Is it better to go balanced Cha/Int for dps like a 16/16 (pre racial), or Cha>Int at character selection (for a crit arcane dps build that is)?
At the moment, the highest you can roll on CHA is 16. That roll also gives you 16 on INT, so unfortunately there's no way to roll CHA higher than INT before racials.
Wow, 1-50 in a weekend... sounds like another baby game. I was really hoping this game was real. I hate games you can beat in a week.
When will MMOs learn... if players hit max level in a week. They stop playing in a month... there is already 1 WoW We do not need another.
I actually believe the opposite is true. The reason people quit is not that they reach maximum level too quickly, it's because developers invest too much money and time into the leveling experience that is by nature relatively short-lived. Look at SWTOR as an example. EA had a 200 million budget and invested almost all of it into voiceovers, zone, and quest design for the leveling experience. As a result the end game was mediocre at best and people decided to leave. The issue is not that leveling is too short, its that not enough emphasis is on the end game. You can create a leveling experience that takes a very very long time and is grindy, or you can create a solid end game and take the emphasis off of leveling. Grindy games don't succeed, the only realistic solution is to put more emphasis on end game.
I like the leveling speed a lot in this game and I hope it means that Cryptic has spent more time on the end game than most companies do. I don't know if that is true but I definitely don't think its true that a shorter leveling experience means people will quit the game.
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cihuacoatlMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited April 2013
I played GW2 and it suffered the same issue.. to easy to level 5 days from 1-80 3 sets of gear by week4. With ony WvWvW left. This was fun for about 1 more month but got old. Mainly because there wasn't any purpose to do it. You always faught the same 3 servers and unless you had a balanced asian/na player base you couldn't compete.
PvP is fun and I still play that game for that... but I cannot see NWN competing with GW2 on a PvP level.
Having played MMOs for over 15 years I must say I disagree. EQ was very slow and held a great player base. The casual players moved to new waters when WoW came out. Game play didn't keep player going. It was raiding that keeps people going and casuals want to be like the hardcore. The dog chaising the bone he can never get is key. Running the same boring dungeon 100x gets old but trying to kill a boss for 1-2 months is epic when you win and get that unique loot that less than 2% of the game have obtained.
I am an old D&D player and it took me 10 years to get to level 36 and start the immortal series. It was more about the road than getting their. This also gives devs time to develop for endgame while players enjoy progression. SWToR railed because leveling was too fast and like many new games... there is nothing to chase at the end.
I played GW2 and it suffered the same issue.. to easy to level 5 days from 1-80 3 sets of gear by week4. With ony WvWvW left. This was fun for about 1 more month but got old. Mainly because there wasn't any purpose to do it. You always faught the same 3 servers and unless you had a balanced asian/na player base you couldn't compete.
PvP is fun and I still play that game for that... but I cannot see NWN competing with GW2 on a PvP level.
Having played MMOs for over 15 years I must say I disagree. EQ was very slow and held a great player base. The casual players moved to new waters when WoW came out. Game play didn't keep player going. It was raiding that keeps people going and casuals want to be like the hardcore. The dog chaising the bone he can never get is key. Running the same boring dungeon 100x gets old but trying to kill a boss for 1-2 months is epic when you win and get that unique loot that less than 2% of the game have obtained.
I am an old D&D player and it took me 10 years to get to level 36 and start the immortal series. It was more about the road than getting their. This also gives devs time to develop for endgame while players enjoy progression. SWToR railed because leveling was too fast and like many new games... there is nothing to chase at the end.
I'm not saying nobody likes grinding, but I don't think the old-school grind can come close to the popularity of less grindy games, and I don't think its necessary. Guild wars 2 didn't suffer from the issue. The reason people quit games after leveling is because the end game is bad. People are occupied and content while they level because they view it as a means to an end and the progression keeps them going. Once that progression is finished, the end game needs to be intrinsically fun enough to keep the player interested or it needs to offer further progression as WoW does. People are going to quit when they get bored of the game, and people get bored of the game when the gameplay itself becomes stale, when they run out of content, or when there is no room for further progression. Extending leveling in theory solves that problem but in reality it's not something that most people enjoy to an extreme extent. Yes, old-school players often like it, but old-school players aren't a large market anymore. A game that takes a year to reach max level isn't accessible, the average player doesn't want to grind. Not only that but typically its expensive as hell to build leveling content relative to the amount of time people actually spend playing it. SWTOR probably spent 150 million dollars building the leveling content in their game which for many people lasted a week or so if not less. What would happen if that 150 million was spent entirely on end game systems and core gameplay? In my opinion its hard to argue that extra leveling content is where companies should be spending their money. Story-driven content is too expensive for the rewards it gives, and grinding is not enjoyable for the majority of the market.
I'm not saying nobody likes grinding, but I don't think the old-school grind can come close to the popularity of less grindy games, and I don't think its necessary. Guild wars 2 didn't suffer from the issue. The reason people quit games after leveling is because the end game is bad. People are occupied and content while they level because they view it as a means to an end and the progression keeps them going. Once that progression is finished, the end game needs to be intrinsically fun enough to keep the player interested or it needs to offer further progression as WoW does. People are going to quit when they get bored of the game, and people get bored of the game when the gameplay itself becomes stale, when they run out of content, or when there is no room for further progression. Extending leveling in theory solves that problem but in reality it's not something that most people enjoy to an extreme extent. Yes, old-school players often like it, but old-school players aren't a large market anymore. A game that takes a year to reach max level isn't accessible, the average player doesn't want to grind. Not only that but typically its expensive as hell to build leveling content relative to the amount of time people actually spend playing it. SWTOR probably spent 150 million dollars building the leveling content in their game which for many people lasted a week or so if not less. What would happen if that 150 million was spent entirely on end game systems and core gameplay? In my opinion its hard to argue that extra leveling content is where companies should be spending their money. Story-driven content is too expensive for the rewards it gives, and grinding is not enjoyable for the majority of the market.
Agreed in every point
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cihuacoatlMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited April 2013
jkaplan92,
You bring some very valid points to the table.
Perhaps I am just use to the glory days in EQ when it took a 40 hours to get a level and a month to clear a dungeon and a year to get through epic quests like Time.
I doubt most gamers these days have not even played that game... most are probably 2 young. I also agree SWToR totally messed up their game... and it was very obvious in Beta that it was fail... though $$$ is more important sometimes and release dates must be met. Though I also think you do not need to spend $150 mil to make a quality game.
I have been playing Tsunami.thebigwave.net for nearly 20 years. The replay value is huge and yes it is an old school LPMud. Why do people play a game for 20 years, why do players keep coming back even when they hate it at times. Well there is a lot to do... player housing, player owned shops, no level cap, and over 200 race/class combos. Now I know a MMO cannot realistically afford the feature set of a MUD. Graphics are expensive... but there is still a lot to learn from these old school and a few are extremely successful games.
Level caps are not required... players will grind until they cannot grind anymore. Just because they want to be the biggest/best. Minigames are of high value... EQ2 card game (awesome)... GEMs in Age of Wushu crafting awesome... player hostest evens (foundry) awesome... crafting in general... distractions are good... grinding is ok if done in taste. Hunting that rare drop mobs has value.
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cihuacoatlMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited April 2013
Oh and tsunami cost nearly nothing to develop and nothing to play... it is player created game. by players for players.. so the player designed what is required to entertain for years... and is still being developed... for free.
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derresshMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Hi can someone who played CW and DC compare the aoe capacity of both please? I cant make my mind for my main between the two and it is aoe+CC vs aoe+heal.
I leveled a CW with my girlfriend's DC, and she was able to hit higher damage with one of her AoEs (Daunting Light), but I was able to keep up higher AoE dps over a longer period of time. This could have just been our build choices though, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
Perhaps I am just use to the glory days in EQ when it took a 40 hours to get a level and a month to clear a dungeon and a year to get through epic quests like Time.
I doubt most gamers these days have not even played that game... most are probably 2 young. I also agree SWToR totally messed up their game... and it was very obvious in Beta that it was fail... though $$$ is more important sometimes and release dates must be met. Though I also think you do not need to spend $150 mil to make a quality game.
I have been playing Tsunami.thebigwave.net for nearly 20 years. The replay value is huge and yes it is an old school LPMud. Why do people play a game for 20 years, why do players keep coming back even when they hate it at times. Well there is a lot to do... player housing, player owned shops, no level cap, and over 200 race/class combos. Now I know a MMO cannot realistically afford the feature set of a MUD. Graphics are expensive... but there is still a lot to learn from these old school and a few are extremely successful games.
Level caps are not required... players will grind until they cannot grind anymore. Just because they want to be the biggest/best. Minigames are of high value... EQ2 card game (awesome)... GEMs in Age of Wushu crafting awesome... player hostest evens (foundry) awesome... crafting in general... distractions are good... grinding is ok if done in taste. Hunting that rare drop mobs has value.
I agree with you completely. My first MMO was star wars galaxies and I still view that as the best game I've ever played and wish that modern MMOs would use more of the features that made that game so great (luckily I think they will soon as themepark seams to be dieing off and SOE looks to be returning to its sandbox roots with EQnext) I agree completely with your last paragraph in particular. I really don't think that levels are necessary anymore in this genre I think that if you create a game that is compelling enough, where there is progression but not in the form of levels, and where essentially the second you jump into the game you're at the end game, I think that could be very successful, and I definitely think we're going to see more of that in the near future as sandbox comes back to the forefront. What you said about the LPMud you play sounds a lot like how I felt about SWG. What made that game great was not the content created by the developers. Realistically there was very little content in SWG. What made the game great was the fact that you were basically dropped off in a world and given the tools to really make it amazing. The game was about giving the players the freedom to a lot of really awesome things within a sandbox world, rather than putting them on some linear quest line until they reach level cap where they can then do dungeons and get gear. I think themepark is easier to do, its easy to throw carrot on a stick rewards at players over and over, WoW has proven that if nothing else, but I think sandbox is where the real potential is to make amazing games. It's just really hard to figure out how to give the players what tools, but I definitely think the industry is going in that direction. Even in neverwinter which is undoubtedly a themepark game, we have the foundry so players can build their own content and thats definitely a step in the right direction IMO.
I'm super excited for EQnext though. They're emphasizing both sandbox and player generated content and I think if they do it right it could be an incredible game.
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cihuacoatlMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited April 2013
Yes, I agree EQNext probably will redefine the genre... at least that is my hope.
Cleric vs Wizard is really a debate on what you want your primary role to be. I find there is more variation to the combat per fight with a control wizard, you don't always need to cc mobs but the option is always there. A cleric's aoe damage is also good, but it is lower because a cleric's damage is seldom just damage, there is almost always a secondary effect, heal the party, debuff the mobs and such. Both are highly valued in a group setting, a cleric probably more so because of the healing aspect. I have played both, and both were really fun, I'll take the control wizard only because I like not being expected to play a specific role in group settings.
How much do clothes cost in the Matrix?
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desthatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Thanks a lot for the answer. Do you think that the wizard will have an easy time finding a group (I play a lot solo due to my gaming time being unstable but love to do 1 or 2 dungeon per day) or is it best
to go to the priest for grouping without 30 minutes asking? (This is my fear in every mmo)
Thanks a lot for the answer. Do you think that the wizard will have an easy time finding a group (I play a lot solo due to my gaming time being unstable but love to do 1 or 2 dungeon per day) or is it best
to go to the priest for grouping without 30 minutes asking? (This is my fear in every mmo)
Thats difficult to answer at this point. I think that its safe to say guardian fighters and clerics will have the easiest time getting groups of the 5 classes, but I can't say whether or not it will be difficult for DPS at this point, it really just depends on what the class populations look like at launch and thats hard to predict. I think you should be able to use the queue system with no problems. It doesn't seem like the system forces a certain composition, so I've been in dungeon groups with no guardian fighter or no cleric but i'm not entirely sure how that works. Either way I think Queues should be about the same for every class, but for finding groups in chat it may be a bit harder for DPS.
I've never even tried to get a group by asking in chat so not sure of that. One of the best points of this game is the queue system which really negates the need for asking in chat. Most premade groups i would bet will come from guilds or groups of friends.
I don't know how much the queue system focuses on specific classes per group (or if it does at all) but it will be a safe bet that asking in chat would give the cleric the advantage.
Looking at experiences from other MMOs there is no doubt that tanks (GF) and healers (cleric) will have an easy time getting groups, while a dps will spend more time be it via chat or dungeon finder queue. However also looking at other MMOs you will most likely also see some in chat demanding certain classes, certain specs, as well as a minimum level of gear solely based on popular hype on which classes and specs are the best. Example in Guild Wars 2 I constantly had a hard time finding Arah dungeon groups as an elementalist, because a lot thought the class was crappy dps with low survivability.
Generally my advice is stay clear of such groups, if they demand such things it is not the kind of people you would want to group with anyway.
Comments
Is it better to go balanced Cha/Int for dps like a 16/16 (pre racial), or Cha>Int at character selection (for a crit arcane dps build that is)?
At the moment, the highest you can roll on CHA is 16. That roll also gives you 16 on INT, so unfortunately there's no way to roll CHA higher than INT before racials.
I actually believe the opposite is true. The reason people quit is not that they reach maximum level too quickly, it's because developers invest too much money and time into the leveling experience that is by nature relatively short-lived. Look at SWTOR as an example. EA had a 200 million budget and invested almost all of it into voiceovers, zone, and quest design for the leveling experience. As a result the end game was mediocre at best and people decided to leave. The issue is not that leveling is too short, its that not enough emphasis is on the end game. You can create a leveling experience that takes a very very long time and is grindy, or you can create a solid end game and take the emphasis off of leveling. Grindy games don't succeed, the only realistic solution is to put more emphasis on end game.
I like the leveling speed a lot in this game and I hope it means that Cryptic has spent more time on the end game than most companies do. I don't know if that is true but I definitely don't think its true that a shorter leveling experience means people will quit the game.
PvP is fun and I still play that game for that... but I cannot see NWN competing with GW2 on a PvP level.
Having played MMOs for over 15 years I must say I disagree. EQ was very slow and held a great player base. The casual players moved to new waters when WoW came out. Game play didn't keep player going. It was raiding that keeps people going and casuals want to be like the hardcore. The dog chaising the bone he can never get is key. Running the same boring dungeon 100x gets old but trying to kill a boss for 1-2 months is epic when you win and get that unique loot that less than 2% of the game have obtained.
I am an old D&D player and it took me 10 years to get to level 36 and start the immortal series. It was more about the road than getting their. This also gives devs time to develop for endgame while players enjoy progression. SWToR railed because leveling was too fast and like many new games... there is nothing to chase at the end.
I'm not saying nobody likes grinding, but I don't think the old-school grind can come close to the popularity of less grindy games, and I don't think its necessary. Guild wars 2 didn't suffer from the issue. The reason people quit games after leveling is because the end game is bad. People are occupied and content while they level because they view it as a means to an end and the progression keeps them going. Once that progression is finished, the end game needs to be intrinsically fun enough to keep the player interested or it needs to offer further progression as WoW does. People are going to quit when they get bored of the game, and people get bored of the game when the gameplay itself becomes stale, when they run out of content, or when there is no room for further progression. Extending leveling in theory solves that problem but in reality it's not something that most people enjoy to an extreme extent. Yes, old-school players often like it, but old-school players aren't a large market anymore. A game that takes a year to reach max level isn't accessible, the average player doesn't want to grind. Not only that but typically its expensive as hell to build leveling content relative to the amount of time people actually spend playing it. SWTOR probably spent 150 million dollars building the leveling content in their game which for many people lasted a week or so if not less. What would happen if that 150 million was spent entirely on end game systems and core gameplay? In my opinion its hard to argue that extra leveling content is where companies should be spending their money. Story-driven content is too expensive for the rewards it gives, and grinding is not enjoyable for the majority of the market.
Agreed in every point
You bring some very valid points to the table.
Perhaps I am just use to the glory days in EQ when it took a 40 hours to get a level and a month to clear a dungeon and a year to get through epic quests like Time.
I doubt most gamers these days have not even played that game... most are probably 2 young. I also agree SWToR totally messed up their game... and it was very obvious in Beta that it was fail... though $$$ is more important sometimes and release dates must be met. Though I also think you do not need to spend $150 mil to make a quality game.
I have been playing Tsunami.thebigwave.net for nearly 20 years. The replay value is huge and yes it is an old school LPMud. Why do people play a game for 20 years, why do players keep coming back even when they hate it at times. Well there is a lot to do... player housing, player owned shops, no level cap, and over 200 race/class combos. Now I know a MMO cannot realistically afford the feature set of a MUD. Graphics are expensive... but there is still a lot to learn from these old school and a few are extremely successful games.
Level caps are not required... players will grind until they cannot grind anymore. Just because they want to be the biggest/best. Minigames are of high value... EQ2 card game (awesome)... GEMs in Age of Wushu crafting awesome... player hostest evens (foundry) awesome... crafting in general... distractions are good... grinding is ok if done in taste. Hunting that rare drop mobs has value.
I leveled a CW with my girlfriend's DC, and she was able to hit higher damage with one of her AoEs (Daunting Light), but I was able to keep up higher AoE dps over a longer period of time. This could have just been our build choices though, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
I agree with you completely. My first MMO was star wars galaxies and I still view that as the best game I've ever played and wish that modern MMOs would use more of the features that made that game so great (luckily I think they will soon as themepark seams to be dieing off and SOE looks to be returning to its sandbox roots with EQnext) I agree completely with your last paragraph in particular. I really don't think that levels are necessary anymore in this genre I think that if you create a game that is compelling enough, where there is progression but not in the form of levels, and where essentially the second you jump into the game you're at the end game, I think that could be very successful, and I definitely think we're going to see more of that in the near future as sandbox comes back to the forefront. What you said about the LPMud you play sounds a lot like how I felt about SWG. What made that game great was not the content created by the developers. Realistically there was very little content in SWG. What made the game great was the fact that you were basically dropped off in a world and given the tools to really make it amazing. The game was about giving the players the freedom to a lot of really awesome things within a sandbox world, rather than putting them on some linear quest line until they reach level cap where they can then do dungeons and get gear. I think themepark is easier to do, its easy to throw carrot on a stick rewards at players over and over, WoW has proven that if nothing else, but I think sandbox is where the real potential is to make amazing games. It's just really hard to figure out how to give the players what tools, but I definitely think the industry is going in that direction. Even in neverwinter which is undoubtedly a themepark game, we have the foundry so players can build their own content and thats definitely a step in the right direction IMO.
I'm super excited for EQnext though. They're emphasizing both sandbox and player generated content and I think if they do it right it could be an incredible game.
to go to the priest for grouping without 30 minutes asking? (This is my fear in every mmo)
Thats difficult to answer at this point. I think that its safe to say guardian fighters and clerics will have the easiest time getting groups of the 5 classes, but I can't say whether or not it will be difficult for DPS at this point, it really just depends on what the class populations look like at launch and thats hard to predict. I think you should be able to use the queue system with no problems. It doesn't seem like the system forces a certain composition, so I've been in dungeon groups with no guardian fighter or no cleric but i'm not entirely sure how that works. Either way I think Queues should be about the same for every class, but for finding groups in chat it may be a bit harder for DPS.
I don't know how much the queue system focuses on specific classes per group (or if it does at all) but it will be a safe bet that asking in chat would give the cleric the advantage.
Generally my advice is stay clear of such groups, if they demand such things it is not the kind of people you would want to group with anyway.