Value verse Quality. - Money verse the Video Game.

neoyoshi · February 2013

In the last few weeks i haven't had a lot of time to really do anything other then digest an extensive amount of reading material, and having a great deal of time to think about things. (due to a current physical disability) Within this time-frame i learned about the Founders Pack and the various perks surrounding it.

I went through various articles from different websites, reading about different opinions; some of them were interesting reads, while others were mind-numbingly garbage-like diatribes of people simply not liking the idea all together.

After all this reading, a thought occurred to me that surprisingly from what i could find, no one has even brought up.

"What if i can't stand this game?"

That's the thought that went through my mind, and from that point on, i knew i wanted to at least share what was on my mind concerning this, because from a logical stand-point, it's a pretty fair perspective on the "Product verse Consumer" ideology.

Further thinking on the matter, i thought of myself becoming a paying consumer of this product: The "Hero of the North" founders pack. Theoretical scenario: So i pay the $199.00 USD, including what taxes that may apply if any.

Now from here on out, two things can happen, i either love the game in it's many features and forms, and i am able to play the game and perhaps feel like paying the $199.00 was worth it.

Or the game simply does not have anything to offer a particular player like me to keep me playing the game.

What good are these items that i payed for inside the Founders Pack if it turns out that the game is simply either not up to my personal standards or is simply not enjoyable at all. It's not like i can take all those virtual items with me.

This is something that bothers me, because i do like the idea of the Founders Pack, and i believe it is a good incentive and an additional avenue to fund a game that can not rely on a subscription model.

But without having any knowledge and foresight into how the game actually plays and feels to the individual before they chose to pay such a lofty sum of money, just... feels wrong to me.

In my mind, it would seem more right and justified to release these Founder packs until "after" the Beta phases, after everyone has had a chance to test the game out and to know whether or not this game is for them or not.

I can't help but wonder about this, because personally, i do really like that Giant Spider mount, but i have no idea if i will even like this game.

Am i the only one who feels like the logic in all of this is side-ways?

muzrub333 · February 2013

Congrats, you're every marketing guys worst nightmare; a consumer who slowly and deliberately thinks before spending money. I am in complete agreement with you, that it would be unwise to spend money on a product with the limited info we have, esp. a free to pay product. I am quite content waiting for release to see, and pretty confident that I too will be able to have a spider mount in game, although perhaps not the same one.

I do however feel that many people really are convinced this is the game for them, and that to them, the $200 was well worth it. We all have different value sets, and priorities, so there is no right or wrong answer as far as buying vs not buying. The problem arises when purchases are made based not on thoughtful examination, but rather on an emotional tug; marketers are masters of manipulation, and too often they get us all fired up for something, that we might not purchase if we took a few moments to look at it clearly.

So in short form, congrats to you, me and everyone else, whether we bought or not; I just hope people thought about it before they pulled out the credit card.

shiaika · February 2013

Do you like charity? If you do, do some for Cryptic. $20. Maybe $60. $200 if you feel really generous. You happen to receive some stuff for your generosity too.

Too alergic to the thought of the possiblity of the game sinking faster than light or simply disliking it that not even charity is enough to justifiy the money? Don't spend and wait for launch (unless you get free beta key at some point).

marenor · February 2013

I understand the dilemma but have a few thoughts on the matter. The Founders packs are available now and in the future. The offering of the Founders packs now allows the customers that have made the decision to buy with the information available to buy now, with the bonus of initial closed beta access. The beta tests, closed and open, will provide additional information for customers to make the decision to purchase the Founders packs or not. I saw a post from an internal source that the Founders packs would be probably be available at least until launch. PWE/Cryptic are simply allowing consumers to make the purchase decision throughout this process. Each consumer will have their own value proposition and metrics for when the decision is appropriate for them and what that decision will be. Having the ability to purchase the Founders packs throughout the process allows each consumer to make the decision appropriate for them at the appropriate time with the appropriate information. All purchases have a speculative nature and the risk of buyer's remorse is present for all purchases. Allowing individuals to analyze the purchase with their individual value proposition and make the decision that is appropriate for them, I believe is a good thing. Each person will assess the value gained by increased information in the decision making process against any perceived loss of value as the bonus of closed beta weekends expire. The value proposition of the certainty of the fit of the product against the perceived value of the bonus closed beta access is the nature of the decision that is being made. Allowing each individual to make the decision appropriate for them. I hope this helps.

shado152 · February 2013

usually founders packs are available for about 1 day or sometimes even a week after beta for those who share your opinions but seriously its just a buyer vs buyer scenario EG:do you wanna get the items and test them out first or do you wanna wait for the last possible moment and maybe have something wrong that completely stops you from having the item all together? i for one do like what im seeing in the packs to give them my support now i cannot speak for others but if i dont like what i get there is always the option of selling my account off and making another one if i decide to leave the game and and then come back to PWE because i find something else but i have never found myself doing that thankfully xD

kentheprogrammer · February 2013

As long as the Founder's Packs are available beyond any open beta they may have (or soft launch if they have no open beta), then I might consider one of the packs assuming I've played enough to make the determination that it's worth the money. To that same end, I almost never buy games anymore before I've had a chance to demo it (whether that be during open beta or a demo that's released before or after launch) or at least have read a few reviews or gotten a recommendation from a friend.

To me it's akin to a gamble at this point, especially since I feel like I know less about this game than I do about games that are probably launching after this one (ESO for instance). The information surrounding this game seems so sparse and bits are few and far between. Maybe that's just because this is the only community I've found for the game (the subreddit is mostly empty and most of the other more "mainstream" sites don't really seem to be covering it with much zeal until the livestream by MMORPG today).

drwarpeffect · February 2013

I suspect that Founders Packs will not be available forever, but they might be. I know MWO capped them after giving a deadline, advertising that everyone should hurry and buy one, and then extending the deadline "due to popular demand." Eventually they quit selling them and began selling "hero" mechs instead. Selling a "Founders Pack" very long after release certainly calls into question the use of the name "Founder."

The OP leaves out another bad scenario. In addition to finding out you don't like the game $200 worth, you could find the game really great and yet lose out on playing it, or become dissatisfied because the game fails to attract a large enough playerbase. For example, both SWTOR and Secret World went F2P after their subscription basis failed to attract enough takers. The prudent thing to do is to wait and see how things go after launch. I suspect you will have almost unlimited opportunities to spend money after launch.

When I was part-owner of a computer company (and custom software shop) we proudly sold our products as excellent values for a very solid price. I felt like our customers could not find a better value for their money. I wish online gaming companies would strive to provide customers with best value rather than relying on a system that takes advantage of customers' willingness to overpay. I started being interested in NW because I thought it might become the best fantasy MMORPG such that I would be excited about making purchases. Instead, I feel insulted they have marketed a $200 "roll the dice and pray" package as if I was foolish enough to buy it. BTW, the fact that so many bought it proves my claim as far as I am concerned. They sold it "because they could" rather than because an informed consumer was getting value for their money. For those of you that bought it @ $200, would you have bought it for $99? I bet a lot of other people would have too, indeed I would estimate more than twice as many, hence PWE would have made more money, not less.

zylaxx · February 2013

muzrub333 wrote: »

Congrats, you're every marketing guys worst nightmare; a consumer who slowly and deliberately thinks before spending money. I am in complete agreement with you, that it would be unwise to spend money on a product with the limited info we have, esp. a free to pay product. I am quite content waiting for release to see, and pretty confident that I too will be able to have a spider mount in game, although perhaps not the same one.

I do however feel that many people really are convinced this is the game for them, and that to them, the $200 was well worth it. We all have different value sets, and priorities, so there is no right or wrong answer as far as buying vs not buying. The problem arises when purchases are made based not on thoughtful examination, but rather on an emotional tug; marketers are masters of manipulation, and too often they get us all fired up for something, that we might not purchase if we took a few moments to look at it clearly.

So in short form, congrats to you, me and everyone else, whether we bought or not; I just hope people thought about it before they pulled out the credit card.

As much as I think I love the game I am completely in the same boat. Will not spend money until I know for 100% certainity I am getting my moneys worth. If the first several OBW's go smooth then I have problem plopping down the 200 bucks for the big pack but for now $6o is more easily certain giving the what if's.

syberghost · February 2013

As has been stated in the other dozen identical threads, they haven't announced any cutoff dates for the packs yet, so feel free not to buy one yet if you don't feel you can make an informed decision based on the information currently available. More information will be forthcoming.

jasalpha · February 2013

The purchase of the Founders Packs is entirely a case by case, consumer by consumer point of view. For myself and my wife, who are in pretty much the same boat as far as disabilities and not being able to really go out much the choice was simple. We are what you might call "Old School" gamers. We played D&D from the first time the Big Red Box was marketed back in the late seventies to early eighties if i recall correctly. While we don't have a lot of money to throw around, to us it was worth the purchase because of the childhood nostalgia that it brought up. Is $200 a lot for a game that no one has really played yet? Yes. However, the fact that it is set in one of, if not the most popular setting of the D&D worlds is a huge factor for us.

The same could be said for getting a lifetime subscription to STO, which we did. These titles represent pleasant returns to our childhoods, and seeing as how it is not plausible to try and get a table-top D&D game going at our age, this is the next best thing. The fact that that $200 for Neverwinter and STO is the only amount we will ever have to pay, and that it was our choice to do so was just that, A personal choice. Each person much make their own choice to purchase the packs or not. A mount or companion, or what ever other little bobbles that might come with the packs should not be the deciding factor as to your purchase. Cryptic is producing a game and offering it to the public "Free of Charge". They made the game because a majority of the developers really enjoy D&D, and decided to share it with the rest of us in the form of an on line MMO. In a way (and forgive the old school reference) Cryptic decided to say "Hey, I'm running a D&D campaign. Do you guys want to play?"

My wife and I have our virtual dice and character sheets ready, happy to be able to once again immerse ourselves in what was a very fun childhood. That was our decision. Everyone else has to make their own decision, based on their own desires, finances or personal draw to the world Cryptic created for us to play in. Just remember this one Golden Rule. It's a game, and the purpose is to have fun. If the money that they ask for turns you off, ignore that part of it. If paying the $20, $60 or $200 is within your means and it's something you WANT to do, not because someone else TOLD you to do it, then do that. The point is, that for us, it is more like what an earlier poster said, It's a donation.

ruinedmirage · February 2013

Think of it more like a non-refundable Kickstarter program. You're helping the game and the devs get their feet on solid ground with the "donated" money.

zebular · February 2013

There was an analogy thrown out in a similar thread.. along the lines of when someone buys a ticket in advance for a band they love, they have no idea if their show is going to be a flop and know that they get no refund. I don't see how supporting a game title one loves in hopes the "show" will be great is any different. Same with renting movies or going to the movie theater . you don't know if this title you want to see is going to truly be any good until you have seen it yourself and by then, you already spent the money to see it.

drwarpeffect · February 2013

I would never deny anyone the right to do what they want with their money as consumers. I love D&D too. Of course I also look at how the company I might "donate" to is treating its fans. They have priced many of their fans out of the best pack. They have denied far more of their fans early access to the beta. They are selling expensive virtual items without adequate information, something that someone offering a product for sale, even a virtual one, is obligated to do (at least in my opinion and according to most business ethics textbooks I am aware of). I have tried on this forum to never denigrate those who want to buy the packs. My complaint is with how PWE is proceeding with the beta. This is not financial sour grapes on my part as I could afford to buy the $200 pack today if I was willing to buy a "roll the dice and pray" package and felt the value was there (which I do not). My more important claim for the company is that I think they are not putting their game in the best position to maximize profits and take full advantage of the great D&D storyline.

mokah · February 2013

zebular wrote: »

There was an analogy thrown out in a similar thread.. along the lines of when someone buys a ticket in advance for a band they love, they have no idea if their show is going to be a flop and know that they get no refund. I don't see how supporting a game title one loves in hopes the "show" will be great is any different. Same with renting movies or going to the movie theater . you don't know if this title you want to see is going to truly be any good until you have seen it yourself and by then, you already spent the money to see it.

In both instances of a concert or a movie, you have the right (at least in America) to get a refund. I get you're point, and I see no problems with people supporting the developer, it just would be nice (an good business) if software companies offered a way to get refunds for dissatisfied customers. With GW2, for example, they offered pre-purchase options that gave perks similar to the founder packs, but customers have full options for refunds through ANet and NCSoft if they aren't happy with the game.

drwarpeffect · February 2013

mokah: excellent point about refunds. Would really help.

oldskylancer · February 2013

I had no hesitation in plunking down my money for a Hero and a guardian. This game already contains two ingredients dear to my heart I have played D&D since 1979 a fan of almost all of its iterations, Cryptic created my first MMO CoH and I have fondest of memories of that game. Jack bought in Zeb Cook(D&D royalty) to work on City of Villains and talked about how he wanted it to be like Champions. I remember thinking then we had similar experiences coming up and he'd probably go for the D&D license. I quickly bought a lifetime membership and love the combat system of Champions online and think it was very faithful to the source material a PnP game I played after my introduction to D&D. I bought a lifetime sub to STO, it had one of the best starship combat systems I'd ever played and though I liked it a lot I don't play it. I go back from time to time to see what they're doing with it but that doesn't make me regret my lifetime subscrition. I still think they should have gone with player bridger crews. Now it's their turn with D&D I have no doubt that this will be a great game because the people creating it love the content. I only hope the source material isn't so overwhelming that it can't be molded into something we all love, gather and play for years to come.

neoyoshi · February 2013

jasalpha wrote: »

The purchase of the Founders Packs is entirely a case by case, consumer by consumer point of view. For myself and my wife, who are in pretty much the same boat as far as disabilities and not being able to really go out much the choice was simple. We are what you might call "Old School" gamers. We played D&D from the first time the Big Red Box was marketed back in the late seventies to early eighties if i recall correctly. While we don't have a lot of money to throw around, to us it was worth the purchase because of the childhood nostalgia that it brought up. Is $200 a lot for a game that no one has really played yet? Yes. However, the fact that it is set in one of, if not the most popular setting of the D&D worlds is a huge factor for us.

The same could be said for getting a lifetime subscription to STO, which we did. These titles represent pleasant returns to our childhoods, and seeing as how it is not plausible to try and get a table-top D&D game going at our age, this is the next best thing. The fact that that $200 for Neverwinter and STO is the only amount we will ever have to pay, and that it was our choice to do so was just that, A personal choice. Each person much make their own choice to purchase the packs or not. A mount or companion, or what ever other little bobbles that might come with the packs should not be the deciding factor as to your purchase. Cryptic is producing a game and offering it to the public "Free of Charge". They made the game because a majority of the developers really enjoy D&D, and decided to share it with the rest of us in the form of an on line MMO. In a way (and forgive the old school reference) Cryptic decided to say "Hey, I'm running a D&D campaign. Do you guys want to play?"

My wife and I have our virtual dice and character sheets ready, happy to be able to once again immerse ourselves in what was a very fun childhood. That was our decision. Everyone else has to make their own decision, based on their own desires, finances or personal draw to the world Cryptic created for us to play in. Just remember this one Golden Rule. It's a game, and the purpose is to have fun. If the money that they ask for turns you off, ignore that part of it. If paying the $20, $60 or $200 is within your means and it's something you WANT to do, not because someone else TOLD you to do it, then do that. The point is, that for us, it is more like what an earlier poster said, It's a donation.

I'm glad i read this post.

Well, hopefully they'll have this Campaign running for a good while, because right now i can not afford it, i could next month, but when these sort of things pop up, they usually aren't around for very long.

So i guess these sort of situations cause me a lot of anxiety for a couple reasons.

One, not knowing enough about the product.

Two, feeling like if i don't commit to it right away I'll be left out in the cold because again; -these types of promotions usually do not run for very long. (i like to think of these sorts of things like Collectors Editions, they are limited)

If someone could tell me it'll be around for a few months, then i wouldn't agonize about it.

iamtruthseeker · February 2013

Just wanted to thank the posters on this thread for their well, thought out viewpoints.

Ironicly what the OP and a few others posted here the others on the outside forums (and sometimes even here) are what they are also implying...with a lot more anger and drama to say it nicely.

Why are you spending the money on an unknown and what if you don't like it is a core thought by many.

I have no answers here as each one is up to the individual.

Personally, if I wasn't on a disability right now myself and had to pay for another upcoming annual subscription, I'd consider buying a pack. But I don't have that option. I have to wait for recovery and if I find employment later, and live within my means for now.

Value verse Quality. - Money verse the Video Game.

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