I do like the art, I think they are doing fantastic artistically speaking. The game looks amazing in nearly every regard! And maybe my criticism of large numbers is unwarranted. Is it just that they are showcasing level 50-60 characters who are fighting end game monsters? I mean the numbers are still too high for my liking, but maybe at the lower levels the numbers are much much more tamed.
Is there footage or dev commentary that suggests this could be the case?
It's like any other MMO. EQ you ran around whacking low level Orcs with 10hp, Sleeper had 2 Billion supposedly when he was finally taken down. Low level you hit for 1-10. high levels can hit for crazy numbers. 100K plus. It's just the nature of the MMO creep...mudflation. In this game I see low levels hitting for 100's due to the flexibility of the higher numbers, so that +1 sword will still be +1, but it will adjusted according to the formula being used behind the scenes...+1 could equate to +10 or something in the code.
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aesclealMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It's like any other MMO. EQ you ran around whacking low level Orcs with 10hp, Sleeper had 2 Billion supposedly when he was finally taken down. Low level you hit for 1-10. high levels can hit for crazy numbers. 100K plus. It's just the nature of the MMO creep...mudflation. In this game I see low levels hitting for 100's due to the flexibility of the higher numbers, so that +1 sword will still be +1, but it will adjusted according to the formula being used behind the scenes...+1 could equate to +10 or something in the code.
But by that logic, why not display as the +1 weapon would indicate, and adjust according to the formula and display the damage numbers appropriately lower?
I'm just saying, I think that by saying there is a formula that makes the numbers all adjusted UP, then why not keep them low, or if need be, "adjust" for the lower numbers. As mentioned in this thread already, lower numbers are easier for your brain to gather and sum up when going by fast on your screen. Larger numbers get more complicated. There is enough to think about in an action combat game already!
But by that logic, why not display as the +1 weapon would indicate, and adjust according to the formula and display the damage numbers appropriately lower?
I'm just saying, I think that by saying there is a formula that makes the numbers all adjusted UP, then why not keep them low, or if need be, "adjust" for the lower numbers. As mentioned in this thread already, lower numbers are easier for your brain to gather and sum up when going by fast on your screen. Larger numbers get more complicated. There is enough to think about in an action combat game already!
Larger numbers are not really complicated nor is the combat system. O.o They really dumb the game down by limiting skills you have access to get one given moment. Even though you can change them around, it limits your choices.
I'll be honest I know me and my friends were disappointed when we say 5,000 damage numbers pop up for Neverwinter. (A few lost interest on that alone sadly.) I know for most people it seems stupid, but we were hoping it was going to use 4E in terms of how damage was calculated. (Maybe we are in the vast minority, but I'm sure we weren't the only ones who felt this way.)
Now I know a lot of people keep saying: "But that's not what gamers want." Hmm, I'm not so sure about that statement. Yes many MMO's have high numbers and it seems like most MMO's replicate each other and don't want to change the formula. I really don't think high or low numbers really make much of an impact. For example Guild wars 2, Pokemon, Dragon Quest, DnD are various types of RPG's and all have been big games. None of these games use very large numbers. I know many people have preference one way or another, but I actually like the small numbers because I can keep track of what's going on. If 6,723 damage pops up, I dismiss it pretty quickly. I can't calculate those numbers, but if 9 damage pops up it's pretty easy to understand. (Which, I always thought was part of the fun.)
It seems like game designers could learn from the old KISS formula. I think keeping something simple is fun as long as it doesn't dumb down the substance.
Edit: I've read a bit of this thread and noticed a bit of talk saying PnP versus video games don't meld together. Was I the only person hear who liked NWN games? Now I know this isn't the same game, but I thought the system worked fine.
I'd hope they have the option of swapping the Damage dealt/Taken into the Actual numbers from the PnP game... That way if you want to see the normal/proper damage you can.
Just a thought
Diplomancy: Sometimes "I hit it with my Axe" is the only Answer.
A Challenge is something interesting and awkward until you beat it... then it's called "Repetative"
I'll be honest I know me and my friends were disappointed when we say 5,000 damage numbers pop up for Neverwinter. (A few lost interest on that alone sadly.) I know for most people it seems stupid, but we were hoping it was going to use 4E in terms of how damage was calculated. (Maybe we are in the vast minority, but I'm sure we weren't the only ones who felt this way.)
Now I know a lot of people keep saying: "But that's not what gamers want." Hmm, I'm not so sure about that statement. Yes many MMO's have high numbers and it seems like most MMO's replicate each other and don't want to change the formula. I really don't think high or low numbers really make much of an impact. For example Guild wars 2, Pokemon, Dragon Quest, DnD are various types of RPG's and all have been big games. None of these games use very large numbers. I know many people have preference one way or another, but I actually like the small numbers because I can keep track of what's going on. If 6,723 damage pops up, I dismiss it pretty quickly. I can't calculate those numbers, but if 9 damage pops up it's pretty easy to understand. (Which, I always thought was part of the fun.)
It seems like game designers could learn from the old KISS formula. I think keeping something simple is fun as long as it doesn't dumb down the substance.
Edit: I've read a bit of this thread and noticed a bit of talk saying PnP versus video games don't meld together. Was I the only person hear who liked NWN games? Now I know this isn't the same game, but I thought the system worked fine.
I fully expect this floating number method to remain unchanged. Its just too far down the pipeline to expect a core system change as long as it isn't reflecting the wrong numbers, modifiers, balanced spell effects, fatigue, racial defenses, attribute bonus, armor/hide enhancements and or additional phase of the moon/ potion bumps. I do agree on holding to the smaller numbers, at least within a D100 capacity though.
Something for the folks who want low HP mobs and low damage rolls, just like PnP, you should try an experiment next time you do aPnP game. Try getting 15 to 20 people to play in your next session, but do not make any adjustments to the stats of NPC's and mobs. Then see how fun and challenging your play is with that size of player group beating up on things. Now think of the MMO's out there where you regularly have crowds of players numbering from10 to a couple dozen beating on mobs and bosses. Just how long would the "fun" last, and how long would folks keep playing the game if all the mobs and bosses had low PnP game HP's? And yes, our damage is also jacked up in a MMO, but well size (and scale) matters. The bigger that the numbers on both attack and defense are, will then give you much more room to add in and adjust things as needed to balance things. Here's kind of a weird analogy, but I think it describes the situation well enough. Which would you rather be, a man in a small china shop with a bull lose, or a man in a huge warehouse with an elephant loose?
Something for the folks who want low HP mobs and low damage rolls, just like PnP, you should try an experiment next time you do aPnP game. Try getting 15 to 20 people to play in your next session, but do not make any adjustments to the stats of NPC's and mobs. Then see how fun and challenging your play is with that size of player group beating up on things. Now think of the MMO's out there where you regularly have crowds of players numbering from10 to a couple dozen beating on mobs and bosses. Just how long would the "fun" last, and how long would folks keep playing the game if all the mobs and bosses had low PnP game HP's? And yes, our damage is also jacked up in a MMO, but well size (and scale) matters. The bigger that the numbers on both attack and defense are, will then give you much more room to add in and adjust things as needed to balance things. Here's kind of a weird analogy, but I think it describes the situation well enough. Which would you rather be, a man in a small china shop with a bull lose, or a man in a huge warehouse with an elephant loose?
Why are you screaming? Your scaring my signature. Keep your voice down please.
Da kitties don't speak for me, deez kitties speak fur us all!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I'll Keep this up till beta goes live. I'll improve it soon.
The HP and levels of mobs are going to go up to reflect your average party level. If you fight a beholder at Lv1, it'll have low level HP. If you go to the exact same dungeon and exact same quest at Lv60, the same beholder will be significantly stronger (at least in terms of HP). I don't know how monsters will scale if your party consists of, say, two Lv1 GF, Lv35 CW, and a Lv60 TR, though.
Big numbers are purely for ego, in my opinion. Having smaller numbers just reminded me of a terrible experience I had at the grocery story today. This lady was standing at the register putting one piece of produce at a time onto the counter, and with each one, she would look at the checker's computer, put the SAME number into her calculator on her phone, then put the next piece of produce on the counter. What's the point of keeping track of smaller number when the game is already keeping track of damage and stuff for you?
I'm not particularly for or against big or small numbers in games. Sure, if I'm the DM and have to do the math personally, I like doing it quickly with small numbers rather than calculating thousands of points in my head. But all the player has to do is decide which button to spam, and fall back when they look weak. How much do you want to bet that there will be SOME significant change in status (either to players or enemies) when things look grim? It might be red numbers, flashing, shrinking HP bar, anything. But in an action MMORPG, I'll bet they're going to try and take the tedious part out for our convenience (the math).
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The HP and levels of mobs are going to go up to reflect your average party level. If you fight a beholder at Lv1, it'll have low level HP. If you go to the exact same dungeon and exact same quest at Lv60, the same beholder will be significantly stronger (at least in terms of HP). I don't know how monsters will scale if your party consists of, say, two Lv1 GF, Lv35 CW, and a Lv60 TR, though.
Big numbers are purely for ego, in my opinion. Having smaller numbers just reminded me of a terrible experience I had at the grocery story today. This lady was standing at the register putting one piece of produce at a time onto the counter, and with each one, she would look at the checker's computer, put the SAME number into her calculator on her phone, then put the next piece of produce on the counter. What's the point of keeping track of smaller number when the game is already keeping track of damage and stuff for you?
I'm not particularly for or against big or small numbers in games. Sure, if I'm the DM and have to do the math personally, I like doing it quickly with small numbers rather than calculating thousands of points in my head. But all the player has to do is decide which button to spam, and fall back when they look weak. How much do you want to bet that there will be SOME significant change in status (either to players or enemies) when things look grim? It might be red numbers, flashing, shrinking HP bar, anything. But in an action MMORPG, I'll bet they're going to try and take the tedious part out for our convenience (the math).
Indeed. So the moral of the story is: Don't checkout groceries with your smartphone! Wait...
Yeah, I played several games when you get close to death, the screen gets all red and/or dark. I wouldn't be surprised if this game used some variant of that as it's quite conditioned in gamer responses by now.
I actually hate floating numbers and texts. It takes away the immersion or the feeling that you are really in a fantasy world killing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and everything else. And I've seen some youtube videos, those numbers are too high. It's like cheating with the use of console.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I want to HAMSTER in Neverwinter, whenever I want, for as long as I want.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I actually hate floating numbers and texts. It takes away the immersion or the feeling that you are really in a fantasy world killing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and everything else. And I've seen some youtube videos, those numbers are too high. It's like cheating with the use of console.
Fortunately I know Cryptic effects and you all but certainly can disable those when we test it.
I actually hate floating numbers and texts. It takes away the immersion or the feeling that you are really in a fantasy world killing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and everything else. And I've seen some youtube videos, those numbers are too high. It's like cheating with the use of console.
True the numbers are way too high. This is D&D here he roll a dice for damage, There is no dice combination that give that numbers. Maybe with 100 dices:))))
i usually do not like to be negative but i dont like high number damage or the number art in this so far. I think it will be the first MMO where i turn it off.
Funny you should say that if Jack had his way you would not see the numbers...I loved that about CoH but too many people cried about it so it was changed.
Comments
It's like any other MMO. EQ you ran around whacking low level Orcs with 10hp, Sleeper had 2 Billion supposedly when he was finally taken down. Low level you hit for 1-10. high levels can hit for crazy numbers. 100K plus. It's just the nature of the MMO creep...mudflation. In this game I see low levels hitting for 100's due to the flexibility of the higher numbers, so that +1 sword will still be +1, but it will adjusted according to the formula being used behind the scenes...+1 could equate to +10 or something in the code.
But by that logic, why not display as the +1 weapon would indicate, and adjust according to the formula and display the damage numbers appropriately lower?
I'm just saying, I think that by saying there is a formula that makes the numbers all adjusted UP, then why not keep them low, or if need be, "adjust" for the lower numbers. As mentioned in this thread already, lower numbers are easier for your brain to gather and sum up when going by fast on your screen. Larger numbers get more complicated. There is enough to think about in an action combat game already!
Larger numbers are not really complicated nor is the combat system. O.o They really dumb the game down by limiting skills you have access to get one given moment. Even though you can change them around, it limits your choices.
*~Serixil Kor'hedron- Drow Trickster~*
Yep that's how I've been doing it for well on 25 yrs. now. The 2 10 sided die is old school
Now I know a lot of people keep saying: "But that's not what gamers want." Hmm, I'm not so sure about that statement. Yes many MMO's have high numbers and it seems like most MMO's replicate each other and don't want to change the formula. I really don't think high or low numbers really make much of an impact. For example Guild wars 2, Pokemon, Dragon Quest, DnD are various types of RPG's and all have been big games. None of these games use very large numbers. I know many people have preference one way or another, but I actually like the small numbers because I can keep track of what's going on. If 6,723 damage pops up, I dismiss it pretty quickly. I can't calculate those numbers, but if 9 damage pops up it's pretty easy to understand. (Which, I always thought was part of the fun.)
It seems like game designers could learn from the old KISS formula. I think keeping something simple is fun as long as it doesn't dumb down the substance.
Edit: I've read a bit of this thread and noticed a bit of talk saying PnP versus video games don't meld together. Was I the only person hear who liked NWN games? Now I know this isn't the same game, but I thought the system worked fine.
Just a thought
A Challenge is something interesting and awkward until you beat it... then it's called "Repetative"
Neverwinter on TVTropes(Needs some loving)
Neverwinter Nights on TVTropes
I fully expect this floating number method to remain unchanged. Its just too far down the pipeline to expect a core system change as long as it isn't reflecting the wrong numbers, modifiers, balanced spell effects, fatigue, racial defenses, attribute bonus, armor/hide enhancements and or additional phase of the moon/ potion bumps. I do agree on holding to the smaller numbers, at least within a D100 capacity though.
https://soundcloud.com/nathankilgore/i-wanna-see-you2
Otter ~~~~ on Beholder
Why are you screaming? Your scaring my signature. Keep your voice down please.
Big numbers are purely for ego, in my opinion. Having smaller numbers just reminded me of a terrible experience I had at the grocery story today. This lady was standing at the register putting one piece of produce at a time onto the counter, and with each one, she would look at the checker's computer, put the SAME number into her calculator on her phone, then put the next piece of produce on the counter. What's the point of keeping track of smaller number when the game is already keeping track of damage and stuff for you?
I'm not particularly for or against big or small numbers in games. Sure, if I'm the DM and have to do the math personally, I like doing it quickly with small numbers rather than calculating thousands of points in my head. But all the player has to do is decide which button to spam, and fall back when they look weak. How much do you want to bet that there will be SOME significant change in status (either to players or enemies) when things look grim? It might be red numbers, flashing, shrinking HP bar, anything. But in an action MMORPG, I'll bet they're going to try and take the tedious part out for our convenience (the math).
Indeed. So the moral of the story is: Don't checkout groceries with your smartphone! Wait...
Yeah, I played several games when you get close to death, the screen gets all red and/or dark. I wouldn't be surprised if this game used some variant of that as it's quite conditioned in gamer responses by now.
Or I could always go for [class] needs food, badly
I want to HAMSTER in Neverwinter, whenever I want, for as long as I want.
Fortunately I know Cryptic effects and you all but certainly can disable those when we test it.
True the numbers are way too high. This is D&D here he roll a dice for damage, There is no dice combination that give that numbers. Maybe with 100 dices:))))
Funny you should say that if Jack had his way you would not see the numbers...I loved that about CoH but too many people cried about it so it was changed.