I agree COMPLETLEY, if there isn't a ranger class then I really dont see much point to playing. I just wish they'd stop procrastinating and start actually MAKEING classes other than the four they have already. But if they make the ranger a support class and unnable to do anywhere near as much damage as the mage... There will be hell to be payed. I cannot STAND spellcasters
This feels like a case of people who cling to 3.5e wanting to see aspects brought into a game using totally different source material. IMO, there are plenty of classes for them to choose from already, we do not need to add classes not even in the source material to their work load. I would like to see them finish off the PHB over time, and then start polling the community as to what other 4e classes people want to see most.
Do not get me wrong, I loved the arcane archer in 3.5, I played one. I loved it in DDO as well. But in a game based on 4e it belongs in about as much as lightsabers and heat vision.
...Do not get me wrong, I loved the arcane archer in 3.5, I played one. I loved it in DDO as well. But in a game based on 4e it belongs in about as much as lightsabers and heat vision.
You can make a decent arcane archer in 4e using Euphonic bow bard, or there are a few more options. Nothing wrong with experimenting with 4e mechanics to simulate 3e - many players have PC which were AA, and got frozen in spellplague. They should not have to kill those characters but just change the story a little bit emulating their character.
Not implying that at all, if someone is converting a character from 3e to 4e in the PnP game there are tons of options on how to tweak the classes and make that work, and if you have a DM willing to work with you, you can do even better (as a 4e DM I can think of several allowances I would be willing to make that would not break the game to make something AA-like. I feel my job as a DM is to make sure the players are having fun and enjoying their characters, and if that is what someone wants to play, I will work with them to make it happen.)
That is all besides the point. The point is that in this game, NWO, a MMO based on 4e rules that is so far very limited to what classes will be included, there is not wiggle room to drastically change a class to something that it is not, especially when the class people are wanting to alter, the Ranger (or in Gillrmn's example, the Bard), is not even announced yet.
The rules for NWO online are based on 4e rules, but no matter how closely the rules resemble each other, PnP and a game like this will never mesh 100%.
There are no prestige classes in the Fourth Edition game. You can choose an optional "paragon class" at the paragon tier (11) and optional Epic Destiny path at level 21. That written there is no Arcane Archer in either. There are many options that allow you to have spells potentially cast (limited per day of course) ranged from an arrow or enhance attacks with spells, but not in one all-encompassing paragon/epic destiny path.
Yeah my hurt sank when i saw that Prestige class archetypes were removed in 4e, i really enjoyed them in the first Neverwinter nights game.
.........
I really miss NWN's right now.. haha, especially those online player-driven Modules. *sighs*
Yeah my hurt sank when i saw that Prestige class archetypes were removed in 4e, i really enjoyed them in the first Neverwinter nights game. ...
You know about Paragon Paths in 4e? They cover triple the ground a compared to prestige class with lesser pre-requisites.
For example - Silverstar (any arcane or divine class who worships Selune)
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shadowycanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
'Ehhh, hold on there, you two. :P Lets try not arguing over which version is better. 3.5 and 4e are good in their own ways.
Just saying, in case someone builds the escalator.
'Ehhh, hold on there, you two. :P Lets try not arguing over which version is better. 3.5 and 4e are good in their own ways.
Just saying, in case someone builds the escalator.
There is no argument. Just informing something the great artist might have overlooked.
Because almost all the PrE (prestige classes) can be defined as paragon paths.
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shadowycanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
There is no argument. Just informing something the great artist might have overlooked.
Because almost all the PrE (prestige classes) can be defined as paragon paths.
Oh, okay. Sorry. lol
Been around too many people that kept freaking out over 4e. :P
And I agree, you can emulate the Arcane Archer with a prestige class. Think the Euphonic Bow is about as magical an archer as you're gonna get in this game. lol
Given the game being rooted in 4E the odds of there being an actual "Arcane Archer" seem minimal.
To be blunt, as much as I like D&D in general the game has gotten more incompetant and simplified in design for a long time, sacrificing control, especially early on in a character's career, and concepts in favor of trying for a kind of game balance that is impossible to achieve.
To put it into perspective the game kind of "peaked" at a concept/options stage with 2E, the level of potential diversity among even the lowest level characters of each class was staggering when you got into the deeper rules. A samurai or bladesinger representing training and a lifestyle from an early age marking a character as fundementally differant from someone else was a kit you took at level 1, and influanced your development from then out. Of course this lead to a number of game balance issues because of course a basic unkitted character couldn't compete with one with kits and customization, and of course not all kits and options were created equal as you might expect. Not to mention that there were admittedly some game balance issues when a fighter might be able to make 3/1 attacks at first level with the right skills and abillities and drop 3 goblins or whatever in a round, which is not something most pre-made modules accounted for, which meant that module GMs that didn't have the time to create their own adventures occasionally had it rough, at least at the low levels (though at mid and higher levels it tended to be less of an issue, or entirely irrelevent).
3E tried to address these "problems" through Prestige Classes which characters earned. Meaning that beginning characters started out pretty generic, but then as they advanced could become more diverse by picking a prestige class. The results of this were mixed as it totally destroyed certain concepts (ie Samurai are born to nobility and trains to be from an early age, not something a peasant thug generally aspires to be and then achieves by whacking enough Tasloi upside the head). Also, to be honest, while kits in 2E tended to even out in the mid-higher levels, Prestige Classes tended to make an even bigger mess in the long run because like kits they were for obvious reasons not created equal, and being designed right from the get go for mid-high level play they oftentimes wound up carrying bigger abillities in the long term and could make an even bigger mess.
4E largely seems to be trying to mix it up a bit, to be honest I think it gives a bit more latitude at the lower levels and has some developments I think are okay, but it's Paragon Paths are now something it pushes up to the high levels, creating even more questions when it comes to concepts that should have been intristic to a character from the very beginning. Real personalization of your character takes longer than ever, and like previous not all paths are going to remain "equal" as more and more concept paths appear over the years and your going to be in the same position if you ever get to that point, the nature of the leveling involved in many cases ensures that gamers that prefer low-mid level games might not even see a lot of this stuff, and there is little point to it if it's something that's there, but wouldn't regularly be used. It's sort of like taking "Epic Level Campaigns" which was very divisive as a very concept since some GMs and players tend to scorn anyone who plays on that level as a brainless munchkin, and turning it into a core mechanic.
I'm speaking in a general sense here, do don't jump on me about specifics.
The point is that it's the same thing we've been seeing, following a very specific pattern. The only time D&D ever really "grew" was in terms of the 1E to 2E where the options and possible concepts really exploded for a while.
In general if you came up with 2E the removal of kits and development of Prestige Classes as very annoying to you and wrecked a lot of what you probably liked about the game. Some of your favorite character types like Bladesingers and such just weren't possible (or at least not like they were before). With 3E to 4E the same thing happened to 3E fans who are losing a lot of their favorite concepts like the "Arcane Archer" which a lot of people seem to like.
That said in the scope of an MMO the "Paragon Path" idea probably works a lot better than others, especially when your adding more levels than you generally advance through in D&D. Special archery in 4E might not be quite what a 3E fan wants, but at the same time 2E fans went through the same thing when you had very similar kits to the Arcane Archer along with the "Elven Archery" rules which could be quite fun.
If D&D survives to a 5E, whether it's computer games, MMOs, or PnP, grumbling 4E players will be going off about the loss of their favorite Paragon Paths. It's just how things work. Of course by then I imagine you'll have to ascend to divinity (shades of the old D&D: Immortals rules) and customize that way through your choice of spheres of influance or whatever... I mean with their trends it's kind of hard to try and push the serious choices up any further. 6E will probably be where only those who become equivilent to Cthulhu will be able to choose diverse paths of development (Tentecular Grasper path Vs. Insanity Projector for example).
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fergus1138Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited January 2013
I am very much in agreement! I've been playing a sneakmage type in a few different games lately, and I think this would be a welcome addition!
4e in pnp is much more diverse and makes much more sense in character customization.
Multiclassing in 3e is fake. You do not multiclass, you just take one level of wizard, then level that etc etc.
In 4e, there are two ways to mix a character.
Multiclassing means, you dabble with another class a bit (check my Lore thread in signature to know more)
However, true customization is Hybrid character - where you take two classes simultaneously when you level.
i.e. at lvl 3 multiclassing in 3e is not true as you will be 1 of something ans 2 of something. While in 4e you will be 3 of both - i.e. truly a mix of class.
Regarding character customization, if you go in pnp, 3e's character customization will not even come close to how much you can customize any class in 4e. Where 3e's customization ends, 4e's customization starts to catch pace.
However, the game is admittedly "based" on 4e. So it is not necessary that it implements everything from pnp.
Thier is a reason why people are abandoning the 4 e ruleset. Its also the reason pathfinder completely blew up and the CEO of wizards of the coast broke of with all the Game writers for DND to make their own game. Goblinworks has all the original DND devolpers from the last 30 years. the onlything WOTC have currently is the lore of FR's setting . I am very excited to try this game but 4 edition has ruined the classic feel of D&D IMHO. When you get to greedy with your IP you end up watering it down to spread it around until its no longer marketable to the audience that actually uses it.
Given the game being rooted in 4E the odds of there being an actual "Arcane Archer" seem minimal.
To be blunt, as much as I like D&D in general the game has gotten more incompetant and simplified in design for a long time, sacrificing control, especially early on in a character's career, and concepts in favor of trying for a kind of game balance that is impossible to achieve.
To put it into perspective the game kind of "peaked" at a concept/options stage with 2E, the level of potential diversity among even the lowest level characters of each class was staggering when you got into the deeper rules. A samurai or bladesinger representing training and a lifestyle from an early age marking a character as fundementally differant from someone else was a kit you took at level 1, and influanced your development from then out. Of course this lead to a number of game balance issues because of course a basic unkitted character couldn't compete with one with kits and customization, and of course not all kits and options were created equal as you might expect. Not to mention that there were admittedly some game balance issues when a fighter might be able to make 3/1 attacks at first level with the right skills and abillities and drop 3 goblins or whatever in a round, which is not something most pre-made modules accounted for, which meant that module GMs that didn't have the time to create their own adventures occasionally had it rough, at least at the low levels (though at mid and higher levels it tended to be less of an issue, or entirely irrelevent).
3E tried to address these "problems" through Prestige Classes which characters earned. Meaning that beginning characters started out pretty generic, but then as they advanced could become more diverse by picking a prestige class. The results of this were mixed as it totally destroyed certain concepts (ie Samurai are born to nobility and trains to be from an early age, not something a peasant thug generally aspires to be and then achieves by whacking enough Tasloi upside the head). Also, to be honest, while kits in 2E tended to even out in the mid-higher levels, Prestige Classes tended to make an even bigger mess in the long run because like kits they were for obvious reasons not created equal, and being designed right from the get go for mid-high level play they oftentimes wound up carrying bigger abillities in the long term and could make an even bigger mess.
4E largely seems to be trying to mix it up a bit, to be honest I think it gives a bit more latitude at the lower levels and has some developments I think are okay, but it's Paragon Paths are now something it pushes up to the high levels, creating even more questions when it comes to concepts that should have been intristic to a character from the very beginning. Real personalization of your character takes longer than ever, and like previous not all paths are going to remain "equal" as more and more concept paths appear over the years and your going to be in the same position if you ever get to that point, the nature of the leveling involved in many cases ensures that gamers that prefer low-mid level games might not even see a lot of this stuff, and there is little point to it if it's something that's there, but wouldn't regularly be used. It's sort of like taking "Epic Level Campaigns" which was very divisive as a very concept since some GMs and players tend to scorn anyone who plays on that level as a brainless munchkin, and turning it into a core mechanic.
I'm speaking in a general sense here, do don't jump on me about specifics.
The point is that it's the same thing we've been seeing, following a very specific pattern. The only time D&D ever really "grew" was in terms of the 1E to 2E where the options and possible concepts really exploded for a while.
In general if you came up with 2E the removal of kits and development of Prestige Classes as very annoying to you and wrecked a lot of what you probably liked about the game. Some of your favorite character types like Bladesingers and such just weren't possible (or at least not like they were before). With 3E to 4E the same thing happened to 3E fans who are losing a lot of their favorite concepts like the "Arcane Archer" which a lot of people seem to like.
That said in the scope of an MMO the "Paragon Path" idea probably works a lot better than others, especially when your adding more levels than you generally advance through in D&D. Special archery in 4E might not be quite what a 3E fan wants, but at the same time 2E fans went through the same thing when you had very similar kits to the Arcane Archer along with the "Elven Archery" rules which could be quite fun.
If D&D survives to a 5E, whether it's computer games, MMOs, or PnP, grumbling 4E players will be going off about the loss of their favorite Paragon Paths. It's just how things work. Of course by then I imagine you'll have to ascend to divinity (shades of the old D&D: Immortals rules) and customize that way through your choice of spheres of influance or whatever... I mean with their trends it's kind of hard to try and push the serious choices up any further. 6E will probably be where only those who become equivilent to Cthulhu will be able to choose diverse paths of development (Tentecular Grasper path Vs. Insanity Projector for example).
I do not believe DND will survive which is very sad FR's is they pinnacle of all game worlds i feel its lore and indepth world with all the books supporting it is hard to recreate and would take a generation to devolp. It's why your seeing most of the core of WOTC and the people responsible for creating it have left. Games like pathfinder ( though i do not play PNP anymore) seem to appeal to the true gamer, people are spitting out 4 E rules like it was bad shellfish. Its pretty sad theyare using this Ruleset and completely degenrates the game world they are trying to set it in, most of the prominet characters wont even exist now with total revamp and it has completey dumbed down caster play to the point this game looks like it will be Diablo 3 . Very very sad to see this IP done in such a manner its likely the death rattle of FR's i doubt salvatore will right anymore of this IP after this latest trilogy.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I do not believe DND will survive which is very sad FR's is they pinnacle of all game worlds i feel its lore and indepth world with all the books supporting it is hard to recreate and would take a generation to devolp. It's why your seeing most of the core of WOTC and the people responsible for creating it have left. Games like pathfinder ( though i do not play PNP anymore) seem to appeal to the true gamer, people are spitting out 4 E rules like it was bad shellfish. Its pretty sad theyare using this Ruleset and completely degenrates the game world they are trying to set it in, most of the prominet characters wont even exist now with total revamp and it has completey dumbed down caster play to the point this game looks like it will be Diablo 3 . Very very sad to see this IP done in such a manner its likely the death rattle of FR's i doubt salvatore will right anymore of this IP after this latest trilogy.
Thier is a reason why people are abandoning the 4 e ruleset. Its also the reason pathfinder completely blew up and the CEO of wizards of the coast broke of with all the Game writers for DND to make their own game. Goblinworks has all the original DND devolpers from the last 30 years. the onlything WOTC have currently is the lore of FR's setting . I am very excited to try this game but 4 edition has ruined the classic feel of D&D IMHO. When you get to greedy with your IP you end up watering it down to spread it around until its no longer marketable to the audience that actually uses it.
Okay, just this once, I will reply to an off topic with an off topic tangent of my own. Then we'll address the original topic of this thread since I knew this type of reply would resurface eventually. Consider this the link when I reference future people crying failure for the game/company/WotC etc. from now on. And if I turn out to be wrong. I can use the link to bring ths post up and add that I was. Never say I can't learn from my mistakes either.
Allow me to respond in kind as the DDO community did when this was predicted for the launch and later insolvency of DDO:
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
It's very important it be red and have 13 o's for some forgotten reason. Obviously the wave of people asking for your stuff won't happen.
But seriously, Wizards is testing D&D NEXT which is fifth edition and is planing for YEARS of testing (it hit its one year playtest January of this year.)
And a lot of the commentary you mentioned about the edition sounds a lot like echoed rather than experienced play. They also said and echoed for decades Disney was frozen and that was not true either. I can also attest to this being dragged kicking and screaming into 4th ed and found a lot of my preconceptions were just that. Even I fell to the hype.
But the fatal error that was made is the company pushed ahead on their vision without listening to the feedback from their players. This time they are gathering feedback and responses and revising it and retesting and redeploying it constantly. That I can say.
A financially doomed company could not market and plot both an open playtest for one to two years more both open known playtesting and even Alpha reviewing testing for beta test packet releases (which all I can say is I know it exists.)
And a lot of people who "left" are returning or working freelance for the NEXT product. I'm sorry for obvious reasons I can't give details at this time.
But it's not a sinking ship, that I can say.
But having played Diablo games, and even the Beta Path of Exile which IS a Diablo copy with a barter only system, I can say this game is not like a Diablo game. I did get to demo NWO a while back.
Since I like wizards the best I played that, and the casters are not "dumbed down" but don't go looking for a tab-target either.
And Salvatore is coming out with his FOURTH Neverwinter book this year and it even is locally being toured in my metropolis of Los Angeles in March. This March.
If the game somehow failed when PWE gave it tons of money a year+ ago (approximately November 2011) and kept giving more throughout 2012 due to its positive responses to its development, Salvatore could have stopped with his THIRD Neverwinter Novel and delayed the fourth one to a date of his choosing and polished it as his "finale."
To stick wih the original topic, the prestige classes are not in 4e, this is an MMO and will interpret the 4e rules to work as an MMO as "inspired" but still keep the FR lore, and paragon paths may closely mirror what the 3rd ed PrC did and those that mirror AA may or may not be introduced in the game.
I will ask that the topic be kept to the discussion on AA and its 4e equivalent and how it COULD be implemented on the game, and request any doom-saying on the game or the company or WotC be posted in it own topic. Not blocked, just not on this topic. If you want to make a thread mentioning how this game/company/WotC will fail, go ahead. But not on this specific thread's topic like that.
This is the "please get back on the original topic request." Melanderi did a lot of pruning last time people didn't comply, and nobody including her wants that to happen here either.
Okay, just this once, I will reply to an off topic with an off topic tangent of my own. Then we'll address the original topic of this thread since I knew this type of reply would resurface eventually. Consider this the link when I reference future people crying failure for the game/company/WotC etc. from now on. And if I turn out to be wrong. I can use the link to bring ths post up and add that I was. Never say I can't learn from my mistakes either.
Allow me to respond in kind as the DDO community did when this was predicted for the launch and later insolvency of DDO:
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
It's very important it be red and have 13 o's for some forgotten reason. Obviously the wave of people asking for your stuff won't happen.
But seriously, Wizards is testing D&D NEXT which is fifth edition and is planing for YEARS of testing (it hit its one year playtest January of this year.)
And a lot of the commentary you mentioned about the edition sounds a lot like echoed rather than experienced play. They also said and echoed for decades Disney was frozen and that was not true either. I can also attest to this being dragged kicking and screaming into 4th ed and found a lot of my preconceptions were just that. Even I fell to the hype.
But the fatal error that was made is the company pushed ahead on their vision without listening to the feedback from their players. This time they are gathering feedback and responses and revising it and retesting and redeploying it constantly. That I can say.
A financially doomed company could not market and plot both an open playtest for one to two years more both open known playtesting and even Alpha reviewing testing for beta test packet releases (which all I can say is I know it exists.)
And a lot of people who "left" are returning or working freelance for the NEXT product. I'm sorry for obvious reasons I can't give details at this time.
But it's not a sinking ship, that I can say.
But having played Diablo games, and even the Beta Path of Exile which IS a Diablo copy with a barter only system, I can say this game is not like a Diablo game. I did get to demo NWO a while back.
Since I like wizards the best I played that, and the casters are not "dumbed down" but don't go looking for a tab-target either.
And Salvatore is coming out with his FOURTH Neverwinter book this year and it even is locally being toured in my metropolis of Los Angeles in March. This March.
If the game somehow failed when PWE gave it tons of money a year+ ago (approximately November 2011) and kept giving more throughout 2012 due to its positive responses to its development, Salvatore could have stopped with his THIRD Neverwinter Novel and delayed the fourth one to a date of his choosing and polished it as his "finale."
To stick wih the original topic, the prestige classes are not in 4e, this is an MMO and will interpret the 4e rules to work as an MMO as "inspired" but still keep the FR lore, and paragon paths may closely mirror what the 3rd ed PrC did and those that mirror AA may or may not be introduced in the game.
I will ask that the topic be kept to the discussion on AA and its 4e equivalent and how it COULD be implemented on the game, and request any doom-saying on the game or the company or WotC be posted in it own topic. Not blocked, just not on this topic. If you want to make a thread mentioning how this game/company/WotC will fail, go ahead. But not on this specific thread's topic like that.
This is the "please get back on the original topic request." Melanderi did a lot of pruning last time people didn't comply, and nobody including her wants that to happen here either.
First everything ive staed was My own opinion. It's opinion based on gaming expierence as for your refrence to salvatore i have all four of the neverwinter series on Pre order with audible and i am well aware of the books coming forth. Salvatore is making a ton of money on this series not because of WOTC its because of Drizzt and his portrayl of Fr's setting . the success has nothing to do with 4E ruleset. that being said no i do not PNP any more ive looked at the 4 E rule set and matter of fact i just gave away my 3 E books that i used to build NWN 1 campaigns for reference.
I personally dont like the watering down of the 4E do i think DND will survive no,i do not think it will be played widely by tabletop people . no the adult audience that plays tabletop wont be satisfied with it.
Personaly i think we have seen a slide since seond edition. Will WOTC survive again in my opinion yes absloutely Forgotten realms is one of the best game worlds for PNP and PC gaming, But does it mean these products will be quality top notch stuff Gamers want that is a different story.
With that being said the reception this game is getting from magazines and reviewers is very and i still am excited to play .but i hold very little hope the FR's setting will grow and reclaim its dominace it once had in the PC game market for RPG's it was completely mismanaged. Go ask Bioware how the Stars IP worked for them, you cant rely on IP alone you need to be forward thinking . IF WOTC was smart they would have tried to partner with a company that was williing to go outside the box and shoot for a bit of sandbox chr devolpment and use a older ruleset
I will ask that the topic be kept to the discussion on AA and its 4e equivalent and how it COULD be implemented on the game, and request any doom-saying on the game or the company or WotC be posted in it own topic. Not blocked, just not on this topic. If you want to make a thread mentioning how this game/company/WotC will fail, go ahead. But not on this specific thread's topic like that.
This is the "please get back on the original topic request." Melanderi did a lot of pruning last time people didn't comply, and nobody including her wants that to happen here either.
Apologies I posted the commentary on edition changes that lead to that.
As far as the topic at hand, while the "Arcane Archer" itself couldn't be implemented anything close to what it was (ie magic user split class casting touch spells through arrows) what I've seen of the game engine so far does seem to show that something vaguely similar could be created. If you ignore any direct ties to 4E and it's mechanics what we publically know of the system (at will abillities, encounter abillities, daily abillities) being used for the MMO opens the potential for them to simply create a class where a bow using character could "pew pew" by having a selection of elemental aspected arrows mapped to his abillities. Say a shock arrow (descended from shocking grasp) on one mouse button and a chill arrow (descended from chill touch) on the other, and then working more powerful effects like AoE arrows into encounter or daily abillities. Truthfully though it does sound like it would be kind of redundant with just being a mage in the way things functioned.
In the editions where the Arcane Archer flourished mages could know literally dozens of spells per level, as opposed to 4E (and the MMO based on it) which condensed it heavily. The point of the AA was largely a gimmick to be able to deliver touch based spells at a range, which is something that a regular mage could not do (excepting a few spells that were specified as being able to act as a carrier and expand touch range), there being a few REALLY powerful spells that were limited by the fact that they required what was the squishiest character in D&D to get into melee distance. Using arrow delivery also meant that if you hit, you'd still be doing damage and contributing something, even if your spell otherwise failed due to magic resistance or saving throws.
As the original concept the AA probably couldn't function for a game like this, but as far as having an archer that fires all kinds of gimmicked arrows (magical or otherwise) that's quite doable, and I'd imagine that's what any bow-themed class they release is going to kind of look like anyway.
I'm really not sure on how good of an idea a Arcane Archer is, but It would be nice if the ranger had the ability too IMBUE arrows with spells... Like melfs acid arrow and stuff... Also the ability too specially craft quivers with spells would be nice. For example; (This is going with the mechanichs I on Neverwinter two)
Crafting bench + Quiver mold + (Whatever materials are in a quiver) + Fireball Casted on crafting bench + Crafting hammer (I forget what it was called) used on Crafting bench = Quiver of Fire Arrows (Imbues all arrows with fire damage (1-6) )
This is just an idea and assumes they add a crafting system. Or quivers.
This is just my opinion though, perfect world can probably do whatever the hell they want.
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bruddajokkaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 447Bounty Hunter
edited March 2013
A) Arcane Archer isn't a fourth edition class It was never it's own class but a Prestige class you got to by Multiclassing.
C) Fourth Edition basically killed Multiclassing.
D) Why the hell is this in the Rogue forum?
Comments
Five They announced Great Weapon Fighter.
You can always sit them out...
Do not get me wrong, I loved the arcane archer in 3.5, I played one. I loved it in DDO as well. But in a game based on 4e it belongs in about as much as lightsabers and heat vision.
You can make a decent arcane archer in 4e using Euphonic bow bard, or there are a few more options. Nothing wrong with experimenting with 4e mechanics to simulate 3e - many players have PC which were AA, and got frozen in spellplague. They should not have to kill those characters but just change the story a little bit emulating their character.
That is all besides the point. The point is that in this game, NWO, a MMO based on 4e rules that is so far very limited to what classes will be included, there is not wiggle room to drastically change a class to something that it is not, especially when the class people are wanting to alter, the Ranger (or in Gillrmn's example, the Bard), is not even announced yet.
The rules for NWO online are based on 4e rules, but no matter how closely the rules resemble each other, PnP and a game like this will never mesh 100%.
Yeah my hurt sank when i saw that Prestige class archetypes were removed in 4e, i really enjoyed them in the first Neverwinter nights game.
.........
I really miss NWN's right now.. haha, especially those online player-driven Modules. *sighs*
You know about Paragon Paths in 4e? They cover triple the ground a compared to prestige class with lesser pre-requisites.
For example - Silverstar (any arcane or divine class who worships Selune)
Just saying, in case someone builds the escalator.
There is no argument. Just informing something the great artist might have overlooked.
Because almost all the PrE (prestige classes) can be defined as paragon paths.
Been around too many people that kept freaking out over 4e. :P
And I agree, you can emulate the Arcane Archer with a prestige class. Think the Euphonic Bow is about as magical an archer as you're gonna get in this game. lol
To be blunt, as much as I like D&D in general the game has gotten more incompetant and simplified in design for a long time, sacrificing control, especially early on in a character's career, and concepts in favor of trying for a kind of game balance that is impossible to achieve.
To put it into perspective the game kind of "peaked" at a concept/options stage with 2E, the level of potential diversity among even the lowest level characters of each class was staggering when you got into the deeper rules. A samurai or bladesinger representing training and a lifestyle from an early age marking a character as fundementally differant from someone else was a kit you took at level 1, and influanced your development from then out. Of course this lead to a number of game balance issues because of course a basic unkitted character couldn't compete with one with kits and customization, and of course not all kits and options were created equal as you might expect. Not to mention that there were admittedly some game balance issues when a fighter might be able to make 3/1 attacks at first level with the right skills and abillities and drop 3 goblins or whatever in a round, which is not something most pre-made modules accounted for, which meant that module GMs that didn't have the time to create their own adventures occasionally had it rough, at least at the low levels (though at mid and higher levels it tended to be less of an issue, or entirely irrelevent).
3E tried to address these "problems" through Prestige Classes which characters earned. Meaning that beginning characters started out pretty generic, but then as they advanced could become more diverse by picking a prestige class. The results of this were mixed as it totally destroyed certain concepts (ie Samurai are born to nobility and trains to be from an early age, not something a peasant thug generally aspires to be and then achieves by whacking enough Tasloi upside the head). Also, to be honest, while kits in 2E tended to even out in the mid-higher levels, Prestige Classes tended to make an even bigger mess in the long run because like kits they were for obvious reasons not created equal, and being designed right from the get go for mid-high level play they oftentimes wound up carrying bigger abillities in the long term and could make an even bigger mess.
4E largely seems to be trying to mix it up a bit, to be honest I think it gives a bit more latitude at the lower levels and has some developments I think are okay, but it's Paragon Paths are now something it pushes up to the high levels, creating even more questions when it comes to concepts that should have been intristic to a character from the very beginning. Real personalization of your character takes longer than ever, and like previous not all paths are going to remain "equal" as more and more concept paths appear over the years and your going to be in the same position if you ever get to that point, the nature of the leveling involved in many cases ensures that gamers that prefer low-mid level games might not even see a lot of this stuff, and there is little point to it if it's something that's there, but wouldn't regularly be used. It's sort of like taking "Epic Level Campaigns" which was very divisive as a very concept since some GMs and players tend to scorn anyone who plays on that level as a brainless munchkin, and turning it into a core mechanic.
I'm speaking in a general sense here, do don't jump on me about specifics.
The point is that it's the same thing we've been seeing, following a very specific pattern. The only time D&D ever really "grew" was in terms of the 1E to 2E where the options and possible concepts really exploded for a while.
In general if you came up with 2E the removal of kits and development of Prestige Classes as very annoying to you and wrecked a lot of what you probably liked about the game. Some of your favorite character types like Bladesingers and such just weren't possible (or at least not like they were before). With 3E to 4E the same thing happened to 3E fans who are losing a lot of their favorite concepts like the "Arcane Archer" which a lot of people seem to like.
That said in the scope of an MMO the "Paragon Path" idea probably works a lot better than others, especially when your adding more levels than you generally advance through in D&D. Special archery in 4E might not be quite what a 3E fan wants, but at the same time 2E fans went through the same thing when you had very similar kits to the Arcane Archer along with the "Elven Archery" rules which could be quite fun.
If D&D survives to a 5E, whether it's computer games, MMOs, or PnP, grumbling 4E players will be going off about the loss of their favorite Paragon Paths. It's just how things work. Of course by then I imagine you'll have to ascend to divinity (shades of the old D&D: Immortals rules) and customize that way through your choice of spheres of influance or whatever... I mean with their trends it's kind of hard to try and push the serious choices up any further. 6E will probably be where only those who become equivilent to Cthulhu will be able to choose diverse paths of development (Tentecular Grasper path Vs. Insanity Projector for example).
4e in pnp is much more diverse and makes much more sense in character customization.
Multiclassing in 3e is fake. You do not multiclass, you just take one level of wizard, then level that etc etc.
In 4e, there are two ways to mix a character.
Multiclassing means, you dabble with another class a bit (check my Lore thread in signature to know more)
However, true customization is Hybrid character - where you take two classes simultaneously when you level.
i.e. at lvl 3 multiclassing in 3e is not true as you will be 1 of something ans 2 of something. While in 4e you will be 3 of both - i.e. truly a mix of class.
Regarding character customization, if you go in pnp, 3e's character customization will not even come close to how much you can customize any class in 4e. Where 3e's customization ends, 4e's customization starts to catch pace.
However, the game is admittedly "based" on 4e. So it is not necessary that it implements everything from pnp.
I do not believe DND will survive which is very sad FR's is they pinnacle of all game worlds i feel its lore and indepth world with all the books supporting it is hard to recreate and would take a generation to devolp. It's why your seeing most of the core of WOTC and the people responsible for creating it have left. Games like pathfinder ( though i do not play PNP anymore) seem to appeal to the true gamer, people are spitting out 4 E rules like it was bad shellfish. Its pretty sad theyare using this Ruleset and completely degenrates the game world they are trying to set it in, most of the prominet characters wont even exist now with total revamp and it has completey dumbed down caster play to the point this game looks like it will be Diablo 3 . Very very sad to see this IP done in such a manner its likely the death rattle of FR's i doubt salvatore will right anymore of this IP after this latest trilogy.
Okay, just this once, I will reply to an off topic with an off topic tangent of my own. Then we'll address the original topic of this thread since I knew this type of reply would resurface eventually. Consider this the link when I reference future people crying failure for the game/company/WotC etc. from now on. And if I turn out to be wrong. I can use the link to bring ths post up and add that I was. Never say I can't learn from my mistakes either.
Allow me to respond in kind as the DDO community did when this was predicted for the launch and later insolvency of DDO:
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
It's very important it be red and have 13 o's for some forgotten reason. Obviously the wave of people asking for your stuff won't happen.
But seriously, Wizards is testing D&D NEXT which is fifth edition and is planing for YEARS of testing (it hit its one year playtest January of this year.)
And a lot of the commentary you mentioned about the edition sounds a lot like echoed rather than experienced play. They also said and echoed for decades Disney was frozen and that was not true either. I can also attest to this being dragged kicking and screaming into 4th ed and found a lot of my preconceptions were just that. Even I fell to the hype.
But the fatal error that was made is the company pushed ahead on their vision without listening to the feedback from their players. This time they are gathering feedback and responses and revising it and retesting and redeploying it constantly. That I can say.
A financially doomed company could not market and plot both an open playtest for one to two years more both open known playtesting and even Alpha reviewing testing for beta test packet releases (which all I can say is I know it exists.)
And a lot of people who "left" are returning or working freelance for the NEXT product. I'm sorry for obvious reasons I can't give details at this time.
But it's not a sinking ship, that I can say.
But having played Diablo games, and even the Beta Path of Exile which IS a Diablo copy with a barter only system, I can say this game is not like a Diablo game. I did get to demo NWO a while back.
Since I like wizards the best I played that, and the casters are not "dumbed down" but don't go looking for a tab-target either.
And Salvatore is coming out with his FOURTH Neverwinter book this year and it even is locally being toured in my metropolis of Los Angeles in March. This March.
If the game somehow failed when PWE gave it tons of money a year+ ago (approximately November 2011) and kept giving more throughout 2012 due to its positive responses to its development, Salvatore could have stopped with his THIRD Neverwinter Novel and delayed the fourth one to a date of his choosing and polished it as his "finale."
But of course, how would he, Greenwood, Kemp, Evens, Byres, and Denning be able to collectively write a six book series if D&D were failing?
To stick wih the original topic, the prestige classes are not in 4e, this is an MMO and will interpret the 4e rules to work as an MMO as "inspired" but still keep the FR lore, and paragon paths may closely mirror what the 3rd ed PrC did and those that mirror AA may or may not be introduced in the game.
I will ask that the topic be kept to the discussion on AA and its 4e equivalent and how it COULD be implemented on the game, and request any doom-saying on the game or the company or WotC be posted in it own topic. Not blocked, just not on this topic. If you want to make a thread mentioning how this game/company/WotC will fail, go ahead. But not on this specific thread's topic like that.
This is the "please get back on the original topic request." Melanderi did a lot of pruning last time people didn't comply, and nobody including her wants that to happen here either.
First everything ive staed was My own opinion. It's opinion based on gaming expierence as for your refrence to salvatore i have all four of the neverwinter series on Pre order with audible and i am well aware of the books coming forth. Salvatore is making a ton of money on this series not because of WOTC its because of Drizzt and his portrayl of Fr's setting . the success has nothing to do with 4E ruleset. that being said no i do not PNP any more ive looked at the 4 E rule set and matter of fact i just gave away my 3 E books that i used to build NWN 1 campaigns for reference.
I personally dont like the watering down of the 4E do i think DND will survive no,i do not think it will be played widely by tabletop people . no the adult audience that plays tabletop wont be satisfied with it.
Personaly i think we have seen a slide since seond edition. Will WOTC survive again in my opinion yes absloutely Forgotten realms is one of the best game worlds for PNP and PC gaming, But does it mean these products will be quality top notch stuff Gamers want that is a different story.
With that being said the reception this game is getting from magazines and reviewers is very and i still am excited to play .but i hold very little hope the FR's setting will grow and reclaim its dominace it once had in the PC game market for RPG's it was completely mismanaged. Go ask Bioware how the Stars IP worked for them, you cant rely on IP alone you need to be forward thinking . IF WOTC was smart they would have tried to partner with a company that was williing to go outside the box and shoot for a bit of sandbox chr devolpment and use a older ruleset
Apologies I posted the commentary on edition changes that lead to that.
As far as the topic at hand, while the "Arcane Archer" itself couldn't be implemented anything close to what it was (ie magic user split class casting touch spells through arrows) what I've seen of the game engine so far does seem to show that something vaguely similar could be created. If you ignore any direct ties to 4E and it's mechanics what we publically know of the system (at will abillities, encounter abillities, daily abillities) being used for the MMO opens the potential for them to simply create a class where a bow using character could "pew pew" by having a selection of elemental aspected arrows mapped to his abillities. Say a shock arrow (descended from shocking grasp) on one mouse button and a chill arrow (descended from chill touch) on the other, and then working more powerful effects like AoE arrows into encounter or daily abillities. Truthfully though it does sound like it would be kind of redundant with just being a mage in the way things functioned.
In the editions where the Arcane Archer flourished mages could know literally dozens of spells per level, as opposed to 4E (and the MMO based on it) which condensed it heavily. The point of the AA was largely a gimmick to be able to deliver touch based spells at a range, which is something that a regular mage could not do (excepting a few spells that were specified as being able to act as a carrier and expand touch range), there being a few REALLY powerful spells that were limited by the fact that they required what was the squishiest character in D&D to get into melee distance. Using arrow delivery also meant that if you hit, you'd still be doing damage and contributing something, even if your spell otherwise failed due to magic resistance or saving throws.
As the original concept the AA probably couldn't function for a game like this, but as far as having an archer that fires all kinds of gimmicked arrows (magical or otherwise) that's quite doable, and I'd imagine that's what any bow-themed class they release is going to kind of look like anyway.
Crafting bench + Quiver mold + (Whatever materials are in a quiver) + Fireball Casted on crafting bench + Crafting hammer (I forget what it was called) used on Crafting bench = Quiver of Fire Arrows (Imbues all arrows with fire damage (1-6) )
This is just an idea and assumes they add a crafting system. Or quivers.
This is just my opinion though, perfect world can probably do whatever the hell they want.
C) Fourth Edition basically killed Multiclassing.
D) Why the hell is this in the Rogue forum?