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Epic Tier
aavarius1
Member Posts: 36
I'm curious as to what everybody thinks about the Epic Tier of play for Neverwinter.
First, I have no doubt at all that the development team is not even thinking about adding a whole new tier yet. Not until they make sure the two tiers they already are working on are right (if epic level play even happens at all in the future).
Second, I'm not talking about just a level cap increase. Epic tier constitutes a whole new paradigm shift for what D&D characters can do and what sorts of threats they face. It's "save the universe and then take your place as its master" kind of stuff.
My opinion? I could really live without Epic Tier play. I've read the Neverwinter Campaign Guide and in it are certainly lots of potential for ratcheting up to Paragon and potentially Epic Tiers, but then I start to question why Superman is still hanging around Metropolis when the rest of the world has dangers of their own. Maybe that's just me, but I like that things aren't yet projected to go further than Paragon Tier. I'd be happy if that never changed. I'd even be willing to argue that Epic Tier wasn't appropriate for the scope of this game. Maybe I'll be proven wrong in time when the game comes out or maybe one of you has a good counter argument?
I love Champions Online and I love Star Trek Online, but people often play their characters in CO very god-like from the start. (It is a game about super powered beings, after all.) What was Syndrome's thing? "...When everyone's super, no one will be," right? It's similar in STO where the game tops out at Vice Admiral. That's a really high rank, the kind that gets to make decisions that affect the lives of almost everybody in Starfleet, not just one ship of crewmen. And there are legions of Vice Admirals (myself included) flying around that game.
I'm not faulting any of those games. These are neat goals to earn in those games, but part of me really digs the verisimilitude of Neverwinter knowing that there are always going to be bigger fish out in the greater world (Elminster, Szass Tam, the shades of Netheril, the Abolethic Sovereignty, etc.) that the player base of Neverwinter just can't muster the power to stand against. I don't think anybody wants to play a weak character, but in my opinion it's more entertaining to play somebody that isn't at the top of the food chain.
I want to hear your thoughts on this. These are just some random musings I had.
First, I have no doubt at all that the development team is not even thinking about adding a whole new tier yet. Not until they make sure the two tiers they already are working on are right (if epic level play even happens at all in the future).
Second, I'm not talking about just a level cap increase. Epic tier constitutes a whole new paradigm shift for what D&D characters can do and what sorts of threats they face. It's "save the universe and then take your place as its master" kind of stuff.
My opinion? I could really live without Epic Tier play. I've read the Neverwinter Campaign Guide and in it are certainly lots of potential for ratcheting up to Paragon and potentially Epic Tiers, but then I start to question why Superman is still hanging around Metropolis when the rest of the world has dangers of their own. Maybe that's just me, but I like that things aren't yet projected to go further than Paragon Tier. I'd be happy if that never changed. I'd even be willing to argue that Epic Tier wasn't appropriate for the scope of this game. Maybe I'll be proven wrong in time when the game comes out or maybe one of you has a good counter argument?
I love Champions Online and I love Star Trek Online, but people often play their characters in CO very god-like from the start. (It is a game about super powered beings, after all.) What was Syndrome's thing? "...When everyone's super, no one will be," right? It's similar in STO where the game tops out at Vice Admiral. That's a really high rank, the kind that gets to make decisions that affect the lives of almost everybody in Starfleet, not just one ship of crewmen. And there are legions of Vice Admirals (myself included) flying around that game.
I'm not faulting any of those games. These are neat goals to earn in those games, but part of me really digs the verisimilitude of Neverwinter knowing that there are always going to be bigger fish out in the greater world (Elminster, Szass Tam, the shades of Netheril, the Abolethic Sovereignty, etc.) that the player base of Neverwinter just can't muster the power to stand against. I don't think anybody wants to play a weak character, but in my opinion it's more entertaining to play somebody that isn't at the top of the food chain.
I want to hear your thoughts on this. These are just some random musings I had.
Post edited by aavarius1 on
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However, I'm not going to worry about it, and let Cryptic polish up and optimize the Heroic and Paragon tiers before and after the game's release, and when ready, start taking player/customer feedback on the feasibility of Epic tier play and where it should take place for Forgotten Realms/Faerum-based characters.
Still, since we're talking about the epic tier I would like to take this opportunity and ask a question: how to make it special? New powers, better stuff - that's all very nice, but "epic" is so much more. There should be some considerable shift in the mechanics or plot. Something that is not available for previous tiers. In DnD it's quite often some kind of self-resurrection and such, but in Neverwinter... well, I still need to think about it :P
*may or maynot be a spoiler*
What I believe should be in epic tier is only the story about defeating neverember and taking control of neverwinter and defending it from neverember and his evil allies, using our own allies. In the end neverwinter will be ruled by the council of ministers who were actually adventurers (lvl 90) who saved neverwinter from neverember threat.
*possible spoiler end*
I actually kind of hate when it gets to that level. I think locally. Not globally. I don't want him pulling a god of war.
Please no!!! The god are delicate beings, they might die... I can't take moar god deaths!!!
I don't mind what Cryptic does about expanded high level content, but my preference would be for launching new level 1 - 60 campaigns. I'd like Cryptic to expand the game world and launch new stories, all of which would have some tie to Neverwinter even if it is just to start there.
But this does raise challenges and Cryptic will want more then D&D fans to play the game.
Sooooooooo "seconded" for Sigil!
That being said, I know there are people out there that love epic level play.
If its playable in an MMO well i think it is, i know epic tier is all about going to other planes, missions gived by gods againts other gods, etc... I understand that people who pay more attention to the lore might not like the idea of fighting gods but maybe if epic destinies are implement and we eventually need to "deafeat" a god maybe that campaign should change the forgotten realms lore it self, wouldnt be great if players was able to change world of fearun ??
Since cryptic and wotc work closly maybe even future wotc neverwinter campaigns can change according what players did on neverwinter online.
Look, one of those buggers woke up on the wrong side of the bed and it destroyed Neverwinter by accident. I don't want twenty-man raids aimed at putting him back to sleep. Give me epic fantasy, but not epic ridiculousness.
We didnt speak about raids, there is wotc official epic campaings in pnp that leads u to fight gods and they are still meant to be played with 4-6 players.
And yes, i dont like to see raids in this game aswell and we have sure that at release they are not in neverwinter
I suppose I should clarify what I mean by raids. That's a miscommunication on my part. What I mean to talk about is the kinds of world threatening, god-like opponents that raids (or whatever you want to call them) tend to be focused around, not the actual mechanic of 20-player fights (or insert whatever number you wish). That kind of foe the players could actually take down even with help, from my perspective, would be undesirable. I have nothing against tough threats that require large or small groups of players in and of themselves.
Of course, when this game comes out I could likely find out I really want to reverse my opinion on all this, but for now I'm sticking to my guns.
Just read this thread again.
+1 for sigil!!!
It is the natural progression of game. And I would like to base my missions in nine hells plane.
EDIT: Watch out for Lady of Pain while using sigil. Do not... I repeat... DO not OFFER TO BUY HER A DRINK.
Forgotten Realms, even in the Arcane Age, has been known to have Spelljammer Ports through out the World. With Planescape being an integral part of any D&D Campaign, it would only be logical to one day have Neverwinter also incorporate Spelljammer and Planescape related material. Ravenloft is likewise just as connected. I think expanding into these campaigns would be a neat route for far-future game expansions.
Although, I'd rather see the whole of Abeir-Toril expanded into first, as there is still Al-Quadim on this same continent that Faerun is in, as well as the Jungles of Chult and Kara-Tur. The Shining South is also something of consideration, with its strong ties to Netheril. Oh, and not to forget the whole of The Underdark, that spans the entire globe. Even the new reincarnation of Evermeet is something of a worthy note in this relation.
With this being a Forgotten Realms based game, there are a ton of grand possibilities that make the future for expansions almost limitless. With that in mind, this silly notion and worry of "end-game" is something not of any concern of mine. Indeed.
The Forgotten Realms, with all I have stated in mind, could not be any more perfect of a Campaign Setting for an MMO, if done right.
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I look forward to the expansion of many gaming worlds if we should have the honor of Epic play.
This is so true.
In Dark Age, you fought against two other realms in open siege for control of keeps and the chance to delve into a secret dungeon.
This scenario has no end, ever. And the same can almost be said for Guild Wars as well, but these are also PvP Oriented games for the most part.
WoW has had -many- end-game designs. Ragnarok, Nefarius, Ilidan, Arthus, Deathwing... who knows who the Panda boss will be, but the game keeps evolving.
If we place WoW into the Dungeons and Dragons theme I don't think that the level 80 heroes are even level 18 yet, by comparison. Sure their feats are amazing, but look at what they have left ahead of them.
Let's also look at the many many fiction novels wrote in the Forgotten Realms setting and think back on how many characters 'actually' fought gods, or became them. Not very many.
Obviously the ultimate endgame for any one character is never the same as another. If you're roleplaying for instance (which DnD and NwN have been roleplaying games since forever.) a paladin whose only goal in life is to serve Tyr and possibly save any soul he can from becoming one with the Wall of the Faithless (due to seeing a vision of his sister in the wall ((who has been dead for some time now))). His endgame is endless, his quest for the salvation of others only ceases when he dies.
Now we take a spry wizard as another example. In all my years of roleplaying every Wizard strives to become more powerful (or at least more knowledgeable) , which is normally why they become wizards in the first place. So the longer they live the more time they have to gather all that knowledge so most of them become liches, or some form of crazed undead, or trapped in some awesomely simulacrumed time spell locked away in some astral pocket plane to study and test.
I believe that in this game it's going to be saving Neverwinter over and over again, until they possibly expand the world where we can go into the Underdark or fully explore the Anourach Desert, or the floating aircraft of Halruua. Have you ever looked at a map of the Forgotten Realms? It's -huge-... from Lantan to Dambrath to Icewind Dale to Thay... the things they could do with all the content they already have laid out before them is -insane-.
I'm not going to worry about the endgame, because there theoretically isn't one. Or there shouldn't be.
PvP is going to be great, I have no worries there either... maybe in need of a tad of balancing but that can be said about every game with PvPvE(M) implementation.
I'm more excited about what they're going to put into the game. Evil Djinn and Liches, Corrupted Demons Devils and Demi-Gods.
Also keep in mind that it isn't always the pointy end of a sword or arrow that wins battles in DnD, you can say the right things to a person or creature of great prowess or import and come out shiny.