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Prevent repetitive gear grind.
vorathian
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Please for the love of Torm prevent the gear grind that makes gear completely obsolete 2 months after you get it. If I work hard for something in game I'd like it to at least last 6 months. Keep this in mind as well...look what wow did with gear with multiplying X stat over and over to make the gear more and more epic to the point where joe schmoe has 3423423423 hit points. Even the devs in wow have said its gotten far more ridiculous than they could have imagined.
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I'm hoping it sticks to pnp rules (basically) and we can already see what the end game gear would look like.
Ravenloft
Look for@Apocrs1980 or visit the main page here or Ravenloft here
I was wondering the exact same thing as well. I really hope that Neverwinter does not become a game of insanely big numbers. I don't really want to be hitting and critting for 10K. That means the bosses will start to be in the millions of hit points at high level and that to me is just annoying. If it were up to me, I would have a 5K Crit be a rare thing even at high levels. Attacks from so many characters make it so the numbers have to be inflated to some point. I am just curious what those numbers will be.
i totally disagree with this. i'm playing gw2 since release. at first, i thought their item system was a good idea. but now i think it isnt. why? you have NO feel of progression at all after a while. your character just doesn't evolve anymore and that makes it boring to continue playing. a basic thing of roleplaying games is, to get stronger, to progress over time. gw2 does not offer this, which results in the fact that you're just creating more and more twinks as soon as your character is equipped. gw2 is static and not evolving anymore as soon as you reach 80. you need new challanges, new rewards and the feeling to get stronger in a way as soon as you reach max level. and since you don't gain any new levels, that's done over item progression. i'm leveling my sixth character in gw2 atm and it's just boring to know, as soon as you reach 80 and u have exotic+ascended gear, there's nothing else to do. the only reason i'm still playing is my guild friends.
by all means. flame wow as much as you want. but there's a reason it's the most successfull mmo. it knows how to keep players playing and addicted. itemprogression is a big part of it. i can totally understand where people who don't want item progression are coming from. but in my opinion, they don't think about it enough in long terms.
While I am for new expansions and content releases upping how powerful gear is, I seriously hate the gearflation that has gone on in different MMOs. It is unnecessary to up the power of baseline gear 200% in an expansion. 10% is plenty to make gear better.
Eq, so far, in NWO is VERY restricted with only a few bonuses possible and little variety between each piece. Since characacters are currently restricted to one weapon type and armor type...this leads to having a very small variety of possible weapon options for each level range. Since EQ is ALSO locked in by level (can't wear EQ too high a level for you) this means running quests for higher level eq doesn't help much either.
All of this basically means until you reach level 60....there is probably not going to be a ton of reason to grind for EQ anyway. Even at level 60, unless things change drastically in what bonuses EQ gives, you probably won't be grinding for it that much either.
One of the biggest things i'm curious/worried about is end game content and what ways our characters will progress once we get there. The EQ system as it stands right now is not going to motivate many players I don't think....hopefully that will change.
I strongly agree with this. Keep on releasing new slightly better gear for us to go after at regular intervals, but only slightly better.
Then again, this is a D&D game. They might incorporate DDO's craftable legendaries, that can be tweaked however the heck you want. Whatever route they take, I hope for the best. Even I'm sad to admit that the gear treadmill was a big thing for me way back when. I like feeling like my character is constantly getting stronger, then again, the control scheme of Guild Wars 2 kind of bored the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of me after 400 hours of play.
... Yeah yeah. I know. After 400 hours being the big kicker, like 400 hours means nothing. Not saying that, just haven't felt the need to log back in after hitting end-game.
I too am an old school DnD fan/player and in fact, that is one thing I don't think Dungeons and dragons online never got right. Questing should be for a reason, and quite often that reason should be for some really nice loot. It's not a random chance to get the loot, but a quest FOR THE LOOT!.
Named loot etc should be part of quests, something you actively hunt for etc, and not by doing a quest 23 times for a random drop. That +4 flaming sword of orc bane should be named and known throughout the realm, and a reason you do a specific quest in the first place. Various quests with different "named" loot should be available so you can pick and choose which quests you do, based on the equipment you will get or other rewards (not just exp being the primary factor).
Random loot is great, but the best equipment?.......It should be well known...and players should have to do hard quests in order to get it. I'm not saying EVERY equipment slot should be filled with epic named loot mind you, but I do think there should be a decent selection out there for players to adventure for...it's one of the main reasons we would do quests in the old days...and due to MMO mechanics, it's been ignored or replaced with (small chance of epic weapon dropping etc).
Your raiding a dungeon infested with undead, Orcs, Oozes and even a beholder.....why?....just for the heck of it? Because someone asked you to save their niece or something (not all characters are motivated by being a goody two shoes)....no...because you heard of the Bartok the Barbarian who was last seen alive venturing into that dungeon and his famous Ring of Stoneskin which allowed his skin to ignore blows that would kill most men. The wizards do quests to find scrolls or items that boost their magical power etc.
What ever happened to questing based off the equipment you would get?
thats an amazing point which i totally seem to have forgotten in my post. all those "hardcore" oldtime players. all those players who critisize loot and grinding seem to have forgotten, that the reason for adventures in the old times, was amazing loot to aquire.
So that said, I fully believe there will be gear grind, I fear that over time we will see the same monty haul effect hit NW as hit DDO, and all the power scaling to go with it. So yeah, you have a +300 sword of kickassery, but the mobs now have Damage Reduction to minimize that in addition to everything else.
In a well run D&D campaign, that phat loot was *slightly* better than what you had. Say you had a +1 sword, you went and found a +2 or a +1+ (like plus acid damage, etc.). It was enough to be 'cool' but not enough that you suddenly a nuke in the middle ages. In MMOs you tend to go from +1 acid to +6 acid burst of holy smiting! Then you start getting the good gear . . .
I am a real old timer - we rarely got magic at low levels and as a result we always had a blast with new loot and still had a challenge with non tweaked encounters.
I've played it until January myself, I left too because of feeling to static, like I hit a wall, but I don't think items should be the way to fix that. I'd like to see progression of the character, through skills and options, and development of the player's own skills accomplish this rather than getting a new weapon and suit of armor.
I'm also hoping that they kind of stick to pnp rules on this, and I'm not generally concerned with sticking to PnP for things. Gear can progress just let it stop after awhile, let it be paced out. If a +6 weapon in pnp is level 21 (4th ed) then lets not get +6 equivilent weapons until end game. Holy Avengers should be, I feel, the example of an end game weapon.
Open up gear progress to side grades and customization. Something that adds uniqueness not bonus' to the base line. Special effects or certain properties. Have the truly legendary weapons do something unique, like a dancing battleaxe, or let them open up a new tier of special abilities you can acquire through gaining xp like you had been. Assign that xp to one particular item at a time and you'll have a longer play life with progression.
Please note, all that's just off the top of my head, brainstorming, I'm not really trying to sell any particular tactic.
What my hope is though, that people will keep playing because its really fun and the foundary can give us loads of new content that push the boundaries of creativity.
I have been tabletop gaming for 30 years. And I have not once - not *once* - ever in that time gone on a quest for the gear. Some guy asks me to save his niece, and that's why I and my band of adventurers go off into the dungeon. Any gear we get during it was a bonus. For me and my gaming groups, questing for gear is and always has been limited to video games. So this argument makes no sense to me.
In a video game you need gear progression. Or you need something to replace it. Something for players to keep chasing after, that takes time to acquire. Lots of time. Because otherwise there's no sense of character evolution, and no reason to keep playing. Most people don't even read quest text - so if you remove grinds and progression, why would most people continue playing? If they're not reading the quests, they're certainly not there for them. So removing the grinding for gear removes their incentive to play and you wind up with empty servers.
It was never always about the loot, the people I used to play with it was always much more than just the loot. Political intrigue, rescue missions, averting disaster or open war with another kingdom, unraveling a mystery etc. The story was always the meat and potatoes of PnP Dungeons and Dragons. Getting that fat magic item was second fiddle to the story unfolding before you, even if that fat magic item was the particular focus of an adventure. That is and always will be D&D to me, great story telling.
You and Nikkal below you both make excellent points that I fully agree with. My sincere hope though, is that Neverwinter will not need you to repeat content in order to gear grind, at least not exclusively anyway. I understand that there will be desirable sets of gear in dungeons, meaning you will need to repeat them in order to get the gear sets, and I understand that they want PvP gear only attainable by Glory(the PvP currency) but it is my hope that for other grinding, namely Astral Diamonds for cosmetic things, the foundry will be a way for you to obtain desirable items without grinding the same quest over and over.
Neverwinter Official Wiki - http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/
Well the AD are simply time based, aren't they? So if the gear upgrades you want are AD purchased, then it doesn't matter what you're doing, right? Questing, RPing, socializing, crafting, whatever you want to be doing, you just have to be online to click the 'convert AD' button.
That's my understanding of how it works ... and I'll admit, that sounds pretty cool to me. That means you can be doing whatever you want to be doing, and still be working toward progression, even if you're just sitting in a tavern RPing having a drink with friends - something which classically in an MMO, prevents you from character progression.
30 years here too, 33 to be precise, (uggh that's just so awful to admit) and I have certainly quested for gear sometimes. It's all dependent on campaign style, alignment of the party and the REASON you want the gear. Of course, that's not to demonize your style, only to recognize that we all have different approaches to the game, all of them valid.
It takes all kinds folks, people play these games for different reasons, with different motivating factors. I've said it before, I'll say it again, hand a module off to 4 different gaming tables, then circle around each table as they play. Each game has a very unique flavor and in the end, a slightly different outcome. That's one of the great and beautiful things about D&D.
I've played with GMs who actually design/write actual D&D product, you'd be amazed at how some of them play fast and loose with the rules. When it comes time to GM, they take their rules lawyer hats off and just have fun with the game in the style and method they prefer.
As for gear grinding specifically, I'll have an opposite problem. I fear that the "coolest" looking gear, for RP purposes, will be payola gear, (that I'll have to transmogrify better stats to as I rise). So I expect not to have to invest a lot of time grinding, rather I expect to have to open up my wallet and cough up real bucks.
It takes a village, I guess.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
I never said it was ever all about the loot, but there were quests (not just in DnD...in shadowrun etc as well) for specific items. Named items of power etc. It was a motivation for many quests both bought and created by DMs. In other cases it might not be the MAIN objective, but there was some very nice weapons etc available in a quest...and you always got it if you killed the right person etc.
The point is that random loot...should be random. It might be ok, maybe even slightly magical, but in most cases very powerful named items....are known to the world and kept track of (even if it was last known/seen going into such and such a dungeon with a certain character).
I agree with the whole monty hall type thing with DDO. It's gotten so crazy at this point that full party quests set for characters 3 levels higher are easily finished solo. Every warrior can have invisibility whenever they want, DR up the yazoo, unlimited healing, cure poison/disease/remove curse, the ability to self ressurect at will etc. Magic is so prevalent in DDO that getting any one piece often feels pointless, especially when your talking about random loot dropping in at level quests.
What I would rather see are actual challenging quests, that have equipment that is better then the random stuff you can get at level. The point of the quest doesn't have to be ONLY getting that weapon mind you (you still get exp, gold etc), but it makes more sense that the strongest equipment in the land should be known in advance and obtainable directly by doing certain quests (And killing certain enemies in the quest etc).
I hope something like that is possible eventually with the foundry system. The problem I see with that though is unless we have a strick review board that goes over foundry missions and determines what power level the loot can be for a certain quest, people could make easy quests with strong loot...which would make completing the difficult quests pointless other then to just finish them again.
Better loot, for more difficult quests (meaning it's less likely someone else would have come through and finished it already, so the loot is better) is how I think it should work.
Yeah, me and my friends often altered rules as needed when playing. Dice rolls were important, but if a player found an exceptional way to solve a problem, a dice roll might not even be needed. I personally as a DM often focused both on problem solving skills (various challenges to over come, puzzles, riddles, social skills etc) and tactics in combat.
Evil characters, thieves, many spellcasters etc all quested for loot, items etc in games I have both played and DM'd in the past. It wasn't the most common goal of a quest, but it wasn't rare either. It was a nice little bonus to have in quests when leveling wasn't super fast (back in the original editions) and you could do many quests and gain only a level or 2.
I didn't ever go for the CRAZY amount of magical items that we have in MMO's. The amount of magic in the worlds we played in varied by DM greatly, but nothing was even close to as crazy as DDO or other MMO's that are sorta based on D&D. I don't think you have to have such insane amounts of magical items, and in fact, having small boosts over time makes more sense and is probably more fun over all.
I don't know if we can really miss in NWO though (didn't really notice missing.....perhaps we hit for a bit less damage sometimes though..but that just might not be us critting), and damage is skill based to a large degree, so i'm not even sure how much of a different equipment is going to make. Also, 60 levels is a very long way to go with constant equipment upgrades. It's one thing to have 20 levels max and have to range from basic weapons, to magical +5 weapons by level 20, then it is to go from basic weapons to godlike weapons I guess by level 60. If you have any increase in weapon power every level...and you have 60 levels, thats going to be a very large range in damage/power.
Different activities grant rough ADs. One of them is praying to your deity, which during the beta granted AD up to something like 3 times a day from what people observed.
Another thing that will presumably grant rough ADs(just like it grants dilithium in STO) will be foundry missions. The amount of AD you get will most likely be based on how long a mission takes to complete.
Other things that granted AD in the beta, and will presumably still do so once the game is released included, some storyline quests, Skirmishes, and Contests.
From the Extended FAQ:
Skrimishes: In these events, you're teamed up with a group of adventurers to complete a particular objective inside an instanced area. Complete the objective successfully for major rewards!
Contests: These provide competitive PvE objectives in outdoor mission areas. Bragging rights are not the only rewards for winning these competitions.
You may only convert a certain amount of rough AD into refined ADs per day. In beta this number was 24,000.
Neverwinter Official Wiki - http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/
In the early 1980's long before the current age of loot questing video games, many many times had I gone on an adventure for a component to make a magic item. Which is in it's essence questing for a magic item. And quiet a few times since then I have gone on a quest or had my players go on a quest for a specific magic item. Just because you did not do something doesn't mean others did not do it in table top games.
It always tickles me how so many people see the same word as it applies to a MMO to mean so many fundamentally different things.
Here is something worse
1.this game is NOT like PnP-DnD:the game is NOT turn based like dnd wich makes one cast per raund or attack per raound not existant in the game(dnd is about this)
2.you will have to grind for equipment on high lvls-gw2 failed on end game,blizzard failed on too much players PW has many samll solutions so everyone has possibility to get items through many small events(you will like it)
3.you cant get rid of itemisatzion-the hardest boss HAS to has best loot(if not where is the logic of killing him)and to kill best boss oyu need best players(proplayers) if you dont hvae pros the game will not survive on causal gamers
4.the game is really good right now if they manage to do the endgame like wowvanilla/burning crusade the game will destroy every other mmo on market in pve content
5.PVP-gw2 failed hard on this one-i dont know what PW planned for pvp BUT if they manage to "balance"to wow-arena lvl they will win millions of players IF they balance the charackters like LoL the game will be devouring every game in internet for 100%
6.AH-this is THE BIGGEST issue right now in NWo many people fear the possibility the PW want to do AH like (mohterfucking greedy)blizzard in diablo 3 so you can sell gold for reall money and buy gold for rreal money wich destroyed D3 completly(the game was bad as it was)(its true Blizzard and PAypal made millions of dollars becasue of Ah and microtransactions)
7.Proplayers-thats the most important part:progamers are the smallest part of gaming commiunities but they are needed for causal gamers to teach them how to play-so you have to have strong concept for gaming from the developer studio to keep them to like the game and so they want to play the game on daily basis
8.pve rading- there is nothing more important in the MMos as posssability to raid because thats the point of a guild you want to show how good you are with you skill,cryptic said on launch we will not have raids but in future they will make it(question is how long will they wait) IF raiding will be in this game you HAVE to expect itemspiral through the game-GW2 failed on this side completly
9.again everyone who likes to play dnd like nomral BG or NW or pnp will be disapointed because you DONT have charackter customisation there no multicalses you dont even have such possibilitys i am worrior but i want to go dual wielding SADLY no the cahrackters are made from cryptic side and you will get THE ablitys your charackter is prepared you dont have to think wich stats wich weapons armor abilitys you need