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Cryptic/PW Ripping Off Its Best Customers?
kelrethi
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 10 Arc User
Disclosure
I am neither a Hero of the North nor a Guardian Founder.
Facts
What's Wrong?
If you increase the amount of AD received in one package, the amount of AD received in the other package should increase by the same percentage. Otherwise, you are effectively diminishing the relative purchasing power of one of the Founder's packs, in this case, the Heroes of the North pack.
Hypotheticals
Does Not Make Business Sense
It seems to me that your Hero of the North customers are your biggest supporters. Having paid the most to support your company even before your free-to-play game is released, I would think it should be in your best interests to make them as happy as possible, so that they are more inclined to spend in your Zen Store once the game opens. (Nothing opens up wallets like customer satisfaction).
What you're doing now undermines the credibility you have built up to date, and will make current and prospective customers like myself wonder what else might be subject to a disguised downgrade. For one thing, anyone contemplating the purchase of the Hero of the North pack will now know that its relative value has diminished considerably compared to the Guardian pack.
Why not apply the same percentage increase to both packs to show that you value both sets of customers equally?
From what I have read, seen and experienced, you have done an admirable job with this game to date, but your latest decision is truly baffling, and as a prospective buyer of a Founder's pack, leaves a very sour taste in my mouth.
I sincerely hope that someone from Cryptic is willing to make an official comment on this issue.
I am neither a Hero of the North nor a Guardian Founder.
Facts
- Heroes of the North Founder's Packs have received an upgrade from 750,000 Astral Diamonds to 2,000,000 Astral Diamonds (166% Increase).
- Guardian Founder's Packs have received an upgrade from 150,000 Astral Diamonds to 600,000 Astral Diamonds. (300% Increase)
What's Wrong?
If you increase the amount of AD received in one package, the amount of AD received in the other package should increase by the same percentage. Otherwise, you are effectively diminishing the relative purchasing power of one of the Founder's packs, in this case, the Heroes of the North pack.
Hypotheticals
- If you are raising the amount of AD received to increase the purchasing power of both packs in-game, why should one pack gain more than the other?
- If your wish was to increase the value of the Guardian pack relative to the Hero of the North pack, what is the logic behind this decision? The consensus on these forums is that Guardian packs represent the "best value for money" whereas Hero of the North packs have an inexplicably high "value".
- If your wish was to decrease the value of the Hero of the North pack relative to the Guardian pack, what is the logic behind this decision? Your Hero of the North purchasers bought their Founder's packs in good faith, trusting that the value (whether absolute or relative) would be maintained at least until launch. This recent decision puts this trust and faith in serious jeopardy.
Does Not Make Business Sense
It seems to me that your Hero of the North customers are your biggest supporters. Having paid the most to support your company even before your free-to-play game is released, I would think it should be in your best interests to make them as happy as possible, so that they are more inclined to spend in your Zen Store once the game opens. (Nothing opens up wallets like customer satisfaction).
What you're doing now undermines the credibility you have built up to date, and will make current and prospective customers like myself wonder what else might be subject to a disguised downgrade. For one thing, anyone contemplating the purchase of the Hero of the North pack will now know that its relative value has diminished considerably compared to the Guardian pack.
Why not apply the same percentage increase to both packs to show that you value both sets of customers equally?
From what I have read, seen and experienced, you have done an admirable job with this game to date, but your latest decision is truly baffling, and as a prospective buyer of a Founder's pack, leaves a very sour taste in my mouth.
I sincerely hope that someone from Cryptic is willing to make an official comment on this issue.
Post edited by kelrethi on
0
Comments
Neverwinter Official Wiki - http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/
My premise was based entirely on relative purchasing power.
To use an example closer to real life, if the price of essentials increases by 15%, and Adam gets a 10% raise and Becky gets a 20% raise, Adam can purchase less after the raise, whereas Becky can purchase more.
Furthermore, even though I don't own either pack, if I was a Hero of the North, I would be wondering right now why my $200 pack gained less purchasing power in-game than had I spent $60.
Incorrect. +1,250,000 > 400,000. The Hero of the North pack recieved an increase in purchasing power of over 3 times.
And perhaps Cryptic felt that the value of the diamonds offered in the Guardian pack was undervalued compared to the diamonds offered in the Hero pack compared to the overal price:value, hence the great percentage increase.
I'm no math guru, but that would seem to be the most likely to me.
the "Value of $###" din't seem to pan out to be close enough to their estimates, so the "easy" fix to that could have been the AD.
Neverwinter Wiki
I would like to refer you to silvernine's thread about the value of HotN and Guardian pack values.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?77461-A-Breakdown-of-the-Founder-Pack-Values
I think it's pretty clear here that HotN packs were already getting the short end of the stick in terms of value. If anything, HotN packs should have gotten more, relative to the Guardian pack. But I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for the same % increase.
Sure it's not a full percentage increase comparison but it was indeed over 3x the increase. And when you look at the price point we are paying for the packs (ingoring the 'actual value' figures) it's not so bad of a direct translation.
For paying 3.33 times the value hero of the north get 3.125 times the astral diamond increase.
Would many people complain if the increase was made the full 300% increase? I actually would imagine we would have quite a few angry Guardians stating 'I would have bought Heroes had the AD been ____,' So this argument has two streets.
I see where you're coming from but as far as I am concerned I'm happy with what I got. I was happy paying for the pack with the old value and I am happy to have gotten more than I expected. *shrugs and smiles*
Of course I wouldn't complain if we got the full 300%...but I'm not going to be asking for it personally.
Off Topic *scolds self*: Nice new avatar daytonamax
Seer of Seers, Sage of Sages, Prognosticator of Prognosticators,
The Boss of the Applesauce, Dwarven Cleric Extraordinaire...
Athkatla Arranaur, eat your heart out you gelatinous giant rat!
This is my thinking too.
But, I'll also note that the majority of those who spent $200 seem pretty content too.
It doesn't really matter what we think, the marketplace handles this kind of thing well. If the demand for the $200 pack continues to push forward, Cryptic will know they did the right thing. The beauty of business is, it pretty much determines whether something has value or not, in other words, your customers will let you know pretty quickly what they think of it, by either buying it or not buying it.
It's strange to me that even though a previously purchased item actually increased its benefits to its customers, that some people complained about it. Things you purchase in life, aren't guaranteed to keep their value, or rise in benefit in accordance to another offering. In fact, in life, you soon realize that buying something early is often the WRONG thing to do, because as demand subsides, the price of that item will likely decrease.
Caveat emptor.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
That would be assuming that everything else in the Hero's Pack works out to be worth 3.33 times more than what's in the Guardian pack. If we're going to get all up on percentage value increases.
People have already shown that the Guardian pack is better bang for the buck, so it would seem the above is untrue.
Before beta, "oh we bought the packs to support the game and the developers. Beta is just a bonus"
beta starts "Us pack buyers should be allowed into alpha, after all, we are paying for a game not out yet and u are letting anyone into beta"
after they increase the AD in the packs you already bought "I feel cheated u are giving me more than I originally paid for and was so happy to have and honored to be supporting the game."
geeee wonder what the gripe will be after beta weekend 3
WTB more QQ'ing
Just need to wait till the Armoured Horse or spider or Menzo Drow gets sold in the cash shop if you're wanting to glory over more pain.
Though that's not a very attractive personality trait you have going on over there
To somebody who doesn't give a rat's behind about drow the Menzo-Renegade is worthless. To a fan of the Salvatore Books and avid drow player it might be worth $50. I don't know I am making this up as I go
But that's the issue we face with the value of everythign besides Astral Diamonds. Personally I don't like the horse that much or the wolf but despite my HATRED of spiders I think that mount is freaking epic and I mean I would love my own personal Guenwyvar regardless of my status as a Drizzt fan. I think those two are worth far more than the Guardian Pack counterpart.
Plus that's without counting the other goodies such as VIP Log-in access. Nifty stuff there but again there' really little way to put a hard value on that. Some people mind waiting some people don't.
All in all...this entire issue comes down to personal opinion. I used the same logic on the previous page hat starkaos cited. To me that makes perfect sense...and to me the rest of the pack is worth more than the Guardian. So now it's purely a subjective fight based on nothing more than a personal opinions derived purely from personal perspectives.
the fact that dequipping/debounding starter weapon enchantment costs AD? cant dye moonstone outfit hot pink? too easy to accidentally sell old armour w/ aura still attached? founder's title does not, in fact, glow in the dark? no free season pass for founders? (sorry, couldnt resist that last one)
Beta Junkie
The overall absolute value of the packages are indeed personal opinion. What is 100% fact, however, is that one pack received almost twice the percentage increase of the other pack. Without a doubt, the Guardian is now worth more relative to HotN, and HotN is now worth less relative to Guardian. This is not subjective in the least.
If they pulled this same trick to the detriment of Guardians, I'd be equally incensed. Both HotN and Guardian buyers are paying customers, and deserved to be treated equally. Their purchases deserve to be upgraded in an equally proportionate manner.
Since they are both packs, then even though the HotN costs 3.33 times more than the Guardian, the actual worth is not the same. It could be a lot more or a lot less. Since almost everything in the pack is subjective, then it is impossible to determine if the HotN pack is worth 3.33 times more than the Guardian. Since PWE has made the claim that the HotN pack is worth $549 and the Guardian Pack is worth $149, then the HotN pack is worth 3.68 times the Guardian Pack. Although how they came to those prices is not known. We can determine the price of the Mount, Companion, Bag of Holding, Adventurer's Helper Pack, Respec Token, and Character Slots based on similar items in the C-Store. However dev confirmation is needed to determine the price of the other items. Otherwise it is pure speculation. Until other unique backgrounds are added, then the renegade background could be anywhere from $5 to $50.
Where x is the value of the HotN cosmetic and convenience content.
Where y is the value of the Guardian cosmetic and convenience content.
Where AD is 200,000 Astral Diamonds.
Where AAD is 400K Astral Diamonds.
Old Values.
Hero of the North = x + 3.75AD.
Guardian = y + AD.
New Values.
Hero of the North = x + 3.75AD + 3.125AAD.
Guardian = y + 3(AD) + AAD.
Mathmatically the only change is the additional astral diamonds. They added an amount of Astral Diamonds to the Guardian Pack. They added 3x that value to the 3.3x as expensive Hero of the North Pack. It was a flat increase to both packs with slight favoritism to Guardian Pack.
Without the numbers to obscure things it's pretty clear. Sure they could have done a percentage increase but that doesn't mean they did wrong. They increased the basic pack by a set amount. They increased the upper end pack 3.125x that amount for ~3x the cost.
There's nothing innately wrong with that. Mathmatically it all checks out, they added a flat bonus to both packs based on the actual sale price of those packs.
I could see complaining for .175AAD which comes out to 70,000 Astral Diamonds. But there's nothing wrong with simply giving a flat increase to both packs in my mind.
So much of the content has subjective value, and as you say, the value of these items we can't put a hard price on (and are valued differently according to each individual) will certainly be decreased should the items be subsequently sold in the cash shop. The other items (the ones we are able to price) definitely do not comprise the bulk of the overall value, if the Hero Pack is indeed actually worth over $500.
Personally, I would increase the AD in the Hero Pack, by the same proportion as has been added to the Guardian Pack. Nobody would be arguing then, the numbers would make sense to us. We'd simply be all "woah 300% increase, sweeet!"
As I said, they added a value to the basic pack, added 3x the value to the pack worth 3x as much (ignoring the 'real figure').
Mathmatically that is an even proportional addition.
Ask a retail manager for instance. Have them explain this wacky Retail Mark-up and Margin Table which is used basically throughout the industry even though it makes no logical sense to the average person. If somebody said to me I want to make a 20% profit margin on an item I would imagine that would mean "make 20% profit" on it.
However Apparently a 20% mark-up is only 16.67% Margin. So I mean math follows strict rules but it still does funky things which might not fit the mind-set of the average person's first impressions.
They didn't do what you expected, a full percent increase. They did an equivilently scaled addition to each pack. It's a completely fair and acceptable course...but it's not a percentage increase.
I'm having extreme difficulty in following your algebra here.
- Why are you denominating Astral Diamonds in two different variables?
- Guardian = y + 3(200K) + (400K) = 1,000,000?
***
Let's look at all the ways you can rationally compare the changes.
The math is very simple. And really, the only way anyone can argue that this change is fair to Heroes of the North is to ignore all other relevant facts and insist that 1,250,000 AD gained is higher than 450,000 AD gained.
Absolute Increase, HotN = 1,250,000
Absolute Increase, Guardian = 450,000
Relative Increase, HotN = 2.667x, or 167% increase
Relative Increase, Guardian = 4x, or 300% increase
Absolute Increase per dollar spent, HotN = 1,250,000/$200 = 6,250AD/$
Absolute Increase per dollar spent, Guardian = 450,000/$60 = 7,500AD/$
Relative Increase per dollar spent, HotN = 166%/$200 = 0.83%/$
Relative Increase per dollar spent, Guardian = 300%/$200 = 1.5%/$
...
How many cups of sugar does it take to get to the moon?
Neverwinter Wiki
600,000 Astral Diamonds...
2,000,000 Astral Diamonds...
$60...
$200..
Perhaps if Cryptic had pointed out this logic rather than stating an increase in value people wouldn't be screaming "unfair" as much.. This makes the packs give 10,000AD/$ ignoring the rest of the contents in each pack.
It *would* be nice to get a bulk package rate on the Hero of the North...
But w/e...
EDIT - They are two different variables because they are two different equations. One is the AD in the original Pack and one was the additional value. Sort of like doing an equation with Jonny's Apples and Megan's Apples. There are times you would like to separate them and that was one of them.
However I think the Pink Elephant makes more sense than the .175x difference.
This may be true of the situation now, but it doesn't resolve the fact that Heroes of the North are getting proportionately less.
70K Astral Diamonds. Again there's more than one way to skin a cat. There's no rule that everything has to be a percent increase. It is just as valid to look at it that they added a value to the Guardian Pack and added 3.125x that value to the Hero Pack.
There's no reason, and you're talking to a huge math nerd with eight years of work in retail, to assume the only fair way to increase the packs is with a percent of the original value. For all we know those numbers could be a percent of some hidden in house equation to begin with.
Increasing their in house values doesn't necessarily mean the values will scale exactly as one would imagine.
And that's assuming the values weren't derived from the Pink Elephant which in theory could make the values between the two more fair than they were before. CHanging doesn't always mean you get the exact same bargain. Sometimes others will gain more than you.
Bottom line is as a hero of the north purchaser I really don't see an issue. I got more than I did before...
I was happy with my purchase before. I am happier with it now.
Any unhappiness with the change is subjective to the opinion changes have to be proportional based only on percentages. If you are that unhappy as a Hero of the North Purchaser I'm sure they will refund based on these circumstances.
With due respect, your Guardian formula adds up to 1 million Astral Diamonds.
Would you also be kind enough to explain how you arrived at 0.175x and 70K Astral Diamonds? I am not a huge math nerd with eight years of work in retail, so please be patient with my incomprehension.
Susie and Johnny want to buy some apples from me.
I sell Susie 20 apples for 10 dollars.
I sell Johnny 75 Apples for 33 Dollars. Little bit of a bulk discount, w/e.
Well I had a great harvest and I don't feel I was treating them fair.
I give Susie 40 apples more for free.
Well Johnny paid roughly 3x as much so I decide to give him roughly three times as many bonus apples as I gave to Susie; 125 bonus apples for free.
That's fair isn't it?
Johnny didn't get a percent increase based on how much he originally bought, he got a proportional bonus based on how much he spent.
In the end Susie got 3x as many Apples as she started with but Johnny only got 2.6x more apples.
Does this explain things a bit clearer?
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