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pilf3r
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
There something that is annoying the hell out of me and that is how peeps are calling these build choices classes.
Lets get some things straight and maybe help lessen some confusion. A class is fighter, cleric, rogue,wiz etc etc. A Trickster rogue is a specific build of the rogue class.
So why claim there are five class at launch when in reality there are 4 classes but with an offering of 2 build choices for fighter.
The reality is there are 4 classes with 5 builds being offered. Why don't we call it as it is and say Neverwinter offers builds not classes.
Also I would like to add why offer multiple builds of one class (fighter) rather than one build of different class that isn't in yet?
Cryptic you could have offered two build such as guardian fighter and maybe avenging paladin instead of GWF? Why favor one class over the others?
Lets get some things straight and maybe help lessen some confusion. A class is fighter, cleric, rogue,wiz etc etc. A Trickster rogue is a specific build of the rogue class.
So why claim there are five class at launch when in reality there are 4 classes but with an offering of 2 build choices for fighter.
The reality is there are 4 classes with 5 builds being offered. Why don't we call it as it is and say Neverwinter offers builds not classes.
Also I would like to add why offer multiple builds of one class (fighter) rather than one build of different class that isn't in yet?
Cryptic you could have offered two build such as guardian fighter and maybe avenging paladin instead of GWF? Why favor one class over the others?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
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Unless they pregenerate the epic destiny as well. :rolleyes:
The video game Neverwinter has 5 classes. There are a number of different builds (albeit a relatively small number) that can be created using those classes. In Neverwinter, the Guardian Fighter and Great Weapon Fighter are entirely different classes in all ways that matter. That they both have "Fighter" in the name is irrelevant.
Neverwinter's classes are based on and named after 5 example builds from 4 classes in the 4E PnP game. In 4E, many different builds can be created using those classes, other than those example builds (which are only level 1 builds, anyway).
I think you are the one confused. Neverwinter is inspired by D&D 4th edition but it is not D&D 4th edition. Therefore classes here are Trickster Rogue, Guardian Fighter, Great Weapon Fighter, Devoted Cleric and Control Wizard and each of them has many different builds you can make.
Let me rephrase it then Neverwinter doesn't offer us base classes from which we can then build as we please, whether that be suggested paths or purely custom builds.
Neverwinter offers us suggested builds with very limited customization as classes. What should have happened is that they let us choose the class then a build either custom or suggested.
Example at creation screen you choose your class, fighter, cleric, rogue etc. Now say you choose fighter, you go to another screen where you get to choose between guardian or great weapon build . This would have allowed them to add more choices like custom or other suggested paths etc.
I understand a mmo can take any kind of build and say this is our blabla class, the thing though is this is based on DnD 4E so they should not be doing like other mmos.
I know this TYVM. Your idea of many is very stunted and limited. The choices we are being offered is the same HAMSTER we have in most any other mmos and not my idea of DnD choices or customization.
If you are going to base work off something else the main thing is to actually try to do that rather than juggle some names and paste that over previous cookie cutter junk.
But to each their own, if you like being limited.....
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
They're trying to market this as an MMO, "inspired by" 4E rules, but not adhering strictly to them.
And nobody LIKES being limited, but this is the easiest and quickest way for the company to make a dollar, by implementing limited character creation options at certain intervals. The more limited, the more they can use later on.
Let me ask you - what is a custom build? Is it a fighter wielding a sword and shield that is focused on dealing damage? Because you can do that now. And you can do Rogue that is focusing on crowd control rather than dealing damage or rogue that can stay away from melee and throw daggers at his enemies. You can do DPS cleric, although his primary role is healing and supporting his allies and you can do fighter who specializes on increasing the whole party's damage output and survivability rather than tanking directly or dealing damage. You can do all sorts of strange things with the current classes. Your problem seems to be that you lack the imagination to do so.
Your problem is that is that you lack the imagination to see what DnD is about. Even if 4E puts certain limits it has many many choices you can make even if you use a suggested build. A custom build is a build you "invent" depending on what your goal is. You can't really do that with suggested builds as the goals are chosen for you with only a very limited choice for variation.
Anyhoot I am not interested in discussing this with you or a few others like you that refuse to even try and understand what we are saying. I am posting this for others that are like minded and so Cryptic can't say I never gave them my 2cents.
Perhaps you should read the quote under my siggy.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
I agree with this, but to expand on it a little bit. In NWO, you can't exactly OPTIMIZE your TR to stay out of battle and throw knives; you're limited to what powers they present to you and can't create an efficient build to represent or even play that TR to the best of his ranged abilities.
If your GF isn't focusing on blocking most of the time, you're losing out on your daily power. What you try to make up for in imagination might end up costing you a major role in battle efficiency.
It does offer us base classes, from which we can build as we please. Subject, as in all games, to the rules of the game.
The rules of the game are simply more restrictive, and the breadth of options less than we've come to expect based on PnP (although this has not been a constant in D&D's history!). It is, however, roughly similar to other MMOs. In particular, TERA's build options (per class) are very similar to what Neverwinter appears to have. DDO's relatively faithful reproduction of a PnP ruleset is very much an outlier among MMOs.
You are arguing for something here that is different than your original post. You are arguing for an alternative game design. Whereas in the OP you are arguing against classifying the 5 classes that Neverwinter currently has slated for launch as 5 builds of 4 classes instead. These are different points.
I'm right there with you in wanting more build options. Not because it has to in order to "be D&D" or whatever, but because character building is something I greatly enjoy, and a big factor in DDO being the only MMO I stuck with. But arguing that Neverwinter currently has "builds" not "classes" is not sound.
Ok, so you're disappointed you can't make the class/build combo you want? I think that may be a bit petty as they are handing us this great world to play in. Besides, there is always DDO should you prefer to do your own custom builds. Not good enough? Don't play, save us the grief.
I am not changing any kind of argument from my original post , I am just expressing what I was getting at with my original post.
Like I told elve I am not interested your opinions, I already know what many of your believe and you are very well entitled to your opinion.
I however do not agree with it and would rather this thread not turn into a pissing match about who is right or wrong. I posted for peeps here that agree with my views, I am not interested in any kind of debate and would rather avoid discussion with people like bantafan56 who post flamey little posts with no substance.
This isn't out of any kind hate or anything like that but simply because I would rather not be dragged down into replies like, " if you don't like it go play somewhere else and don't let the door hit you in the HAMSTER on the way out" type talks.
Btw quorforged if I wanted to play something like Tera I would play that instead I would rather play something closer to DnD. You all act as if Oh noes if it was closer to DnD it would be a bad bad thing and the game would suck and OMG DOOOOM or try to find silly reason why an"argument" is invalid when in reality it is not an argument but an opinion and it's the general idea that is important and not how it was delivered. This isn't debate club and I don't really care about proper techniques.
Quorforged like I have said you are entitled to your opinion I just don't share it but please no false claims that my reasoning isn't sound. Some of what you say involves fallacies.
Anyways I will not reply anymore I have had enough of the fanboy comments every time someone expresses an opinion different to what the WOW club wants. This last bit isn't targeted at you quorforged but rather a general sentiment to explain my decrease in posts compared to before closed beta started.
We had a pretty decent community before, we didn't always agree and sometimes argued vehemently yet always you got the sense that peeps where trying to see your point of view, but it is quickly becoming like any other game forum where posting is kind of a waste of time.
Just because I would like for there to be more options does not mean I am "petty" or do not appreciate the game world, what is "petty" is coming to a thread with no other opinion than someone is "petty" because you do not agree with them.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
The good old "dont let the door hit you on your way out". We heard that before and it actually happened and now the same people that went by that philosophy are playing alone on dead servers and complaining that everyone left for a mediocre game.
Some people are impatient and just want the game to come out so that they can play it. He is saying he wish he could actually have more power over the creation of his character instead of just launching a premade with cosmetic customization. We get to choose a name and hairstyle for our characters and we should be happy that at some point we get to choose if we want to add 1% to crits, damage or armor class? Thats the amount of freedom of creation we have right now for our characters.
OK, so you fully agree that what Neverwinter is slated to launch with is 5 classes, not 5 builds for 4 classes? You would simply prefer that there be 4 classes, which provided options for those 5 builds, and more? If so, then we are largely in agreement.
I did not suggest playing TERA. I merely cited it as an example of what classes are in MMOs, by way of refuting your arguments in the OP that Neverwinter's classes aren't actually classes. But I guess that's not what you actually meant to argue, so it's tangential at this point.
Again, for most of this thread, I was not arguing that the way Neverwinter's classes are done is a good thing (I'm in fact disappointed in how limited they are). Just that they are classes.
I have not acted this way. I don't think anyone has suggested this, actually.
An opinion stated with the intent of influencing others (even if it's just the Cryptic devs) is inherently an argument. If you don't want to engage in further discussion, that's your prerogative, of course.
Actually, if the OP stated something you simply didn't mean to say, it sounds like we are largely in agreement.
Although I'm kind of curious what logical fallacies you think I used...
The cleric has two basic builds to start: the battle cleric
and the devoted cleric. Clerics rely on Strength for
their melee attacks and Wisdom for their healing and
non-melee prayers. Charisma also aids their abilities.
4E calls them builds because that's exactly what they are: example level 1 builds, recommended for new players so they don't have to pick their own powers. They're not "restrictive" at all, because builds are literally incapable of being restrictive. They aren't rules or mechanics of any sort. Builds are merely a set of selected character creation options.
Other than their names and some thematic inspiration, 4E's example builds have very little in common with Neverwinter's classes. Which, sure, are restrictive compared to 4E's classes, but they're still classes, not builds.
You are being unreasonable - you are dismissing every bit of logic thrown at you with just a simple "I don't care about you!".
Why is this logic dangerous and potentially harmful? You are claiming that you want more customization but that is not true. The thing you want is to make Neverwinter, a computer game, more like PnP D&D. If Cryptic decide to listen to that kind of logic they will push the release date back as they will need a lot of time to implement the changes you desire. This means more money spent on artificial changes that do not work well in a computer game anyway. This means disappointed fans who will never come back to Neverwinter. It means outdated graphics and mechanics when the game finally comes out as well.
How much is variety improved in this game by attaching a D&D character progression system to it? Not much really. Just instead of selecting your weapon to specialize in at character creation you do it at level 10 or 20 or whatever. You also have a bunch of skills that are functionally identical to choose from which is not a real choice when it comes to how your play your character.
ruinedmirage, you can do that here as well. You are given more powers that you can use at any given time and you can spend points on passive bonuses that complement one playstyle over the other. Selecting the right gear for any given situation also affects your combat performance.
The limited variety of powers and customization is an issue. However there are two ways to fix the this issue within the game. One is to throw everything out and start a new. The second is to improve upon the existing system - add more skills, make the trait point investment more meaningful, give greater significance to the ability scores that you choose, more paragon paths to choose from that affect significantly your gameplay. The second way is much easier and can happen gradually over a period of time without having the release date pushed back. Some time ago I posted a thread with a few suggestions on how to improve the Power and Trait systems and provide greater variety into the game. I also asked other forum members for suggestions on the topic and asked them to review my own. I would collect the most well-though-out ideas and add them to the op. The idea was to create a well organized Thread that provided constructive criticism on the systems and ideas on how to improve them. Shockingly no one cared though and the mind-numbingly stupid threads "this is not D&D, this should be like D&D" continued... who could have though that people are just complaining but when they are asked to provide ideas how to improve the system without destroying it completely they fall short...
I don't agree with your ideas they are rooted in fear and ignorance, that it will cost too much for poor poor PWE and cryptic to change some things and the fear of the release date being pushed back.
That said do you see me pissing in your thread, constantly hassling you and others with your opinion? Your continued assaults on people and what they think is bordering on harassment.
The idea that you must refute every single idea and the same ones at that in every thread from every poster that doesn't agree with you is equally dangerous and ludicrous as it just becomes a subtle flame fest where the "winner" is the one that has more endurance in continually posting the same thing over and over and over.
Is it a wonder no one wants to post ideas in your thread...:rolleyes:.
You don't agree with me fine go play in your thread and get support for your ideas there and stop crapping in mine. Last thing please fracking stop saying I want A PnP game I haven't played PnP in a long time.
You know what you win, I give the frack up.
Mods this thread has become something I didn't want it to be please lock it. Thank You.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Group A wants to see NW follow the 4E rules a little more closely and give us the ability to customize our characters. As in real customization. As in, playing a Fighter, not just a Guardian Fighter or a Great Weapon Fighter.
Group B is concerned that any change to the existing system will cause PW to delay or even cancel the game because it's too hard to change things.
I think we're all forgetting that the devs have already created a system to build their "classes" with. And that system is almost certainly far more flexible than the builds they are giving us. I firmly believe that they are holding out until post launch to give us the ability to convert our characters to "custom builds".
None of us want to see this game fail. The devs least of all. They know how important customization is to Cryptic fans (CoH/STO/CO, etc...) as well as D&D fans. They will not risk losing their player base to Pathfinder Online or EQ Next by putting completely unnecessary limitations on our characters. These builds are almost certainly in place for the F2P market only, similar to the archetypes in CO.
Bear with them. Be patient. Keep reminding them that this is what we want, by all means, but be prepared for it to be quite some time before base character classes make it into the game. They'll be there eventually if they have any hope of keeping this game's player base interested. After all, the non D&D/non Cryptic fans are not playing this game for long. They'll move on when the next new thing comes out. PW has one audience they are paying attention to. And that audience wants customization.
Lets say MMOs are cars. You REALLY like the color green, but no company really makes green cars. Turbine(DDO) did, but that was ages ago & you're looking for a new model. Cryptic comes along sporting the new green cars they're presenting this year... go-carts. Hey... they're 'like' cars, right?
After all its based of D&D and the developers have already shown (atleast in my book) that they want to cater to the fans of the series, lets have some hope in them and see what they can bring out, and if by then its official and you still arent happy with where the game is going, well...its a free to play title and you can always choose to not play the game or move on to something else.
Even so the change would require not only logical way to change the abilities but also a lot of thinking(how to make each power feel different, how to balance different powers) and many art assets - menu art, power and trait icons, armor models, weapon models, power animation(possibly different for each weapon-power combination) and so on.
I really do not think that anybody is opposed to improving the character development system but let's start small and maybe later we are going to work our way to bigger things.
ichbin, your metaphor is a bit iffy. You should have gone with Cryptic's cars being seafoam green instead of being go-carts
Also please give the current system a chance, it is not D&D but it can do some pretty good things.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
But the heart of my problem with this is that they are both, for all intents and purposes, Fighters still. It would have made much more sense if instead, Cryptic went the route of creating a base Fighter class. And then at some point later --it could very well be the next menu during character creation for all I care-- made us permanently choose which kind of Fighter we want to be. Doing it this way, I believe, makes more sense and is more advantageous. This allows Cryptic to make powers for the base class, so that both Guardian and Great Weapon can access the same select subset of powers. And then make powers specifically for Guardian and for Great Weapon as they are doing now.
The closest MMO example I could compare to right now is WoW (put WoW-fanboying and/or WoW-hating aside for now please). In WoW, you select a base class, and at level 10, you pick 1 of 3 specializations (or builds as we call it here) (let's just leave out the fact that WoW lets you freely alternate between specs - I'm not looking for that in this game). With this system, all 3 specializations share a common base skill list, while each having its own unique extra set of skills.
Now, translate that into Neverwinter which is basically what I have stated above. Make us pick a base class, and at level One, make us pick which build to stick with. This way, it would make more sense to call it a Fighter class using a Guardian build.
If nothing else, how silly it would be in the far future, that when we make a new character, what we'll basically see from the list of classes is: Fighter A, Fighter B, Cleric A, Cleric B, Rogue A, Rogue B, Wizard A, Wizard B, Ranger A, Ranger B, Warlock A, Warlock B, Bard A, Bard B, Warlord A, Warlord B, Paladin A, Paladin B, and so on. A menu with quite the long list that could easily be trimmed down by half if they did something like what I described instead.