Why are Tieflings a seperate race?

psyb3rtr011 · April 2013

I have wondered why Tiefling, Dragonborn, Genasi, Celestials, and many other mixed heritage ancestry are considered seperate races, and not a Feat Option to choose at character creation.

I also wonder why they all seem to be human ancestry only, and not other races.

Why can't there be a Elf-Dragonborn, a Halfling-Tiefling, a Dwarf-Celectial or even a Half-Orc-Genasi mix?

After all, in Forgotten realms, there are Whisplings - Halfling/Tieflings

In Spelljammer the Eladrin - Celestial/Elves

Feytouched - Humanoid/Fey

Fey'ri - Sun Elf/Demon

Tannaruk - Half-Orc/Demon

Maeluth - Dwarf/Devil

Draegloth - Drow/Demon

One full list is here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100736

Heck, one could argue that the extra power of Drow, Duergar, and Svifrneblin, could also be Feat selections at character creation.

If a particular subrace is deemed to overbalancing, then perhaps subsequent feats are lost, until relative balance to the base races. A huge advantage at low levels perhaps, but once all the feats are spent, balanced from there out.

Of course, such would have to allow for an altered number of Feats later on, so that they have the same number of powers available as others of their level.

starkaos · April 2013

Because they are not human and implementing something like what you have suggested would be too complex. The more initial races added, the more permutations that are needed. Eventually, they would have to check each permutation to make sure that they are acceptable. The devs have decided that each being in a race will have the same racial abilities. Going with a racial feat system could cause too much balancing issues to deal with. Besides Cryptic could just add whatever race they want and not have to worry about player made races like Halfling/Orcs causing D&D purists having another thing to complain about.

dlcarter · April 2013

Because they are a race
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiefling

gillrmn · April 2013

Tieflings are not mixed hertage.
Dragonborn are not mixed heri....

*sigh*

Just check Lore Intro in my signature and read about races.

deistik · April 2013

It sounds like you just want to have Planetouched as a race, and that would be WAY too complicated.

silvergryph · April 2013

Not all races can interbreed. As for Tieflings, they are the result of a curse. This curse affects all the descendants of the original cursed humans. So I would imagine that no matter what races they could successfully mate with the resulting offspring would be Tieflings.

Dragonborn are not a mixed race in 4E. They are a separate race of mysterious origin. One myth claims that they were created simultaneously with dragons. Another that they were created along with Bahamut and Tiamat from the death of Io. And a third says that they were the first race and that other humanoids and even dragons came after them. But they are not half-dragons or in any way descended from dragons.

And the reason so many human hybrids exist is that in D&D they are the race most capable of cross-breeding with other races. That's our superpower. If it moves... lol

psyb3rtr011 · April 2013

dlcarter wrote: »

Because they are a race
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiefling

I'll take your Wiki and raise you a Forgotten Realms Wiki:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tiefling

"Tieflings are human-based planetouched, native outsiders that are infused with the touch of the fiendish planes, most often through descent from fiends — demons, devils, evil deities, and others who have bred with humans."

and to further my point, they even mention the Elf, Dwarf, Orc and Halfling Equivalents at the bottom: "Similar races include fey'ri, maeluth, tanarukk, and wisplings."

Of course, my link uses the term Race very loosely. Especially given that they do not have to have two Tiefling parents to be Tieflings, as the traits can remain dormant for generations. Also, from what I have read, a Tiefling can have non Tiefling siblings. Not exactly a race, but a "Planetouched" Human.

My original premise stands. Why not the base races, and then add things like Planetouched as something you have to pay for with Feats/Powers.

Heck, a Tieflings manifestations, could come later in life for that matter.

EDIT to add: I did notice the newest incarnation of Tieflings since Asmodeus ascension. Even a Tiefling Half-orc would spawn a Tiefling. Boooo Hiss... I would guess that would be the same for Fey'Ri, Whisplings, Maeluth and Tannaruk! Which begs the question, if a Fey'Ri and a Tiefling have a baby, what is it?

Which begs the question, why isn't there a Celestial equivalent

gillrmn · April 2013

to OP
Your outdated lore is confusing others. Please keep your lore up to date before debating about lore. Especially when threads have been created and stickied to make it convenient for you.

gillrmn wrote: »

Races

Races requires a whole new page due to various changes in the lore. Here we will concentrate on races available in forgotten realms.

Q) Should drow, genasi, tieflings not be rare like devas and half-orcs?
Ans:- No. That is because of changes in 4e.

Drow:- Ever since drizzt has come to surface, many drow have escaped the dark depths and come to surface. They are genrally good as most evil drow follow lolth and live under ground. But the drow child-abuse usually gets them and they are sulking and often selfish.

Official quote on escaped drow is:-
Some free drow find these ingrained bigotries hard to overcome. Each drow who escapes the Underdark must come to terms with what he or she has been taught and what he or she sees in the world around. Those who succeed can lead more or less normal lives, while those who fail must endure a miserable existence, trapped between two worlds and finding no haven in either.

So usually all surface dweller drow in 4e are free of lolth and their being evil is completely independent of their background with lolth.

Dragonborn:- No, dragonborn have nothing to do with dragons. They are probably not reptile either. Their origin is debated but they were either created separately or to serve as dragon slaves. They founded their kingdom Arkhosia and had a long history of war with tieflings. Both of the nations - tieflings and dragonborn were completely destroyed. Then dragonborn kept serving dragons in the realm of Abeir. Then some of the dragonborn won their freedom and formed a seperate kingdom in Abeir. These dragonborn hated dragons with a passion.
After spellplague Abir merged with Toril and this kingdom was ripped apart and placed near cormyr. So for hundred years dragonborn are native of Toril (merged Abeir-Toril) and are regarded as peaceful, diplomatic people who like to raid dragon lairs. They are famous in adventuring parties due to their race being well-versed in fighting dragons.

They like tieflings because they fought them ages ago and know them to be "worthy enemies". So if a tiefling comes along to be added to party, they will take them due to "respect for their strength".

Usually they are honorable and direct - so they are excellent role-playing choice for paladins. Not very good with faith in gods like tieflings and are more self-reliant types.

Dwarves:- Nothing much has changed. Except that Moradin is not tied to dwarves anymore(though he is still respected by most dwarves). It seems dwarven women do not have beard...

Eladrin and Elves:- Will be filled in later, lot to fill here. But basically, Eladrin are fairy folks who use arcane magic (think fairy godmother) while elves are rangers living in forest with not much affinity for arcane but more affinity to nature.

Genasi:- It is said that before gods primordial spirits of elements used to rule the realms. These genasi are manifestation of such primordial spirits.

half-elves:- Not much has changed. Made from human+elf. The Neverwinter's second trailer has half-elf as rogue girl. (See my sharp eyes? Determined that after watching it a few times, knife-ears of her parents and her gave it away.)

halflings:- Never met a ling before, but half lings are the same. I wonder when we will have a ling class, have heard a lot about halflings but never the non-human entity which made them... {jk. there is no such being as ling. Or is it?}

human:- Almost the same except that they are regarded as most tolerant of differences of other races. Also, there was perhaps a god to humans like moradin is to dwarves. That god was most powerful of all gods and had Asmodeus as archangel. He died though (no surprise) but it is said asmodeus is still scared of him to this day. However, we are not sure if that god's lore extends to forgotten realm too or is it just for core.

Tieflings:- There was a very big empire known by the name Bael Turath. Its king went crazy and secretly performed the ceremony of BloodMoon in which he summoned Devils of Nine Hells and signed the contract with blood selling away the souls of common people of his kingdom. The king and nobles of his court got infernal powers because of it and became tieflings. That curse in the bloodline carried though all of the houses of Bael Turath and their features have goat horns and devil tails. They did not turn evil - they only became greedy and power hungry after becoming tieflings.

Later they fought with Dragonborn empire of Arkhosia and both the great empires were destroyed.
The contract binding them became weaker as time passed and the present tieflings are not much influenced by old contract. But it is easier for them to become warlocks compared to others are are more compatible with arcane magic compared to pureblood human. If pureblood human and a tiefling have a child, the child will always be tiefling.

They age the same as human as they are - afterall - human.

silvergryph · April 2013

psyb3rtr011 wrote: »

I'll take your Wiki and raise you a Forgotten Realms Wiki:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tiefling

"Tieflings are human-based planetouched, native outsiders that are infused with the touch of the fiendish planes, most often through descent from fiends — demons, devils, evil deities, and others who have bred with humans."

This is third edition lore. It is outdated as gillrmn points out. Neverwinter lore is based on 4E, not 3E. You have attempted to raise the pot with worthless Confederate currency, I'm afraid.

psyb3rtr011 · April 2013

gillrmn wrote: »

to OP
Your outdated lore is confusing others. Please keep your lore up to date before debating about lore. Especially when threads have been created and stickied to make it convenient for you.

And you wonder why I don't like 4E lore?

It dumbs down the Forgotten Realms with wierd changes with no logic, to make it more Video game like. Bleah.

psyb3rtr011 · April 2013

silvergryph wrote: »

This is third edition lore. It is outdated as gillrmn points out. Neverwinter lore is based on 4E, not 3E. You have attempted to raise the pot with worthless Confederate currency, I'm afraid.

Fair enough. But they are still more powerful (Like Drow) than the normal races. Why play anything else.

BTW: This was the same comment I used to play in D&D 1st & 2nd Editions, when Elves where the Uber-Race, and there was no reason, except to play Paladin or Monk, (Or is you got real lucky and rolled 18(00), not to be an Elf.

ambisinisterr · April 2013

silvergryph wrote: »

Not all races can interbreed. As for Tieflings, they are the result of a curse. This curse affects all the descendants of the original cursed humans. So I would imagine that no matter what races they could successfully mate with the resulting offspring would be Tieflings.

Dhalia is an elf. She gave birth to a full fledge tielfing.
Not a Tielfing/Elf. A Tielfing which resembled Dhalia only in a single eye. That is the only clue to his elven bloodline.

But as to the OP's point at hand...

Fourth edition took all manner of lore and turned it on it's head and put it inside out. Cryptic has stayed incredibly true to ALL of the Fourth Edition Lore. If there's something that's different between your knowledge and what Cryptic has supplied chances are it's because of the changes in Fourth Edition.

I'd take up Gillrmn's suggestions and follow his links and get some updated lore. Tieflings are not Half Demons anymore (even though I preferred them as such) and are as common a race to the realm as elves. The former celestial equivalent, Aasimar, have not been so fortunately blessed by Fourth Edition.

We'll get more races soon enough, don't worry. But before they go crazy adding in all sorts of Planetouched I suspect Cryptic is going to focus on making some more to-heart races like gnomes.

As for why they are separate races instead of feats, well Gill gave a great answer...

But if you really have your heart set on it try asking Wizard's of the Coast. That's a fact of D&D and is not in Cryptic's hands.

psyb3rtr011 · April 2013

ambisinisterr wrote: »

Dhalia is an elf. She gave birth to a full fledge tielfing.
Not a Tielfing/Elf. A Tielfing which resembled Dhalia only in a single eye. That is the only clue to his elven bloodline.

But as to the OP's point at hand...

Fourth edition took all manner of lore and turned it on it's head and put it inside out.

Still no idea why Tiefling suddenly became a race with all the same traits, and not a distant lineage manifestation, that was different in each. No more Cloven Hoofed Tiefer's??? WTF?

ambisinisterr · April 2013

Take it up with Wizards of the Coast. We can only relay the changes they made.

I don't know why they changed it.

Player Handbook One wrote:

Tieflings’ appearance testifies to their infernal bloodline.
They have large horns; thick, nonprehensile tails that range in length from 4 to 5 feet; sharply pointed teeth; and eyes that are solid orbs of black, red, white, silver, or gold. Their skin color covers the whole human range and also extends to reds, from a ruddy tan to a brick red. Their hair, cascading down from behind their horns, is as likely to be dark blue, red, or purple as more common human colors. Tieflings favor dark colors and reds, leathers and glossy furs, small spikes and buckles. Tiefling-crafted arms and armor often have an archaic style, harkening back to the glory of their long-vanished empire.

According to Brimstone Angels: Lesser Evils all tieflings currently alive on Toril are descended from Asmodeus and all have a similar devlish look. Prior to the ascension, the infernal blood could be diluted through intermarriage. Now, the union of a tiefling with another race always produces a tiefling child.

This is official Fourth Edition Lore. That's all I can tell you.

thevlaka · April 2013

because they copied the sith guys from SWTOR.

gillrmn · April 2013

silvergryph wrote: »

This is third edition lore. It is outdated as gillrmn points out. Neverwinter lore is based on 4E, not 3E. You have attempted to raise the pot with worthless Confederate currency, I'm afraid.

Who cares if you like it or not. But before criticizing someone else of being inaccurate you better be accurate.
This is not a place to discuss D&D lore. This is a game with official canon. If you don't like canon, go talk to people who make it. Cryptic can not change the canon because you dont like it.

ticladesign · April 2013

Teiflings are considered "Planetouched" races in NWN2, together with the Genasi, Aasimar. Very likely any extra planar race is considered Planetouched. (not of the realm of Toril)

gillrmn · April 2013

ticladesign wrote: »

Teiflings are considered "Planetouched" races in NWN2, together with the Genasi, Aasimar. Very likely any extra planar race is considered Planetouched. (not of the realm of Toril)

Thank you. Now that I see what people are continuously getting confused with, I know exactly what to add in wiki.

I have upated a few pages, have a look:-
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Dungeons_and_Dragons
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Forgotten_Realms
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Faerun
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Neverwinter

kotli · April 2013

Most Teiflings according to the 4ed PHB are the descendants of the rulers of an ancient human empire that covered half of the world. Also Teiflings are human-demon mixing only. Any offspring of a Teifling is a Teifling don't matter what they mate with and the child looks similar to its teifling parent, theres no part elf Teifling though a Teifling can have an elven parent.
BTW Planetouch is not an extra planar, but the descendent of them mixing with native mortal races. Extraplanar races are celestials, fiends, or elementals.

As for the Dragonborn they are not the result of interracial breeding, they either are born as a dragonborn or are made from other races and are reborn as a dragonborn as part of the process (not sure how often this happens) and so confirm to the racial standards. Any differences between born and made dragonborn are minimal.

ironzerg79 · April 2013

Man, I love a good Lore discussion. Gillrmn, thanks for the extra links.

And yes, 4E revised and retconned a lot of the lore. In some ways, it made things more cohesive, but it also came at the cost of some traditionally held ideas. But that's the nature of the game. D&D is a living entinty that's constantly updating, and it's cool to see Cryptic put so much effort into staying true to the 4E setting.

Whether you agree with the lore changes or not is another topic, but you can't fault Cryptic for the superb job they've done at sticking to it.

yasha00 · April 2013

silvergryph wrote: »

Not all races can interbreed. As for Tieflings, they are the result of a curse. This curse affects all the descendants of the original cursed humans.

Tieflings are the result of a curse; dwarves ARE a curse. Thank the gods we don't see any half-dwarves, dwarf-halfings, or (I feel like vomiting just thinking of it) elf-dwarves....

mutley1984 · April 2013

I love it when people use Wiki to prove a point, it's the same logic as a child saying 'Because my mum said it was, don't make me call her!! I'll do it, then she can tell you too!!'.

Dwelfs hahaha

gillrmn · April 2013

It is strange. I have heard of many dwarves and elves falling in love in FR stories - yet I have not come across a dwarven elf.

Very strange indeed!

EDIT:-
Though half-halflings are present in some FR litreature. Not very common, but they exist and are also called quaterling as a pun on their name.

Unknown · April 2013

This content has been removed.

gillrmn · April 2013

Some species of metallic dragons are able to take on the human form. So it is not that impossible with dragon actually.

trevien29 · April 2013

Because in 4E the lore was simplified to attract a new style of tabletop gamer.

gillrmn · April 2013

trevien29 wrote: »

Because in 4E the lore was simplified to attract a new style of tabletop gamer.

Would you kindly care to explain how, so I can rip your argument apart piece by piece?

And not because 'you feel so' or 'I feel he feels so' arguments, but actual arguments.

ticladesign · April 2013

The removal of pretty much the entire Drow pantheon such as Vhaeraun and Eilistraee is something I cannot call 'simplified to attract a new style of tabletop gamer', honestly. It reeks of butchering the lore so all emphasis lies of Lloth and Drizzt.

Too many roleplayers have had their roleplay destroyed by all these "spellplague" simplifications. So much, 5e is hastely being made to repair the damage. Reason is off course, Pathfinder being increasingly more populair.

Wake me up for a new edition when Eilistraee is back.

trevien29 · April 2013

4E is the reason I play Pathfinder now. The first time I picked up the 4E core books, I said this is designed for MMO players, not role players. My only regret was not returning them. The system should make for a solid MMO, which is why I am going to be playing the game. It is a horrible tabletop game though. DnD next will most likely be better, I mean, I can't see a way for it to get worse. But I will still be playing Pathfinder. Most likely not their MMO though.

demonical3 · April 2013

ticladesign wrote: »

The removal of pretty much the entire Drow pantheon such as Vhaeraun and Eilistraee is something I cannot call 'simplified to attract a new style of tabletop gamer', honestly. It reeks of butchering the lore so all emphasis lies of Lloth and Drizzt.

Too many roleplayers have had their roleplay destroyed by all these "spellplague" simplifications. So much, 5e is hastely being made to repair the damage. Reason is off course, Pathfinder being increasingly more populair.

Wake me up for a new edition when Eilistraee is back.

Did you even read the books? Not saying it was fun having them all die off... but how they killed the drow gods off in the books was realy well written.

syberghost · April 2013

ticladesign wrote: »

Too many roleplayers have had their roleplay destroyed by all these "spellplague" simplifications. So much, 5e is hastely being made to repair the damage. Reason is off course, Pathfinder being increasingly more populair.

Uhm, if you think 5e is "hastily being made", you might want to look at the timelines again. 3e was only around for 7 years; 5e isn't expected to be published until 2014, making 4e 8 years old. 4e will have lasted LONGER than its predecessor. That's hardly a rush...

Why are Tieflings a seperate race?

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