PAX write-up over at MMORPG.com

needalox · September 2012

I figured I'd post this here. Its a good article with lots of information, but what really struck me was how much the author (Suzie Ford) was gushing over the game. And I saw a lot of excited people, including her, in the comments section as well. Good Stuff.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/634/feature/6692/Neverwinter-PAX-2012-Best-in-Show-Heres-Why.html

gillrmn · September 2012

What distresses me the most in that comment section is people trashing 4e and saying any game on 4e is useless without even actually knowing its strengths and weaknesses. The 4e bashing became 'too old of a joke' 3 years ago, but what is laughable is people quoting what will be strength of 4e as its weakness...
They should at least play it once before criticizing it, at least criticism would be logical...

aandrethegiant · September 2012

In order for the 4e bashing to stop, Cryptic needs to start discussing CHARACTER CUSTOMIZATION. By getting into character building, those of us excited about the game can more easily counter the now rampant "it sucks because its 4e" argument (which I warned would happen). The Foundry, as awesome as it is, does not help us debate 4e elements that will be included in Neverwinter, and offers no comfort to those who do not like 4e but were thinking of giving NW a go (whether they tried it or not, you still have to convince them to overlook their 4e beliefs to play Neverwinter).

The problem with these website reviews is that "interviewers" are not real reporters. They are so happy to get ANYTHING from game reps they are simply untrained and unprepared to ask the challenging questions the NW community and gaming world wants to know. Reviewers need to start asking different questions, and Cryptic needs to give them honest answers. This is still not happening. Cryptic has ended the summer as it began, on cruise control, soloing the PR quest.

Slow down the hate train TOMORROW by talking about character customization TODAY.

gillrmn · September 2012

aandrethegiant wrote: »

In order for the 4e bashing to stop, Cryptic needs to start discussing CHARACTER CUSTOMIZATION.
...

That is true, but they need to tread that part very carefully as they will have pre-made builds (right?). So that might come across as a very negative point to many D&D players.

They should be more liberal when talking about char customization, including (possibly false) promises regarding hybrid etc. to be implemented later after launch. That part will be trickiest of waters for NW staff.

stormdrag0n · September 2012

gillrmn wrote: »

That is true, but they need to tread that part very carefully as they will have pre-made builds (right?). So that might come across as a very negative point to many D&D players.

They should be more liberal when talking about char customization, including (possibly false) promises regarding hybrid etc. to be implemented later after launch. That part will be trickiest of waters for NW staff.

Yeah I have to agree with you on this Gillrmn....for good or ill it looks like pre-mades are the order of the day and it is going to cheese off people until they see how it's played out...like my friend said when he tried the game at Gamescom he was livid that it was pre-mades, but after playing the games and looking at how Cryptic was approaching it, it just didn't seem to matter all that much.

A lot of folks that here that and have not played will blow their stacks hearing that.....so Cryptic does need to tread lightly.

gillrmn · September 2012

stormdrag0n wrote: »

....for good or ill it looks like pre-mades are the order of the day and it is going to cheese off people until they see how it's played out...

For game balance sake, pre-made builds are fine, but they will have to advertise why they are fine too. Like telling people that 4e has hundreds of pre-made builds when combined with different paragons. They need to sugar-coat the blow.

Also a part of me still believes that allowing players to eventually make hybrids and completely customized characters should still be on their to-do list. Even with paragons and pre-made builds, the character progression is diverse enough than most MMOs but it will lag behind DDO. However, if they are able to allow multiclass eventually after phasing in various classes, there is no reason as to why the game won't surpass any D&D game so far.

aandrethegiant · September 2012

gillrmn wrote: »

For game balance sake, pre-made builds are fine, but they will have to advertise why they are fine too. Like telling people that 4e has hundreds of pre-made builds when combined with different paragons. They need to sugar-coat the blow.

Also a part of me still believes that allowing players to eventually make hybrids and completely customized characters should still be on their to-do list. Even with paragons and pre-made builds, the character progression is diverse enough than most MMOs but it will lag behind DDO. However, if they are able to allow multiclass eventually after phasing in various classes, there is no reason as to why the game won't surpass any D&D game so far.

As we found out from a recent poll, many would like to have both options available to them.

Pre-made builds make it easy for a new player to jump into the game without having to understand the complex D&D character build mechanics. When following a path, they shouldn't have to make their own choices at character creation nor when leveling-up, everything is done automatically. This is a great idea for those who'll no doubt benefit, but unfortunately will leave those of us that know how and/or would simply like the option to build our own characters high and dry, forcing us to play somebody else's fighter/wizard/rogue.

Tens of thousands of characters walking around with the exact same starter stats, with several different leveling choices would make me feel more like I was playing Candyland, not D&D.

I think it would make more sense for Cryptic to just be honest. Tell us what they have. If they really dont have any (or extremely limited) customization built into the character creation process, THEY need to know now that we will or wont tolerate it, so they can code the game to our liking, so they can make money

devoteoftempus · September 2012

People in general are turning around to Neverwinter. Now that some decent/stellar demos are provided and the Foundry is talked about people are getting enthused for Neverwinter. Ever since the first gameplay demos with the Devs people have been taking heed of Neverwinter.

Still, from skimming over the article there is still zero real news which I hoped some really tasty news would start be releasing. They are still being quite hush hush. There is still a lot of testing to be done as really hardly anything is known about the game. Like the Persistent World issue, last word from Cryptic was a big no and this might deter a potential pool of foundry users and some might view it as too limiting and then there, and the combat.

gillrmn · September 2012

aandrethegiant wrote: »

As we found out from a recent poll, many would like to have both options available to them.

Pre-made builds make it easy for a new player to jump into the game without having to understand the complex D&D character build mechanics. When following a path, they shouldn't have to make their own choices at character creation nor when leveling-up, everything is done automatically. This is a great idea for those who'll no doubt benefit, but unfortunately will leave those of us that know how and/or would simply like the option to build our own characters high and dry, forcing us to play somebody else's fighter/wizard/rogue.

Tens of thousands of characters walking around with the exact same starter stats, with several different leveling choices would make me feel more like I was playing Candyland, not D&D.

I think it would make more sense for Cryptic to just be honest. Tell us what they have. If they really dont have any (or extremely limited) customization built into the character creation process, THEY need to know now that we will or wont tolerate it, so they can code the game to our liking, so they can make money

It is very desirable that character customization is detailed especially the multiclasses(hybrid). Infact in 4e, multiclasses(actually called hybrid) is very balanced. Unlike 3.5e, you don't get all the initial feats of all the classes (like evasion after 2 lvls of rogue in DDO). Its more like, you choose two classes and you get initial feats equivalent to any other class. So I think even from the perspective of game balance, it is easier to do than 3.5e.

But the devs have also said in interview that even they wanted "Empty Character Sheet" like situation. But they faced limitations so they had to limit. Now the question comes, how much have they limited it? In case, the best option is not possible because of real world physics laws, I want to know what is being offered.

If there are only pre-made builds for now, I want a promise that we can customise our builds as time passes (like after 2 years they introduce open builds, or maybe 3 years even). I won't take anything less than 5000 possible combinations of classes over first two tears of game release if multiclassing is not going to be on their to-do list.

That said, I was actually pleased by introduction of background part in character creation as they showed before. I don't think DDO ever had that kind of background addition. Neither I think NWN series or any other had that on that scale. So I am not hoping to be disappointed by news.

gillrmn · September 2012

devoteoftempus wrote: »

People in general are turning around to Neverwinter. Now that some decent/stellar demos are provided and the Foundry is talked about people are getting enthused for Neverwinter. Ever since the first gameplay demos with the Devs people have been taking heed of Neverwinter.

Still, from skimming over the article there is still zero real news which I hoped some really tasty news would start be releasing. They are still being quite hush hush. There is still a lot of testing to be done as really hardly anything is known about the game. Like the Persistent World issue, last word from Cryptic was a big no and this might deter a potential pool of foundry users and some might view it as too limiting and then there, and the combat.

MMORPG crowd has been favourable to game ever since PAX(one before E3). So them being one of us, they have already been converted. I would be more concerned about other websites now...
Yes, but it does seems the devs are struggling too. Too many conferences past few weeks. The D&D one, then gamescon and now PAX. But this is last big one in september, they have to be active here. They should release at least beta date this time. Hoping for some new news, but lets see...

rendalyn · September 2012

stormdrag0n wrote: »

Yeah I have to agree with you on this Gillrmn....for good or ill it looks like pre-mades are the order of the day and it is going to cheese off people until they see how it's played out...like my friend said when he tried the game at Gamescom he was livid that it was pre-mades, but after playing the games and looking at how Cryptic was approaching it, it just didn't seem to matter all that much.

A lot of folks that here that and have not played will blow their stacks hearing that.....so Cryptic does need to tread lightly.

Already blowing my stack! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PmyYZqoGIw

iamtruthseeker · September 2012

There's so much here that falls into two diffeent parts, that's how I'm going to separate them.

Part One: The Review on things Foundry.

needalox wrote: »

I figured I'd post this here. Its a good article with lots of information, but what really struck me was how much the author (Suzie Ford) was gushing over the game. And I saw a lot of excited people, including her, in the comments section as well. Good Stuff.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/634/feature/6692/Neverwinter-PAX-2012-Best-in-Show-Heres-Why.html

gillrmn wrote: »

What distresses me the most in that comment section is people trashing 4e and saying any game on 4e is useless without even actually knowing its strengths and weaknesses. The 4e bashing became 'too old of a joke' 3 years ago, but what is laughable is people quoting what will be strength of 4e as its weakness...
They should at least play it once before criticizing it, at least criticism would be logical...

I don't care how much a reviewer loves or hates something, but lists details backing up their (in this case, her) claims.

And if we had to judge something by the flaming trolls/fanbois of comments, we'd never get anything done. I cannot emphasize the concept of read the comments and maybe even comment with them on the original location's site if you wish, but ignore them here when it comes to real discussion...assuming we're going to be mature about if of course.

I'll address the character customization later, but please remember this when reading to the responded quotes "lambasting" her for the failure to provide more:

While those who are looking for an all around review might be disappointed, those who remember that Cryptic is focusing on the Foundry for this period will be wonderfully surprised at her work. She even made it clear at the first sentence of her article why it won best of show for many reasons was the Foundry.

Neverwinter is the MMORPG.com Best of Show for PAX Prime 2012 for many reasons, most notably for its inclusion of the Foundry, a way for players to create custom content for a game that sits squarely on many people?s ?Most Anticipated? game list. There?s good reason for that too as we discovered during this past weekend?s show.

So, I'll break down why this is an excellent article, (but for Foundry informational purposes only.)

Suzie Ford lists the history of Neverwinter and its Aurora mod (world) creation toolset for historical understanding.

She then mentions she talked to Andy Vasquez about the Neverwinter (modern) toolset, (where she even admits:)

After gushing on in a very fangurlish way about how much the idea of being able to revisit Neverwinter again was such a great thing after somany [sic] years, we got in to the nitty gritty of the Foundry tools

She then clarifies the toolset is even more open and accessible to users than the previous Aurora toolset due to its power but ease of use:

The team wants to give the ability to create custom content to anyone with as few barriers to doing so as possible. At the same time, Cryptic wants to make sure experienced builders and those with a great passion for creating complex quests will also have the robust features that they want. Cryptic has scored a win on both points.

Next, she not only mentions the ease of custom quest accessibility (using the same game features for developer-written guests which show up exactly the same as user quests in the game,) she notes the "Spotlight" feature that rewards popular and well written modules by Cryptic to user mod writers. A new feature that allows us to select and follow our favorite autors in their auto-created Foundry blog is also highlighted:

What makes the system so intriguing is that it seamlessly embeds the new content straight into the larger Neverwinter game. Once a module is chosen, the quests it includes appear in the game as any Cryptic-created quest does. Quests and objectives appear in the tracker, the ?golden trail? appears just as it does for developer content, map points show up both on the mini map and the world map, quest giving NPCs exist in the main game world, the mission is tracked in the player?s lorebook and much more. In short, user generated content is given equal footing with developer-created content.
In addition to all of this, players of custom modules will be able to rate the content which, when enough positives are given, help the creator earn Foundry rewards in the form of custom forum effects and more. Players will also have the ability to check out their favorite creator?s content through his/her blog page and message the builder as well as donate building resources to them.
Foundry creators will have access to their own blog which will list all of the content they?ve created and player ratings of that content. Builders can give updates on projects they're working on, they can message users, add screenshots of their work and much more.

The ease of use (or the complexity they want) for new quest makers is restated next:

Once the Foundry creation tool is selected, players are taken to an interface that literally walks builders through the process. The UI shows builders what has been done and what still needs to be completed in order to get the content out the door. Helpful tooltips are included to move creators along in the process and I want to reiterate that everything, and I do mean everything, can be as simple or as complex as the builder wants it to be.

along with Andy demonstrating how a developed quest would work. The plethora of quest givers is mentioned showing anywhere in Neverwinter can be used for its denzians to give you said quest:

Almost all NPCs in the game are available to use as quest givers. Obviously, some are reserved exclusively for Cryptic?s use in the overarching game, but there are literally hundreds of others to choose from.

as well as having the quest itself be in the entire Sword Coast region whether you choose to use a pre-made map (customizable of course) or compose your own custom map completely from scratch:

When ready to choose the location for the quest, a map of the Sword Coast opens up and it?s as easy as clicking a spot on the map. If it?s not an already-named location, builders can fill in that information along with the accompanying lore behind it. Maps can either be completely customized or builders can choose from premade Cryptic maps that can be altered according to whim.

and noting the "auto populate items" feature which is one of the best highlights of the Foundry currently being tested that I have bolded, but she should have emphasized the click the button to fill the "room" part better:

Choosing the mobs, traps and other encounters for players to experience once arriving at the quest location is, again, as easy as drag-and-drop. But even better is the astonishing amount of customization that builders will have access to when placing mobs and setting out the ambiance of the area.
Let?s say, for instance, that a cave/mine system is the location of the quest. Cryptic has provided preset assets that match them. But choosing a preset doesn?t mean that builders are stuck with Cryptic?s choices. Even within presets, creators can resize, rotate, remove, or relocate everything. Nothing is ?set in stone?.

And the amazing customization of "monsters"/NPC's:

The same goes for the monsters. Builders can choose preset groups of monsters but then can customize them liberally. Want a set of house guards all wearing the same uniform or armor? You can do that and can niggle the details of what that armor looks like down to minute details. Want multiple types of monsters, each wearing something different? You bet! Want to give names to each monster? It can be done. In short, making the monster encounters completely unique is available and easy to accomplish.

Finally, even exploitation is brought up and explained succinctly:

One of the things we asked that we knew people would be concerned about was the potential for exploitation of the custom content. What, we asked, would stop builders from making a level 1 dungeon with level 20 rewards?
Fortunately, Cryptic will be maintaining control over the rewards and XP gained in the custom modules. Each creation is assigned a player level by the builder and rewards and/or gold earned will be assigned based on that level. It?s Cryptic's way to shut down exploitation of the system.

Having seen the multiple Foundry video interviews/walkthroughs, I can say that this in print wording does justice to what is shown in broadcast in regards to making a clear description. My other complaint (besides not emphasizing auto-populate better,) is she should have also had a video interview with Andy to highlight her take on the Foundry as well as ask questions while it was demonstrated (considering she published for MMORPG.com.)

In conclusion she addresses the Foundry so well, (including bringing up creation, area placement, rewards and exploits,) I included it linked in my New Users FAQ under the Foundry Section as a guide on what people might want to know on details. Considering I knocked listing an article that otherwise was linked by Cryptic's News section due to its failure to list said details (and called it a Forge which wasn't relevant since 2011 when this was co-op,) this states I'm looking for relevence and its purpose to where it belongs. it doesn't matter if somebody is called a fanboi or troll, but what they show.

Part Two: Character Creation and the Current State of Build "Customization."

aandrethegiant wrote: »

In order for the 4e bashing to stop, Cryptic needs to start discussing CHARACTER CUSTOMIZATION. By getting into character building, those of us excited about the game can more easily counter the now rampant "it sucks because its 4e" argument (which I warned would happen). The Foundry, as awesome as it is, does not help us debate 4e elements that will be included in Neverwinter, and offers no comfort to those who do not like 4e but were thinking of giving NW a go (whether they tried it or not, you still have to convince them to overlook their 4e beliefs to play Neverwinter).

The problem with these website reviews is that "interviewers" are not real reporters. They are so happy to get ANYTHING from game reps they are simply untrained and unprepared to ask the challenging questions the NW community and gaming world wants to know. Reviewers need to start asking different questions, and Cryptic needs to give them honest answers. This is still not happening. Cryptic has ended the summer as it began, on cruise control, soloing the PR quest.

Slow down the hate train TOMORROW by talking about character customization TODAY.

gillrmn wrote: »

That is true, but they need to tread that part very carefully as they will have pre-made builds (right?). So that might come across as a very negative point to many D&D players.

They should be more liberal when talking about char customization, including (possibly false) promises regarding hybrid etc. to be implemented later after launch. That part will be trickiest of waters for NW staff.

stormdrag0n wrote: »

Yeah I have to agree with you on this Gillrmn....for good or ill it looks like pre-mades are the order of the day and it is going to cheese off people until they see how it's played out...like my friend said when he tried the game at Gamescom he was livid that it was pre-mades, but after playing the games and looking at how Cryptic was approaching it, it just didn't seem to matter all that much.

A lot of folks that here that and have not played will blow their stacks hearing that.....so Cryptic does need to tread lightly.

gillrmn wrote: »

For game balance sake, pre-made builds are fine, but they will have to advertise why they are fine too. Like telling people that 4e has hundreds of pre-made builds when combined with different paragons. They need to sugar-coat the blow.

Also a part of me still believes that allowing players to eventually make hybrids and completely customized characters should still be on their to-do list. Even with paragons and pre-made builds, the character progression is diverse enough than most MMOs but it will lag behind DDO. However, if they are able to allow multiclass eventually after phasing in various classes, there is no reason as to why the game won't surpass any D&D game so far.

devoteoftempus wrote: »

People in general are turning around to Neverwinter. Now that some decent/stellar demos are provided and the Foundry is talked about people are getting enthused for Neverwinter. Ever since the first gameplay demos with the Devs people have been taking heed of Neverwinter.

Still, from skimming over the article there is still zero real news which I hoped some really tasty news would start be releasing. They are still being quite hush hush. There is still a lot of testing to be done as really hardly anything is known about the game. Like the Persistent World issue, last word from Cryptic was a big no and this might deter a potential pool of foundry users and some might view it as too limiting and then there, and the combat.

gillrmn wrote: »

It is very desirable that character customization is detailed especially the multiclasses(hybrid). Infact in 4e, multiclasses(actually called hybrid) is very balanced. Unlike 3.5e, you don't get all the initial feats of all the classes (like evasion after 2 lvls of rogue in DDO). Its more like, you choose two classes and you get initial feats equivalent to any other class. So I think even from the perspective of game balance, it is easier to do than 3.5e.

But the devs have also said in interview that even they wanted "Empty Character Sheet" like situation. But they faced limitations so they had to limit. Now the question comes, how much have they limited it? In case, the best option is not possible because of real world physics laws, I want to know what is being offered.

If there are only pre-made builds for now, I want a promise that we can customise our builds as time passes (like after 2 years they introduce open builds, or maybe 3 years even). I won't take anything less than 5000 possible combinations of classes over first two tears of game release if multiclassing is not going to be on their to-do list.

That said, I was actually pleased by introduction of background part in character creation as they showed before. I don't think DDO ever had that kind of background addition. Neither I think NWN series or any other had that on that scale. So I am not hoping to be disappointed by news.

Look, Neverwinter while has released some info on why the average MMO user may not get the ease of customization in creating a complex character (that only expert D&D people can manage in the PnP game which still takes hours at times anyway,) and has "builds" to this effect, they have not listed deatils either on what users can and cannot do. Saying that they have "succeeded" or "failed" in this, (as well as speculating on things like 4E multi class or Hybrid creation) is waaaay too early until we have concrete information from Cryptic or Cryptic walks reviewers through Character Creation on the level they have done so for Foundry or Game Combat.

In no way, is this discounting the fantastically amazing job we have pieced what has been shown in screen-shots and videos, but short of a demo setup walk-through (and emphasis on demo once again,) in Gamescom, we've never really seen anything on how the character creation works, and we're still in an Alpha phase, therefore the (few) people not working for Cryptic who have tested the Character creation process are currently sworn to secrecy on this process, which may be wiped and redone a few days later based on game-play and player feedback.

So, it's too early until we are told the character creation process is "more finalized," and even then when we transition to beta phases, we aren't necessarily "locked in stone" with those steps.

But until we actuall see those steps, we really can't comment on what is and isn't being done.

And finally, I know people want more and I do wish I could share more on the actual process of character creation, but that's all we can publicly get right now, and we all have to wait until we see more. All this written, I am asking Cryptic to consider shifting the emphasis from Foundry to shared character creation or at least listing an anticipated date (no timetables just a suggestion,) when character creation could be discussed.

gillrmn · September 2012

When marketing especially among non-speciality customers, facts are not that important as the hype. That is why I still say that character customization should be discussed
(even if in non-solid vague ways) so as to hook up new baits. They need to present it to non-D&D crowd the huge amount of options that are available while keeping in mind to appease D&D crowd.

Thus they need to highlight the following points if applicable:-
- How 4e builds are different than 3e
- How every class is not the same (*rolleyes* and other 4e fads)
- How each character will be different from other even with same build
- What future holds (Hybrids)

All this in generic non-pnp terms. And they need to create buzz-words. Foundry and active combat are not that hot now. An year ago, that alone would have created the buzz though. Now players are used to these things in other RPG games.

EDIT: Also in absence of information, there is speculation. Even if those comments section represents people who won't seriously discuss it all with facts, they are still the prospective gamers. May not be informed gamers but gamers nevertheless. So instead of letting them get astray by speculation which is obviously false, they should be given some 'insight' to what game can shape to be.

nimloh · September 2012

gillrmn,

Sorry for a thread derail, but I need to ask about your sig. Might it be the case that the parchment with the Draconic word "Raeuz" pertains to a possible upcoming Foundry quest?

gillrmn · September 2012

nimloh wrote: »

gillrmn,

Sorry for a thread derail, but I need to ask about your sig. Might it be the case that the parchment with the Draconic word "Raeuz" pertains to a possible upcoming Foundry quest?

No. Am just turning my foundry project characters into NPCs as I can't be sure their classes/paragons would be in game or no. Raeuz is just an ordinary character.
Though sending me PM from this link would have been better.

iamtruthseeker · September 2012

gillrmn wrote: »

No. Am just turning my foundry project characters into NPCs as I can't be sure their classes/paragons would be in game or no. Raeuz is just an ordinary character.
Though sending me PM from this link would have been better.

Well, people do want to know (me included) more on your characters, but we'll make sure to PM you from now on

PAX write-up over at MMORPG.com

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