Because I don't see it inspiring the same level of dedication real tools inspire ... and I'm not interested in short missions filled with prefabs someone knocked up over the weekend to run through with mates.
A real solid chunk of content takes so much time that constricted tools will drive developers away ... if you want to court the people who make the really good content you have to treat them like developers, not players. Doesn't mean the tools shouldn't have a low barrier of entry, NWN2 proved that ... but if the tools provide depth the community developers can do things you didn't imagine possible, NWN1 proved that.
The lack of depth in Foundry is palpable, in fact it's a basic property of it's design intent ... Cryptic doesn't want to be surprised what people can do with it, it wants to be in complete control.
The lack of depth in Foundry is palpable, in fact it's a basic property of it's design intent ... Cryptic doesn't want to be surprised what people can do with it, it wants to be in complete control.
We have not even seen the foundry or had anyone give a review on what the foundry can do other than what cryptic did at E3. So where do you get the information that the lack of depth in the Foundry is palpable when you have not even seen it or know anyone that has used it.
This is the kind of negative post that we do not need now. Baseless claims on unprove assumptions just to stir up people.
We have not even seen the foundry or had anyone give a review on what the foundry can do other than what cryptic did at E3. So where do you get the information that the lack of depth in the Foundry is palpable when you have not even seen it or know anyone that has used it.
This is the kind of negative post that we do not need now. Baseless claims on unprove assumptions just to stir up people.
they have stated you can have user created content like hak paks, you cant create a huge branching campaing, you cant create PW. you cant create items, you can create creatures.
As people said before, part of the negativity comes from people being heavily with CO and STO.
If Cryptic would have announced Neverwinter to be an MMO, then I would have been very sceptical myself as personally I think only CoH/CoV was a good MMO they made (sorry Cryptic).
Now a Co-Op RPG and a Foundry system (that's hopefully even better than the STO one) could mean that Cryptic is finally getting back on track and that we could see a good game here. I'll keep an eye on Neverwinter for sure.
Now a Co-Op RPG and a Foundry system (that's hopefully even better than the STO one) ...
I know on the STO side of things they've said that the NW Foundry has a lot of improvements that'll be making it back into the STO codebase in coming months so it definately is an improvement over the existing STO version of the Foundry.
I know on the STO side of things they've said that the NW Foundry has a lot of improvements that'll be making it back into the STO codebase in coming months so it definately is an improvement over the existing STO version of the Foundry.
i think the main improvement over STO is going to be able to custom made interiors with tiles instead of being stuck with prefabs.
they have stated you can have user created content like hak paks, you cant create a huge branching campaing, you cant create PW. you cant create items, you can create creatures.
They also stated this is not NWN3 its Neverwinter online. I want PW's based on areas in FR not some fantasy world where everyone is a dragon. Personally I do not want user created items or monsters to much to abuse for friends and to many people will include trojans and such in stuff we have to download.
Instead of saying OOOoooo the foundry is horrible and its going to fail Give thought out reasons why PW's user created content and monsters and races will help. Saying its really cool in NWN1 and 2 doesnt cut it. Explain how it will help an online game based in and around the city of Neverwinter what benifit cryptic will get from this. Saying that the NWN1 and 2 people will come here is not enough because they already will come here for the most part.
they have stated you can have user created content like hak paks, you cant create a huge branching campaing, you cant create PW. you cant create items, you can create creatures.
I don't know about creatures, at least at launch. Might be able to change some creatures attributes and rename it though. Specifically you can't create your own model and textures.
Sounds like they may have more base creatures though and may be open to requests. NWN1&2 shipped with the creatures needed to fill out the Single Player campaigns. Neverwinter is focused on providing the Foundry, I expect more support for creating creatures for you that you want to have.
The hak paks btw, contain these models and textures, as well as the 2das to index them and describe feats, classes, spells, etc. So I'd change your stated "they have stated you can have user created content like hak paks" to can't. That may be a confusion on how the NWNs work. You can create something like the .mod file aka module.
As far as branching campaigns, that would likely only really need a token on you that the dev could store data on, which could be accessed by subsequent modules. They might be open to that.
As far as on topic though: Sounds like from what I've seen Cryptic has a plan but want to keep agile and responsive. They have an open mind and a positive attitude. How about we do the same, eh?
i think the main improvement over STO is going to be able to custom made interiors with tiles instead of being stuck with prefabs.
One example quoted from the STO site...
Long term, we plan to synch up with all the amazing Foundry work being done by the Neverwinter team and bring those new features over to STO to improve the toolset features. One thing I continue to stress is adding the ability for more "acting" and "blocking" features so that players can create their own dramatic scenes.
Believe there has been other functional improvements mentioned on the forums that NW has that are in the pipeline for STO but I can't find the specific posts right now (house-sitting and I could swear this computer is still on dial-up it is so amazingly slow).
they have stated you can have user created content like hak paks, you cant create a huge branching campaing, you cant create PW. you cant create items, you can create creatures.
Careful what word(s) you use. Until the mods learn a little bit about the differences between concept, system, and execution (spanning the different games) any word you use can roll out the lynch mob.
The DM in Neverwinter will be some kind of "adventure designer" or "builder" if you will. So your normal perception of what a DM is, is a little bit out the window here. Think computer games and how a "DM" will actually work in this game.
Not saying this is bad. I like the idea of understanding that a DM in D&D computer game is a different thing than a DM in a pen and paper adventure.
We have not even seen the foundry or had anyone give a review on what the foundry can do other than what cryptic did at E3. So where do you get the information that the lack of depth in the Foundry is palpable when you have not even seen it or know anyone that has used it.
A scripting language is the minimal necessary tool to do anything of consequence IMO.
A scripting language is the minimal necessary tool to do anything of consequence IMO.
While it isn't for me.
Scripting in this kind of tool for me only feel like when the developers didn't have enough time to map out all the functions in nifty menues and other.
The thing about NWN even though it lacked many oftenly used menues was that you could script and also that scripting gave you access to anything in the game that wasn't more "hardcoded". Which is...yes quite powerful. Still if there wasn't developed "script generators" which bring some kind of menu system into that I would be very handfallen myself hehe.
Anyway...to get to the point. It feels that what you are really talking about here is not about scripting system or not but if we can change fundamentals of the game...like game rules and many other things.
As we all are going to be playing in one world there HAS to be some restricting rules to how to build your adventure.
Scripting in this kind of tool for me only feel like when the developers didn't have enough time to map out all the functions in nifty menues and other.
See that's what I'm talking about ... you have the same constricted view point as them, you want to oversee all the possibilities beforehand ... I want the infinite possibilities a programming language supplies (even if slightly restricted by storage, computational limits and hooks into the game client/server).
Anyway...to get to the point. It feels that what you are really talking about here is not about scripting system or not but if we can change fundamentals of the game...like game rules and many other things.
I wouldn't mind if the moment loot/XP granting entered into it all player scripting got turned off to make abuse impossible.
I just want things like cross mission persistent per player data, so you could grant players loot (and a history of events) which is only available inside your missions ... that way you could create a CRPG campaign out of separate missions.
It would be even nicer if there was a DM client to guide players through those campaign missions, I wouldn't care if that just disallowed all loot to carry over to the regular game and granted no XP. It would still be infinitely more interesting, both for groups of community developers AND players, than mission #<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> with no persistence of consequences other than some random loot and XP ...
A mission lasts a couple of hours at most ... if that's the only scope within a player can create then it would be like one shots every week in PnP, it won't have long lasting appeal.
See that's what I'm talking about ... you have the same constricted view point as them, you want to oversee all the possibilities beforehand ... I want the infinite possibilities a programming language supplies (even if slightly restricted by storage, computational limits and hooks into the game client/server)..
Again, you are concentrating on the scripting. This is not really what is interesting and what you want. What you want is more freedom in what you can do with the design...whether it is scripting or not.
I don't know how to explain this in a good way.
It is like saying that the DOS operating system is more powerful than the WIndows 7 because in DOS you have to write (eg "script") in the commands. It is not. It is just that in Windows 7 they have taken most of the commands that you had to script before and put them in a "button" in a menu somewhere.
I wouldn't mind if the moment loot/XP granting entered into it all player scripting got turned off to make abuse impossible.
....
I just want things like cross mission persistent per player data, so you could grant players loot (and a history of events) which is only available inside your missions ... that way you could create a CRPG campaign out of separate missions.
Hmm...so you are talking about some kind of no loot/no XP adventure. I hear you on this. I am not against it. Still, I think most wouldn't play such adventures but some maybe would...
It would be even nicer if there was a DM client to guide players through those campaign missions, I wouldn't care if that just disallowed all loot to carry over to the regular game and granted no XP. It would still be infinitely more interesting, both for groups of community developers AND players, than mission #<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> with no persistence of consequences other than some random loot and XP ....
My answer is similar to the above. Although "cute" this will turn into some kind of "chat only" adventure.
It is like saying that the DOS operating system is more powerful than the WIndows 7 because in DOS you have to write (eg "script") in the commands. It is not. It is just that in Windows 7 they have taken most of the commands that you had to script before and put them in a "button" in a menu somewhere.
Microsoft recognizes they can't foresee everything their users will want to do.
Hmm...so you are talking about some kind of no loot/no XP adventure. I hear you on this. I am not against it. Still, I think most wouldn't play such adventures but some maybe would...
Loot and XP from Foundry missions are ultimately meaningless ...
There are two options :
- The game will have end game dailies and raids, loot from foundry missions will not be comparable so irrelevant ... XP is irrelevant in end game altogether.
- The game won't have end game dailies and raids, progression is irrelevant ... you'll be rerolling every couple of months any way, after doing this once or twice the carrot and stick routine will lose it's luster.
My answer is similar to the above. Although "cute" this will turn into some kind of "chat only" adventure.
It's great to see that it will be better than the STO one and I guess STO players will be happy ifthey get the Neverwinter features at some point in the future.
- The game will have end game dailies and raids, loot from foundry missions will not be comparable so irrelevant ... XP is irrelevant in end game altogether.
- The game won't have end game dailies and raids, progression is irrelevant ... you'll be rerolling every couple of months any way, after doing this once or twice the carrot and stick routine will lose it's luster.
Hm. I think you and I have very different mindsets when it comes to gameplay. And while there's no telling for sure until I actually play the game, I can definitely see myself playing a level-capped character with all the highest-end equipment indefinitely, without the need for any developer-provided "end game". So long as there is new Foundry content to play.
Hm. I think you and I have very different mindsets when it comes to gameplay. And while there's no telling for sure until I actually play the game, I can definitely see myself playing a level-capped character with all the highest-end equipment indefinitely, without the need for any developer-provided "end game". So long as there is new Foundry content to play.
It still makes loot and XP irrelevant ... which was my main point.
I was arguing for allowing foundry developers complete freedom (scripting, monster/loot placement, etc) in exchange for simply not handing out loot/XP which persisted in the real game.
Though it might persist in adventures, it could work like http cookies ... with the adventure checking for loot-cookies and granting items at the discretion of the developer when you enter his adventure.
Comments
A real solid chunk of content takes so much time that constricted tools will drive developers away ... if you want to court the people who make the really good content you have to treat them like developers, not players. Doesn't mean the tools shouldn't have a low barrier of entry, NWN2 proved that ... but if the tools provide depth the community developers can do things you didn't imagine possible, NWN1 proved that.
The lack of depth in Foundry is palpable, in fact it's a basic property of it's design intent ... Cryptic doesn't want to be surprised what people can do with it, it wants to be in complete control.
As long as that journey has lots of damsels in distress to save, plenty of magical items, and a plethora of gold to pillage.:D
We have not even seen the foundry or had anyone give a review on what the foundry can do other than what cryptic did at E3. So where do you get the information that the lack of depth in the Foundry is palpable when you have not even seen it or know anyone that has used it.
This is the kind of negative post that we do not need now. Baseless claims on unprove assumptions just to stir up people.
they have stated you can have user created content like hak paks, you cant create a huge branching campaing, you cant create PW. you cant create items, you can create creatures.
If Cryptic would have announced Neverwinter to be an MMO, then I would have been very sceptical myself as personally I think only CoH/CoV was a good MMO they made (sorry Cryptic).
Now a Co-Op RPG and a Foundry system (that's hopefully even better than the STO one) could mean that Cryptic is finally getting back on track and that we could see a good game here. I'll keep an eye on Neverwinter for sure.
I know on the STO side of things they've said that the NW Foundry has a lot of improvements that'll be making it back into the STO codebase in coming months so it definately is an improvement over the existing STO version of the Foundry.
i think the main improvement over STO is going to be able to custom made interiors with tiles instead of being stuck with prefabs.
They also stated this is not NWN3 its Neverwinter online. I want PW's based on areas in FR not some fantasy world where everyone is a dragon. Personally I do not want user created items or monsters to much to abuse for friends and to many people will include trojans and such in stuff we have to download.
Instead of saying OOOoooo the foundry is horrible and its going to fail Give thought out reasons why PW's user created content and monsters and races will help. Saying its really cool in NWN1 and 2 doesnt cut it. Explain how it will help an online game based in and around the city of Neverwinter what benifit cryptic will get from this. Saying that the NWN1 and 2 people will come here is not enough because they already will come here for the most part.
I don't know about creatures, at least at launch. Might be able to change some creatures attributes and rename it though. Specifically you can't create your own model and textures.
Sounds like they may have more base creatures though and may be open to requests. NWN1&2 shipped with the creatures needed to fill out the Single Player campaigns. Neverwinter is focused on providing the Foundry, I expect more support for creating creatures for you that you want to have.
The hak paks btw, contain these models and textures, as well as the 2das to index them and describe feats, classes, spells, etc. So I'd change your stated "they have stated you can have user created content like hak paks" to can't. That may be a confusion on how the NWNs work. You can create something like the .mod file aka module.
As far as branching campaigns, that would likely only really need a token on you that the dev could store data on, which could be accessed by subsequent modules. They might be open to that.
As far as on topic though: Sounds like from what I've seen Cryptic has a plan but want to keep agile and responsive. They have an open mind and a positive attitude. How about we do the same, eh?
- Bar
One example quoted from the STO site...
Believe there has been other functional improvements mentioned on the forums that NW has that are in the pipeline for STO but I can't find the specific posts right now (house-sitting and I could swear this computer is still on dial-up it is so amazingly slow).
Careful what word(s) you use. Until the mods learn a little bit about the differences between concept, system, and execution (spanning the different games) any word you use can roll out the lynch mob.
The DM in Neverwinter will be some kind of "adventure designer" or "builder" if you will. So your normal perception of what a DM is, is a little bit out the window here. Think computer games and how a "DM" will actually work in this game.
Not saying this is bad. I like the idea of understanding that a DM in D&D computer game is a different thing than a DM in a pen and paper adventure.
you really should check out the Foundry in STO; some missions reach and occasionally surpass what the devs have done.
While it isn't for me.
Scripting in this kind of tool for me only feel like when the developers didn't have enough time to map out all the functions in nifty menues and other.
The thing about NWN even though it lacked many oftenly used menues was that you could script and also that scripting gave you access to anything in the game that wasn't more "hardcoded". Which is...yes quite powerful. Still if there wasn't developed "script generators" which bring some kind of menu system into that I would be very handfallen myself hehe.
Anyway...to get to the point. It feels that what you are really talking about here is not about scripting system or not but if we can change fundamentals of the game...like game rules and many other things.
As we all are going to be playing in one world there HAS to be some restricting rules to how to build your adventure.
I just want things like cross mission persistent per player data, so you could grant players loot (and a history of events) which is only available inside your missions ... that way you could create a CRPG campaign out of separate missions.
It would be even nicer if there was a DM client to guide players through those campaign missions, I wouldn't care if that just disallowed all loot to carry over to the regular game and granted no XP. It would still be infinitely more interesting, both for groups of community developers AND players, than mission #<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> with no persistence of consequences other than some random loot and XP ...
A mission lasts a couple of hours at most ... if that's the only scope within a player can create then it would be like one shots every week in PnP, it won't have long lasting appeal.
Again, you are concentrating on the scripting. This is not really what is interesting and what you want. What you want is more freedom in what you can do with the design...whether it is scripting or not.
I don't know how to explain this in a good way.
It is like saying that the DOS operating system is more powerful than the WIndows 7 because in DOS you have to write (eg "script") in the commands. It is not. It is just that in Windows 7 they have taken most of the commands that you had to script before and put them in a "button" in a menu somewhere.
Hmm...so you are talking about some kind of no loot/no XP adventure. I hear you on this. I am not against it. Still, I think most wouldn't play such adventures but some maybe would...
My answer is similar to the above. Although "cute" this will turn into some kind of "chat only" adventure.
Microsoft recognizes they can't foresee everything their users will want to do. Loot and XP from Foundry missions are ultimately meaningless ...
There are two options :
- The game will have end game dailies and raids, loot from foundry missions will not be comparable so irrelevant ... XP is irrelevant in end game altogether.
- The game won't have end game dailies and raids, progression is irrelevant ... you'll be rerolling every couple of months any way, after doing this once or twice the carrot and stick routine will lose it's luster. No, it would turn into games within a game.
It's great to see that it will be better than the STO one and I guess STO players will be happy ifthey get the Neverwinter features at some point in the future.
Hm. I think you and I have very different mindsets when it comes to gameplay. And while there's no telling for sure until I actually play the game, I can definitely see myself playing a level-capped character with all the highest-end equipment indefinitely, without the need for any developer-provided "end game". So long as there is new Foundry content to play.
I was arguing for allowing foundry developers complete freedom (scripting, monster/loot placement, etc) in exchange for simply not handing out loot/XP which persisted in the real game.
Though it might persist in adventures, it could work like http cookies ... with the adventure checking for loot-cookies and granting items at the discretion of the developer when you enter his adventure.