I will definitely be rolling Cleric come Open Beta. I ADORE the way they play!
Would I like a little more power to my self heals? I sure would, I feel they are a bit weak at the moment. But not enough for me to pick another class.
Can't wait for the 27th
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areniusnastradoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 10Arc User
edited April 2013
From all that I've read until now it seems that the Cleric will play itself similar to my DnD 4e controlling healer. Although I still miss the Warlord class...
Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened. (Winston Churchill)
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apocrs1980Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
So what do we get in return though? If we have to drink pots like every other class AND kill slower AND have everyone's life as our responsability... what exactly is the upside?!?! What do we get as a perk?
Guardians get higher survivability.
Wizards get to control mobs to root them down and DPS.
Everyone else gets faster killing.
If we have to down pots just the same, what is the upside of cleric?!?!
I just wanted to drop my 2 cents in here, the cleric is an essential part of any dungeon group makeup, the difference of having a cleric in group and not in group when trying to get through a dungeon was night and day for us!
It was the soul differences of a smooth run compared to that of one comprised of many horrible deaths.
This becomes even more evident at higher levels. I will always be looking for one if I'm going to do any sort of dungeon delving. Just saying
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The Cragsteep Crypt - BETA Ravenloft Look for@Apocrs1980 or visit the main page here or Ravenloft here
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
I just wanted to drop my 2 cents in here, the cleric is an essential part of any dungeon group makeup, the difference of having a cleric in group and not in group when trying to get through a dungeon was night and day for us!
I didn't see it that way at all. I saw them as being just as fun to play as any class, but definitely not more necessary than any other class. I completed both my beta weekend dungeon delves without a cleric in the party. Pretty sure this is by design, that delves are definitely completeable without a 100% dedicated healing class, which is probably why clerics get so many other spells.
I'd be interested in seeing people do the epic dungeons without a cleric, unless those are as easy as the regular dungeons, with more HP on stuff...
There's no substitute for Hallowed Ground on a boss fight.
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bejita231Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited April 2013
50% self heal nerf was the final coffin for me sadly for this class, in pvp the only defense a DC had was his heals, and even then they were not so hot, now a 50% heal nerf means they are completely defensless even when grouped with others, why was nothing give to cleric to compensate for that 50% nerf like more tankiness or more better CC?
No reason in this class other than to save money for potion spamers in PVE dungeons, CW is the only viable pvp ranged spec now
PVE balance means nothing, pve is so easy and faceroll in every MMO that any class can do the content aslong as the group works together, in pvp players are smarter than NPC's and dont just mindlessly run at your tank, i thought cleric was going to be my class but after a last minute kneejerk reaction 50% nerf its just not worth it anymore
this class needs something like 50% less damage whill in divine mode, because this class has zero defenses now and when everyone gangbangs the healer and the healer cant heal himself......what do you think happens?
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gtoxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 10Arc User
edited April 2013
I am not sure what people are talking about. I found the Cleric to be the most self-sufficient class of them all. I quickly saw the value in wearing defense gear, and after that it was just a face-roll all weekend. I think I ended up with around 60-something health pots on my bar, and I had only needed to chug around 5 during the whole weekend (most of those being in the first dungeon since we didn't have a tank).
Maybe this thread just shows the line between good players and bad players. The Cleric felt strong to me, but not too strong. My heals, despite the dreaded self-heal nerf everyone is whining about, felt meaningful and combined with self awareness and dodging I had absolutely no problems with any of the fights.
The only complaint I had throughout the entire weekend was how difficult it was to soft-target melee party members, with the targeted HoT, when there are multiple melee party members present. Healing everyone else was very easy.
Yeah can be tricky when surrounded by adds and trying to target self heals, I agree. BUt I must admit that is an aspect I am really liking. It means you cant be stagnant, rooted to the one spot and tab target healing. Its all about movement, positioning, using CC powers to clear a path, try and land your heal a team mate in trouble. I found that if you informed the players(alot of good ones already knew) that healing is not like alot of other MMO's, if 'you' get in trouble try and pot or get into a clear area and I can target you with ease. When I found those players who listened to this advice and were aware of their surroundings and their positioning and mine, the teamwork design of the game hit me like a DnD truck. It was an absolute blast!
You also have the ability to clear mobs away from your friends in trouble, so many options available to a cleric. I love the class! Such an active, and proactive class to play. Dont write them off guys and gals, the mechanics of the class are really solid, and just new to alot of people. As for 'Righteousness', I do think 50% is still a bit harsh, I would like to see it at around 30% but I do believe in some diminished self heal penalty. That of itself shows to me that our heals actually work! Its just a matter of finding your 'sweet spot' to playing this class, its not easy, but it is rewarding!
I am not sure what people are talking about. I found the Cleric to be the most self-sufficient class of them all. I quickly saw the value in wearing defense gear, and after that it was just a face-roll all weekend. I think I ended up with around 60-something health pots on my bar, and I had only needed to chug around 5 during the whole weekend (most of those being in the first dungeon since we didn't have a tank).
Maybe this thread just shows the line between good players and bad players. The Cleric felt strong to me, but not too strong. My heals, despite the dreaded self-heal nerf everyone is whining about, felt meaningful and combined with self awareness and dodging I had absolutely no problems with any of the fights.
The only complaint I had throughout the entire weekend was how difficult it was to soft-target melee party members, with the targeted HoT, when there are multiple melee party members present. Healing everyone else was very easy.
1. I was talking about glitched BWE3. It was horrid then.
2. The person still complaining above you was talking about pvp which it sounds like you did none of.
I am not a pvp person much, but I gotta agree that I can see the issues in pvp... But I always hate pvp centric balance fixes. They always mess with my pve!!!
They said, they can adjust skills for PvP and PvE seperate? This nerf is 100% for PvP play, so maybe they can improve the self-healing for PvE again.
Yep, exactly. Hopefully that happens. If PvP balance issues start to ruin classes in PvE I'm going to be very very disappointed and my interest will wane rather quickly.
Not true. It has nothing to do with PvP. They stated it had to do with clerics never having to using potions thus building up more gold than other classes.
That's a convenient lie that they told the community because they obviously didn't want to admit it was because of PvP. Not to mention the fact that it's completely irrelevant with the current drop rate of pots anyway.
1. I was talking about glitched BWE3. It was horrid then.
2. The person still complaining above you was talking about pvp which it sounds like you did none of.
I am not a pvp person much, but I gotta agree that I can see the issues in pvp... But I always hate pvp centric balance fixes. They always mess with my pve!!!
Admittedly I only allowed myself time to do one pvp match as I was trying to get to lvl 20 to see the next At-Will for Clerics (which I love) and the 9 second CD stupid-awesome aoe (which I love love love), as well as trying out the Wizard and Guardian (which felt horrible after 20-ish levels of Cleric play).
But regardless, in that one pvp match I was the second highest score, so I guess everyone else was a horrible player....
Personally I only see the PvP in this game as being "enough to satisfy some people's PvP urges". This is definitely not intended to be a "PvP-focused game".
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tarannon1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 16Arc User
edited April 2013
What I dont like about the debuffed selfheals, is that during a dungeonrun in a group setting, the clerics need to use more potions than everyone else, as they don't get the same kind of healing, while still chance the same amount of dmg to self as for instance the strikers.
What I dont like about the debuffed selfheals, is that during a dungeonrun in a group setting, the clerics need to use more potions than everyone else, as they don't get the same kind of healing, while still chance the same amount of dmg to self as for instance the strikers.
What I dont like about the debuffed selfheals, is that during a dungeonrun in a group setting, the clerics need to use more potions than everyone else, as they don't get the same kind of healing, while still chance the same amount of dmg to self as for instance the strikers.
Yeah there is one of the major problems right there... The cleric went from supposedly not having to use any potions and therefore having more gold than other classes (which is insignificant as far as I can tell so far) to having to use MORE potions than any other class. The class with the least amount of dps now has to use the most potions to stay alive, because they're supposed to be able to heal themselves effectively and can't.
Not true. It has nothing to do with PvP. They stated it had to do with clerics never having to using potions thus building up more gold than other classes.
If that's true that's kind of a silly design philosophy, when I roll a healer I basically expect to not need potions. Why would you make a healing class that can't out heal potions, sort of defeats the entire reason to roll a healer. Means you have all the weakness w/o one of the major strengths people expect from a healer.
That is basically what I said the minute they introduced the heal debuff. Clerics now get healed for the least amount when in a group, how does this make any sense? As a min/maxer it makes me want to run with 2 clerics so everyone gets healed the same amount! (j/k but you get what I'm saying....)
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l1zardo1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
They should have done something about the return heals when targeting another PC
I see where they would think its an issue, where every heal on the tank and dps also tops you up, and if you don't take much damage to start with ....
They easily could have made the mechanic:
When you cast heal on another person, the caster is also healed for 50% of the spell's effect.
Do not nerf self targeted heals.
There, now you haven't borked the class' key feature, and also balanced it within a party / pvp. You also have made it sound like you gain a benefit from casting a target heal, instead of some imaginary screwjob debuff.
They should have done something about the return heals when targeting another PC
I see where they would think its an issue, where every heal on the tank and dps also tops you up, and if you don't take much damage to start with ....
They easily could have made the mechanic:
When you cast heal on another person, the caster is also healed for 50% of the spell's effect.
Do not nerf self targeted heals.
There, now you haven't borked the class' key feature, and also balanced it within a party / pvp. You also have made it sound like you gain a benefit from casting a target heal, instead of some imaginary screwjob debuff.
Quite honestly, a "self heal debuff" would work perfectly fine for what they want it to do, if they made the debuff reduced by x% per number of group members, so when you had a full group, you'd get (gasp!) healed for the same amount as all the other group members.
I get that they don't want you to be able to run around solo and never use pots, but this is a half-hearted fix, at best.
Let me preface this by saying that I love playing healer classes. I never thought I would, always been a sorcerer girl really, but DDO's Favoured Soul and Tera's Priest classes converted me 100%.
I played cleric for the last two betas. I am used to old fashioned click to target healing in DDO and great DPS power of FvS class in DDO (while lower levels were painful, at cap FvS is a solo-ing machine depending on how you build). I am also used to healing that requires targeting and/or placing AOEs at a set distance from me or using cleanse within a radius of me etc (very skill based mobile action-y healing) from Tera together with very weak slow DPS from Tera (pretty much you level solo but no point in you trying to DPS anything at level in dungeons, you're there to buff and heal).
I do NOT mind weaker DPS in a healing class.
But what I DO mind is the huge difference between the last two weekends. It makes me not want to play cleric. She was not as powerful as a wizard or a melee DPS class and she was suddenly potting like mad. She could keep my companion wizard alive like crazy with the healing DOT but herself? Hells no. I went through all my pots while the weekend before it was just reserved for when I made a mistake and pulled more than I could handle. Before I could use a combination of positioning and different heals (healing word, the burst, casting the leech curse on enemies) to bring myself back up. This weekend it was simply impossible without downing pots. Using healing word on myself was almost a waste of time I couldn't even get myself back up to max between fights while a 1000 potion could.
It's ridiculous. I spent most of the time between level 1 and 25 solo. ALONE. In dungeons last weekend I had no issues, this weekend I simply did not want to go into dungeons. And that was before I read other people's experiences. If I run through potions like mad simply on solo mobs (albeit a level above me usually), what would dungeons be like?
Using the TAB key and trying to use the right button mouse to heal myself was also an exercise in wasted resources. I'd have to have another cleric healing me (though wonder if their heals on me would be just as bad).
I do not care if I take longer to kill stuff. If I want to kill harder, I should pick the harder daily abilities and paragon tree and still probably kill slower than all others. That is fine. A healer might have to take longer to kill, that is okay because they can LAST in the battle longer before resource consumption makes it inadvisable. I am in some ways quite tanky on my healing classes in other games from being smart with my resources and having very powerful self-heals. In Tera my strongest two heals are my own heal AND an AOE heal cast right in front of me (very high risk being that close to boss in that game, high risk high reward).
If a cleric cannot keep themselves alive and use resources just as everyone else while having worse killing ability... they will be frustrating to everyone else during all those levels BETWEEN dungeons.
If a cleric cannot keep themselves alive while in a dungeon, the party is doomed. Critters should not have to be perma-CC-ed for completion... and aggro is less of a problem when a healer can keep themselves alive as they kite back or wait for tank to retake. NOBODY benefits from a healer running around in circles like a maniac keeping critters at bay cause their self-heal cannot do anything.
I simply do not see the point of the class right now as it is.
It does not give me smoother but slower solo-ing ability while leveling (which a healer class SHOULD considering your game does not force and should not force perma-parties for everything).
It does not give the ability to keep your party alive by being alive yourself and protecting them from danger.
I have often turned the tide from a huge mistake in a dungeon by simply staying alive and bringing my tank and my DPS back to life.
Cleric SHOULD be the last one standing if all else fails cause if your cleric is dead... you're toast.
A dead healer is a bad healer, but a game that does not give you the tools to stay alive is simply a bad game.
They should have done something about the return heals when targeting another PC
I see where they would think its an issue, where every heal on the tank and dps also tops you up, and if you don't take much damage to start with ....
They easily could have made the mechanic:
When you cast heal on another person, the caster is also healed for 50% of the spell's effect.
Do not nerf self targeted heals.
There, now you haven't borked the class' key feature, and also balanced it within a party / pvp. You also have made it sound like you gain a benefit from casting a target heal, instead of some imaginary screwjob debuff.
Bravo! That targeted/self heal mechanic idea is simply brilliant! I honestly hope Cryptic see this and think the same as I did when I read it! Kudo's to you l1zardo1, instead of a 'i hate the self heal debuff' whinge I have read so much lately, you have, in one simply stated sentence, provided a great solution to the 'Righteousness' mechanic.
Thanks mate!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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l1zardo1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Thanks
I really feel that when the devs said 'they don't use enough potions' it was due to that past situation of not much aggro and always getting heals, even when tossing them on the tank etc. There really was no need for potions.
The comment about having more gold, just ended up trolling the community lol, and moved the focus away from where it should have been. Dev's aren't PR folk, and there isn't much of an undo button
I think it is fairly 'touch and go' as a solo cleric. Certainly have to be aware and strategic, which I would hope a game requires for you to live
Sure things need tweaking, and fixes that don't break already balanced parts of the game ... but that is the job of a Dev
Comments
Would I like a little more power to my self heals? I sure would, I feel they are a bit weak at the moment. But not enough for me to pick another class.
Can't wait for the 27th
I just wanted to drop my 2 cents in here, the cleric is an essential part of any dungeon group makeup, the difference of having a cleric in group and not in group when trying to get through a dungeon was night and day for us!
It was the soul differences of a smooth run compared to that of one comprised of many horrible deaths.
This becomes even more evident at higher levels. I will always be looking for one if I'm going to do any sort of dungeon delving. Just saying
Ravenloft
Look for@Apocrs1980 or visit the main page here or Ravenloft here
I didn't see it that way at all. I saw them as being just as fun to play as any class, but definitely not more necessary than any other class. I completed both my beta weekend dungeon delves without a cleric in the party. Pretty sure this is by design, that delves are definitely completeable without a 100% dedicated healing class, which is probably why clerics get so many other spells.
There's no substitute for Hallowed Ground on a boss fight.
No reason in this class other than to save money for potion spamers in PVE dungeons, CW is the only viable pvp ranged spec now
PVE balance means nothing, pve is so easy and faceroll in every MMO that any class can do the content aslong as the group works together, in pvp players are smarter than NPC's and dont just mindlessly run at your tank, i thought cleric was going to be my class but after a last minute kneejerk reaction 50% nerf its just not worth it anymore
this class needs something like 50% less damage whill in divine mode, because this class has zero defenses now and when everyone gangbangs the healer and the healer cant heal himself......what do you think happens?
Maybe this thread just shows the line between good players and bad players. The Cleric felt strong to me, but not too strong. My heals, despite the dreaded self-heal nerf everyone is whining about, felt meaningful and combined with self awareness and dodging I had absolutely no problems with any of the fights.
The only complaint I had throughout the entire weekend was how difficult it was to soft-target melee party members, with the targeted HoT, when there are multiple melee party members present. Healing everyone else was very easy.
You also have the ability to clear mobs away from your friends in trouble, so many options available to a cleric. I love the class! Such an active, and proactive class to play. Dont write them off guys and gals, the mechanics of the class are really solid, and just new to alot of people. As for 'Righteousness', I do think 50% is still a bit harsh, I would like to see it at around 30% but I do believe in some diminished self heal penalty. That of itself shows to me that our heals actually work! Its just a matter of finding your 'sweet spot' to playing this class, its not easy, but it is rewarding!
1. I was talking about glitched BWE3. It was horrid then.
2. The person still complaining above you was talking about pvp which it sounds like you did none of.
I am not a pvp person much, but I gotta agree that I can see the issues in pvp... But I always hate pvp centric balance fixes. They always mess with my pve!!!
That's a convenient lie that they told the community because they obviously didn't want to admit it was because of PvP. Not to mention the fact that it's completely irrelevant with the current drop rate of pots anyway.
They can't. The Cryptic engine doesn't support such a feature.
This is why the Wizard's stuns are so short - while a mob doesn't mind being paralyzed for 5 seconds, players do.
EDIT: Apparently they can now (something that is not offered in CO or STO). At least based on this post here:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?82881-Changes-coming-to-the-Control-Wizard!
Admittedly I only allowed myself time to do one pvp match as I was trying to get to lvl 20 to see the next At-Will for Clerics (which I love) and the 9 second CD stupid-awesome aoe (which I love love love), as well as trying out the Wizard and Guardian (which felt horrible after 20-ish levels of Cleric play).
But regardless, in that one pvp match I was the second highest score, so I guess everyone else was a horrible player....
Personally I only see the PvP in this game as being "enough to satisfy some people's PvP urges". This is definitely not intended to be a "PvP-focused game".
That is a very valid point, didn't think of that.
If that's true that's kind of a silly design philosophy, when I roll a healer I basically expect to not need potions. Why would you make a healing class that can't out heal potions, sort of defeats the entire reason to roll a healer. Means you have all the weakness w/o one of the major strengths people expect from a healer.
I see where they would think its an issue, where every heal on the tank and dps also tops you up, and if you don't take much damage to start with ....
They easily could have made the mechanic:
When you cast heal on another person, the caster is also healed for 50% of the spell's effect.
Do not nerf self targeted heals.
There, now you haven't borked the class' key feature, and also balanced it within a party / pvp. You also have made it sound like you gain a benefit from casting a target heal, instead of some imaginary screwjob debuff.
Give this man a job, Cryptic :P.
I get that they don't want you to be able to run around solo and never use pots, but this is a half-hearted fix, at best.
I found this 2 during the beta weekends cleric takes agro almost easier and faster hope they fix this and on you tube i have seen 2 different videos one before they nerfed the healing and one after and the difference is huge why i don't know
Here its nerfed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-0hW_wq4pw
Here its not nerfed http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_362516&feature=iv&src_vid=C-0hW_wq4pw&v=K1Xbf5EWu5A
Bravo! That targeted/self heal mechanic idea is simply brilliant! I honestly hope Cryptic see this and think the same as I did when I read it! Kudo's to you l1zardo1, instead of a 'i hate the self heal debuff' whinge I have read so much lately, you have, in one simply stated sentence, provided a great solution to the 'Righteousness' mechanic.
Thanks mate!
I really feel that when the devs said 'they don't use enough potions' it was due to that past situation of not much aggro and always getting heals, even when tossing them on the tank etc. There really was no need for potions.
The comment about having more gold, just ended up trolling the community lol, and moved the focus away from where it should have been. Dev's aren't PR folk, and there isn't much of an undo button
I think it is fairly 'touch and go' as a solo cleric. Certainly have to be aware and strategic, which I would hope a game requires for you to live
Sure things need tweaking, and fixes that don't break already balanced parts of the game ... but that is the job of a Dev