon/skirmish eat me alive unless I happen to have a wizard who keeps a careful eye on me. It seems like either the 40% reduced healing for self-heals needs to go so I can keep myself alive instead of running like a mad man when I get swarmed from throwing one heal or the tank needs some better multi-target threat gen. So far on bosses that don't summon a ton of adds the GF keeps threat fine (like on the Blackdagger skirmish) so it seems like the single target threat gen is ok. It's all the little baddies that need to be controlled better.
I for one don't mind sticking with 'the trinity' set up since it works and it works well. I think it can easily be done in this game without sacrificing the action content that makes Neverwinter stand out.
Maybe types of mobs dump aggro or are immune to threat gen so that they are more unpredictable and have to be singled out and burned down. If one or two of those are added into pulls throughout the dungeons it would keep things interesting while avoiding the current problems. I don't mind having to fend for myself periodically as the healer since I love the balance between dealing damage and healing but it's getting to the point mid-30s where the balance is between doing nothing unless absolutely necessary or casting a heal knowing that you're going to have to start spamming pots while running around casting sunburst whenever you can in a vain attempt to just do something.
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dixa1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited April 2013
the real issue comes down to how boss encounters are designed and how guardian fighters ar designed
guardian fighters have no spammable aoe taunt, and boss fights - all of them - constantly spawn adds. these adds spawn with threat towards whatever hits them first be it damage or healing. the nature of healing in this game means that clerics always have initial aggro of these first spawned mobs, and guardians can do nothing about it.
so yes, until something is changed with the core mechanics of this game clerics are immobile tanks who can't leave their astral shield bubble and will require a good amount of recovery to make it permanent.
however one can't look at this issue without also remembering sto - where the game used to have a holy trinity at launch but now has a holy...well everyone just played tac captains and blows stuff up faster. the best mitigation in that game is dps.
*sighs* I'm giving this game the benfit of a doubt (till I play it) but so far from everything I've been reading including this lil thread its like all the failures of Champions made it into this game including bad healer aggro -_-
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hattarasMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited April 2013
Are there any Clerics out there that are NOT having a problem with too much threat? I was planning on rolling a Cleric as my first character, but now I'm worried about doing that...
Your main threat comes from marking targets which increases the threat done to the target and reduces damage/increases damage taken on the marked targets. Marked targets have a big red "X" over their head. Sounds good right?
You can increase Mark by passively generating threat on Marked targets as well as generating an additional 100% threat to the target while it's marked as well. Sounds better right?
Well here's the infuriating part. Mark goes away the minute the target hits you on a non shielded attack. This means soon as your Guard breaks you lose your Mark and like 80% of your threat generating capability. You do have an AOE taunt that's on a fairly low cool down of around 15 seconds and it lasts around 3-5 seconds (Taunted targets have a big red "!" over their head). In later dungeons as bosses and piles of mobs build up (such as in basic Cragmire) that all hit pretty hard taunting the mobs basically instantly breaks your Guard. You can choose to take the hits (since they are forced to attack you) but then they are no longer marked and you won't generate any additional threat. You can Guard yourself but then your Guard meter will instantly break and you will lose mark and Guard is pretty difficult to generate (you only generate around 10% back with your basic Shield At-Will attack meaning you'd need 10 attacks to get back up). There are almost no abilities to generate Guard back reliably or in large amounts.
Tanking becomes a huge game of micro managing when to take hits, when to push offense, when to taunt and when to ignore and not try to tank things that would waste your Guard meter. While personally I find it interesting and challenging, the system is pretty crappy over all and it means that you are going to run into a lot of REALLY bad tanks who can't hold threat at all. It's pretty sad because even the NPCs (Rock Golem and the Tanker Companion) have much easier threat systems and can pull threat off me super easy while I have to be on the top of my game just to keep a boss on me. If a Cleric or some other class goes all out crazy healing and crazy DPS it's pretty much impossible to hold threat outside of the taunt periods.
It seems to make sense to me too. If it were like we wanted, more aggro moves for tank and less aggro moves for healer, it would be like any other mmorpg without any newness. The game may need some improvements cause after all its a beta, but i suppose we should try to blend in this way of playstyle and see if it is fun. I am sure it will be more challenging and different.
Well here's the infuriating part. Mark goes away the minute the target hits you on a non shielded attack. This means soon as your Guard breaks you lose your Mark and like 80% of your threat generating capability.
What about Threatening Rush's mark?
Does it help at all if Great Weapon Fighters are Marking targets? Or does that just cause the GWF to get more threat?
the real issue comes down to how boss encounters are designed and how guardian fighters ar designed
guardian fighters have no spammable aoe taunt, and boss fights - all of them - constantly spawn adds. these adds spawn with threat towards whatever hits them first be it damage or healing. the nature of healing in this game means that clerics always have initial aggro of these first spawned mobs, and guardians can do nothing about it.
Yes, we know this. I already went over in previous replies that this makes up for about 1% of the issue. In any game, if there is no damage being done while healing is being dished out, of course the healer will have aggro.
What I also spoke about beforehand is the fact that what you said happens then the Guardian tries to help out or when the DPS helps out to start killing them, that the ads will not get off the cleric, even if you stop healing or haven't healed since they spawned. The tank cannot take the aggro off the cleric except for a few seconds with the aoe taunt, then they just go right back to the cleric again when that forced taunt wears off.
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dixa1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
Yes, we know this. I already went over in previous replies that this makes up for about 1% of the issue. In any game, if there is no damage being done while healing is being dished out, of course the healer will have aggro.
What I also spoke about beforehand is the fact that what you said happens then the Guardian tries to help out or when the DPS helps out to start killing them, that the ads will not get off the cleric, even if you stop healing or haven't healed since they spawned. The tank cannot take the aggro off the cleric except for a few seconds with the aoe taunt, then they just go right back to the cleric again when that forced taunt wears off.
guardian fighters dont have enough abilities or mobility to keep them off you 100% of the time. you would ahve to be sitting right next to the tank always and hope they are hit by the rather tiny radius cleave they get as an at-will, and hope you can survive whatever aoe that guardian fighter just decided to block instead of move out from.
i havent looked at their at-wills, but this could be a good reason to give them a large radius but low damage aoe at-will with a high threat component.
I've leveled a guardian fighter to 54 and a control wizard to 60 since open beta. The wizard was leveled solo, but the guardian was with a group 100% of the time. Overall, we've done all of the leveling dungeons and group content.
On the guardian fighter I've tried everything to maximize my threat generation. Increased mark threat, mark AoE spreading, damage increases, AoE taunting talents, using offensive skills...etc and I can hold my own against the DPS. However, when it comes to clerics I've just accepted that the majority of the time they will just be running for their lives on most fights.
Additionally, what really gets me is that most of my AoE support abilities seem to get eaten up by pets rather than players. Into the Fray is lucky to hit 2 players, same goes for Knights Valor.
So, I'm not the best at keeping monster attention, nor am I a great source of group buffs; I also can't do much in the way of damage. In the end, it's kind of like I tag along watching everyone do my job better than me. I'd really like to enjoy playing a guardian fighter, but it seems like another dps/cc wizard would bring a lot more group synergy.
If I'm wrong, then show me the way. But right now there is a really "awkward" feeling to being a guardian in a group.
Well, I have a 60 Cleric and have done epic dungeons. No aggro issues with a good tank *one that waits with his snap taunt and uses it when adds come* Also alot of bosses have an hp/adds summon mechanic eg once every 25%, so over DPS on boss could be your issues there too.
I've leveled a guardian fighter to 54 and a control wizard to 60 since open beta. The wizard was leveled solo, but the guardian was with a group 100% of the time. Overall, we've done all of the leveling dungeons and group content.
On the guardian fighter I've tried everything to maximize my threat generation. Increased mark threat, mark AoE spreading, damage increases, AoE taunting talents, using offensive skills...etc and I can hold my own against the DPS. However, when it comes to clerics I've just accepted that the majority of the time they will just be running for their lives on most fights.
Additionally, what really gets me is that most of my AoE support abilities seem to get eaten up by pets rather than players. Into the Fray is lucky to hit 2 players, same goes for Knights Valor.
So, I'm not the best at keeping monster attention, nor am I a great source of group buffs; I also can't do much in the way of damage. In the end, it's kind of like I tag along watching everyone do my job better than me. I'd really like to enjoy playing a guardian fighter, but it seems like another dps/cc wizard would bring a lot more group synergy.
If I'm wrong, then show me the way. But right now there is a really "awkward" feeling to being a guardian in a group.
sadly this is what they did to engineers in sto who used to be that games tank in space. nerfed them into near uselessness. they have a place on the ground due to their bunker kit, but most of teh game is space combat. it went from a pseudo holy trinity to tac captains online, with tac captains able to tank as well as an engineer. hell some of the newer escorts have hull and shields close to that of the supposed tank cruisers designed for engineers.
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dixa1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
Well, I have a 60 Cleric and have done epic dungeons. No aggro issues with a good tank *one that waits with his snap taunt and uses it when adds come* Also alot of bosses have an hp/adds summon mechanic eg once every 25%, so over DPS on boss could be your issues there too.
pug dps ignoring adds is another.
hopefully the game will allow combat logging soon. then it becomes a good idea for a cleric to parse and run act and report after every boss fight - enticing dps classes to aoe the little HAMSTER things more to pad their numbers!!
hopefully the game will allow combat logging soon. then it becomes a good idea for a cleric to parse and run act and report after every boss fight - enticing dps classes to aoe the little HAMSTER things more to pad their numbers!!
It does, maybe you should check your combatlog.log files. You can use ACT with a plugin, and no you don't get mine.
Comments
Yes but it doesn't change my thoughts on the issue, im sure some people will enjoy this change and find it interesting, its just not for me, so I will go the DPS/CC route instead.
There's a huge difference between new good mechanics and new bad mechanics. You seem to be attracted to the "new" element of it to the point you're overlooking the "bad" element of it. They could achieve roughly the same new and interesting system by making Marked a flat duration buff that is refreshed when you attack the target while Guarded. This would give you a chance to rebuild back up Guard in between refreshing your Aggro mechanic and still keep the needing to Guard.
If they don't, Clerics better get ready to nut up because they're going to basically be tanking everything but the main boss.
The CC is pretty epic. With CW's around I don't even bother trying to tank trash because the mobs are CC'd permanently to the point they can't even hit anyone if they tried.
Also, have you given the tanks sufficient time to build up aggro before you started spamming heals all over? The seals heal everyone who is hitting the mobs, so throwing down an astral shield or some other big heal will build up a lot of aggro fast.
I think for these situations in other games you have a 'passivity' skill which instantly lowers threat that is on a timer. Perhaps we need that?
What Class Are You?
That is astral seal and is the default right-click at will skill, you can sling those things all day.
edit: oops, I guess you are talking about the tank marks..
What Class Are You?
The mark can be placed using the single target version (Tab) instantly and repeatedly or with AOE taunt which will place it automatically on all targets that get hit with Taunt.
The issue here can be that there's an animation for Mark that takes up time. So you go to put it on the target and it swings it immediately comes right back off. Depending on the boss/creature and their attack rate it can be impossible to put back on cause you can't get back into Guard mode before the animation is done and you get hit before the animation stops. In cases of super slow attacks it's extremely easy while you might have to spam it a bit before it sticks and you can get into guard mode on regular attack speed mobs. Mobs with rapid attacks and otherwise you basically gotta back out to reapply it then re-approach with Guard up. All of that wastes time building threat while your allies just keep going full tilt and it's pretty easy to lose aggro at that stage forcing you to Taunt. When trying to tank multiple targets, that animation time makes it impossible to keep on multiples without Taunt up because you'll go to Mark one and lose the Mark on another.
Since Mark only generates a bit of threat and it's your damage dealt while Mark is on the target that generates threat any time not having Mark and not dealing damage basically is lost threat potential.
That's why a better system would be a short, flat duration rather than it disappearing after you get hit.
Threat should be built off our main attacks, not a mark that has a casting time and is annoying to put up continually. The mechanic is not friendly, and is NOT FUN.
60 Drow Trickster Rogue
11 Elf Control Wizard
Server: Beholder
Guild: Praetor Lupus
Guild Website: http://www.PraetorLupus.com
Hero of the North & Guardian of Neverwinter Founder.
I think what everyone is missing that I've noticed, is that people say that CW's should CC everything and you'll be fine, but some boss fights spawn literally 10+ ads at a time, like the Chartilifax dragon boss, about 10 imps and 5 elites spawn every few minutes or so. Aoe's can only hit 5 targets maximum, except a very few that don't follow this rule, and even still, CW's only have 1 or 2 aoe CC skills, one being a daily power. They can't control and CC more than a few mobs at a time.
On top of that, what I think really is the problem, is the scaling of threat generation between healing/damaging/threatening skills.
If the cleric heals someone for 100hp, and there is a rogue attacking the ads doing anywhere from 1k-5k damage a hit, the ads still attack the cleric and won't switch off to the rogue at all. So 100 healing is stronger than 5,000 damage from a DPS class? That's what I've been noticing is the values and scaling of damage/healing is too indifferent making it nigh impossible to pull aggro from the cleric.
Or another example, control wizard using their CC powers, like their daily ice aoe that knocks back 5 targets and does massive damage. They never pull aggro on the mobs that were damaged, they just run right back to the cleric who might have used a sun burst aoe heal for like 500hp on 2 people.
It all just seems off. I understand the game has a different system, it isn't like other MMO's and I like that. However, there needs to be some balancing because I don't think it was intentional to spawn 20 ads during boss fights, and force the cleric to be the designated driver to try to survive it.
I specifically have talked about add agro and how not to tunnel the boss with the groups I have been in.
I tell them to come to protect me and help peel the adds. Unfortunately you will always get those who tunnel.
So I tend to die a lot. I have a lot of res scrolls to help bring me back when my elite kiting skills fail me.
My theory is its the mechanic of how the heal adds to the threat table.
One heal may generate X % of threat, however 4 or 5 others hitting the boss add their Y % of threat to my line in
the healer table and not the tanks (or their own). So my heal is responsible for me generating all my own threat.
I tested this on the last boss in wolf den last nite. I threw down one thing, an astral seal.
Everyone else dps'ed the boss. I just stood well back and did nothing.
As soon as the wolves spawned, they ran immediately for me.
I had done no other dps, just one astral seal. I have spec'ed into 30% threat mitigation, apparently that is still not enough
and I'll need to use more points in the feats section as well. I need to be exploring the defensive build, because my power, crit, recovery build just doesn't seem suitable anymore. Which is a great pity as its a great build for cleric solo play.
You've got it all wrong mate. Play a cleric, I dare you, then come back in a week and let us know how you did in the group content, assuming it doesn't get changed before you get the chance.
Nobody is wanting the game to be super easy tank and spank. All we are trying to get at is this, The guardian fighter having all skills/passives towards gaining THREAT and having aggro from said threat, is not working as it probably should be. If you want things to be hectic like you say, then why would they even throw in tanking skills and threat generating abilities for the tanks to at least be able to tank things. It doesn't have to come easy, but the tanks should still be able to get threat in the first place, which they can't because 1 heal of just 2hp will pull full aggro from the tank and the mob will stick the cleric until it dies. Even the dps classes who are doing over 10,000+ damage to the mobs can't take the aggro from the cleric who healed for 100hp.
I agree completely. Groups of imps in a dungeon/skirmish eat me alive unless I happen to have a wizard who keeps a careful eye on me. It seems like either the 40% reduced healing for self-heals needs to go so I can keep myself alive instead of running like a mad man when I get swarmed from throwing one heal or the tank needs some better multi-target threat gen. So far on bosses that don't summon a ton of adds the GF keeps threat fine (like on the Blackdagger skirmish) so it seems like the single target threat gen is ok. It's all the little baddies that need to be controlled better.
I for one don't mind sticking with 'the trinity' set up since it works and it works well. I think it can easily be done in this game without sacrificing the action content that makes Neverwinter stand out.
Maybe types of mobs dump aggro or are immune to threat gen so that they are more unpredictable and have to be singled out and burned down. If one or two of those are added into pulls throughout the dungeons it would keep things interesting while avoiding the current problems. I don't mind having to fend for myself periodically as the healer since I love the balance between dealing damage and healing but it's getting to the point mid-30s where the balance is between doing nothing unless absolutely necessary or casting a heal knowing that you're going to have to start spamming pots while running around casting sunburst whenever you can in a vain attempt to just do something.
guardian fighters have no spammable aoe taunt, and boss fights - all of them - constantly spawn adds. these adds spawn with threat towards whatever hits them first be it damage or healing. the nature of healing in this game means that clerics always have initial aggro of these first spawned mobs, and guardians can do nothing about it.
so yes, until something is changed with the core mechanics of this game clerics are immobile tanks who can't leave their astral shield bubble and will require a good amount of recovery to make it permanent.
however one can't look at this issue without also remembering sto - where the game used to have a holy trinity at launch but now has a holy...well everyone just played tac captains and blows stuff up faster. the best mitigation in that game is dps.
It seems to make sense to me too. If it were like we wanted, more aggro moves for tank and less aggro moves for healer, it would be like any other mmorpg without any newness. The game may need some improvements cause after all its a beta, but i suppose we should try to blend in this way of playstyle and see if it is fun. I am sure it will be more challenging and different.
What about Threatening Rush's mark?
Does it help at all if Great Weapon Fighters are Marking targets? Or does that just cause the GWF to get more threat?
Yes, we know this. I already went over in previous replies that this makes up for about 1% of the issue. In any game, if there is no damage being done while healing is being dished out, of course the healer will have aggro.
What I also spoke about beforehand is the fact that what you said happens then the Guardian tries to help out or when the DPS helps out to start killing them, that the ads will not get off the cleric, even if you stop healing or haven't healed since they spawned. The tank cannot take the aggro off the cleric except for a few seconds with the aoe taunt, then they just go right back to the cleric again when that forced taunt wears off.
guardian fighters dont have enough abilities or mobility to keep them off you 100% of the time. you would ahve to be sitting right next to the tank always and hope they are hit by the rather tiny radius cleave they get as an at-will, and hope you can survive whatever aoe that guardian fighter just decided to block instead of move out from.
i havent looked at their at-wills, but this could be a good reason to give them a large radius but low damage aoe at-will with a high threat component.
On the guardian fighter I've tried everything to maximize my threat generation. Increased mark threat, mark AoE spreading, damage increases, AoE taunting talents, using offensive skills...etc and I can hold my own against the DPS. However, when it comes to clerics I've just accepted that the majority of the time they will just be running for their lives on most fights.
Additionally, what really gets me is that most of my AoE support abilities seem to get eaten up by pets rather than players. Into the Fray is lucky to hit 2 players, same goes for Knights Valor.
So, I'm not the best at keeping monster attention, nor am I a great source of group buffs; I also can't do much in the way of damage. In the end, it's kind of like I tag along watching everyone do my job better than me. I'd really like to enjoy playing a guardian fighter, but it seems like another dps/cc wizard would bring a lot more group synergy.
If I'm wrong, then show me the way. But right now there is a really "awkward" feeling to being a guardian in a group.
sadly this is what they did to engineers in sto who used to be that games tank in space. nerfed them into near uselessness. they have a place on the ground due to their bunker kit, but most of teh game is space combat. it went from a pseudo holy trinity to tac captains online, with tac captains able to tank as well as an engineer. hell some of the newer escorts have hull and shields close to that of the supposed tank cruisers designed for engineers.
pug dps ignoring adds is another.
hopefully the game will allow combat logging soon. then it becomes a good idea for a cleric to parse and run act and report after every boss fight - enticing dps classes to aoe the little HAMSTER things more to pad their numbers!!
It does, maybe you should check your combatlog.log files. You can use ACT with a plugin, and no you don't get mine.
Part 1: NW-DMFKR9RPL http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?427711-Brunnen-des-Lichts-Teil-1
Part 2: NW-DLBTN8W28 http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?444281-Brunnen-des-Lichts-Teil-2
Icewind Dale campaign Osthafen sehen & sterben (German)
NW-DMC3IOWAE http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?477201-Osthafen-sehen-amp-sterben