I got my Cleric to 41. We went into a few areas where only the tank and I were present to fight a tougher mob. It often (but not always) would target me first. Even if I did nothing, and just let the tank attack the mob, it wouldn't change targets. On many of these fights we found it almost impossible to have the tank get aggro, and the times that he did, a single heal from me would change the aggro back to my face.
I've played a healer in most games, and this amount of aggro is off the scale. I expect a fair amount of aggro with my role - but not ~100%.
This.
Managing aggro is a must, but when one spell seems to be all it takes, something is just not right.
0
mogwaiMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Taunts and, broadly speaking, almost all forms of aggro management in MMOs are stand-ins for the vastly harder to simulate 'get in the enemy's way to keep them from attacking your squishy healer'. Since NW has a threat mechanic and has thus chosen this shortcut, it needs to make it work.
Clearly, the Devotee is supposed to be the tank.. or paladin or something. Can hold aggro like non-other. The fighter is a gimp... out-damaged by everybody, can't hold aggro like a sieve holds water, and can't chase & fight to save anybody's life.
Somehow, fighters became completely useless. Just party with a devotee, one rogue, and everybody else has to play a wizard or they will never find a group.
EDIT: I think I figured out why beta was offered to founders.... They would be less likely to never play again because they've already paid. After seeing these class issues, I don't see the point to play at all. Tactics and strategy has been completely removed and replaced with "stand still and left-click." If you're trying to be a tank, or healer, and you think you're doing it wrong.. You'd be wrong. The game doesn't involve tanking or healing mechanics. Spend all your AD on healing potions! Nobody else is gonna heal you.
0
shphgrMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
i still don't understand why you keep spamming this idea when it is clear that it wont work (you can read why on the answer in the thread you linked). seriously, first play a cleric and then you will see WHY it wont work for yourself.
0
malagarrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
This is a tough one for me. In most MMOs we do have the Holy Trinity, and 4E seems to have been built with the Holy Trinity in mind, but I really, really do not feel like it belongs in D&D. Imagine the scene:
DM: "The orc swings an axe at Fred the Fighter, slicing through his breast plate and cutting into his side. Fred, you take 6 hit points of damage."
Fred the Fighter: "****. I only have 6 hit points left. Heal me Chris!"
Chris the Cleric: "I cast Cure Light Wounds on Fred the Fighter."
DM: "Chris the Cleric steps up behind Fred the Fighter and places his hands on the mid section of his back. Healing energy flows forth and Fred's wounds begin to close. The orcs don't seem to notice anything out of place and the second orc stabs at Fred with his spear, barely missing him."
As you can see...it's just not D&D. Sure, we healed in combat in D&D. When someone got hit so hard they were nearly knocked out. They had to be standing still for the cleric to be able to heal them, and most of the time healing occurred after combat. The pace of battle should be so intense that healing during combat would be very, very risky.
BUT, as I've said before, Neverwinter does not seem to be a D&D MMO. It seems to be a standard, hack and slash, fantasy MMO in the Forgotten Realms setting. So, with that in mind, it seems like these aggro issues do need to be resolved.
Hey everybody, just want to chime in and let you know that both Guardian Fighter and Devoted Cleric aggros are being looked at. Thanks for the feedback!
i still don't understand why you keep spamming this idea when it is clear that it wont work (you can read why on the answer in the thread you linked). seriously, first play a cleric and then you will see WHY it wont work for yourself.
so everyone is saying that a cleric cant handle one mob while the rest of the party does the same?
or that the AI is smarter than the players?
cause i'm not gettin it..every endgame vid i saw the cleric easily solos instances...better than my guardian
edit: actually i do get it..everyone wants something with high HP to stick their pointy things into, so now they are changing the game for you...take note lol
Maybe the ~ in front of new ("~new") went unnoticed, it's inconsequential.
The point is this is not a traditional mmo. Who wants to play clones? & there would be no excitement generated to play at all if that were the case.
To me the message(s) stated here & there by the admin. are clear, we got to get used to the idea that there are different factors involved than most of us are used to. NW began 5 years ago, so it has some of the signs that many of us see as familiar & then we get a sense that it should be played a certain familiar way.
This thread, like several other in current discussion (i hope many who are posting here also see those ones), started off with a "heal-aggro" type of dialogue focus which is not really the case. I did not search around to see if i was 1st to say it but from my own findings, review of many other users statements, & lots of videos, sometime mid Friday during play i surmised the "problem" is in the AI /kill clerics 1st/ unfortunately this carries over to every single mob in proximity lol, but as soon as i realized this i changed a bit to compensate, which helped some just by noting it but not entirely enough.
So far i said no more than in my 1st post in this thread...only stretched it out.
In any case clerics are still being looked at & tweaked as we speak.
P.S. Next chance i get to play i will make a crazy bad *** cleric & name him "LoOt" XD
I'm not going to bad mouth a game I'm starting to actually like, but how is this game, an action RPG with big enemies that telegraph attacks so you can either dodge or block at appropriate times all while integrating the holy trinity, any different from Monster Hunter, Tera, C9, or Raider Z? Because it takes place in a DnD setting? That's like saying any number of crappy korean MMOs with the same gameplay mechanics and feel of WoW are different because they take place in the other mystical medieval setting with fantastical creatures at war with one another.
As a tank, I value the cleric above everyone else. Tanking and healing are both difficult jobs to do. One has you manage enemies to ensure no one else is hit or dies, the other makes sure to use what heals at a certain times on which allies when and why to keep from pulling too much aggro away from the tank. Having the heal:aggro ratio this messed up means two pieces of the trinity are broken- a tank that can't hold aggro, and a healer that gets themself killed. Almost as bad as a DPS that can't dish out damage.
That said, this is easily fixable. I feel enemy AI has tiers in how smart it can be, with the lowest tier going after whoever had the highest threat on them. When you get to end game bosses, then it'll make sense they go straight for the healer, but a low level orc grunt? Or a kobold? Since when do wererats know the difference between the guy healing and the guy hurting? I'm surprised they figured out the pointy end of their sword goes in the other guy.
I'm thankful they're addressing it, however. I'm only concerned hoping they make the correct adjustments instead of removing all aggro created from healing. It should exist, but it should be outclassed by a tank that knows how to taunt and hold aggro.
so everyone is saying that a cleric cant handle one mob while the rest of the party does the same?
or that the AI is smarter than the players?
cause i'm not gettin it..every endgame vid i saw the cleric easily solos instances...better than my guardian
edit: actually i do get it..everyone wants something with high HP to stick their pointy things into, so now they are changing the game for you...take note lol
No one is saying the cleric can't handle one mob, they are saying the cleric can't handle 10 mobs, all of whom have the sole intent to kill said cleric. The problem isn't that the cleric can gain aggro, or even that it is easier than games past to gain the aggro. The problem is that the cleric gains the aggro of nearly everything and then there is no way to remove it.
You have mentioned that it is improved AI and that the mobs are now focused on healers the same way players do in an encounter. So let me set a scenario for you... A player group, consisting of a devout cleric (DC), guardian fighter (Tank), and three trickster rogues (DPS), is in a dungeon. They come to the boss fight which has the big bad boss (BBB), cannon fodder minions (CFMs), and healing minions (HMs). The tank engages the BBB, the DPS heads to kill the CFMs, and the cleric waits. On the other end, the BBB doesn't like the tank hitting him and calling him bad names so he attacks. The HMs see their boss taking damage so they start to heal him. As for the CFMs, a couple go to help the BBB, a couple try to defend the HMs, and one or two head over to the cleric, as they don't really like to fight and the guy just standing around looks like easy prey.
Pretty typical stuff so far. Now, at this point the tank is starting to take damage, so the cleric decides to heal him. He tosses a heal that restores less than 1% of the the tanks total HP. WHAT!?!?!?! At this point ALL the CFMs turn their attention to the healer and head straight for him. The tank sees this and gives them the middle finger, usually enough to draw some of them away, but nope, not this time. As the cleric starts to cast whatever minimal heals they have on themselves in between chugging heal pots, the DPS group comes over and starts hacking on the CFMs. The CFMs don't care that they are dying quickly, they just keep hacking and slashing at the cleric. As the cleric nears death the DPS is able to kill off most of the CFMs, only to find out that BBB just called in another group, which apparently heard that the cleric had the ability to do some minor cures, so they immediately head to destroy the cleric. And then the next spawn does the same, etc, etc.
Is this really the way that a player group functions? NO! We attack the healers because they can actually heal the boss for close to the same amount of damage we can do. If they only healed for 1 or 2% of the BBB's total health, we would ignore them and kill the boss anyway. The awesome AI you mention takes any heal cast by the cleric as priority #1, #2, #3, and #4.
If a DPSer is attacking the boss and a group of CFMs come over and start hacking on him, does the DPSer just keep attacking the boss? NO! They turn to kill the CFM and then go back to the boss. The awesome AI here just completely ignores said DPS and continues to target the cleric. If the AI was really the issue here, the CFM would attack anyone who has a belt full of heal pots, as they are way more effective at keeping players alive than anything the cleric can send their way.
The part of this game that is DIFFERENT is that the cleric is not just a healbot. The cleric alone cannnot keep the tank alive. They are able to supplement everyone's self healing, and for a short burst gain back a good chunk of someone's health. They also help to mitigate the overall damage being done to the party, and even throw in some dps of their own in the meantime.
In regular instances ALL the current classes are able to solo effectively. Some easier than others, but reports from the players say that all can do it. The problem everyone is addressing here except you is that the aggro system is currently not working correctly. Why do we all think that? Because the dev posts all say that it isn't. Not sure why that is so hard to understand.
I don't post a lot however, I played only to level 25 so I have no idea how much harder it becomes. However I did see a pattern forming in the lower levels. The tank grabs the "boss" and the cleric heals the tank, the tank normally holds the boss but ever now and then he breaks. Then the tank works to regain agro, the mobs summoned then go for the healer. Now me as a a control wizard or as my trickster did the same thing in both cases. I peeled agro off of the cleric so he could go back to his job. With the trickster I simply killed them, the control wizard I would save my daily for this time of the fight then use my encounters to kill as many as possible. That being said, I think the issue the cleric is having has more to do with the in ability of the group then the in ability of the tank. Now the ability to target heal, with the way this game plays "very Tera esque" in that concept I got a giggle out of the "you need calm sniper like skills to heal on the run". That sounds very true. Then again, lets wait till the final build and release before we go hanging anyone.
I blame your Tank . He is trying to dps . All agro attacks do very little damage , I don't use them when I solo play . The first good one replaces the shield slam , which cuts down on your blocking refill but it hold agro pretty well . You also get a daily 'slam ' that does a little damage and is an area taunt . One of your left mouse attacks taunts and it also does a little damage . I also would put an attack on the ' E " button whatever those are called that has a taunt effect . At level 34 I had 4 taunts I would use in a group . Both mouse buttons , E and 1 . But like I said you will do very little damage with these attacks .
0
shphgrMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
so everyone is saying that a cleric cant handle one mob while the rest of the party does the same?
or that the AI is smarter than the players?
cause i'm not gettin it..every endgame vid i saw the cleric easily solos instances...better than my guardian
edit: actually i do get it..everyone wants something with high HP to stick their pointy things into, so now they are changing the game for you...take note lol
no, everyone is saying that a class without ANY form of mitigration (50% reduced selfhealing and etc) can't handle ~5-10mobs that charge+stun as they spawn.
your idea that "other" party members protect the cleric would be valid if somehow those "other" classes could get aggro OFF the cleric. when not even the tank with it's taunts and etc can take aggro then it is impossible for a dps class to do so.
your other idea that party members surround the cleric only adds to the difficulty of targetting the tank with a heal since the cleric's view is not hindered by it's own party members (that with companions can reach 8 people around you). Also, it doesn't change anything. the mobs aren't "smarter" as you claim them to be. they just tunnel vision the cleric which casted a single heal. for the remainder of the encounter, even if the cleric did nothing and the dps were flanking and hitting the mobs as the cleric is running around they still wouldn't turn and start hitting the dps.
You clearly main a dps class, so i ask you: would you find it "fun" if every single damage ability you had also had "this attack builds additional aggro" and only your CC didn't had that?
Would you find it fun if every time the adds spawned every mob would get a buff that said "mobs are immune to damage till the tank kills them" ?
because, as it was in the last beta, the moment adds were spawning the cleric couldn't heal.
"solo" instances is relevant. a trickster with a healing companion does so better when you are above 20-25lvl, the killing speed for the cleric drops down significantly and his self-reduced healing means that he cannot tank the mobs. from my experience the tanking companion worked pretty well to hold aggro from ONE mob, and this was the most efficient way for me as a cleric to solo, which would also cut down my dps even more.
once again, you speak for a class without having playing it. Your ideas wont work any more that say this idea would:
cleric gets an ability that tranfers 100% damage and CC received to nearest trickster. also takes his share of the gold just because gold if fun:P.
i haven't played a rogue, and i cannot advocate changes about him, he seemed pretty **** OP to me, BUT you wont see me anywhere saying nerf rogue OR rogue is fine, reason: i haven't played one so i wouldn't know. Your experience from a cleric is "the guy in the back that makes me drink fewer pots and probably doing some damage" yet somehow you even figured out that the gameplay atm is the way cryptic wants clerics to be. This is AFTER crytic said: sorry clerics it was obviously not intended for you to draw so much aggro.
0
mogwaiMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
I dont have to, i been playin games so long it's all quite clear, & no my main isin't DPS you didn't read.
The whole point is that if somethings not working we got to look for a solution, mine was the ONLY viable one without actually being a dev employed by PWE.
The tank role (which is not even needed), would be targetable because everyone would still be moving around. The cleric would build action points because inbetween heals they are attacking the adds & since the DD's are so OP as nearly everyone agrees on, then there should be enough time for everyone to DD on the boss/heal for a moment before the next wave.
As for having all the aggro as a cleric, i would love it...anywhere i go the loot would be all mine XD
but there's no point in going on about it since they are reworking it, we will have to see what they came up with later. In fact i was already unsub'ed from this thread.
The part of this game that is DIFFERENT is that the cleric is not just a healbot. The cleric alone cannnot keep the tank alive. They are able to supplement everyone's self healing, and for a short burst gain back a good chunk of someone's health. They also help to mitigate the overall damage being done to the party, and even throw in some dps of their own in the meantime.
I don't remember any D&D video game, or pencil & paper, where we are forced to chug a dozen healing potions every major fight, and only several for every other fight. The cleric is supposed to do minimal DPS (and general support) while he's not focused on healing and removing poisons, curses, disease, etc. The holy trinity used in all those other crappy MMO games are a direct result of D&D! So why should other games ruin it and prevent our game from following that? Otherwise, just as it states about Background and Religion having no real impact on gameplay... such applies to Class choice, too. I guess it doesn't matter if I'm a tiefling cleric or a dwarf wizard, or a halfling fighter... I guess it doesn't matter if I have a full party of just rogues. I guess it doesn't matter if I actually have some playing skill because the game is clearly defined to have "common-denominator" gameplay. Perhaps that's the Korean flavor to a traditionally North American game.
I agree that if the cleric was capable of actually keeping somebody alive during a fight, he should get aggro. But he can't... not even close. For awhile I thought the aggro was just because of his race.. until I figured out he needs to stay out of combat completely. And then he doesn't get any drops or XP; he only gets the end chest, and quest XP.
And you know, I like being the support healer when I get bored with DPS or tanking. I can stay out of combat, feel no pressure about drawing aggro. My job is to keep everybody alive, and get them to full health after the fight, for next fight. But now there's no real difference, because apparently the cleric is just supposed to wade into the thick of combat and basically only look out for himself.
If you want to talk about other games, heal DoT's don't cause aggro, only direct heals would. The heal dot is supposed to supplement the health of somebody in progress of losing health, and complements the true-healer's direct-heal spells. Its just all backwards. Everybody is supposed to be super-squishy. One-hit kill the mage, two-hit kill the rogue, three-hit kill the cleric, and four-hit kill the fighter. The cleric is supposed to turn that "four-hit kill" into "keep-getting-hit-but-won't-go-down." The fighter, as an average player in a one-on-one fight with a boss for example, is supposed to keep the boss focused on him, no matter what! A very good player would be able to keep EVERYTHING focused on him. Just keeping one mob on him should require no player skill.
And what about "needing a rogue"? Nobody "needs" a rogue unless they want DPS. Need vs Want. I remember when groups needed a rogue or else there was no party, because the quests become either impossible or impossibly difficult without one.
The aggro mechanics are different in this game as compared to so many others. As i've stated in another similar thread..we wanted to play a ~new sort of mmorpg & they delivered...now ppl are complaining for what they got.
If i stick out my middle finger at someone they are taunted until someone then hits em with a ball bat. just makes sense.
I play Tera where healers can pull tons of aggro. Every one of our heals is a CRIT on the boss' aggro meter on top of most bosses have a separate RANGE aggro table with range only abilities that usually get aimed at the healer AND also have abilities that are used depending on who is furthest (usually that is the healer in that game). There is a sheer sense of danger. Also tanks cannot just taunt, they have aggro generation on their hard-hitting attacks.
I also play DDO where intimidate is used to pull back but you cannot just spam it, you need to have enough DPS to hold him most of the time.
In neither of those games can the tank just sit there spamming taunt/intimidate while blocking.
If I walk into a boss room first, the aggro will be on me. The tank can take it. The aggro should not CONTINUE to be on me without me doing anything while 3 DPS and a tank are beating on the boss. That is not interesting game design or battles, it is simply nonsensical.
I don't remember any D&D video game, or pencil & paper, where we are forced to chug a dozen healing potions every major fight, and only several for every other fight. The cleric is supposed to do minimal DPS (and general support) while he's not focused on healing and removing poisons, curses, disease, etc. The holy trinity used in all those other crappy MMO games are a direct result of D&D! So why should other games ruin it and prevent our game from following that? Otherwise, just as it states about Background and Religion having no real impact on gameplay... such applies to Class choice, too. I guess it doesn't matter if I'm a tiefling cleric or a dwarf wizard, or a halfling fighter... I guess it doesn't matter if I have a full party of just rogues. I guess it doesn't matter if I actually have some playing skill because the game is clearly defined to have "common-denominator" gameplay. Perhaps that's the Korean flavor to a traditionally North American game.
I agree that if the cleric was capable of actually keeping somebody alive during a fight, he should get aggro. But he can't... not even close. For awhile I thought the aggro was just because of his race.. until I figured out he needs to stay out of combat completely. And then he doesn't get any drops or XP; he only gets the end chest, and quest XP.
And you know, I like being the support healer when I get bored with DPS or tanking. I can stay out of combat, feel no pressure about drawing aggro. My job is to keep everybody alive, and get them to full health after the fight, for next fight. But now there's no real difference, because apparently the cleric is just supposed to wade into the thick of combat and basically only look out for himself.
If you want to talk about other games, heal DoT's don't cause aggro, only direct heals would. The heal dot is supposed to supplement the health of somebody in progress of losing health, and complements the true-healer's direct-heal spells. Its just all backwards. Everybody is supposed to be super-squishy. One-hit kill the mage, two-hit kill the rogue, three-hit kill the cleric, and four-hit kill the fighter. The cleric is supposed to turn that "four-hit kill" into "keep-getting-hit-but-won't-go-down." The fighter, as an average player in a one-on-one fight with a boss for example, is supposed to keep the boss focused on him, no matter what! A very good player would be able to keep EVERYTHING focused on him. Just keeping one mob on him should require no player skill.
And what about "needing a rogue"? Nobody "needs" a rogue unless they want DPS. Need vs Want. I remember when groups needed a rogue or else there was no party, because the quests become either impossible or impossibly difficult without one.
I don't know of any game where healing over time gives you aggro. Even in Tera where heals count as crits on the aggro table and leveling up can be a pain (mellows out at cap)... you use HOTs to avoid aggro and actual heals are the only ones that pull aggro.
I played GW2 and that stuff was just... ehhhhhhhhh... but they didn't make the mistake of making a HEALER class (I'm sorry to inform you but cleric has healing on most of their spells, no such thing in GW2)... I am not comprehending what cleric is supposed to get as a perk in this game with the huge self-heal nerf and the stupid aggro. Lower dps than dps, lower defense than guardian... and still has to chug pots... what is the point?
You want no healer class, period, like GW2 (just so we are clear, this game is NOT innovating that aspect, nor the combat action-y feel... GW2 for first thing, Tera for the other)... then don't make one. Right now, there are NO perks to the cleric class.
0
vorheeis302Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited March 2013
I know I played both the Tank and Healer and there is something wrong with the Aggro. When I do any heal even when the tank casts 1 of his 2 abilities to gain aggro I get it. As the tank there are not many option to pull aggro and they rarly work for more than a couple of seconds before they are back on the healer. I would say I need more pratice as a tank but at a lvl 35 and all points spent in tanking abilities and only a couple of powers I can use I doubt I need more pratice. I agree this mechanic is broken.
Hey everybody, just want to chime in and let you know that both Guardian Fighter and Devoted Cleric aggros are being looked at. Thanks for the feedback!
Just quoting this since it seems to have been missed by people who continue to post.
The problem is that Heals genarate alot more aggro then damage does.. SO much so that if the tank losse's aggro mobs go for who ever is healing.. Why doesn't the mobs go after the dps? Rogues do alot of single target dps so why doesn't mobs go after then?
0
enochMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 7Arc User
i believe it's not so much to do with aggro as it is improved mob AI
that is,...mobs are smarter
this does not need to be fixed XD
I agree 100%, if I were a mob I'd go right to the healer and kill them.
Also, people are used to how easy it is to play a group with the same strategy as the vanilla mmo's out there. In D&D and other harder mmo's and games, the dps and healers need to watch their activity or get mobbed and killed. This is something lacking in most players nowadays; the ability to adapt and become better at tactics that are more in line with the real world. I haven't had a chance to play a healer yet in this game, but I have in every other mmo I have ever played and I've heard a lot over the years from people who have neither tanked nor healed full time, constantly saying how the game-play should change, or how bad all the healers/tanks they are opposite to are; if they are a tank, then healers suck, if they try healing then tanks don't aggro enough, or the tank takes too much damage. It's never, "boy do I suck, maybe I should stick to dps that can feign death when I start ruining the aggro in the group" :P This is why GW2 and others are so popular with the End Gamers (dps heads), it takes all of the traditional D&D style group dynamics right out; no healer, no dedicated tank, no challenge. And we often end up with a game for COD players to show off how much better gamers they are than MMOers, that MMOers end up leaving, and the End Gamers claim the game failed after they annoy casual gamers right out of the game. They ruined WOW, then went on to the rest of the MMOs. I just hope that the people who make the games wise up to how segmented their audience actually is, so they don't accidentally try catering to both at the same time and then making a failure of a game for both. This one, thank god, doesn't seem to be a game that is going to be reminding everyone why being max level and having everything is the best. I want a game-play experience I can get into and enjoy, and not feel like a lot of work just to catch up to my friends who are playing a completely different kind of game than I want to play in their end game universe. I am not going to pay for wow for a year just to finally get to where I can group with my friends :P
So anyway, the short of it is that too many people have been contributing their opinions as being the definitive opinions, while having a very narrow view of things to be able to base their opinion on, and it's been that way for a looooong time. It is only a problem when the people who are listening to the opinions don't understand who they are listening to. They hear the perspective, but often misunderstand it. As far as I can tell, even with all of the ways they simplified this game since alpha, it looks to me like they know what they are doing, and aren't thinking beyond the reality of what they can give their customers, and gain as many more as possible when the game comes out. It worked for them on STO, while I don't play it as much as I used to, the amount of dedicated players has allowed the game to survive mostly because new players always have someone to play with, and they provide a lot to the users for the cost. SWTOR should have done better; better graphics, better story, voice acting everywhere. But they are struggling compared to STO because they focused a lot on end game, and the main game is a single player game you can play with your friends, and strangers, which is a nice twist, but without a lot to make someone replay the game, once you finish, it's over. And as someone who doesn't do end game, that's when I move on to a new mmo.
Now if I could only summarize that all in a few sentences
0
enochMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 7Arc User
Hey everybody, just want to chime in and let you know that both Guardian Fighter and Devoted Cleric aggros are being looked at. Thanks for the feedback!
Well, don't go too crazy with any modifications, the game should still be challenging, and many complaints are from the kind of players that get power leveled through the low levels of mmo's, and have no clue that aggro is something that is difficult in every game at low levels. I said in another post that I usually play a healer or tank in games, and I cannot count the number of times a group-mate, usually a wizard, complained that they should be able to unleash their full fury and the tank and healer should be able to keep up with the aggro and healing no matter what he does. In no mmo does the dps NOT take aggro when unleashing their fury, except in experienced groups in high levels, which is what most of these kind of players have played most of their games.
So consider the source when reacting to the player base, it is a very diverse group, with very little overlap, and many like to have strong and baseless opinions. Plus if it's too easy, it can become boring before anyone realizes. But maybe changes need to be made, I'm not sure, I never saw any issues in the groups I was in. A lot of people are good at adapting to the different play style, and are aware of how aggro should work in RL; unless everyone makes an effort at the beginning, the healer is going to get it the first time they heal Brutal, but realistic, and pretty standard in mmo's until the tank gets their taunting skills up higher. Yeah, I really believe many players barely pay attention to their low level playing in the other games they've played, since many joined to play with their friends at high level, and nothing else. And of course, at high level, everyone becomes an expert
0
shphgrMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I agree 100%, if I were a mob I'd go right to the healer and kill them.
Also, people are used to how easy it is to play a group with the same strategy as the vanilla mmo's out there. In D&D and other harder mmo's and games, the dps and healers need to watch their activity or get mobbed and killed. This is something lacking in most players nowadays; the ability to adapt and become better at tactics that are more in line with the real world. I haven't had a chance to play a healer yet in this game, but I have in every other mmo I have ever played and I've heard a lot over the years from people who have neither tanked nor healed full time, constantly saying how the game-play should change, or how bad all the healers/tanks they are opposite to are; if they are a tank, then healers suck, if they try healing then tanks don't aggro enough, or the tank takes too much damage. It's never, "boy do I suck, maybe I should stick to dps that can feign death when I start ruining the aggro in the group" :P This is why GW2 and others are so popular with the End Gamers (dps heads), it takes all of the traditional D&D style group dynamics right out; no healer, no dedicated tank, no challenge. And we often end up with a game for COD players to show off how much better gamers they are than MMOers, that MMOers end up leaving, and the End Gamers claim the game failed after they annoy casual gamers right out of the game. They ruined WOW, then went on to the rest of the MMOs. I just hope that the people who make the games wise up to how segmented their audience actually is, so they don't accidentally try catering to both at the same time and then making a failure of a game for both. This one, thank god, doesn't seem to be a game that is going to be reminding everyone why being max level and having everything is the best. I want a game-play experience I can get into and enjoy, and not feel like a lot of work just to catch up to my friends who are playing a completely different kind of game than I want to play in their end game universe. I am not going to pay for wow for a year just to finally get to where I can group with my friends :P
So anyway, the short of it is that too many people have been contributing their opinions as being the definitive opinions, while having a very narrow view of things to be able to base their opinion on, and it's been that way for a looooong time. It is only a problem when the people who are listening to the opinions don't understand who they are listening to. They hear the perspective, but often misunderstand it. As far as I can tell, even with all of the ways they simplified this game since alpha, it looks to me like they know what they are doing, and aren't thinking beyond the reality of what they can give their customers, and gain as many more as possible when the game comes out. It worked for them on STO, while I don't play it as much as I used to, the amount of dedicated players has allowed the game to survive mostly because new players always have someone to play with, and they provide a lot to the users for the cost. SWTOR should have done better; better graphics, better story, voice acting everywhere. But they are struggling compared to STO because they focused a lot on end game, and the main game is a single player game you can play with your friends, and strangers, which is a nice twist, but without a lot to make someone replay the game, once you finish, it's over. And as someone who doesn't do end game, that's when I move on to a new mmo.
Now if I could only summarize that all in a few sentences
the way aggro USED to be meassured was a form of AI: you do a lot of damage->the mob "hates" you. you do a lot of healing? the same. then there is a player-forced aggro which is the role of the tank. think of it like if a rogue simply stabs a mob, then the tank not only stabs him, but also saying things about the mobs family members^^.
imagine yourself going into pvp, and you see a healer and you go after him, only to realize that for half the match now the healer has healed for about 10% of a pearsons life and doing nothing else. will you continue to go after him or will you switch your target to the rogue that has already killed 3 of your buddies?
the way that it was in the bugged last beta was that from the moment a healer got aggro from a single healing spell, then he wouldn't lose it till the mob died. that isn't "smarter" AI, that is way, way dumber than in any mmo till now.
saying things like "change the team dynamics" and all is nice. but you actually need TOOLS to do so. tools that the devoted cleric doesn't have atm (and if they fix the aggro bug he won't need anyways). for example if the design was for heals to generate such enormous amounts of aggro that all adds would always be on the cleric, then i would assume that he would have an active or passive CC immunity of some kind because in many dungeons adds charge and stun, getting chain stunned till dead when no one can heal you is bad design p.e. Same thing with self-heals, he wouldn't have -50%self heals if he was SUPPOSED to take so much damage and etc etc etc.
you can say however you like that "the playerbase needs to adapt", but when the actual developer said that this was a bug, when a class is NOT DESIGNED in any capacity to take or avoid this damage the no, you can simply accept that sometimes, bad design/bugs are indeed real.
I find healing with a Devoted Cleric similar to the Bear Shaman back in Age of Conan.
Since you heal and also deal damage the agro calculations are even more complicated but from that to what I
The aggro mechanics are different in this game as compared to so many others. As i've stated in another similar thread..we wanted to play a ~new sort of mmorpg & they delivered...now ppl are complaining for what they got.
If i stick out my middle finger at someone they are taunted until someone then hits em with a ball bat. just makes sense.
~new sort of mmorpg....
So a New excting MMO, equals No tanks, because the mobs are supposly "smarter" and know not to **** around
No, thats incredibility stupid,
and your argument is flawed, you know why ?
cause you are trying to use Logic....In a world of Orcs, Elves, Magic and mysteriy,
you CAN'T use logic
logic came in saw the tiny little gnome throw a ball of Fire from his tiny little hands that evaporated half a room full og people
then Logic decided "**** it, I'm not needed here" went home and got Drunk
Remember the Count of Tanks, Healer and DPS in most MMO's
80% DPS, 15% healers and around 5% Tanks
yeah, lets make sure that thoes 5% that wants to be a meatshield
thoes that grind 3x times as long as a DPS to complete Quest because the DPS is Down the drain
Lets make sure that the one thing they enjoy,
the ONE and ONLY Purpose a tank has
lets just removed that from them, lets see how the Dps likes to get hit...yiir Great business plan
with that rate the game wil die faster then you can say "Age of Connan"
0
tendiceMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited April 2013
Also a thing to remember,
everyone are like "yeah sure I'll kill the Healer first"
well my countless battlegrounds experince in Various MMO, beg to differ
0
kotliMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 577
everyone are like "yeah sure I'll kill the Healer first"
well my countless battlegrounds experince in Various MMO, beg to differ
Yeah in my experience the one you want to kill first is those nasty wizards, rogues etc that bring the big damage, then the healers and lastly the tanks.
0
bpphantomMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
This kind of behaviour (gank the healer first), is why defenders designed how they are in 4E. If you don't attack the defender there's a penalty attached. The simplest and easiest to ignore is that all attacks that don't include the defender are at -2 to hit. Then there are all the riders to the various marks, you take damage, defender gets an OA, etc.
Thankfully the various aggro levels were investigated and tweaked. I have no doubt that they'll continue to be watched and tweaked more after the 30th.
- bpphantom
Grace, Tiefling Devoted Cleric
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are. Then leave the rest to Batman."
All i hear is blah blah blah from mogwai cant excpect the cleric to tank wat is the point to have one if he cant even hold aggro think about it buddy think before you speak
Funny that some people think this game is an extension to the tabletop experience.
This is a MMO first, D&D second and the enemies are not smart, they obey an aggro table that was way unbalanced and Cryptic was working on improving it. Simple as that.
Comments
This.
Managing aggro is a must, but when one spell seems to be all it takes, something is just not right.
no, WE need to make it work --> http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?97111-Clerics-Aggro-wtf&p=1470071&viewfull=1#post1470071
key word = different
discussing & often complaining about the imaginary.
[SIGPIC]http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=1618000&dateline=1316204434[/SIGPIC]
Somehow, fighters became completely useless. Just party with a devotee, one rogue, and everybody else has to play a wizard or they will never find a group.
EDIT: I think I figured out why beta was offered to founders.... They would be less likely to never play again because they've already paid. After seeing these class issues, I don't see the point to play at all. Tactics and strategy has been completely removed and replaced with "stand still and left-click." If you're trying to be a tank, or healer, and you think you're doing it wrong.. You'd be wrong. The game doesn't involve tanking or healing mechanics. Spend all your AD on healing potions! Nobody else is gonna heal you.
i still don't understand why you keep spamming this idea when it is clear that it wont work (you can read why on the answer in the thread you linked). seriously, first play a cleric and then you will see WHY it wont work for yourself.
DM: "The orc swings an axe at Fred the Fighter, slicing through his breast plate and cutting into his side. Fred, you take 6 hit points of damage."
Fred the Fighter: "****. I only have 6 hit points left. Heal me Chris!"
Chris the Cleric: "I cast Cure Light Wounds on Fred the Fighter."
DM: "Chris the Cleric steps up behind Fred the Fighter and places his hands on the mid section of his back. Healing energy flows forth and Fred's wounds begin to close. The orcs don't seem to notice anything out of place and the second orc stabs at Fred with his spear, barely missing him."
As you can see...it's just not D&D. Sure, we healed in combat in D&D. When someone got hit so hard they were nearly knocked out. They had to be standing still for the cleric to be able to heal them, and most of the time healing occurred after combat. The pace of battle should be so intense that healing during combat would be very, very risky.
BUT, as I've said before, Neverwinter does not seem to be a D&D MMO. It seems to be a standard, hack and slash, fantasy MMO in the Forgotten Realms setting. So, with that in mind, it seems like these aggro issues do need to be resolved.
or that the AI is smarter than the players?
cause i'm not gettin it..every endgame vid i saw the cleric easily solos instances...better than my guardian
edit: actually i do get it..everyone wants something with high HP to stick their pointy things into, so now they are changing the game for you...take note lol
discussing & often complaining about the imaginary.
[SIGPIC]http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=1618000&dateline=1316204434[/SIGPIC]
I'm not going to bad mouth a game I'm starting to actually like, but how is this game, an action RPG with big enemies that telegraph attacks so you can either dodge or block at appropriate times all while integrating the holy trinity, any different from Monster Hunter, Tera, C9, or Raider Z? Because it takes place in a DnD setting? That's like saying any number of crappy korean MMOs with the same gameplay mechanics and feel of WoW are different because they take place in the other mystical medieval setting with fantastical creatures at war with one another.
As a tank, I value the cleric above everyone else. Tanking and healing are both difficult jobs to do. One has you manage enemies to ensure no one else is hit or dies, the other makes sure to use what heals at a certain times on which allies when and why to keep from pulling too much aggro away from the tank. Having the heal:aggro ratio this messed up means two pieces of the trinity are broken- a tank that can't hold aggro, and a healer that gets themself killed. Almost as bad as a DPS that can't dish out damage.
That said, this is easily fixable. I feel enemy AI has tiers in how smart it can be, with the lowest tier going after whoever had the highest threat on them. When you get to end game bosses, then it'll make sense they go straight for the healer, but a low level orc grunt? Or a kobold? Since when do wererats know the difference between the guy healing and the guy hurting? I'm surprised they figured out the pointy end of their sword goes in the other guy.
I'm thankful they're addressing it, however. I'm only concerned hoping they make the correct adjustments instead of removing all aggro created from healing. It should exist, but it should be outclassed by a tank that knows how to taunt and hold aggro.
No one is saying the cleric can't handle one mob, they are saying the cleric can't handle 10 mobs, all of whom have the sole intent to kill said cleric. The problem isn't that the cleric can gain aggro, or even that it is easier than games past to gain the aggro. The problem is that the cleric gains the aggro of nearly everything and then there is no way to remove it.
You have mentioned that it is improved AI and that the mobs are now focused on healers the same way players do in an encounter. So let me set a scenario for you... A player group, consisting of a devout cleric (DC), guardian fighter (Tank), and three trickster rogues (DPS), is in a dungeon. They come to the boss fight which has the big bad boss (BBB), cannon fodder minions (CFMs), and healing minions (HMs). The tank engages the BBB, the DPS heads to kill the CFMs, and the cleric waits. On the other end, the BBB doesn't like the tank hitting him and calling him bad names so he attacks. The HMs see their boss taking damage so they start to heal him. As for the CFMs, a couple go to help the BBB, a couple try to defend the HMs, and one or two head over to the cleric, as they don't really like to fight and the guy just standing around looks like easy prey.
Pretty typical stuff so far. Now, at this point the tank is starting to take damage, so the cleric decides to heal him. He tosses a heal that restores less than 1% of the the tanks total HP. WHAT!?!?!?! At this point ALL the CFMs turn their attention to the healer and head straight for him. The tank sees this and gives them the middle finger, usually enough to draw some of them away, but nope, not this time. As the cleric starts to cast whatever minimal heals they have on themselves in between chugging heal pots, the DPS group comes over and starts hacking on the CFMs. The CFMs don't care that they are dying quickly, they just keep hacking and slashing at the cleric. As the cleric nears death the DPS is able to kill off most of the CFMs, only to find out that BBB just called in another group, which apparently heard that the cleric had the ability to do some minor cures, so they immediately head to destroy the cleric. And then the next spawn does the same, etc, etc.
Is this really the way that a player group functions? NO! We attack the healers because they can actually heal the boss for close to the same amount of damage we can do. If they only healed for 1 or 2% of the BBB's total health, we would ignore them and kill the boss anyway. The awesome AI you mention takes any heal cast by the cleric as priority #1, #2, #3, and #4.
If a DPSer is attacking the boss and a group of CFMs come over and start hacking on him, does the DPSer just keep attacking the boss? NO! They turn to kill the CFM and then go back to the boss. The awesome AI here just completely ignores said DPS and continues to target the cleric. If the AI was really the issue here, the CFM would attack anyone who has a belt full of heal pots, as they are way more effective at keeping players alive than anything the cleric can send their way.
The part of this game that is DIFFERENT is that the cleric is not just a healbot. The cleric alone cannnot keep the tank alive. They are able to supplement everyone's self healing, and for a short burst gain back a good chunk of someone's health. They also help to mitigate the overall damage being done to the party, and even throw in some dps of their own in the meantime.
In regular instances ALL the current classes are able to solo effectively. Some easier than others, but reports from the players say that all can do it. The problem everyone is addressing here except you is that the aggro system is currently not working correctly. Why do we all think that? Because the dev posts all say that it isn't. Not sure why that is so hard to understand.
no, everyone is saying that a class without ANY form of mitigration (50% reduced selfhealing and etc) can't handle ~5-10mobs that charge+stun as they spawn.
your idea that "other" party members protect the cleric would be valid if somehow those "other" classes could get aggro OFF the cleric. when not even the tank with it's taunts and etc can take aggro then it is impossible for a dps class to do so.
your other idea that party members surround the cleric only adds to the difficulty of targetting the tank with a heal since the cleric's view is not hindered by it's own party members (that with companions can reach 8 people around you). Also, it doesn't change anything. the mobs aren't "smarter" as you claim them to be. they just tunnel vision the cleric which casted a single heal. for the remainder of the encounter, even if the cleric did nothing and the dps were flanking and hitting the mobs as the cleric is running around they still wouldn't turn and start hitting the dps.
You clearly main a dps class, so i ask you: would you find it "fun" if every single damage ability you had also had "this attack builds additional aggro" and only your CC didn't had that?
Would you find it fun if every time the adds spawned every mob would get a buff that said "mobs are immune to damage till the tank kills them" ?
because, as it was in the last beta, the moment adds were spawning the cleric couldn't heal.
"solo" instances is relevant. a trickster with a healing companion does so better when you are above 20-25lvl, the killing speed for the cleric drops down significantly and his self-reduced healing means that he cannot tank the mobs. from my experience the tanking companion worked pretty well to hold aggro from ONE mob, and this was the most efficient way for me as a cleric to solo, which would also cut down my dps even more.
once again, you speak for a class without having playing it. Your ideas wont work any more that say this idea would:
cleric gets an ability that tranfers 100% damage and CC received to nearest trickster. also takes his share of the gold just because gold if fun:P.
i haven't played a rogue, and i cannot advocate changes about him, he seemed pretty **** OP to me, BUT you wont see me anywhere saying nerf rogue OR rogue is fine, reason: i haven't played one so i wouldn't know. Your experience from a cleric is "the guy in the back that makes me drink fewer pots and probably doing some damage" yet somehow you even figured out that the gameplay atm is the way cryptic wants clerics to be. This is AFTER crytic said: sorry clerics it was obviously not intended for you to draw so much aggro.
The whole point is that if somethings not working we got to look for a solution, mine was the ONLY viable one without actually being a dev employed by PWE.
The tank role (which is not even needed), would be targetable because everyone would still be moving around. The cleric would build action points because inbetween heals they are attacking the adds & since the DD's are so OP as nearly everyone agrees on, then there should be enough time for everyone to DD on the boss/heal for a moment before the next wave.
As for having all the aggro as a cleric, i would love it...anywhere i go the loot would be all mine XD
but there's no point in going on about it since they are reworking it, we will have to see what they came up with later. In fact i was already unsub'ed from this thread.
discussing & often complaining about the imaginary.
[SIGPIC]http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=1618000&dateline=1316204434[/SIGPIC]
I don't remember any D&D video game, or pencil & paper, where we are forced to chug a dozen healing potions every major fight, and only several for every other fight. The cleric is supposed to do minimal DPS (and general support) while he's not focused on healing and removing poisons, curses, disease, etc. The holy trinity used in all those other crappy MMO games are a direct result of D&D! So why should other games ruin it and prevent our game from following that? Otherwise, just as it states about Background and Religion having no real impact on gameplay... such applies to Class choice, too. I guess it doesn't matter if I'm a tiefling cleric or a dwarf wizard, or a halfling fighter... I guess it doesn't matter if I have a full party of just rogues. I guess it doesn't matter if I actually have some playing skill because the game is clearly defined to have "common-denominator" gameplay. Perhaps that's the Korean flavor to a traditionally North American game.
I agree that if the cleric was capable of actually keeping somebody alive during a fight, he should get aggro. But he can't... not even close. For awhile I thought the aggro was just because of his race.. until I figured out he needs to stay out of combat completely. And then he doesn't get any drops or XP; he only gets the end chest, and quest XP.
And you know, I like being the support healer when I get bored with DPS or tanking. I can stay out of combat, feel no pressure about drawing aggro. My job is to keep everybody alive, and get them to full health after the fight, for next fight. But now there's no real difference, because apparently the cleric is just supposed to wade into the thick of combat and basically only look out for himself.
If you want to talk about other games, heal DoT's don't cause aggro, only direct heals would. The heal dot is supposed to supplement the health of somebody in progress of losing health, and complements the true-healer's direct-heal spells. Its just all backwards. Everybody is supposed to be super-squishy. One-hit kill the mage, two-hit kill the rogue, three-hit kill the cleric, and four-hit kill the fighter. The cleric is supposed to turn that "four-hit kill" into "keep-getting-hit-but-won't-go-down." The fighter, as an average player in a one-on-one fight with a boss for example, is supposed to keep the boss focused on him, no matter what! A very good player would be able to keep EVERYTHING focused on him. Just keeping one mob on him should require no player skill.
And what about "needing a rogue"? Nobody "needs" a rogue unless they want DPS. Need vs Want. I remember when groups needed a rogue or else there was no party, because the quests become either impossible or impossibly difficult without one.
I play Tera where healers can pull tons of aggro. Every one of our heals is a CRIT on the boss' aggro meter on top of most bosses have a separate RANGE aggro table with range only abilities that usually get aimed at the healer AND also have abilities that are used depending on who is furthest (usually that is the healer in that game). There is a sheer sense of danger. Also tanks cannot just taunt, they have aggro generation on their hard-hitting attacks.
I also play DDO where intimidate is used to pull back but you cannot just spam it, you need to have enough DPS to hold him most of the time.
In neither of those games can the tank just sit there spamming taunt/intimidate while blocking.
If I walk into a boss room first, the aggro will be on me. The tank can take it. The aggro should not CONTINUE to be on me without me doing anything while 3 DPS and a tank are beating on the boss. That is not interesting game design or battles, it is simply nonsensical.
I don't know of any game where healing over time gives you aggro. Even in Tera where heals count as crits on the aggro table and leveling up can be a pain (mellows out at cap)... you use HOTs to avoid aggro and actual heals are the only ones that pull aggro.
I played GW2 and that stuff was just... ehhhhhhhhh... but they didn't make the mistake of making a HEALER class (I'm sorry to inform you but cleric has healing on most of their spells, no such thing in GW2)... I am not comprehending what cleric is supposed to get as a perk in this game with the huge self-heal nerf and the stupid aggro. Lower dps than dps, lower defense than guardian... and still has to chug pots... what is the point?
You want no healer class, period, like GW2 (just so we are clear, this game is NOT innovating that aspect, nor the combat action-y feel... GW2 for first thing, Tera for the other)... then don't make one. Right now, there are NO perks to the cleric class.
Just quoting this since it seems to have been missed by people who continue to post.
I agree 100%, if I were a mob I'd go right to the healer and kill them.
Also, people are used to how easy it is to play a group with the same strategy as the vanilla mmo's out there. In D&D and other harder mmo's and games, the dps and healers need to watch their activity or get mobbed and killed. This is something lacking in most players nowadays; the ability to adapt and become better at tactics that are more in line with the real world. I haven't had a chance to play a healer yet in this game, but I have in every other mmo I have ever played and I've heard a lot over the years from people who have neither tanked nor healed full time, constantly saying how the game-play should change, or how bad all the healers/tanks they are opposite to are; if they are a tank, then healers suck, if they try healing then tanks don't aggro enough, or the tank takes too much damage. It's never, "boy do I suck, maybe I should stick to dps that can feign death when I start ruining the aggro in the group" :P This is why GW2 and others are so popular with the End Gamers (dps heads), it takes all of the traditional D&D style group dynamics right out; no healer, no dedicated tank, no challenge. And we often end up with a game for COD players to show off how much better gamers they are than MMOers, that MMOers end up leaving, and the End Gamers claim the game failed after they annoy casual gamers right out of the game. They ruined WOW, then went on to the rest of the MMOs. I just hope that the people who make the games wise up to how segmented their audience actually is, so they don't accidentally try catering to both at the same time and then making a failure of a game for both. This one, thank god, doesn't seem to be a game that is going to be reminding everyone why being max level and having everything is the best. I want a game-play experience I can get into and enjoy, and not feel like a lot of work just to catch up to my friends who are playing a completely different kind of game than I want to play in their end game universe. I am not going to pay for wow for a year just to finally get to where I can group with my friends :P
So anyway, the short of it is that too many people have been contributing their opinions as being the definitive opinions, while having a very narrow view of things to be able to base their opinion on, and it's been that way for a looooong time. It is only a problem when the people who are listening to the opinions don't understand who they are listening to. They hear the perspective, but often misunderstand it. As far as I can tell, even with all of the ways they simplified this game since alpha, it looks to me like they know what they are doing, and aren't thinking beyond the reality of what they can give their customers, and gain as many more as possible when the game comes out. It worked for them on STO, while I don't play it as much as I used to, the amount of dedicated players has allowed the game to survive mostly because new players always have someone to play with, and they provide a lot to the users for the cost. SWTOR should have done better; better graphics, better story, voice acting everywhere. But they are struggling compared to STO because they focused a lot on end game, and the main game is a single player game you can play with your friends, and strangers, which is a nice twist, but without a lot to make someone replay the game, once you finish, it's over. And as someone who doesn't do end game, that's when I move on to a new mmo.
Now if I could only summarize that all in a few sentences
Well, don't go too crazy with any modifications, the game should still be challenging, and many complaints are from the kind of players that get power leveled through the low levels of mmo's, and have no clue that aggro is something that is difficult in every game at low levels. I said in another post that I usually play a healer or tank in games, and I cannot count the number of times a group-mate, usually a wizard, complained that they should be able to unleash their full fury and the tank and healer should be able to keep up with the aggro and healing no matter what he does. In no mmo does the dps NOT take aggro when unleashing their fury, except in experienced groups in high levels, which is what most of these kind of players have played most of their games.
So consider the source when reacting to the player base, it is a very diverse group, with very little overlap, and many like to have strong and baseless opinions. Plus if it's too easy, it can become boring before anyone realizes. But maybe changes need to be made, I'm not sure, I never saw any issues in the groups I was in. A lot of people are good at adapting to the different play style, and are aware of how aggro should work in RL; unless everyone makes an effort at the beginning, the healer is going to get it the first time they heal
the way aggro USED to be meassured was a form of AI: you do a lot of damage->the mob "hates" you. you do a lot of healing? the same. then there is a player-forced aggro which is the role of the tank. think of it like if a rogue simply stabs a mob, then the tank not only stabs him, but also saying things about the mobs family members^^.
imagine yourself going into pvp, and you see a healer and you go after him, only to realize that for half the match now the healer has healed for about 10% of a pearsons life and doing nothing else. will you continue to go after him or will you switch your target to the rogue that has already killed 3 of your buddies?
the way that it was in the bugged last beta was that from the moment a healer got aggro from a single healing spell, then he wouldn't lose it till the mob died. that isn't "smarter" AI, that is way, way dumber than in any mmo till now.
saying things like "change the team dynamics" and all is nice. but you actually need TOOLS to do so. tools that the devoted cleric doesn't have atm (and if they fix the aggro bug he won't need anyways). for example if the design was for heals to generate such enormous amounts of aggro that all adds would always be on the cleric, then i would assume that he would have an active or passive CC immunity of some kind because in many dungeons adds charge and stun, getting chain stunned till dead when no one can heal you is bad design p.e. Same thing with self-heals, he wouldn't have -50%self heals if he was SUPPOSED to take so much damage and etc etc etc.
you can say however you like that "the playerbase needs to adapt", but when the actual developer said that this was a bug, when a class is NOT DESIGNED in any capacity to take or avoid this damage the no, you can simply accept that sometimes, bad design/bugs are indeed real.
Since you heal and also deal damage the agro calculations are even more complicated but from that to what I
Jasbinschek D' Forc - GWF lvl 60 8.5K GS (for now)
~new sort of mmorpg....
So a New excting MMO, equals No tanks, because the mobs are supposly "smarter" and know not to **** around
No, thats incredibility stupid,
and your argument is flawed, you know why ?
cause you are trying to use Logic....In a world of Orcs, Elves, Magic and mysteriy,
you CAN'T use logic
logic came in saw the tiny little gnome throw a ball of Fire from his tiny little hands that evaporated half a room full og people
then Logic decided "**** it, I'm not needed here" went home and got Drunk
Remember the Count of Tanks, Healer and DPS in most MMO's
80% DPS, 15% healers and around 5% Tanks
yeah, lets make sure that thoes 5% that wants to be a meatshield
thoes that grind 3x times as long as a DPS to complete Quest because the DPS is Down the drain
Lets make sure that the one thing they enjoy,
the ONE and ONLY Purpose a tank has
lets just removed that from them, lets see how the Dps likes to get hit...yiir Great business plan
with that rate the game wil die faster then you can say "Age of Connan"
everyone are like "yeah sure I'll kill the Healer first"
well my countless battlegrounds experince in Various MMO, beg to differ
Yeah in my experience the one you want to kill first is those nasty wizards, rogues etc that bring the big damage, then the healers and lastly the tanks.
Thankfully the various aggro levels were investigated and tweaked. I have no doubt that they'll continue to be watched and tweaked more after the 30th.
Grace, Tiefling Devoted Cleric
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are. Then leave the rest to Batman."
This is a MMO first, D&D second and the enemies are not smart, they obey an aggro table that was way unbalanced and Cryptic was working on improving it. Simple as that.