Even the smallest slight can send gamers into a tizzy. Years of dwelling on gaming forums has taught me this. I include myself in the indictment!
Really to me, there's nothing to howl about. Everyone got what they paid for, then got a bonus added later. The initial contract was not only fulfilled, it was augmented.
But alas, watch how even months from now, purchasers of the 200 dollar (or even the 60 dollar pack) will complain as the market for some items fluctuate. There's no guarantees in the kind of purchase a Foundry pack is. As long as you got what was promised, you as a consumer, can't complain. Well I guess you can complain, but you don't have much credence in the complaint.
Consider a car dealership. You buy an automobile at 500 less than average retail price and feel great with the buy, indeed your friends and neighbors tell you, you got a great deal. Two weeks later, that same car has a special offer to clear inventory and now has a sticker price 700 less than what you paid for yours.
This kind of thing happens all the time. When you consider that, it makes the announcement we're all getting MORE and not less with purchases we made weeks ago, seem pretty cool and not at all worthy of complaint.
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Susie and Johnny want to buy some apples from me.
I sell Susie 20 apples for 10 dollars.
I sell Johnny 75 Apples for 33 Dollars. Little bit of a bulk discount, w/e.
Well I had a great harvest and I don't feel I was treating them fair.
I give Susie 40 apples more for free.
Well Johnny paid roughly 3x as much so I decide to give him roughly three times as many bonus apples as I gave to Susie; 125 bonus apples for free.
That's fair isn't it?
Johnny didn't get a percent increase based on how much he originally bought, he got a proportional bonus based on how much he spent.
In the end Susie got 3x as many Apples as she started with but Johnny only got 2.6x more apples.
Johnny didn't get a percent increase based on how much he originally bought, he got a proportional bonus based on how much he spent.
In the end Susie got 3x as many Apples as she started with but Johnny only got 2.6x more apples.
Does this explain things a bit clearer?
Yes, I now understand the point you are trying to make. However, the example you used is fundamentally different from the situation we face with the founder's packs. Let me explain.
Susie and Johnny want to buy some apples from me.
I sell Susie 20 apples for 10 dollars.
I sell Johnny 75 Apples for 33 Dollars. Little bit of a bulk discount, w/e.
Well I had a great harvest and I don't feel I was treating them fair.
I give Susie 40 apples more for free.
Well Johnny paid roughly 3x as much so I decide to give him roughly three times as many bonus apples as I gave to Susie; 125 bonus apples for free.
That's fair isn't it?
Indeed, this is one equitable way to distribute a surplus.
But neither PW nor Cryptic have a surplus of Astral Diamonds. What they have, is the ability to create Astral Diamonds at will, much like the Federal Reserve can print money.
This is an important difference, because printing money (creating Astral Diamonds) affects the whole economy. The concept is simple. If you increase the amount of currency in the system by 50% (thereby making it worth less), but then increase the wealth of some people by 40% and some people by 60%, you're effectively redistributing wealth in the system.
That is exactly what is happening in Neverwinter's AD economy, because the central bank (Cryptic/PW) essentially printed a whole lot of money by creating more AD (devaluing their currency), but didn't distribute it proportionally, resulting in Guardians becoming relatively wealthier, and Heroes of the North relatively poorer.
You simply cannot isolate these changes to a per-account basis, because Cryptic/PW have made a systemic change. ALL Founders and the WHOLE economy are affected by this change, and therefore, the effects must logically be considered on a relative basis.
To me anyone who feels ripped off doesn't understand anything about how selling things works in the real world. Sorry if that sounds harsh but feeling ripped off when the amount of something you get is increased is akin to feeling ripped off when a company puts something on sale for 20% off a month after you bought it and them giving you 20% back on your purchase price, while giving someone who purchased something cheaper 25% off their purchase price(because their item went on sale 25% off.) Does every company that sells things have an obligation to refund previous purchases when items are put on sale changing their relative value? No of course not.
They're under no obligation to give you anything more than you paid for, in this case a pack when contains 750,000 Astral Diamonds, and they're under no obligation to not change the amount of stuff something you didn't buy contains. The fact that they are giving you more than they promised you isn't ripping you off, its actually a nice thing to do. Just because they were nicer to someone who purchased something besides what you purchased doesn't mean they aren't giving you something more than they promised you in the first place. Now if they took something away, that's a different story, but they didn't.
As for the argument that they're giving away currency and that makes this somehow different, that idea has a bit of merit, but it loses much of its force when you consider that the ADs from founder's will in all likelihood make up a very small fraction of all the AD in the game, making their effect on the overall value of the currency negligible.
sendrien is actually correct - they have increased the wealth of one group more than the other group (in relative terms). No arguments about it.
Now what all the AD-poor people should start to worry about is what does this increase mean for AD prices overall - does the granted increase to paying customers mean the AD pricing going to stay the same (while keeping the AD accumulation rate as low as it was for BW2 each praying session)? Because this would mean a horrible grind incoming.
THIS IS CLERIC AGGRO IN BW3
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sendrienMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
As for the argument that they're giving away currency and that makes this somehow different, that idea has a bit of merit, but it loses much of its force when you consider that the ADs from founder's will in all likelihood make up a very small fraction of all the AD in the game, making their effect on the overall value of the currency negligible.
Actually, wouldn't the ADs from Founders represent 100% of all the AD on launch day (T-0)? And since all Founders can theoretically cash in their ADs immediately on launch day, then it becomes very clear that Heroes of the North have had their share of Launch Day wealth in ADs reduced by this change.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2013
Well that goes way into an economic debate which I have avoided with a passion until the game is at least released.
In theory what you're saying makes sense but that is based on completely different factors going into a whole slew of equations I really don't want to have to cite and...ugh...blegh.
In any case, the example I used was a surplus but it doesn't have to be a surplus. This type of situation could be a surplus (and often is) or a post purchase compensation for a shortage based on a value.
You certainly can bring in a whole confusing mess of a discussion about how it will effect the NW economy like post WWI Germany but it doesn't necessarily have to be so catastrophic. But even that could be argued based on the exact same logic I have been presenting. Certainly it could negatively effect the value of Astral Diamonds but at the end of the day this could be read as...
400K AD is what they feel they shorted purchasers based on a $60 purchase...
And 1,250K AD is just above 3x that amount for just above 3x a $60 purchase...
Regardless of whether Heroes get hurt by that, logically that still adds up.
Actually, wouldn't the ADs from Founders represent 100% of all the AD on launch day (T-0)? And since all Founders can theoretically cash in their ADs immediately on launch day, then it becomes very clear that Heroes of the North have had their share of Launch Day wealth in ADs reduced by this change.
Well lets assume that launch day actually means launch day+5(since Heroes get a 5 day head start, and Guardians a 3.) What percentage of launch day players do you think are going to be founders? .01%? More? That'd be 1 out of every 10,000 players, which I think is reasonable considering how many more beta keys are available for beta weekend 3(one site alone has 50,000) than the number of players I saw in beta weekend 1. Even if its only 1:1,000 that would mean that each non-founder would have to earn 2,000 Astral Diamonds on day 1 to equal the amount of currency created from founders(assuming all founders are heroes, which they aren't, but discounting the fact that some founders bought both hero and guardian packs.) 2,000 Astral Diamonds, even with the low amount you get from praying in one day is not much(especially since you get thousands alone from doing group content during the right time of day.)
So lets take it after a week in the game, if every player per founder earns 2k a day(again not a huge amount comparatively to how much you can earn in a day easily with just playing content at the right time and praying), then in 7 days the ratio of founder astral diamonds to total astral diamonds is 14%. If that continues for 2 weeks its 7%, etc. etc. You get the idea.
So while yes it is true, that the heroes share of launch day wealth is lessened by this change, the overall effect on the economy comparatively is small in the long run anyway.
We should be more troubled by the fact that the amount of Astral Diamonds Heroes get is now equal to the amount that non-heroes can refine in 62 days. Although the influx of astral diamonds on day one will allow for a more flowing economy through the auction house which will allow founders to equip faster but more people to have astral diamonds faster as well.
We should be more troubled by the fact that the amount of Astral Diamonds Heroes get is now equal to the amount that non-heroes can refine in 62 days.
That's a scary thought. Truly.
All in all there really isn't much harm to Heroes of the North. Shaudius has already voiced any economical supply versus demand debates pretty well to begin with and brought up a scary point I hadn't ever considered.
But honestly either way Heroes have the edge. Let's remember the issue Post WWI Germany had was they printed money as if it appeared out of thin air. The more currency put into the game the lower it's value will be so while some of you may feel Heroes are being gipped 1.2M AD logically speaking all that will do is lower the value of AD that much more.
If you feel it's unfair because they now got more bonus AD proportionally and therefore have an edge in the early sales prices let me beat you over the head. 2M > 600K. Sell it all in the first few days when the demand is extremely high. Buy it back in a month when the demand is far lower.
No matter how it's sliced The Hero of the North pack still comes out on top. If this change wasn't a reactive change it wouldn't be complained about to begin with.
I purchased a Hero of the North Package. I wouldn't complain if I got another chunk of AD...
But I am by no means hurting from this change. I am in no way cheated by this change. Why are so many of you who didn't even purchase the packs so upset about something which doesn't even effect you?
sendrienMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
ambisinisterr -
I'm upset because it does affect me, and does hurt me. Just because I choose not to flaunt my Hero of the North status, does not mean that I don't belong to the group. (Proof on left.)
If you choose to ignore macroeconomic realities in favour of the simple assertion that 2M > 600K, that is your every right and prerogative. If you feel satisfied with the changes made by Cryptic/PW, that is also your every right and prerogative.
But please, and especially because you are a respected moderator of this forum, do not insist on misinforming readers that "No matter how it's sliced The Hero of the North pack still comes out on top." Because it doesn't come out on top, except in the single isolated scenario with which you choose to consider this revision.
It comes out on top if you consider the revision in absolute terms and in strict isolation to the rest of the economy.
One factor worth mentioning is that in order to obtain the maximum number of Astral Diamonds an account may have at launch, one must purchase a Hero of the North Founder's Pack (and the Guardian of Neverwinter Pack, too). This innately adds incalculable value to the pack because a Guardian of Neverwinter, while now having more Astral Diamonds relative to a Hero of the North, will still not be able to match the Hero of the North's raw purchasing power. It would be different if you could stack multiple packs, but you cannot. The 2,000,000 AD, or 2,600,000 for players with both packs, allows more potential market manipulation and outright market bullying. Given that the bulk of players start the game with no AD, having that advantage is worth the $200 USD price even though the Guardian of Neverwinter pack got a larger relative boost.
Suppose a fantastic item goes up for auction shortly after launch and you absolutely must have it, but others lust after it, too. You only bought a Guardian of Neverwinter Pack, so the most you can afford is 600,000 AD, plus whatever you scrounged from invoking and other minor sources. You are immediately at the mercy of anyone who wants to flex their 2,600,000 AD; how much does your larger relative increase matter now? You made out better relatively, perhaps, but you still will lose absolutely.
Furthermore, the best returns on selling AD for ZEN are likely to be near launch. To exploit this the fullest, you need as much AD as possible. This is a case where the relative differences break down in how much they mean, because it is all about who can trade the most at the beginning and profit from the best exchange rates. If I can trade my 2,600,000 AD for 20,000 ZEN at release, but 100 days later when AD is abundant it would only fetch 10,000 ZEN, then the extra 2,000,000 AD I have over the Guardian of Neverwinter player was worth twice as much at launch. That makes them, in some manner of speaking, more like 4,000,000 AD, in terms of the ZEN exchange. How do you value that?
Also, everyone is looking at this in the context of the ZEN and trade economy and neglecting the aspect of actually using those Astral Diamonds to buy things from vendors, thus taking them out of the economy forever. For all of the economists here, that is an important factor to skip. Astral Diamonds do not simulate actual currency well because they can and will permanently leave the system. Real currency will move from one entity to the next, not simply vanish forever. Relative purchasing power matters less when that purchase takes currency out of circulation permanently.
Finally, the amount of complaints over a subject like this is staggering. Let's suppose the packs had launched this way. Would any present Heroes of the North instead buy a Guardian of Neverwinter Pack? I doubt it. This was likely not a purchase factor for many. Therefore, to raise a cry about it now seems pointless.
In short, I have both packs, and I am not miffed in the slightest. It is not going to change much in the long run, and for all of the fuss being made the result will be, when these threads die, no one will care.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Suppose a fantastic item goes up for auction shortly after launch and you absolutely must have it, but others lust after it, too. You only bought a Guardian of Neverwinter Pack, so the most you can afford is 600,000 AD, plus whatever you scrounged from invoking and other minor sources. You are immediately at the mercy of anyone who wants to flex their 2,600,000 AD; how much does your larger relative increase matter now? You made out better relatively, perhaps, but you still will lose absolutely.
Thank you for wording that much better than I ever could arythor.
You have the right to an opinion sendrien but it is one I absolutely disagree with. That's not misinforming. It's stating my own opinion.
I absolutely do not consider it to be a requirement to scale the increase based on a percentage of the original value. There are a dozen different ways those values could be calculated of which I have merely mentioned a few that results in those values being fair and just to both parties.
You're free to ask for the consumer expected increase but I don't see any major loss personally. Using your own economic standpoints giving such amounts to Heroes of the North it could easily just crash the market. I mean they are already adding in 400-1M AD per purchase. Let's say they have merely 10K purchases in total (split down the middle Guardian/Hero) they are adding in 8.25 BIllion AD into the system. If they did the proposed Hero increase that number would increase to ~14.5 Billion.
That's a lot of AD to throw into the system...
I believe it was ironzerger who mentioned the other obvious truth that perhaps they felt the Guardian Pack was undervalued and thus didn't decrease the value of the Hero pack but rather increased the value of the Guardian Pack. Everything posted throughout this thread is subjective and purely opinion based.
I wouldn't complain if I got more, but I don't see a reason to ask for it no matter which angle you look at the change. That is my most honest opinion.
no matter how you turn it, originally the value was 750k AD when i bought hotn, now its 2 mill.
I dont care about the ammount it increased and if its fair compared to guardian or not, all i see is that we got even more for the same ammount of money
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sendrienMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
I think it's important to separate what has been said into two categories.
First: Have both packs gained AD? The answer is yes, and that is a fact. Has the HotN pack gained roughly 3x the AD of the Guardian pack? The answer is yes, and that is a fact. Did the HotN pack receive a proportionately lower increase in AD than the Guardian pack? The answer is yes, and that is a fact. Was the AD portion of the HotN pack devalued in comparison to the AD portion of the Guardian pack by this change? The answer is yes, and that is a fact. These are all facts that were brought out in this discussion, and I don't see any reason in trying to deny any of these, unless you have evidence or proof that these facts are false.
Second: the questions of whether this devaluation is fair, justified or even significant, warrants discussing, warrants asking for more, these are all opinions. Some people fall on one side of the fence, and some fall on the other. No problem here.
I respect your opinion that the revision was acceptable and fair. I hope you respect my opinion that the revision was not fair.
But if we try to deny what is fact as merely opinion, or try to make what is opinion into fact...well, that is misinformation. I'm sure everyone will find common ground on the facts mentioned above, but will (and should) disagree wildly on any opinions and conclusions drawn based on said facts.
I would exercise caution to all those that are saying they have "more" as a result of this change. You are assuming that the value of AD is the same as before. From an economics-perspective, what appears to have happened is inflation and that we received more AD but each AD is worth less than before.
In a previous thread, I calculated one zen ($0.01) equaled 220 AD. If the value of AD relative to zen remains unchanged, the HoTN value increased by $56.80 from $34.10 to $90.90. For the guardian pack, the value increased by $20.45 from $6.81 to $27.27.
However, those numbers go out the window if the value of AD related to zen decreased.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2013
The only thing I disagree on is stating that the Hero of the North Package is devalued by these changes.
arythor wrote it far better than I ever could. Everything he said I agree with wholeheartedly which is why I stand firmly with my opinion that any negative impact to the pack is subjective. I don't feel it was hurt in any way really.
Proportionately it didn't gain as much but overall the pack has far more power in relative terms. It might not have been increased proportionately but it gained A LOT and it's not cut and dry to state that it's absolutely devalued by not being proportionately increased.
I do respect your opinion but I respectfully disagree that the pack has lost value.
I sort of alluded to this in my first post but I could easily say that if it gained proportionately it would be far easier to argue that it gained too much compared to the Guardian Pack than to judge this current situation.
Actually, wouldn't the ADs from Founders represent 100% of all the AD on launch day (T-0)? And since all Founders can theoretically cash in their ADs immediately on launch day, then it becomes very clear that Heroes of the North have had their share of Launch Day wealth in ADs reduced by this change.
Unless you wait until currency supply diminishes (because others are spending it). Which probably isn't a bad idea. We can't predict the market, but there will be an AWFUL lot of AD floating around in the first few days and weeks. You don't have to spend your increased AD right away!
After a lot of the AD gets spent, the prices most volatile pricing should come down.
Which means spending early isn't as much of an advantage. In fact, the pricing in the first few days as the "millionaires" hit the streets, will probably be really bad.
Your better bet MIGHT be, to actually buy Zen on day 1 (whatever day 1 is for you T-0 or T+2), and sell it for AD. You'd probably get a decent exchange. Then you sit on the AD and wait for auction prices to finally bottom out (because eventually the AD starts to dry up a little), then buy all kinds of bargains.
I'll tie this back to the original complaint now:
The value of these products is volatile. Obviously, the most obvious is that the Foundy pack is "worth" a little less, because we're on the third and allegedly last closed beta window the pack provides access to. In addition, the pricing for certain items is still being established, so none of us are EXACTLY sure what 1.25 million AD really means.
What we do know is lots of people bought the packs, which means AD will be everywhere when the game hits. Which means the game opens as a seller's market not a buyer's market. In other words, GOODS will have more value than CURRENCY for the first few weeks of the game's launch. Which means the increase in AD, doesn't have much intrinsic value at all. Which means the original complaint is moot. Since it's all relative and volatile.
Your really left with a simple assessment: Were you happy to let 200 or 60 dollars go, to support a game like this and in return receive some digital goods that make you happy and content?
Because the actual "financial" value of these things is arbitrary at best. You can apply some math to it (as some have tried) and you'll likely find the 60 dollar pack is the slightly better value, dollar for dollar. But so what? This again, happens all the time in business. Check the housing market sometime, the dollar for dollar value of housing is all over the place and it certainly isn't always the big, expensive house that exhibits that value.
I don't think too many 200 dollar purchasers are unhappy right now. That's the REAL assessment of the value, the actual consumer is not only happy, but eager to return for more business.
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My premise was based entirely on relative purchasing power.
To use an example closer to real life, if the price of essentials increases by 15%, and Adam gets a 10% raise and Becky gets a 20% raise, Adam can purchase less after the raise, whereas Becky can purchase more.
Furthermore, even though I don't own either pack, if I was a Hero of the North, I would be wondering right now why my $200 pack gained less purchasing power in-game than had I spent $60.
A real life example is, "Life isn't fair." I don't think it is a very big deal, they threw me a larger bone after the fact. I am happy with it and I am a HoTN pack owner. By your examples you are neither Becky, nor Adam. You're Dave, the guy that likes to complain about others being treated unfairly... when they generally don't even care about it.
I can't say that I agree with the OP at all on his premise, but I do fear that now the AD to Zen value will be horrible at launch for a while afterwards due to the initial surge in AD available to players who purchased the guardian and HoTN packs. I suppose we will see the additional changes they have made to the AD vendors to see if AD has become required for even more items.
Cheers!
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited March 2013
This thread is what happens when we're not able to play...the sooner this weekend BWE starts, the sooner we can put away our charkboards and slide rulers.
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ekhranMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
the increase is fair.
Previous: 150.000 vs 750.000 - Difference: 600.000
Now: 600.000 vs 2.000.000 - Difference: 1.400.000
The difference stayed almost the same (2x). I don't see any problem.
60$ * 3.33 ratio = 200$
In relations to cash and AD it's perfectly fair now: guardians pay 3.33 times less and get 3.33 less AD, it was disproportional with 5:1.
Also, AD is not the only thing in those packs, so making such assumptions only based on AD change would be wrong in my opinion.
PS Although, I don't mind if 'heroes' got more AD. More stuff is always good. I just wanted to clear things from the position of math
I'm not going to complain about the change, since I'm happy with all of the additional stuff that comes with the Hero of the North pack and I'm helping to support a game I truly enjoy. I think it's perfectly fair.
Each pack is getting 10,000 Astral Diamonds for each dollar spent. It should have been a flat rate, like this, from the start. It's fair, unless you feel that the rest of the pack contents simply does not add up.
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I was happy paying for the pack with the old value and I am happy to have gotten more than I expected. *shrugs and smiles*
Of course I wouldn't complain if we got the full 300%...but I'm not going to be asking for it personally.
I agree I am currently happier than before. An increase is better than none! Yays!
Makes me wonder.. if from another perspective, would a founder be happier if Cryptic were to declare that all founders pack, HOTN and Guardian Packs will be given lesser AD now.. if this did happen, would a founder, as a result, be happier because his/her AD is so-called worth more now given that the supply of AD out there is 'lesser' ? Just a thought...
jezathforumMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
I think its freakin awesome that hey listened to your concerns in the first place! Great job! People will always search for something to complain about... I dont mind complaining if its constructive and likley to improve the game, but this post is just a blatant attempt to undermine the game in my view....
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kimberixMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
if it helps, I haven't bought either pack and will be using the Free-to-play model.
As a consequence, I start with 0 Astral Diamonds and so I gave myself a 100000% increase (which is much better than both founder packs) and will be waiting with baited breath for the shops to open..
There's only two items that bother me in this package.
The bag of holding being so tiny compared to even the starter pack.
And the fireworks thing. I could do without the fireworks and get something more imo useful like maybe a backpack or cloak or something cosmetic (backpack prefered as so few games in fantasy settings have backpacks as cosmetic items.)
There's only two items that bother me in this package.
The bag of holding being so tiny compared to even the starter pack.
To be honest that has been nagging at me too, I always loved bigger bags and felt that if they gave us a 'Big bag of holding' rather than a small one, I would truly be a happier founder.. hehe but just a wish !
I just say thank you as it was an upgrade I didn't expect, I bought both hero and guardian packs very early on, although it would be nice if the bag of holding was upgraded for the hero pack as I now see the starter pack ones is per character and not just for one bacg as it think it originally was.
Comments
It does indeed.
It won't stop others from complaining though.
Even the smallest slight can send gamers into a tizzy. Years of dwelling on gaming forums has taught me this. I include myself in the indictment!
Really to me, there's nothing to howl about. Everyone got what they paid for, then got a bonus added later. The initial contract was not only fulfilled, it was augmented.
But alas, watch how even months from now, purchasers of the 200 dollar (or even the 60 dollar pack) will complain as the market for some items fluctuate. There's no guarantees in the kind of purchase a Foundry pack is. As long as you got what was promised, you as a consumer, can't complain. Well I guess you can complain, but you don't have much credence in the complaint.
Consider a car dealership. You buy an automobile at 500 less than average retail price and feel great with the buy, indeed your friends and neighbors tell you, you got a great deal. Two weeks later, that same car has a special offer to clear inventory and now has a sticker price 700 less than what you paid for yours.
This kind of thing happens all the time. When you consider that, it makes the announcement we're all getting MORE and not less with purchases we made weeks ago, seem pretty cool and not at all worthy of complaint.
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how much would that be in relative apple sauce?
Neverwinter Wiki
Yes, I now understand the point you are trying to make. However, the example you used is fundamentally different from the situation we face with the founder's packs. Let me explain.
Indeed, this is one equitable way to distribute a surplus.
But neither PW nor Cryptic have a surplus of Astral Diamonds. What they have, is the ability to create Astral Diamonds at will, much like the Federal Reserve can print money.
This is an important difference, because printing money (creating Astral Diamonds) affects the whole economy. The concept is simple. If you increase the amount of currency in the system by 50% (thereby making it worth less), but then increase the wealth of some people by 40% and some people by 60%, you're effectively redistributing wealth in the system.
That is exactly what is happening in Neverwinter's AD economy, because the central bank (Cryptic/PW) essentially printed a whole lot of money by creating more AD (devaluing their currency), but didn't distribute it proportionally, resulting in Guardians becoming relatively wealthier, and Heroes of the North relatively poorer.
You simply cannot isolate these changes to a per-account basis, because Cryptic/PW have made a systemic change. ALL Founders and the WHOLE economy are affected by this change, and therefore, the effects must logically be considered on a relative basis.
They're under no obligation to give you anything more than you paid for, in this case a pack when contains 750,000 Astral Diamonds, and they're under no obligation to not change the amount of stuff something you didn't buy contains. The fact that they are giving you more than they promised you isn't ripping you off, its actually a nice thing to do. Just because they were nicer to someone who purchased something besides what you purchased doesn't mean they aren't giving you something more than they promised you in the first place. Now if they took something away, that's a different story, but they didn't.
As for the argument that they're giving away currency and that makes this somehow different, that idea has a bit of merit, but it loses much of its force when you consider that the ADs from founder's will in all likelihood make up a very small fraction of all the AD in the game, making their effect on the overall value of the currency negligible.
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Now what all the AD-poor people should start to worry about is what does this increase mean for AD prices overall - does the granted increase to paying customers mean the AD pricing going to stay the same (while keeping the AD accumulation rate as low as it was for BW2 each praying session)? Because this would mean a horrible grind incoming.
Actually, wouldn't the ADs from Founders represent 100% of all the AD on launch day (T-0)? And since all Founders can theoretically cash in their ADs immediately on launch day, then it becomes very clear that Heroes of the North have had their share of Launch Day wealth in ADs reduced by this change.
In theory what you're saying makes sense but that is based on completely different factors going into a whole slew of equations I really don't want to have to cite and...ugh...blegh.
In any case, the example I used was a surplus but it doesn't have to be a surplus. This type of situation could be a surplus (and often is) or a post purchase compensation for a shortage based on a value.
You certainly can bring in a whole confusing mess of a discussion about how it will effect the NW economy like post WWI Germany but it doesn't necessarily have to be so catastrophic. But even that could be argued based on the exact same logic I have been presenting. Certainly it could negatively effect the value of Astral Diamonds but at the end of the day this could be read as...
400K AD is what they feel they shorted purchasers based on a $60 purchase...
And 1,250K AD is just above 3x that amount for just above 3x a $60 purchase...
Regardless of whether Heroes get hurt by that, logically that still adds up.
I think the whole point the OP, myself and others are making is that Heroes do get hurt by this change.
Well lets assume that launch day actually means launch day+5(since Heroes get a 5 day head start, and Guardians a 3.) What percentage of launch day players do you think are going to be founders? .01%? More? That'd be 1 out of every 10,000 players, which I think is reasonable considering how many more beta keys are available for beta weekend 3(one site alone has 50,000) than the number of players I saw in beta weekend 1. Even if its only 1:1,000 that would mean that each non-founder would have to earn 2,000 Astral Diamonds on day 1 to equal the amount of currency created from founders(assuming all founders are heroes, which they aren't, but discounting the fact that some founders bought both hero and guardian packs.) 2,000 Astral Diamonds, even with the low amount you get from praying in one day is not much(especially since you get thousands alone from doing group content during the right time of day.)
So lets take it after a week in the game, if every player per founder earns 2k a day(again not a huge amount comparatively to how much you can earn in a day easily with just playing content at the right time and praying), then in 7 days the ratio of founder astral diamonds to total astral diamonds is 14%. If that continues for 2 weeks its 7%, etc. etc. You get the idea.
So while yes it is true, that the heroes share of launch day wealth is lessened by this change, the overall effect on the economy comparatively is small in the long run anyway.
We should be more troubled by the fact that the amount of Astral Diamonds Heroes get is now equal to the amount that non-heroes can refine in 62 days. Although the influx of astral diamonds on day one will allow for a more flowing economy through the auction house which will allow founders to equip faster but more people to have astral diamonds faster as well.
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That's a scary thought. Truly.
All in all there really isn't much harm to Heroes of the North. Shaudius has already voiced any economical supply versus demand debates pretty well to begin with and brought up a scary point I hadn't ever considered.
But honestly either way Heroes have the edge. Let's remember the issue Post WWI Germany had was they printed money as if it appeared out of thin air. The more currency put into the game the lower it's value will be so while some of you may feel Heroes are being gipped 1.2M AD logically speaking all that will do is lower the value of AD that much more.
If you feel it's unfair because they now got more bonus AD proportionally and therefore have an edge in the early sales prices let me beat you over the head. 2M > 600K. Sell it all in the first few days when the demand is extremely high. Buy it back in a month when the demand is far lower.
No matter how it's sliced The Hero of the North pack still comes out on top. If this change wasn't a reactive change it wouldn't be complained about to begin with.
I purchased a Hero of the North Package. I wouldn't complain if I got another chunk of AD...
But I am by no means hurting from this change. I am in no way cheated by this change. Why are so many of you who didn't even purchase the packs so upset about something which doesn't even effect you?
I'm upset because it does affect me, and does hurt me. Just because I choose not to flaunt my Hero of the North status, does not mean that I don't belong to the group. (Proof on left.)
If you choose to ignore macroeconomic realities in favour of the simple assertion that 2M > 600K, that is your every right and prerogative. If you feel satisfied with the changes made by Cryptic/PW, that is also your every right and prerogative.
But please, and especially because you are a respected moderator of this forum, do not insist on misinforming readers that "No matter how it's sliced The Hero of the North pack still comes out on top." Because it doesn't come out on top, except in the single isolated scenario with which you choose to consider this revision.
It comes out on top if you consider the revision in absolute terms and in strict isolation to the rest of the economy.
Suppose a fantastic item goes up for auction shortly after launch and you absolutely must have it, but others lust after it, too. You only bought a Guardian of Neverwinter Pack, so the most you can afford is 600,000 AD, plus whatever you scrounged from invoking and other minor sources. You are immediately at the mercy of anyone who wants to flex their 2,600,000 AD; how much does your larger relative increase matter now? You made out better relatively, perhaps, but you still will lose absolutely.
Furthermore, the best returns on selling AD for ZEN are likely to be near launch. To exploit this the fullest, you need as much AD as possible. This is a case where the relative differences break down in how much they mean, because it is all about who can trade the most at the beginning and profit from the best exchange rates. If I can trade my 2,600,000 AD for 20,000 ZEN at release, but 100 days later when AD is abundant it would only fetch 10,000 ZEN, then the extra 2,000,000 AD I have over the Guardian of Neverwinter player was worth twice as much at launch. That makes them, in some manner of speaking, more like 4,000,000 AD, in terms of the ZEN exchange. How do you value that?
Also, everyone is looking at this in the context of the ZEN and trade economy and neglecting the aspect of actually using those Astral Diamonds to buy things from vendors, thus taking them out of the economy forever. For all of the economists here, that is an important factor to skip. Astral Diamonds do not simulate actual currency well because they can and will permanently leave the system. Real currency will move from one entity to the next, not simply vanish forever. Relative purchasing power matters less when that purchase takes currency out of circulation permanently.
Finally, the amount of complaints over a subject like this is staggering. Let's suppose the packs had launched this way. Would any present Heroes of the North instead buy a Guardian of Neverwinter Pack? I doubt it. This was likely not a purchase factor for many. Therefore, to raise a cry about it now seems pointless.
In short, I have both packs, and I am not miffed in the slightest. It is not going to change much in the long run, and for all of the fuss being made the result will be, when these threads die, no one will care.
You have the right to an opinion sendrien but it is one I absolutely disagree with. That's not misinforming. It's stating my own opinion.
I absolutely do not consider it to be a requirement to scale the increase based on a percentage of the original value. There are a dozen different ways those values could be calculated of which I have merely mentioned a few that results in those values being fair and just to both parties.
You're free to ask for the consumer expected increase but I don't see any major loss personally. Using your own economic standpoints giving such amounts to Heroes of the North it could easily just crash the market. I mean they are already adding in 400-1M AD per purchase. Let's say they have merely 10K purchases in total (split down the middle Guardian/Hero) they are adding in 8.25 BIllion AD into the system. If they did the proposed Hero increase that number would increase to ~14.5 Billion.
That's a lot of AD to throw into the system...
I believe it was ironzerger who mentioned the other obvious truth that perhaps they felt the Guardian Pack was undervalued and thus didn't decrease the value of the Hero pack but rather increased the value of the Guardian Pack. Everything posted throughout this thread is subjective and purely opinion based.
I wouldn't complain if I got more, but I don't see a reason to ask for it no matter which angle you look at the change. That is my most honest opinion.
I dont care about the ammount it increased and if its fair compared to guardian or not, all i see is that we got even more for the same ammount of money
First: Have both packs gained AD? The answer is yes, and that is a fact. Has the HotN pack gained roughly 3x the AD of the Guardian pack? The answer is yes, and that is a fact. Did the HotN pack receive a proportionately lower increase in AD than the Guardian pack? The answer is yes, and that is a fact. Was the AD portion of the HotN pack devalued in comparison to the AD portion of the Guardian pack by this change? The answer is yes, and that is a fact. These are all facts that were brought out in this discussion, and I don't see any reason in trying to deny any of these, unless you have evidence or proof that these facts are false.
Second: the questions of whether this devaluation is fair, justified or even significant, warrants discussing, warrants asking for more, these are all opinions. Some people fall on one side of the fence, and some fall on the other. No problem here.
I respect your opinion that the revision was acceptable and fair. I hope you respect my opinion that the revision was not fair.
But if we try to deny what is fact as merely opinion, or try to make what is opinion into fact...well, that is misinformation. I'm sure everyone will find common ground on the facts mentioned above, but will (and should) disagree wildly on any opinions and conclusions drawn based on said facts.
Right, ambisinisterr?
In a previous thread, I calculated one zen ($0.01) equaled 220 AD. If the value of AD relative to zen remains unchanged, the HoTN value increased by $56.80 from $34.10 to $90.90. For the guardian pack, the value increased by $20.45 from $6.81 to $27.27.
However, those numbers go out the window if the value of AD related to zen decreased.
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arythor wrote it far better than I ever could. Everything he said I agree with wholeheartedly which is why I stand firmly with my opinion that any negative impact to the pack is subjective. I don't feel it was hurt in any way really.
Proportionately it didn't gain as much but overall the pack has far more power in relative terms. It might not have been increased proportionately but it gained A LOT and it's not cut and dry to state that it's absolutely devalued by not being proportionately increased.
I do respect your opinion but I respectfully disagree that the pack has lost value.
I sort of alluded to this in my first post but I could easily say that if it gained proportionately it would be far easier to argue that it gained too much compared to the Guardian Pack than to judge this current situation.
Unless you wait until currency supply diminishes (because others are spending it). Which probably isn't a bad idea. We can't predict the market, but there will be an AWFUL lot of AD floating around in the first few days and weeks. You don't have to spend your increased AD right away!
After a lot of the AD gets spent, the prices most volatile pricing should come down.
Which means spending early isn't as much of an advantage. In fact, the pricing in the first few days as the "millionaires" hit the streets, will probably be really bad.
Your better bet MIGHT be, to actually buy Zen on day 1 (whatever day 1 is for you T-0 or T+2), and sell it for AD. You'd probably get a decent exchange. Then you sit on the AD and wait for auction prices to finally bottom out (because eventually the AD starts to dry up a little), then buy all kinds of bargains.
I'll tie this back to the original complaint now:
The value of these products is volatile. Obviously, the most obvious is that the Foundy pack is "worth" a little less, because we're on the third and allegedly last closed beta window the pack provides access to. In addition, the pricing for certain items is still being established, so none of us are EXACTLY sure what 1.25 million AD really means.
What we do know is lots of people bought the packs, which means AD will be everywhere when the game hits. Which means the game opens as a seller's market not a buyer's market. In other words, GOODS will have more value than CURRENCY for the first few weeks of the game's launch. Which means the increase in AD, doesn't have much intrinsic value at all. Which means the original complaint is moot. Since it's all relative and volatile.
Your really left with a simple assessment: Were you happy to let 200 or 60 dollars go, to support a game like this and in return receive some digital goods that make you happy and content?
Because the actual "financial" value of these things is arbitrary at best. You can apply some math to it (as some have tried) and you'll likely find the 60 dollar pack is the slightly better value, dollar for dollar. But so what? This again, happens all the time in business. Check the housing market sometime, the dollar for dollar value of housing is all over the place and it certainly isn't always the big, expensive house that exhibits that value.
I don't think too many 200 dollar purchasers are unhappy right now. That's the REAL assessment of the value, the actual consumer is not only happy, but eager to return for more business.
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A real life example is, "Life isn't fair." I don't think it is a very big deal, they threw me a larger bone after the fact. I am happy with it and I am a HoTN pack owner. By your examples you are neither Becky, nor Adam. You're Dave, the guy that likes to complain about others being treated unfairly... when they generally don't even care about it.
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Previous: 150.000 vs 750.000 - Difference: 600.000
Now: 600.000 vs 2.000.000 - Difference: 1.400.000
The difference stayed almost the same (2x). I don't see any problem.
also this:
Each pack is getting 10,000 Astral Diamonds for each dollar spent. It should have been a flat rate, like this, from the start. It's fair, unless you feel that the rest of the pack contents simply does not add up.
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I agree I am currently happier than before. An increase is better than none! Yays!
Makes me wonder.. if from another perspective, would a founder be happier if Cryptic were to declare that all founders pack, HOTN and Guardian Packs will be given lesser AD now.. if this did happen, would a founder, as a result, be happier because his/her AD is so-called worth more now given that the supply of AD out there is 'lesser' ? Just a thought...
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As a consequence, I start with 0 Astral Diamonds and so I gave myself a 100000% increase (which is much better than both founder packs) and will be waiting with baited breath for the shops to open..
The bag of holding being so tiny compared to even the starter pack.
And the fireworks thing. I could do without the fireworks and get something more imo useful like maybe a backpack or cloak or something cosmetic (backpack prefered as so few games in fantasy settings have backpacks as cosmetic items.)
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